Does DC hates the 90's?

[phonogram12]

But Peter is essentially the adult Spuder-Man, while Miles is teen Spider-Man.

Wally and Kyle are both adults along with Barry and Hal.

Then you have both Wallace and Bart and then both Jon and Kon-El as “teen Flash” and Superboy. Too many characters filling the same niche. Robins and Wondergirls too.

IDK, I think most fans would agree that - regardless of age - there's a vast difference between Wally and Barry and Hal and Kyle. That said, I've never minded legacy characters. I know one of DC's main beef with them is that they age the iconic one's (Batman especially), but if Keanu Reeves can still do everything he does in the John Wick movies at 56, there's no good reason Batman can't age past 40.

[extra skater]

IDK, I think most fans would agree that - regardless of age - there's a vast difference between Wally and Barry and Hal and Kyle. That said, I've never minded legacy characters. I know one of DC's main beef with them is that they age the iconic one's (Batman especially), but if Keanu Reeves can still do everything he does in the John Wick movies at 56, there's no good reason Batman can't age past 40.

Specially between Hal and Kyle or between Hal and any other Lantern, Kyle and any other Lantern.
But I still think there's more difference between those Spider-Men (and I don't like the idea, I think Miles should either be the regular Spider-Man and Peter get another identity or stay in separate universes like before) than between the four DC heroes in question.

[bat39]

You're looking at this in hindsight.

There was a 12 year gap between when they stopped using Alan and began publishing books with him again. Hal straight up replaced him. All that stuff about "the franchises as we know them today" happened over time. Over decades. At the time Hal was simply Green Lantern and Alan didn't exist anymore. You know, like they did with Wally and the New 52.

But say 5-10 years after Hal was created they brought back Alan, replaced Hal in the main book with him, and re-built the franchise around him. Would you have the franchise "as you know it today"? No. Who's to say the same couldn't have been said about Kyle and Wally if they didn't bring back Hal and Barry? Heck, half the the Flash stuff that is common in the franchise now was introduced in Wally's run but was just thrown onto Barry since he's the main Flash now.

Again its not quiet the same thing.

In the case of Hal and Barry, it was a complete reinvention of the entire character concepts, beyond the names and, to an extent, powers. Hal Jordan's Green Lantern mythos is totally different from Alan Scott's. Ditto with Barry Allen's Flash mythos and Jay Garrick's. Well, in the case of the latter, they have done a much better job integrating them into one cohesive mythos.

Everything that we know about the GL and Flash mythology/franchise today is derived from the Silver Age stories with Hal and Barry...the Golden Age stories with Alan and Jay contribute a negligible amount to these franchises as we know them today.

Kyle and Wally are derived from Hal and Barry in a way that Hal and Barry weren't from Alan and Jay. Kyle was introduced as the sole surviving member of the Green Lantern Corps after Hal went rogue and wiped them out. Wally was Barry's nephew and long-time sidekick who took over the role after the latter's death. They are both explicit successors to Hal and Barry, and to the mythos that their stories built up.

The DCU as we know it today is built up from the foundation of the Silver Age. The Justice League, and not the Justice Society, is the main superhero team. Hal and Barry are the iconic Green Lantern and Flash respectively who've inspired all their successors. 90% of the expanded Superman mythos as we know it today originally came from the Silver Age.

So even if Hal and Barry stayed dead, and Kyle and Wally remained the incumbent mantle-holders, Hal and Barry would continue to have far more influence on the respective franchises and the DCU as a whole than Alan and Jay.

[Noodle]

Again its not quiet the same thing.

In the case of Hal and Barry, it was a complete reinvention of the entire character concepts, beyond the names and, to an extent, powers. Hal Jordan's Green Lantern mythos is totally different from Alan Scott's. Ditto with Barry Allen's Flash mythos and Jay Garrick's. Well, in the case of the latter, they have done a much better job integrating them into one cohesive mythos.

Everything that we know about the GL and Flash mythology/franchise today is derived from the Silver Age stories with Hal and Barry...the Golden Age stories with Alan and Jay contribute a negligible amount to these franchises as we know them today.

Kyle and Wally are derived from Hal and Barry in a way that Hal and Barry weren't from Alan and Jay. Kyle was introduced as the sole surviving member of the Green Lantern Corps after Hal went rogue and wiped them out. Wally was Barry's nephew and long-time sidekick who took over the role after the latter's death. They are both explicit successors to Hal and Barry, and to the mythos that their stories built up.

The DCU as we know it today is built up from the foundation of the Silver Age. The Justice League, and not the Justice Society, is the main superhero team. Hal and Barry are the iconic Green Lantern and Flash respectively who've inspired all their successors. 90% of the expanded Superman mythos as we know it today originally came from the Silver Age.

So even if Hal and Barry stayed dead, and Kyle and Wally remained the incumbent mantle-holders, Hal and Barry would continue to have far more influence on the respective franchises and the DCU as a whole than Alan and Jay.

I'm not disputing that the current mythos is derived from the silver age. I completely agree with that. My argument is that the current mythos is the current mythos because it was allowed to grow over time into that mythos.

If "Flash of Two Worlds" happened and Jay went back to being the main Flash from then onward we wouldn't have what we have today because it would have cut Barry off at the feet (for lack of a better phrase). That's what happened to the 90's generation. In Barry's case, everything in the mythos Wally did build (like the Speed Force) was taken from him, given to Barry, and then he was deleted from existence for half a decade.

[LAWtoyoto 432]

i think it was this absolute comics podcast (but not 100% sure it may be the comicstorisn one)

Tynion once says that they were originally gonna put red hood on Rebirth Detective but tynion wanted tim. dc editorial said no because there are too many robins. only geoff johns was the only other person on the high up dc editorial that wanted tim so we got him on tec instead of Jason.

So DC just wanted to pretend like he doesn't exist? must be because of Dan Didio I guess Also I read somewhere that Geoff Johns was the person who wanted Tim to be "killed" and be somewhat involved in the Mr Oz story(ie being held captive for like a year).

[Lightning63]

No, I don't think so.

They're trying to acquire new customers.

The '90s were 30 years ago, even if you were born in the late 90's to early 00's you've already aged out of the demographic that ATT wants to get.

They want the generation that were born in the late 00's to early 10's and in that time DC has already changed a lot; just like how Kyle, Wally, and Tim are "my" Green Lantern, Flash, and Robin so to are Hal, Barry, and Damian (I think)? for this new generation.

It's like telling me Kyle isn't the "real" Green Lantern it's this old dude with grey temples or Robin isn't Tim but some dork called Jason.

In ten years from now they're gonna go after the New 52 generation and so on and so forth it goes on forever.

I'm 16 and my Lantern/Flash/Robin is Jess, Barry and Damian. I love DC when it explores its legacy characters like rebirth Green Lanterns and Superman.

IDK, I think most fans would agree that - regardless of age - there's a vast difference between Wally and Barry and Hal and Kyle. That said, I've never minded legacy characters. I know one of DC's main beef with them is that they age the iconic one's (Batman especially), but if Keanu Reeves can still do everything he does in the John Wick movies at 56, there's no good reason Batman can't age past 40.

They could easily age Batman up to 55 before worrying about him being too old.

That could put the ages at

Bruce - 55

Dick - 40

Jason - 35ish

Tim - 25-30

Damian - 16-18

[LAWtoyoto 432]

DC's Titans is basically DC's X-Men, both of the brands are serve as a punching bag/death target from the big two. Then everything changes when our saviour Jonathan Hickman saves the X-Men franchise by creating the " House of X/ Power of X". Let's hope DC's Titans could have their own " House of X" methods.

[The Darknight Detective]

I mean, if we want to play that card, Hal and Barry did it to Alan and Jay. The only difference is that Alan and Jay didn't then come back to replace Hal and Barry, which was my original point.

It's not really the same, though, since Jay and Alan had been in mothballs for years before Barry and Hal made it to print. In fact, the latter twos' success brought the originals out of retirement. No killing off the heroes or idiotic transformations into villains back then.

[The Darknight Detective]

IDK, I think most fans would agree that - regardless of age - there's a vast difference between Wally and Barry and Hal and Kyle. That said, I've never minded legacy characters. I know one of DC's main beef with them is that they age the iconic one's (Batman especially), but if Keanu Reeves can still do everything he does in the John Wick movies at 56, there's no good reason Batman can't age past 40.

Excepting the fact that you're not nearly at your peak condition when you're middle-aged compared to your twenties and thirties, of course.

[BlueRuggo]

I think Wally is way more interesting now than he was in the 90s. In the 90s, Wally's wife really dragged things down and almost all of the panels that featured his two rotten children were hokey. I was grateful when they were erased from time and horrified when DC flirted with the idea of bringing those two little snots back in Flash Forward.

I do resent the sidelining of Kyle though. There is some speculation that he is so similar to Nightwing in age, appearance, and personality that many people believe there isn't room enough for both of these sleek, sexy, raven-haired playboys to each have their own solo title at the same time. Who knows? But if you ever noticed, the two RARELY ever meet. There are only like two occasions in all history where the two are even in the same room, and I believe that is no accident. Just look at the last Titans run, where Kyle immediately appears right as Dick is leaving.

[Zero Hunter]

I would love to see a mini series centering on 90's characters. Set it on it's own Earth where Superman didn't come back after his fight with Doomsday and Gotham never recovered from No Man's Land so Superman and Batman are not there to hog the spotlight. Also Hal is still Parralex and Barry does not come back. See more a focus on Kyle and Wally and other characters from the 90's like Starman (Will Payton) and the Ray. Supergirl would still be Matrix and Conner has done his best to fill the role of Superman.

[SuperX]

I would love to see a mini series centering on 90's characters. Set it on it's own Earth where Superman didn't come back after his fight with Doomsday and Gotham never recovered from No Man's Land so Superman and Batman are not there to hog the spotlight. Also Hal is still Parralex and Barry does not come back. See more a focus on Kyle and Wally and other characters from the 90's like Starman (Will Payton) and the Ray. Supergirl would still be Matrix and Conner has done his best to fill the role of Superman.

I would read that for sure. 90s were great times reading comics for me

[LAWtoyoto 432]

THIS.

Wally, Kyle, Cassandra, Steel, Shazam, Tim and others SOLD. They made DC MONEY.

You don't RUIN what made you money because you want certain folks in the forefront. You make it work together.

Don't say DC likes Money and dead properties like Sugar & Spice can get tossed in a book. While Jaime Reyes is nowhere to be seen. While folks like Vixen are on tv shows and get DENIED stuff.

DC was a fanboy paradise. Now it's trying to be a business. Problem is after Batman-what do you got? Because everyone else is struggling because of previous behaviors.

See, this is the "ROOT OF THE PROBLEMS."

[John Venus]

I would love to see a mini series centering on 90's characters. Set it on it's own Earth where Superman didn't come back after his fight with Doomsday and Gotham never recovered from No Man's Land so Superman and Batman are not there to hog the spotlight. Also Hal is still Parralex and Barry does not come back. See more a focus on Kyle and Wally and other characters from the 90's like Starman (Will Payton) and the Ray. Supergirl would still be Matrix and Conner has done his best to fill the role of Superman.

Yeah, this. I think there is a huge potential in a second Earth-2 type universe where Dick's Titans generations are old men and their kids are a all teenagers or young adults who are now taking over.

[godisawesome]

That's incorrect. The writers and editors currently in power grew up reading comics in the 90's as many have said.

DC is a business. The main priority is making money. Even Didio who tried to get rid of legacy characters wasn't motivated not by personal feelings. He was worried that legacy character could negatively impact the older heroes.

DC doesn't hate any of it's characters.

I think that’s the truth of how Didio saw it, but it still seems to be very much the product of an echo chamber feeding itself rather than observing actual market trends and capacity.

The Bat books and Green Lantern book, both showed that as long as you had a strong stable of writers, you could have massive amounts of generational overlap and “legacy characters”, and with the Bat books that you don’t even need to worry about age differences that much.

And hell, half the time under Didio’s watch, new legacy characters succeeded in raking in cash *without* hurting the previous characters. It’s easy to try to apply the cases of Hal and Barry in the 90s to the other Silver Age/Big 7 characters, but legacy characters and spin-off babies from the 90s was never the problem during Didio’s run - it was the lack of skilled writers with consistently good editorial support.

Sure, a lot of its cyclical. But Didio arguably did a lot more damage to a lot more brands than just the 90s characters and legacy characters - so much so that I’d say he may have unintentionally disproved his theories about legacy character and generations.

I mean, it would be farcical to pretend that the Big 7’s books from the New 52 started having issues because of the legacy characters he felt were threats - they were problems because his editorial staff still couldn’t figure out how to handle Wonder Woman, Superman, or Flash after a while. All three fo those franchises started strong with good writers, and then Didio wasted most of their efforts with their replacements (or in the case of Superman, driving off both established big name writers and promising newcomers.)

Didio was looking for a scapegoat he could genuinely blame for how the shrinking market and his flaws as a micromanager were accelerating DC’s long term decline. I don’t doubt he thinks that new fans would be driven away by legacy character and older heroes, but I think that’s only because he told himself that often enough that not believing it now would require taking a more depressing type of look back at his work.

No one wants to be told “You could have gotten farther staying friendly with Mark Waid, Peter David, George Perez, and Andy Diggle, and by encouraging those new young writers who wanted shots at the younger characters, than you did by dedicating multiple crisis events to trying to wipe-out legacy characters.”