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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldGladiator View Post
    It's a timing thing the generation that is in power now thinks of the 90's as that era they took on binge drinking so they don't care for it, it isn't their era. It is a time that things were changed from the way they always were. Ten years from now a generation will come to power that Wally was their Flash and Kyle was their GL and the only thing that will stop them from making that change is IF it appears the status quo makes consistently more $$$.
    That's incorrect. The writers and editors currently in power grew up reading comics in the 90's as many have said.

    DC is a business. The main priority is making money. Even Didio who tried to get rid of legacy characters wasn't motivated not by personal feelings. He was worried that legacy character could negatively impact the older heroes.

    DC doesn't hate any of it's characters.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    That's incorrect. The writers and editors currently in power grew up reading comics in the 90's as many have said.

    DC is a business. The main priority is making money. Even Didio who tried to get rid of legacy characters wasn't motivated not by personal feelings. He was worried that legacy character could negatively impact the older heroes.

    DC doesn't hate any of it's characters.
    Given what happened with DC under his watch, he either wasn't that motivated by negativity impacting older heroes or was gravely misinformed about what was actually hurting them.

  3. #33
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    That theory is flawed, though, in that Hal and Barry are from the generation before the 90's generation. They were brought back and made prominent at the expense of the 90's generation.
    ...but Barry and Hal were, for a time, hung out to dry so that the 90s generation could have its day in the sun. I prefer to not make a generational dispute out of this, but if we MUST have one, I believe we can now say we're even and can move on from there.

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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    ...but Barry and Hal were, for a time, hung out to dry so that the 90s generation could have its day in the sun. I prefer to not make a generational dispute out of this, but if we MUST have one, I believe we can now say we're even and can move on from there.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    I mean, if we want to play that card, Hal and Barry did it to Alan and Jay. The only difference is that Alan and Jay didn't then come back to replace Hal and Barry, which was my original point.
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  5. #35
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    The thing is, they can make proper use of both Hal and Barry and Kyle and Wally. Marvel seems to have no problem having two Spider-Men, both of which are hugely popular with the fans. DC just can't seem to get out of that mindset that it has to be one or the other without realizing they could make so much more money if they used both sets of characters to their maximum potential the way Marvel does.
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  6. #36
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    DC was pretty good in the 90s, Flash, JLI, Batman, Detective Comics, Death of Superman and the Return, JLA.

    Could have done without Supes mullet and Superman Blue

  7. #37
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avengers1986 View Post
    DC was pretty good in the 90s, Flash, JLI, Batman, Detective Comics, Death of Superman and the Return, JLA.

    Could have done without Supes mullet and Superman Blue
    I gave up on comics books for a while in '95, almost a year after Zero Hour.

    The stories all started to feel like I had read them before, and I couldn't be bothered to care any longer. (Of course, what was done to the JSA in Zero Hour probably didn't help, but that wasn't what caused me to stop buying/reading comics for a while.)

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avengers1986 View Post
    and Superman Blue
    No wonder the slogan on the cover said "Ready for the next century"
    DC was already trying to get rid of the 90s
    the extra skater
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  9. #39
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    Yeah but to be fair, whether or not it was planned that way, the whole thing ended up being an examination of '90s tropes and why, in effect, classic Batman is better than these Extreme '90s "superheroes". And neither the cover artist (Kelly Jones) nor the interior artist (the great Jim Aparo) had much to do with the '90s aesthetic - which was true of most but certainly not quite all of the DC artists at the time.
    I remember at the time (off topic here, sorry) Denny O'Neil was terrified that readers would LOVE the harder sadistic AzBats and they'd be forced to keep Bruce sidelined. As it is, they had to REALLY jump through hoops to launch an Azrael monthly....

    I don't think it's a case of DC 'hating' the 90's.

    It's more that during that time DC really leaned into the legacy theme and introduced a boatload of new characters - Kyle, Connor, Conner, Cassie, Linda Danvers etc.
    Now for the last decade or so the guy running the show had an outright disdain for all of them and mandated the originals be returned ASAP.
    By doing so, some characters, such as Wally, Donna, Dick, Garth, Roy etc. were REALLY given the outright f*** you, even though said characters were some of the best selling and/or well written books DC had on the shelves.
    I'm still amazed the amount of clout Didio had. I would've thought personal preference wouldn't enter a business model is selling stories to as many people as possible!!
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    No, I don't think so.

    They're trying to acquire new customers.

    The '90s were 30 years ago, even if you were born in the late 90's to early 00's you've already aged out of the demographic that ATT wants to get.

    They want the generation that were born in the late 00's to early 10's and in that time DC has already changed a lot; just like how Kyle, Wally, and Tim are "my" Green Lantern, Flash, and Robin so to are Hal, Barry, and Damian (I think)? for this new generation.

    It's like telling me Kyle isn't the "real" Green Lantern it's this old dude with grey temples or Robin isn't Tim but some dork called Jason.

    In ten years from now they're gonna go after the New 52 generation and so on and so forth it goes on forever.
    I get what you mean.

    Its also a bit cyclical. Back in the 2000's, there was a push to bring back the Silver Age. You had the return of Barry and Hal. Kara Zor-El back as Supergirl with a relatively more 'classic' origin. Superman started to move a bit further towards his Silver Age mythos. Hell, Morrison re-canonized a lot of Silver Age stuff for Batman...and actually pulled it off pretty well!

    A generation before that, there was a push to bring back the Golden Age, hence the revival of the JSA on Earth Two.

    So will we get to a time when Kyle and Wally become the faces of their respective franchise again? Its entirely possible IMO. Give it a decade or so, maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    I mean, if we want to play that card, Hal and Barry did it to Alan and Jay. The only difference is that Alan and Jay didn't then come back to replace Hal and Barry, which was my original point.
    There's a difference between Hal and Barry, and Alan and Jay.

    The Silver Age is pretty much the base template for the DCU as we know it. The Green Lantern and Flash franchises as we know them today are based off the Silver Age comics, regardless of who's wearing the mantle. The Golden Age heroes and the JSA, while they are respected as the originals, simply aren't the face of those franchises - they haven't been for the last 70 years!

    Kyle and Wally are successors to the mantles created by Hal and Barry respectively. Yes, there have been efforts to integrate Alan and Jay into those franchises too, and in the case of the Flash, it has been successful to an extent, with Jay being a key part of the Flash legacy. But ultimately the 'default' and classic versions of these characters are the Silver Age versions.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I get what you mean.

    Its also a bit cyclical. Back in the 2000's, there was a push to bring back the Silver Age. You had the return of Barry and Hal. Kara Zor-El back as Supergirl with a relatively more 'classic' origin. Superman started to move a bit further towards his Silver Age mythos. Hell, Morrison re-canonized a lot of Silver Age stuff for Batman...and actually pulled it off pretty well!

    A generation before that, there was a push to bring back the Golden Age, hence the revival of the JSA on Earth Two.

    So will we get to a time when Kyle and Wally become the faces of their respective franchise again? Its entirely possible IMO. Give it a decade or so, maybe.



    There's a difference between Hal and Barry, and Alan and Jay.

    The Silver Age is pretty much the base template for the DCU as we know it. The Green Lantern and Flash franchises as we know them today are based off the Silver Age comics, regardless of who's wearing the mantle. The Golden Age heroes and the JSA, while they are respected as the originals, simply aren't the face of those franchises - they haven't been for the last 70 years!
    You're looking at this in hindsight.

    There was a 12 year gap between when they stopped using Alan and began publishing books with him again. Hal straight up replaced him. All that stuff about "the franchises as we know them today" happened over time. Over decades. At the time Hal was simply Green Lantern and Alan didn't exist anymore. You know, like they did with Wally and the New 52.

    But say 5-10 years after Hal was created they brought back Alan, replaced Hal in the main book with him, and re-built the franchise around him. Would you have the franchise "as you know it today"? No. Who's to say the same couldn't have been said about Kyle and Wally if they didn't bring back Hal and Barry? Heck, half the the Flash stuff that is common in the franchise now was introduced in Wally's run but was just thrown onto Barry since he's the main Flash now.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    The thing is, they can make proper use of both Hal and Barry and Kyle and Wally. Marvel seems to have no problem having two Spider-Men, both of which are hugely popular with the fans. DC just can't seem to get out of that mindset that it has to be one or the other without realizing they could make so much more money if they used both sets of characters to their maximum potential the way Marvel does.
    But Peter is essentially the adult Spuder-Man, while Miles is teen Spider-Man.

    Wally and Kyle are both adults along with Barry and Hal.

    Then you have both Wallace and Bart and then both Jon and Kon-El as “teen Flash” and Superboy. Too many characters filling the same niche. Robins and Wondergirls too.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    But Peter is essentially the adult Spuder-Man, while Miles is teen Spider-Man.

    Wally and Kyle are both adults along with Barry and Hal.

    Then you have both Wallace and Bart and then both Jon and Kon-El as “teen Flash” and Superboy. Too many characters filling the same niche. Robins and Wondergirls too.

    It’s easier with Hal and Kyle as adult GL because we have the GLC. But we also have John, Guy, and Simon.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    You're looking at this in hindsight.

    There was a 12 year gap between when they stopped using Alan and began publishing books with him again. Hal straight up replaced him. All that stuff about "the franchises as we know them today" happened over time. Over decades. At the time Hal was simply Green Lantern and Alan didn't exist anymore. You know, like they did with Wally and the New 52.

    But say 5-10 years after Hal was created they brought back Alan, replaced Hal in the main book with him, and re-built the franchise around him. Would you have the franchise "as you know it today"? No. Who's to say the same couldn't have been said about Kyle and Wally if they didn't bring back Hal and Barry? Heck, half the the Flash stuff that is common in the franchise now was introduced in Wally's run but was just thrown onto Barry since he's the main Flash now.
    Flash can be swapped around as Wally and Barry based on the trends because they are pretty much interchangeable and to the casual observer indistinguishable in costume. Same with most of the Green Lanterns, to a point obviously the faces/heads are more exposed. Even the basics of their abilities and duties is common between them.

    The Golden Age characters are just too different from the modern versions to just swap in.

    I do not really see what you are trying to dispute here.
    Last edited by cranger; 01-22-2021 at 08:31 AM.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    Flash can be swapped around as Wally and Barry based on the trends because they are pretty much interchangeable and to the casual observer indistinguishable in costume. Same with most of the Green Lanterns, to a point obviously the faces/heads are more exposed. Even the basics of their abilities and duties is common between them.

    The Golden Age characters are just too different from the modern versions to just swap in.

    I do not really see what you are trying to dispute here.
    That the way the characters are now, as far as the entire "Space Police Force" thing as well as the Flash design, are iconic now because those versions of the character had decades to be able to build those concepts up and make them the integral part of those franchises that they are. But if Hal and Barry were treated like Kyle and Wally were, then those concepts wouldn't be the foundation of what we know the characters are now.

    Yes, if you were to just swap the originals in now it would be jarring. But if you did that 5-10 years into Hal and Barry's run, not so much.
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