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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    I think that's superheroes in general with a certain type of reader/"fan," the kind that's just in it for the power fantasy and couldn't care less about the morals imparted --- or attempting to be imparted --- which is a shame because one would think that superhero stories would inspire people to be decent at bare minimum.
    Nowadays, I don’t see the preoccupation of a story being moral… I see more complacency. But before, when I was a child, all comic stories were moral… which is usually the case in mainstream media that are movies.

    I never see the X-men as a metaphor for minorities. Their difficulty to adjust to the society around them is a feeling that can shared by a lot of people… It was easy to identify to them.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Nowadays, I don’t see the preoccupation of a story being moral… I see more complacency. But before, when I was a child, all comic stories were moral… which is usually the case in mainstream media that are movies.

    I never see the X-men as a metaphor for minorities. Their difficulty to adjust to the society around them is a feeling that can shared by a lot of people… It was easy to identify to them.
    What do you mean by complacency?

  3. #33
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    It depends on who is the writer at the time.
    As for are they a good representation? Well I can't really say as I'm not a POC, a religious minority or part of the LGBTQ community, but I do feel it changes for different People and different experiences.
    I've seen some folks who don't feel mutants represent them while others have felt that Cyclops speaks to them. Both are just as viable, they just have different views and life experiences.
    The question shouldn't be do they take the place, but can they?

    And I or anyone else shouldn't diminish if someone does feel connected to them.
    I feel there is a place for Mutants to be an allegory for political stand ins and have other characters also tackle such issues.
    Ms Marvel, Miles Morales, they can also stand in for such topics and themes.
    The fact there's an audience that connects more with Miles than they do with Parker says something. Personally, I find it kind of beautiful that People feel they are being represented there.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What do you mean by complacency?
    Gleeful displays of vengeance. It’s a opportunity to display violence with the excuse that it is a fair act. It trivializes the psychic impact on an author of violence and removes any remorse in the reader to feel joy at seeing someone suffering.

  5. #35
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    It's true that mutants can be good representation for marginalised groups how they do it can be problematic, like how vampires are metaphors for being gay in True Blood. Half the time when the vampires are on screen it proves that people are right to be scared because those vampire swill happily kill and eat you and your loved ones. For example:



    Am I supposed to care about Russell being persecuted after that? He's a wonderful character, but damn. And he's far from being alone in the True Blood vampire community doing things like this, they just do it in secret rather than broadcasting to the world.

    There are mutant villains in Marvel who make Russell look like a pussy cat. And the reason the X-men were formed? To stop there mutant Russell's from conquering the world, or destroying the world. Which keeps on being forgotten. By making these characters do evil it makes it far more difficult to watch them be sympathetic the they do things any ordinary human would be aghast at because they're next when they go on a rampage. This includes attacks on organisations like the United Nations, and global threats against the entire world which endanger billions.

    They really need to tone down how evil the mutant villains were and stop having them do unforgivable things again and again. Why would anyone trust them? It also reinforces negative stereotypes of marginalised groups by making the humans who hate mutants have a point. Why wouldn't a human who lost their family to the Brotherhood's recent attack on New York City go down that road of join hate group? And why aren't the X-men trying to examine that and try to stop people falling into that trap which the mutant community don't really seem to care unless one of their own is being attacked? It's also strange how bad the mutant community react to other races, human and otherwise, get genocided and persecuted and don't really spent much time thinking about it or helping. It makes them come off as selfish jerks who are only interested in stopping concentration camps where they're the ones in danger. But Inhumans? Go right ahead, they won't offer any resistance.

    As swell as the fact what mutants represent changes depending on the character and context. The message gets muddled. They could be a metaphor for various groups or none of them, they're just evil people who will kill or enslave your loved ones and don't have any remorse and never, every get any justice for their actions - especially in Krakoa. Krakoa's a paradise for the mutant villains, the only one who was really punished was Sabretooth, it's that or be on Sinister's Suicide Squad - who's only being "monitored" by Kwannon and in a match between between her and Sinister who do think is going to win? spoilers:
    He's already killed her and the rest of the "squad" once in a scheme and nobody's putting him in the Pit.
    end of spoilers Sure, the X-men might stop them but more often then not they become "friends" and allies down the line and this includes when they do this to those very same X-men.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member ChronoRogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    That is not necessarily true Nightcrawler, Anole, Morlocks and every freaky looking mutant matches the experience of minorities pretty well. Generally I agree with your assessment especially when they roll out Havok or Dazzler as the face of oppressed people in the story and it is kinda funny but the mutants who can't hide they are mutants very much match the experience of a racial minority.

    As for the topic I think they should use both. An analogy sometime works better with some crowds for example you can use a transperson in a story and I guarantee just like in real life a group of people won't care but if you Wolfsbane as trans metaphor (and actually do it well) the person who is resistant at an out right example can feel sympathy with an analogy /stand in and later when it revealed to them what is story represents they can get the point. While I would rather see some obvious minority representation more there is a place for a stand in as well.
    This. The mutant metaphor works because it's "safe" and is so versatile it can be used on a wide variety of minority groups; or just the feeling of being an outgroup. It's why they are my favorite superhero group.

    That said, they don't and should not be used interchangeably with real representation of minority groups. Fortunately there is nothing stopping Marvel from doing both, as they should.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    I know all these characters exist, but I don't identify with any of them in the same way that I identify with mutants.

    The amount of hatred they receive both in comics and in real life is much more comparable to the oppression I have ever suffered in life. But anyway, that is my point of view.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    It's true that mutants can be good representation for marginalised groups how they do it can be problematic, like how vampires are metaphors for being gay in True Blood. Half the time when the vampires are on screen it proves that people are right to be scared because those vampire swill happily kill and eat you and your loved ones. For example:



    Am I supposed to care about Russell being persecuted after that? He's a wonderful character, but damn. And he's far from being alone in the True Blood vampire community doing things like this, they just do it in secret rather than broadcasting to the world.

    There are mutant villains in Marvel who make Russell look like a pussy cat. And the reason the X-men were formed? To stop there mutant Russell's from conquering the world, or destroying the world. Which keeps on being forgotten. By making these characters do evil it makes it far more difficult to watch them be sympathetic the they do things any ordinary human would be aghast at because they're next when they go on a rampage. This includes attacks on organisations like the United Nations, and global threats against the entire world which endanger billions.

    They really need to tone down how evil the mutant villains were and stop having them do unforgivable things again and again. Why would anyone trust them? It also reinforces negative stereotypes of marginalised groups by making the humans who hate mutants have a point. Why wouldn't a human who lost their family to the Brotherhood's recent attack on New York City go down that road of join hate group? And why aren't the X-men trying to examine that and try to stop people falling into that trap which the mutant community don't really seem to care unless one of their own is being attacked? It's also strange how bad the mutant community react to other races, human and otherwise, get genocided and persecuted and don't really spent much time thinking about it or helping. It makes them come off as selfish jerks who are only interested in stopping concentration camps where they're the ones in danger. But Inhumans? Go right ahead, they won't offer any resistance.

    As swell as the fact what mutants represent changes depending on the character and context. The message gets muddled. They could be a metaphor for various groups or none of them, they're just evil people who will kill or enslave your loved ones and don't have any remorse and never, every get any justice for their actions - especially in Krakoa. Krakoa's a paradise for the mutant villains, the only one who was really punished was Sabretooth, it's that or be on Sinister's Suicide Squad - who's only being "monitored" by Kwannon and in a match between between her and Sinister who do think is going to win? spoilers:
    He's already killed her and the rest of the "squad" once in a scheme and nobody's putting him in the Pit.
    end of spoilers Sure, the X-men might stop them but more often then not they become "friends" and allies down the line and this includes when they do this to those very same X-men.
    It’s the reason why the X-men cannot take the place of POC and so on…
    What characterized the X-men was their strength of character, their kindness, their courage not their weirdness. When the mutant can represent the other which isn’t particularly good or bad, the X-men represented the other in a flattering manner: they were pretty, they were talented, they were kind… And, frankly, I didn’t really notice that Nightcrawler had hands with three digits nor I cared…

  9. #39
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    Thanks to the ever escalation of circular storytelling, the X-Men are currently very hard sci-fi. Though perhaps people can relate to the fantasy of being able to escape persecution through the island of Krakoa?

    I feel like Marvel should have enough minority characters to not have a need of metaphors in the first place anymore in the first place?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    It's true that mutants can be good representation for marginalised groups how they do it can be problematic, like how vampires are metaphors for being gay in True Blood. Half the time when the vampires are on screen it proves that people are right to be scared because those vampire swill happily kill and eat you and your loved ones. For example:

    Am I supposed to care about Russell being persecuted after that? He's a wonderful character, but damn. And he's far from being alone in the True Blood vampire community doing things like this, they just do it in secret rather than broadcasting to the world.

    There are mutant villains in Marvel who make Russell look like a pussy cat. And the reason the X-men were formed? To stop there mutant Russell's from conquering the world, or destroying the world. Which keeps on being forgotten. By making these characters do evil it makes it far more difficult to watch them be sympathetic the they do things any ordinary human would be aghast at because they're next when they go on a rampage. This includes attacks on organisations like the United Nations, and global threats against the entire world which endanger billions.

    They really need to tone down how evil the mutant villains were and stop having them do unforgivable things again and again. Why would anyone trust them? It also reinforces negative stereotypes of marginalised groups by making the humans who hate mutants have a point. Why wouldn't a human who lost their family to the Brotherhood's recent attack on New York City go down that road of join hate group? And why aren't the X-men trying to examine that and try to stop people falling into that trap which the mutant community don't really seem to care unless one of their own is being attacked? It's also strange how bad the mutant community react to other races, human and otherwise, get genocided and persecuted and don't really spent much time thinking about it or helping. It makes them come off as selfish jerks who are only interested in stopping concentration camps where they're the ones in danger. But Inhumans? Go right ahead, they won't offer any resistance.

    As swell as the fact what mutants represent changes depending on the character and context. The message gets muddled. They could be a metaphor for various groups or none of them, they're just evil people who will kill or enslave your loved ones and don't have any remorse and never, every get any justice for their actions - especially in Krakoa. Krakoa's a paradise for the mutant villains, the only one who was really punished was Sabretooth, it's that or be on Sinister's Suicide Squad - who's only being "monitored" by Kwannon and in a match between between her and Sinister who do think is going to win? spoilers:
    He's already killed her and the rest of the "squad" once in a scheme and nobody's putting him in the Pit.
    end of spoilers Sure, the X-men might stop them but more often then not they become "friends" and allies down the line and this includes when they do this to those very same X-men.
    While this is hardly an invalid criticism, part of what makes a minority persecuted is that they're treated harsher for the same crimes a non-minority faces. The fact that they get singled out while there are other superpowered beings in the world is what makes them more sympathetic.

    Marvel Snapshots: Civil War did a fairly good job of illustrating this issue.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    That is not necessarily true Nightcrawler, Anole, Morlocks and every freaky looking mutant matches the experience of minorities pretty well. Generally I agree with your assessment especially when they roll out Havok or Dazzler as the face of oppressed people in the story and it is kinda funny but the mutants who can't hide they are mutants very much match the experience of a racial minority.

    As for the topic I think they should use both. An analogy sometime works better with some crowds for example you can use a transperson in a story and I guarantee just like in real life a group of people won't care but if you Wolfsbane as trans metaphor (and actually do it well) the person who is resistant at an out right example can feel sympathy with an analogy /stand in and later when it revealed to them what is story represents they can get the point. While I would rather see some obvious minority representation more there is a place for a stand in as well.
    Mutants can conceal their status (black, brown, asian, indigenous people can't)
    Mutants, for the most part, can turn their abilities on and off (meaning there's no automatic stigma attached to being a mutant. they can choose to be themselves publicly or not and sometimes they are embraced because their powers are pleasing.)
    Mutants, for the most part, are EXTREMELY attractive by normal human standards (meaning they are, more often than not, extremely socially successful even without their powers being revealed)
    Mutants have a culture they have invented for themselves which is largely hidden from non-mutants
    Mutants were never enslaved
    Mutants are not immigrants

    they certainly are not an analog for Black Americans who, even in the Marvel universe, have had and still have it much worse than the mutants ever did. And the same can be said for Brown Americans as well and Indigenous Americans. there's no comparison; all those groups exist in the marvel universe with a basically identical history to their real world counterparts.

    one size can't and doesn't fit all.

    doesn't mean they're not awesome. but they weren't designed and haven't evolved to be what so many people keep trying to pretend they are.

    The other thing that makes the mutants a poor analog for ANY marginalized group is, it's not unreasonable to fear mutants. They are actually physical threats to those around them and it makes no sense, survival-wise, that any baseline human would trust any mutant NOT to kill them or invade their mind or whatever. there'd be no way to stop them if they did.
    Last edited by Redjack; 01-19-2021 at 11:32 AM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Mutants can conceal their status (black, brown, asian, indigenous people can't)
    Mutants, for the most part, can turn their abilities on and off (meaning there's no automatic stigma attached to being a mutant. they can choose to be themselves publicly or not and sometimes they are embraced because their powers are pleasing.)
    Mutants, for the most part, are EXTREMELY attractive by normal human standards (meaning they are, more often than not, extremely socially successful even without their powers being revealed)
    Mutants have a culture they have invented for themselves which is largely hidden from non-mutants
    Mutants were never enslaved
    Mutants are not immigrants

    they certainly are not an analog for Black Americans who, even in the Marvel universe, have had and still have it much worse than the mutants ever did. And the same can be said for Brown Americans as well and Indigenous Americans. there's no comparison; all those groups exist in the marvel universe with a basically identical history to their real world counterparts.

    one size can't and doesn't fit all.

    doesn't mean they're not awesome. but they weren't designed and haven't evolved to be what so many people keep trying to pretend they are.

    The other thing that makes the mutants a poor analog for ANY marginalized group is, it's not unreasonable to fear mutants. They are actually physical threats to those around them and it makes no sense, survival-wise, that any baseline human would trust any mutant NOT to kill them or invade their mind or whatever. there'd be no way to stop them if they did.
    You've basically summarized my entire thoughts on this topic particularly as a POC.
    Black Lives Matter.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Mutants can conceal their status (black, brown, asian, indigenous people can't)
    Mutants, for the most part, can turn their abilities on and off (meaning there's no automatic stigma attached to being a mutant. they can choose to be themselves publicly or not and sometimes they are embraced because their powers are pleasing.)
    Mutants, for the most part, are EXTREMELY attractive by normal human standards (meaning they are, more often than not, extremely socially successful even without their powers being revealed)
    Mutants have a culture they have invented for themselves which is largely hidden from non-mutants
    Mutants were never enslaved
    Mutants are not immigrants

    they certainly are not an analog for Black Americans who, even in the Marvel universe, have had and still have it much worse than the mutants ever did. And the same can be said for Brown Americans as well and Indigenous Americans. there's no comparison; all those groups exist in the marvel universe with a basically identical history to their real world counterparts.

    one size can't and doesn't fit all.

    doesn't mean they're not awesome. but they weren't designed and haven't evolved to be what so many people keep trying to pretend they are.

    The other thing that makes the mutants a poor analog for ANY marginalized group is, it's not unreasonable to fear mutants. They are actually physical threats to those around them and it makes no sense, survival-wise, that any baseline human would trust any mutant NOT to kill them or invade their mind or whatever. there'd be no way to stop them if they did.
    This. As a black man I like the X-Men but I don't project anymore metaphorical or social value on their narrative than needed. They do not represent me or the experiences of my people as I see it and that's ok. But if others see the X-Men as a valid, complex allegory that's ok too. The beauty of fiction is people get what they want out of it. And that there have always and will always be alternatives to the X-Men to discuss themes of race, gender, homophobia, and more.

  14. #44
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Most of that rant was crap but at least the last paragraph was fair.
    "Cable was right!"

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Mutants can conceal their status (black, brown, asian, indigenous people can't)
    Mutants, for the most part, can turn their abilities on and off (meaning there's no automatic stigma attached to being a mutant. they can choose to be themselves publicly or not and sometimes they are embraced because their powers are pleasing.)
    Mutants, for the most part, are EXTREMELY attractive by normal human standards (meaning they are, more often than not, extremely socially successful even without their powers being revealed)
    Mutants have a culture they have invented for themselves which is largely hidden from non-mutants
    Mutants were never enslaved
    Mutants are not immigrants

    they certainly are not an analog for Black Americans who, even in the Marvel universe, have had and still have it much worse than the mutants ever did. And the same can be said for Brown Americans as well and Indigenous Americans. there's no comparison; all those groups exist in the marvel universe with a basically identical history to their real world counterparts.

    one size can't and doesn't fit all.

    doesn't mean they're not awesome. but they weren't designed and haven't evolved to be what so many people keep trying to pretend they are.

    The other thing that makes the mutants a poor analog for ANY marginalized group is, it's not unreasonable to fear mutants. They are actually physical threats to those around them and it makes no sense, survival-wise, that any baseline human would trust any mutant NOT to kill them or invade their mind or whatever. there'd be no way to stop them if they did.
    My "G", Couldn't have said it any better! 1000% concur!

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