Does DC hates the 90's?

[scary harpy]

Greatly said.

Also, even if we're making the argument that the 90s were bad because legacy characters are too hard to adapt, that still doesn't really hold up when Marvel is about to introduce Kamala Khan and Ironheart into the MCU, and have had success spinning Miles Morales off into the mainstream.

Frankly, I dislike the notion that that any one era of comics is "bad." The stupid pouches, gratuitous blood and guts and pointless shock death stunts may be unfortunately what gets remembered about the 90s, but both Marvel and DC had some absolute gems in that decade. Morrison's JLA, Kevin Smith on Daredevil, Priest's Black Panther, Peter David's Hulk, Milestone, Waid's Flash run and of course, as has already been mentioned, Starman.

Let's not gloss over that so quickly...

Grimdark was King in the 90s.

Death and mutilation were the fashion. Every writer was 'inspired' by The Dark Knight Returns and The Watchmen.

But Don't Worry about Batman and Superman...they will be just fine. (Worry if you liked other characters.)

As another poster wrote: that era was like an amusement park built over a graveyard.

[Agent Z]

Let's not gloss over that so quickly...

Grimdark was King in the 90s.

Death and mutilation were the fashion. Every writer was 'inspired' by The Dark Knight Returns and The Watchmen.

But Don't Worry about Batman and Superman...they will be just fine. (Worry if you liked other characters.)

As another poster wrote: that era was like an amusement park built over a graveyard.

Replace the 90s with the 2000s and early 2010s, and the same thing applies.

[scary harpy]

Replace the 90s with the 2000s and early 2010s, and the same thing applies.

I agree completely.

It has been a long, dark road...too long, too grim.

[Dataweaver]

Let's not gloss over that so quickly...

Grimdark was King in the 90s.

Death and mutilation were the fashion. Every writer was 'inspired' by The Dark Knight Returns and The Watchmen.

But Don't Worry about Batman and Superman...they will be just fine. (Worry if you liked other characters.)

As another poster wrote: that era was like an amusement park built over a graveyard.

That's not at all how I remember the late 90s. Again, Kingdom Come was a turning point, where the plot was essentially “this is the road you're going down with all these grimdark superheroes; do you really want that?” and the resolution of the climax being a resounding “no!” This was followed by a period from roughly 1996 to 2003 that wasn't full of gratuitous blood and guts and pointless shock death stunts. Frankly, the era that was “inspired” by The Dark Knight Returns and The Watchmen was the late 80s and early 90s.

And as someone who was deeply into reading comics in the 90s and 00s, I can tell you exactly when that changed again: April 2003, with the release of Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day. This was followed by Johns' Teen Titans and Winick's Outsiders; Peter David's Supergirl being replaced by Cir-El as Superman was sent down the road of the Future smiths; Dan Didio taking over the editorial duties of Robin and bringing about War Games; and the simultaneous desecration of the Justice League in Identity Crisis. By the time we got to Infinite Crisis, the Golden Age Superman was declaring that the DCU needed to be wiped out and replaced, while Superboy Prime was running around knocking peoples' heads into orbit. And these are the people claiming that the DCU was too grimdark.

The grimdark that had receded in the late 90s was back in full force, and would come to dominate the rest of the 00s and the 10s. I would argue that even today, it's not gone: Infinite Frontier began with the slaughter of the Quintessence, as well as a culling of Gotham's insane asylum.

[The Darknight Detective]

As long as the market caters essentially to adults (which went into overdrive in the '90s, BTW), then you can expect some grimdark storylines as long as that is the status quo.

[scary harpy]

That's not at all how I remember the late 90s. Again, Kingdom Come was a turning point, where the plot was essentially “this is the road you're going down with all these grimdark superheroes; do you really want that?” and the resolution of the climax being a resounding “no!” This was followed by a period from roughly 1996 to 2003 that wasn't full of gratuitous blood and guts and pointless shock death stunts. Frankly, the era that was “inspired” by The Dark Knight Returns and The Watchmen was the late 80s and early 90s.

And as someone who was deeply into reading comics in the 90s and 00s, I can tell you exactly when that changed again: April 2003, with the release of Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day. This was followed by Johns' Teen Titans and Winick's Outsiders; Peter David's Supergirl being replaced by Cir-El as Superman was sent down the road of the Future smiths; Dan Didio taking over the editorial duties of Robin and bringing about War Games; and the simultaneous desecration of the Justice League in Identity Crisis. By the time we got to Infinite Crisis, the Golden Age Superman was declaring that the DCU needed to be wiped out and replaced, while Superboy Prime was running around knocking peoples' heads into orbit. And these are the people claiming that the DCU was too grimdark.

The grimdark that had receded in the late 90s was back in full force, and would come to dominate the rest of the 00s and the 10s. I would argue that even today, it's not gone: Infinite Frontier began with the slaughter of the Quintessence, as well as a culling of Gotham's insane asylum.

I don't see anyone disagreeing with you.

Your 'grimdark' timeline:

• 80s late
• 90s early
• brief respite 1996 - 2003
• 00s mid-ish
• 10s all
• today: not gone

yeah, that seems about right.

[Dataweaver]

To be fair, the “brief respite” was nearly a full decade (1996 to 2003); and it was fully half of the 90s. So saying that the 90s and the 00s were dominated by “grimdark” does this period of time a disservice, by implying that the early 90s matter more than the late 90s.

Anyway: while I mentioned before a less shallow version of Morrison's “The Just” as a way to feature a 90s-based Earth, my personal preference would be to use the notion of Doomsday Clock's archival Earths, with the aforementioned Graduation Day as the divergence point. Note only is that when the “brief respite” went off the rails, but it's also a time travel story; so it fits the notion that “someone messed with the timeline, and an alternate Earth was born to preserve the former timeline”. Rewind to February of 2003 (because much of March was authors wrapping up their titles in preparation for the imminent changes), and progress from there in the spirit of continuing what had come before.

[MajorHoy]

. . . By the time we got to Infinite Crisis, the Golden Age Superman was declaring that the DCU needed to be wiped out and replaced, while Superboy Prime was running around knocking peoples' heads into orbit . . .

I think it was only one head that went flying, and I don't think it left the Earth's atmosphere.

Also don't forget the rooftop snipers just picking off the Bloodlines heroes and a few others, not to mention what Deathstroke did to Dee Tyler​.

[scary harpy]

To be fair, the “brief respite” was nearly a full decade (1996 to 2003); and it was fully half of the 90s. So saying that the 90s and the 00s were dominated by “grimdark” does this period of time a disservice, by implying that the early 90s matter more than the late 90s.

Anyway: while I mentioned before a less shallow version of Morrison's “The Just” as a way to feature a 90s-based Earth, my personal preference would be to use the notion of Doomsday Clock's archival Earths, with the aforementioned Graduation Day as the divergence point. Note only is that when the “brief respite” went off the rails, but it's also a time travel story; so it fits the notion that “someone messed with the timeline, and an alternate Earth was born to preserve the former timeline”. Rewind to February of 2003 (because much of March was authors wrapping up their titles in preparation for the imminent changes), and progress from there in the spirit of continuing what had come before.

To be fair:

80s ≈ 04 yrs
90s ≈ 06 yrs
1996 to 2003 ≈ 7 yrs
00s ≈ 07 yrs
10s = 10 yrs
20s = 02 yrs

so, out of the last 36 years...we've had an almost 7 year respite and about 29 years of grimdark...

[LAWtoyoto 432]

Someone posts about DC stuffs in the '90s.

So what I can say is that back then DC is excellent and willing to take a risk by replacing most of the League one by one with the Legacy heroes in order to accumulate the modern times. Moreover, many Legacy heroes created in the 90s have rise successful and become relevant to the DCU. Kyle Rayner, Connor Kent, Tim Drake, Wally West along with Stephanie Brown.

Fortunately, once the DC leadership has changed. Everything has evolved backward and regression. Which is why the higher-up during the 'New 52' hated 'Millennials' because they feel those heroes are going to make their heroes in their time looked old. So, they decided to get rid most of the legacy heroes and keep the Silver Age Nostalgia around while falling behind Marvel by the time they introduced legacy heroes like 'Miles Morales', 'Kamala Khan' along with the 'Young Avengers' to the mainstream push for the audiences.

[Dataweaver]

On the other hand: in 2020, they were gearing up to try the “legacy heroes” thing again, in the style of “All New, All Different Marvel”: unlike the gradual replacement of heroes that had been taking place in the 90s, they were going to end Death Metal with a sudden shift in the timeline resulting in all existing heroes aged up, the original Justice League roster dead or retired, and a brand new roster of heroes (the G5 crew) having taken over. Basically, the same thing DC was trying in the 90s; but without nearly as much finesse. Fortunately, Dan Didio got canned, and the 5G plans got shelved. We still ended up getting the 5G crew; just not as mainstream replacements for the League.

[Stanlos]

Yes. They are doing everything in their power to prop up Hal, Barry. Wally and Kyle were a threat to that so they have to degrade them. Conner gets in the way of the new shiny toy that is Jon so he needs to be dealt with. Connor Hawke likely would become popular nowadays and they dont want Oliver to have kids so forget about him.

There is that word threat again in a discussion of Green Lantern Corps. But this time from the other side, it seems. What does it mean here? I don't understand how the Hal one "threatens" the Kyle one or how the John one "threatens" the Hal. Am I getting lost in the word meanings?

[Lee Stone]

They didn't care much for the '80s either, btw, which is when the Baxter books reigned over everything until The Dark Knight Returns came out and started Batman's rise to dominance.

[skyvolt2000]

There is that word threat again in a discussion of Green Lantern Corps. But this time from the other side, it seems. What does it mean here? I don't understand how the Hal one "threatens" the Kyle one or how the John one "threatens" the Hal. Am I getting lost in the word meanings?

It boils down to usage and removing competition.

You put them in badly done books. See T'Challa at Marvel.
You hire writes who hate the character-see T'Challa.
You restrict access to them by writers. See the Inhumans.
You get a writer to write them out-see Jason Rusch.
You erase them-see Stephanie Brown and Cass and Wally.
You replace them with a racist stereotype-Wallace West.
You remove them from a book see Spectrum at Marvel.
You have editors AX books in SPITE of sales-Green Lantern Mosaic, Lost Army and so on.

Why is it done???

Because for those gate keepers-they feel like you SHOULD only be a fan of those franchise because of Hal, Barry and so on.

And they are willing to alienate as many folks as they can to do so.

And forfeit sales as well.

When they don't have to.

[bat39]

For all the talk about DC hating the 90's, it's pretty interesting just how much the 90's have influenced many of the live-action films of the past decade or so.

BvS was partially based on Death of Superman. The Long Halloween has inspired not one but two of the most successful Batman films of all time - TDK and The Batman. Knightfall and No Man's Land were massive inspirations for TDKR. Black Adam was inspired by the JSA World War III arc which came out at the fag end of the 90's, and the Rock's version of Black Adam was inspired by the one introduced in The Power of Shazam in the 90's. Jason Momoa's Aquaman may be his own thing, and the plots might be more New 52 inspired than anything else, but his overall look and demeanor is heavily inspired by Peter David's 90's Aquaman run.