Does DC hates the 90's?

[godisawesome]

On the other hand: in 2020, they were gearing up to try the “legacy heroes” thing again, in the style of “All New, All Different Marvel”: unlike the gradual replacement of heroes that had been taking place in the 90s, they were going to end Death Metal with a sudden shift in the timeline resulting in all existing heroes aged up, the original Justice League roster dead or retired, and a brand new roster of heroes (the G5 crew) having taken over. Basically, the same thing DC was trying in the 90s; but without nearly as much finesse. Fortunately, Dan Didio got canned, and the 5G plans got shelved. We still ended up getting the 5G crew; just not as mainstream replacements for the League.

In a way, you could look at Dan Didio as someone who thought that it was a mistake to replace Hal Jordan with Kylo Rayner… but NOT to do it the way Emerald Twilight had done it, and as someone who was arrogant enough to think he could do stuff like that all over the DCU at the same time.

Arguably, Emerald Twilight was far and away the worst of the 90’s mishandling of major, Big 7 properties… but I’d also argue it still showed more finesse, patience, and gravitas than Didio would allow writers to have under his reign.

And that finesse, patience, and gravitas was why so much fo the rest of the 90’s was actually covered in pretty legit and high quality work - even the early 90’s stuff. The editorial staff back then had higher standards for execution than they did their right to micromanage things, and I always look back at the 90’s as having sort of cordoned off most of the over-the-top excesses elsewhere.

[Bruce Wayne]

On the other hand: in 2020, they were gearing up to try the “legacy heroes” thing again, in the style of “All New, All Different Marvel”: unlike the gradual replacement of heroes that had been taking place in the 90s, they were going to end Death Metal with a sudden shift in the timeline resulting in all existing heroes aged up, the original Justice League roster dead or retired, and a brand new roster of heroes (the G5 crew) having taken over. Basically, the same thing DC was trying in the 90s; but without nearly as much finesse. Fortunately, Dan Didio got canned, and the 5G plans got shelved. We still ended up getting the 5G crew; just not as mainstream replacements for the League.

Didio seems to be more of a Marvel fan than a DC fan. He is very enamoured with Ultimate Marvel and Quesada's obsession with destroying marriage. I think you can definitely see the influence of ANAD Marvel along with Civil War (I think he said as much in the wordballoon podcast) and Ultimate Marvel in 5G.

In a way, you could look at Dan Didio as someone who thought that it was a mistake to replace Hal Jordan with Kylo Rayner… but NOT to do it the way Emerald Twilight had done it, and as someone who was arrogant enough to think he could do stuff like that all over the DCU at the same time.

I think it just highlights his hypocrisy. His problem in the end with Emerald Twiligh wasn't even with the execution or the underlying idea, it's just that he wasn't really involved. His excesses were worse than the DC 90s and it turned out his problem with many of the legacy characters was just that he didn't create them or had a hand in them. He was totally okay with legacies if he okayed it.

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

Most creatives have two conflicting impulses: The impulse to try to preserve their favorite eras (usually during their childhood) of their favorite characters as if they were in frozen in amber, and the impulse to try to put THEIR stamp on said favorite characters.

The X factor is the time involved in-between when they were reading said favorites and when they finally get a chance to work on said favorites. Other people have gotten the chance to work on those favorites, and said other people just might have gotten the chance to put THEIR stamps on said favorites. So, when the creatives who were fans in, say, 1985-1990 get the chance to work on those favorites in, say, 2005-2010 (just for example), they have to deal with the work others put in during 1990-2005.

Part of dealing with that in-between-eras work is asking oneself several questions:

-- Do I like that work, or do I hate it?
-- Was it reverent enough of my favorite era, or did they try to change things too much?
-- Was it just bland enough for me to ignore it, or was it successful (or infamous) enough that I have to deal with it one way or another before I start putting my own stamp on it?
-- How much of that era am I willing to respect, and how much am I hellbent on destroying or trashing?
-- And how much will editorial support what I want to do?

[godisawesome]

Didio seems to be more of a Marvel fan than a DC fan. He is very enamoured with Ultimate Marvel and Quesada's obsession with destroying marriage. I think you can definitely see the influence of ANAD Marvel along with Civil War (I think he said as much in the wordballoon podcast) and Ultimate Marvel in 5G.


I think it just highlights his hypocrisy. His problem in the end with Emerald Twiligh wasn't even with the execution or the underlying idea, it's just that he wasn't really involved. His excesses were worse than the DC 90s and it turned out his problem with many of the legacy characters was just that he didn't create them or had a hand in them. He was totally okay with legacies if he okayed it.

For a dude who clearly wanted an Ultimate-style line, he sure seemed to struggle with actually getting one going, a bit like his struggles with getting his exact preferred idea of Superman going.

We had the first All Star runs, than we had the Earth One project start up, then we moved to the New 52, then the new All Star attempt.

He clearly understood the idea of letting superstars write young versions of the classic heroes, but never seemed to stick with it long enough (All Star Superman), never seemed to enforce enough editorial oversight when he should have (ASBAR), too quick to enforce it when he shouldn’t (New 52), not published quickly enough (Earth One), and a dozen other little things.

And yeah, he was too proud of he and his dudes lording arbitrary editorial power over people as well.

It’s like the opposite of the Denny O’Neill approach on the Batman books.

[Zero Hunter]

Didio seems to be more of a Marvel fan than a DC fan. He is very enamoured with Ultimate Marvel and Quesada's obsession with destroying marriage. I think you can definitely see the influence of ANAD Marvel along with Civil War (I think he said as much in the wordballoon podcast) and Ultimate Marvel in 5G.


I think it just highlights his hypocrisy. His problem in the end with Emerald Twiligh wasn't even with the execution or the underlying idea, it's just that he wasn't really involved. His excesses were worse than the DC 90s and it turned out his problem with many of the legacy characters was just that he didn't create them or had a hand in them. He was totally okay with legacies if he okayed it.

He loved marvel so much he hired one of the worst Editors in Chief Marvel ever had in Bob Harras to run DC. Most of Harris's ideas during his tenure were just reruns of 90's Marvel ideas which were mostly awful.

[godisawesome]

He loved marvel so much he hired one of the worst Editors in Chief Marvel ever had in Bob Harras to run DC. Most of Harris's ideas during his tenure were just reruns of 90's Marvel ideas which were mostly awful.

Harris was the guy in charge of Marvel during the Clone Saga, right? While at the same time, Jenette Kahn was still editor-in-chief at DC?

I’m not an expert in Kahn, but it feels like she was really, really good overall, considering how many classics the late 80’s-90’s-early 00’s produced for DC. From what I know of the 90’s (I was born in 1990, and most of my early books were from antique malls I got in 1999-2001), it seemed like she valued writers above artists, patience and more of a cooperative relationship between group editors and their writer stables.

[Bruce Wayne]

Right I think comparative to the leadership that followed, she seemed to emphasized more priority on creators and pushed for more experienced editors like O'Neil or Berger (on Vertigo). But at the same her DC set the stage for editorial meddling like CoiE and Emerald Twilight that we saw dialed up to 13 under the guys who followed her. And a lot of the creator rights was also done under her at the same time they still screwed over Alan Moore.

He loved marvel so much he hired one of the worst Editors in Chief Marvel ever had in Bob Harras to run DC. Most of Harris's ideas during his tenure were just reruns of 90's Marvel ideas which were mostly awful.

I think that was more Jim Lee since he and Harras were pals. But Harras's problem is he brought all his old pals from Marvel including Liefeld/Chase/Nocenti/Lobdell/Mackie to DC and it seemed like in general the mark of Harras's time was trying to push his guys like Lobdell (ex. Red Hood and Ric) or Nocenti and promote Wildstorm stuff for Jim Lee. I think of the 8-9 years he was there, it's really hard to think of any examples of anything else he really did that we know about.

[married guy]

I think that was more Jim Lee since he and Harras were pals. But Harras's problem is he brought all his old pals from Marvel including Liefeld/Chase/Nocenti/Lobdell/Mackie to DC and it seemed like in general the mark of Harras's time was trying to push his guys like Lobdell (ex. Red Hood and Ric) or Nocenti and promote Wildstorm stuff for Jim Lee. I think of the 8-9 years he was there, it's really hard to think of any examples of anything else he really did that we know about.

Or anything during that time where anything he was involved with has had any positive lasting ramifications.
Harris was divisive when at Marvel and I don't think his time at DC enhanced his resume any.