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  1. #16
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    way more black and BIPOC mutants are needed. No more excuses. it can't be just sympathetic white mutants as stand-ins.

    "The world is not white; it never was white, cannot be white. White is a metaphor for power, and that is simply a way of describing Chase Manhattan Bank."
    James Baldwin
    Cosigned. Also, great quote.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #17
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    I think since people love the X-men but get all upset that "Marvel is just pandering to the PC community" no not only are they not it, but could almost argue they failed at it.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noek View Post
    I think since people love the X-men but get all upset that "Marvel is just pandering to the PC community" no not only are they not it, but could almost argue they failed at it.
    I don't think it's a matter of failure, but that the overarching themes invoked and evoked by the X-Men franchise's ongoing narrative went completely over the heads of people who, frankly, weren't interested in learning to empathize with or relate to actual minorities and/or other marginalized people(s) in the first place. Basically, "none so blind as those who will not see."
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    Not really. It's a different case probably outside the realm of this forum. Now that you mention it, I think inhumans are closest to being a Jewish allegory (as well as other foreign cultures), with bat-mitzvahs/bar-mitzvahs being Terrigenisis, with a nation to escape persecution from humans, and people be xenophobic towards them when they are in other territories. There are also "secular" inhumans that don't practice their cultures rites, but will always be considered inhumans. I don't think Jack Kirby created them for no reason..

    If Emma Frost is supposed to represent African-Americans, the X-Men stretched their allegory to the limits to a point that it's awkward.
    Someone asked Kirby in an interview years ago if he created the Inhumans as a statement about indigenous people he said no. He just thought it'd be an interesting idea to do a family of superheroes.

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Someone asked Kirby in an interview years ago if he created the Inhumans as a statement about indigenous people he said no. He just thought it'd be an interesting idea to do a family of superheroes.
    He did a whole origins story for them about aliens coming down to Earth and tampering with primitive humans to be the missing link, and gave them all mythological names. I don't think he put all that work to make a new race to make the Incredibles.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noek View Post
    I think since people love the X-men but get all upset that "Marvel is just pandering to the PC community" no not only are they not it, but could almost argue they failed at it.
    I remember when there were homophobic comments about Iceman when they made him gay. I know it was a weird way to go about it, but the comments weren't about how they did it, and just full of homophonic slurs. It should've made no sense, but I just figured they liked him for having cool powers and fighting bad guys as opposed to learning to be tolerant and understanding towards others. The X-Men's messages were so subliminal that they mistook them for just superheroes.

    I get that they want to be "neutral" so as not to make any one group feel uncomfortable or responsible, but it feels like they miss the mark, whereas stories like Blue Marvel's were more direct.

  7. #22
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    Do the X-Men still take the place of POC, religious minorities and the LGBTQ?

    I'm all these and they have never represented me so I guess No is my answer

    I'm liking Hickman's take (simply based on House of X and Powers of X) it is a POV i share than the BS about allegorical representation
    Last edited by Tofali; 01-18-2021 at 08:02 PM.

  8. #23
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    the x-men take the place of STARS and SUCESS

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    He did a whole origins story for them about aliens coming down to Earth and tampering with primitive humans to be the missing link, and gave them all mythological names. I don't think he put all that work to make a new race to make the Incredibles.
    He didn't make them The Incredibles, he made them the royal family of a race of super beings.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    It's very apparent this silly notion is wholeheartedly believed, and embraced by 99% of 5he editors and writers by simply looking at who they care about writing. To answer the OP's question with a question. Does white still represent American Patroit?

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    I remember when there were homophobic comments about Iceman when they made him gay. I know it was a weird way to go about it, but the comments weren't about how they did it, and just full of homophonic slurs. It should've made no sense, but I just figured they liked him for having cool powers and fighting bad guys as opposed to learning to be tolerant and understanding towards others. The X-Men's messages were so subliminal that they mistook them for just superheroes.

    I get that they want to be "neutral" so as not to make any one group feel uncomfortable or responsible, but it feels like they miss the mark, whereas stories like Blue Marvel's were more direct.
    I think that's superheroes in general with a certain type of reader/"fan," the kind that's just in it for the power fantasy and couldn't care less about the morals imparted --- or attempting to be imparted --- which is a shame because one would think that superhero stories would inspire people to be decent at bare minimum.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    It's very apparent this silly notion is wholeheartedly believed, and embraced by 99% of 5he editors and writers by simply looking at who they care about writing. To answer the OP's question with a question. Does white still represent American Patroit?
    After what's happened this month so far in real life . . . there definitely needs to be more soul-searching and reexamination on the part of not just mainstream superhero media giants, but popular media in general, about exactly who and what they choose to prop up as heroes or heroic and how that impacts the overarching perception and treatment of certain (kinds of) people in reality.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    The X-Men have been known for being replacements/an allegory for the struggles of people of color, religious minorities and the LGBTQ+ community. They were made at a time that didn't have these groups represented in media, so it was easier to related to superhuman being than the actual members of the aforementioned communities. Fast forward to the present and we have Blue Marvel, Ms. Marvel Miles Morales, and more.

    With the current status quo at Marvel and its changes, like with the Eternals, should we consider actual Marvel Universe minorities representations of their stories, or should Marvel still use the X-Men as avatars for under represented groups of society as an indirect way of telling their stories?
    false premise. they never did.

    the only group the mutants work as an analog for is the LGBTQA diaspora. No other group's experience matches.

  13. #28
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    I think this allegory is being pushed too far. Yes, the X-men had an allegorical connection to the civil rights movement, and that was intentional in its creation. But as far as being stand-ins for POC or LGBT groups, I don't think that was ever the goal. It was a real world issue that fit well in the world of superhero comic books.

    I don't think Stan Lee or Jack Kirby were thinking about "representation" the way we are talking about here.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    false premise. they never did.

    the only group the mutants work as an analog for is the LGBTQA diaspora. No other group's experience matches.
    That is not necessarily true Nightcrawler, Anole, Morlocks and every freaky looking mutant matches the experience of minorities pretty well. Generally I agree with your assessment especially when they roll out Havok or Dazzler as the face of oppressed people in the story and it is kinda funny but the mutants who can't hide they are mutants very much match the experience of a racial minority.

    As for the topic I think they should use both. An analogy sometime works better with some crowds for example you can use a transperson in a story and I guarantee just like in real life a group of people won't care but if you Wolfsbane as trans metaphor (and actually do it well) the person who is resistant at an out right example can feel sympathy with an analogy /stand in and later when it revealed to them what is story represents they can get the point. While I would rather see some obvious minority representation more there is a place for a stand in as well.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 01-18-2021 at 11:51 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliasmachado View Post
    Well, as a black and gay person, I can identify more with mutants, due to the prejudice they suffer, than with any other hero just because of the color of their skin. If one day they start telling stories of a group of totally black or gay heroes, saving a world that fears and hates them for being who they are, maybe I can identify myself.
    Marvel has numerous black heroes and are gaining steam on LGBT heroes. Three of them have tv shows being produced on Disney+.

    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ma...20200112032702

    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ma...20201208105219

    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ma...20201003183722

    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ma...20191209183158

    https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fand...ki/Alex_Wilder

    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ma...20190423174940

    And there's Mile Morales. Had a hit movie, getting a sequel and spin-offs.

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