Cyttorak vs Odin

[Iz_dabz]

I will come back when I get home guys, so I can use the pc to post scans. The phone is not letting me ffs.

[Sharpandpointies]

So, I've found the issue where Cyttorak threatens to destroy the other entities upon whom Strange calls.

Dr. Strange 49, war of the seven spheres.

In it, Strange is called upon by all of the various entities from whom he gets power to participate in a war on their behalf. It'll only take 5000 years or so. Naturally, he refuses, especially because each of them wants him to fight for THEM, helping them against the others.

Strange says no, and a brawl breaks out as the entities battle both him and each other.

At some point, Cyttorak SAYS 'I'll destroy you all if I must!'

That's it. He doesn't frighten all of them. He doesn't destroy all of them. He basically states that he'll destroy all of them. There is NO indication he can.

Here.

Cyttorak1.jpg

This is not at all proof Cytorrak is above any of these entities.

The ONLY thing Cytorrak does is crack the Shield of the Seraphim...the shield that STRANGE conjures, not the Seraphim himself (so he's calling upon their power as he normally does, it's not them using their full power to shield him).

[Iz_dabz]

I will post scans when I get home guys, I’m on my phone and it not letting me ffs..

[Nik Hasta]

I feel like Dr Strange comics have a high percentage of narrative hyperbole compared to other comics.

A lot of tall people in big hats pontificating on their own significance in there haha.

[Iz_dabz]

Yes ty that is the scan buddy. But cyttorak is the only one who claims he can take all of them at the same time and destroy them. And he was going to do it. The only reason he didn’t it because dr strange renounce them. He didn’t want to invoke any of them and wanted to leave. If Dr strange would have chosen a side, cyttorak was going to destroy all.

[Sharpandpointies]

No it was pretty clear living tribunal was the supreme judge of all creation at the time.

Except he needed to use the Incantation of Oblivion to destroy a planet, and that was considered a Big Deal back then. Which is...nothing compared to what he shows later.

And Dormammu and eternity destroyed each other for a while.

Dormammu did not destroy Eternity. Dormammu throw his most powerful spell in Eternity's face. It makes a big explosion. Dormammu gets wrecked by his own spell (brilliant idea). Nightmare later claims to have found Eternity floating unconscious, a claim disputed by Eternity himself who basically says "No, I let you imprison me Nightmare because I didn't give a crap", essentially trolling Nightmare.

And umar is pretty much equal to Dormammu.

She isn't. Explicitly.

And zom is more powerful than 12 umars. And it took the living tribunal to banish zom. So it pretty clear, that living tribunal in that era, is still the same one of the current. Supreme judge of the multiverse of toaa.

Except his power at that time is never demonstrated as such.

So yea, cyttorak crak a shield that living tribunal uses for protection. And he also invoke power from raggaddoorr and cyttorak was going to destroy him and other magical entities including vishanti at the same time.

Except it wasn't a shield, it was the Sign of the Seraphim. And the LT was invoking power from Entities rather than, you know, 'raising his hand and obliterating a universe', which he does now, because he's later depicted as being far, far more powerful than in his first appearance.

The current Living Tribunal wouldn't bother with such things.

And again, scan posted, Cyttorak was not 'about to destroy anyone', he was talking smack in a middle of a fight. If he were powerful enough to destroy all of the other entities, he wouldn't have needed Strange's help, which is what they were all fighting over.

I'm seeing a lot of distortion of events, here.

[Sharpandpointies]

Yes ty that is the scan buddy. But cyttorak is the only one who claims he can take all of them at the same time and destroy them. And he was going to do it. The only reason he didn’t it because dr strange renounce them. He didn’t want to invoke any of them and wanted to leave. If Dr strange would have chosen a side, cyttorak was going to destroy all.

We don't take statements from guys talking smack in the middle of fights as evidence. Please read the rules.

I'm off for a bit.

[Nik Hasta]

We don't take statements from guys talking smack in the middle of fights as evidence. Please read the rules.

I'm off for a bit.

Link to said rules for the edification of Iz_dabz.

[Iz_dabz]

Srry. But he crack the shield tribunal uses for protection. And why would cyttorak talk smack. Everything he says is pretty much what gonna happen. Why would he lie. He has no reason to. He isn’t talking smack. He is angry. He is saying if dr strange choose any of those magical diety except him, that he will destroy. And I believe him. Because he crack shield living tribunal use for protection. And he was going to destroy raggaddorr himself. So that good enough for me. Plus Odin cannot even beat Galactus. And Agamotto alone can kill him. He was going to until oshtur and hoggoth interrupted the fight.

[Guy1]

So, I've found the issue where Cyttorak threatens to destroy the other entities upon whom Strange calls.

Dr. Strange 49, war of the seven spheres.

In it, Strange is called upon by all of the various entities from whom he gets power to participate in a war on their behalf. It'll only take 5000 years or so. Naturally, he refuses, especially because each of them wants him to fight for THEM, helping them against the others.

Strange says no, and a brawl breaks out as the entities battle both him and each other.

At some point, Cyttorak SAYS 'I'll destroy you all if I must!'

That's it. He doesn't frighten all of them. He doesn't destroy all of them. He basically states that he'll destroy all of them. There is NO indication he can.

Here.

Cyttorak1.jpg

This is not at all proof Cytorrak is above any of these entities.

The ONLY thing Cytorrak does is crack the Shield of the Seraphim...the shield that STRANGE conjures, not the Seraphim himself (so he's calling upon their power as he normally does, it's not them using their full power to shield him).

The exact line is: I'll Destroy You All If Need Be!

I'm sorry, but we can't really take that as fact. It happens in DBZ all the time. Just yelling that you're going to destroy someone doesn't always mean that you'll automatically win. Statements aren't feats. There's no doubt that Cytorrak is powerful but I don't see him as being on the level of soloing all the other Gods.

Furthermore, we generally take the Big LT at his highest God power. That means his later appearances where he can shut down the IG and such.

If you're going to say that a character is stronger than another you need to show the feats.

Now then, does anybody have scans of the rest of the above fight so we can see how that whole thing turned out and judge from there?

[Guy1]

RULES/STANDARD FIGHT SETTINGS


In most cases, the poster who originally set up the versus fight determines the conditions of the fight itself. However, in the cases where the original poster did not set down any contraints or conditions for the fight, then the match would default to the standard rules below.


01. Prep time: Neither side receives any notable prep time before the starting bell. Neither side may take any offensive or defensive actions before the starting bell. Planning is allowed and powers that are automatic or 'always on' can be up, but actions such as setting up forcefields, taking flight, or consciously activating powers is not. For example, Batman cannot shove together an 'anti-Avengers ray' before the fight.
01b. In the case of extended prep time: If you grant generic "preparation time" to a character, then that character is assumed to have access to his own resources and things he can create by himself in the allotted time. Powerstealing or other theft of the property of other characters is not allowed in standard prep time. Likewise, borrowing from teammates is not allowed as this does not reflect the character's own power. If you wish to allow this in your fight (for example: "Batman preps with the help of Superman, but then enters the arena alone".) then simply state this in your opening post.

02. Standard Equipment: Each side starts out with the equipment that they normally and have been shown to consistently carry on them. For example, Daredevil would have his billy-club, but Reed Richards would not have the Ultimate Nullifier.
In a scenario fight, the contestants in whose city/reality the fight takes place are allowed access to any material resources they usually have there or of any team they're active members of, as long as they can reasonably get to them. For example, in a scenario set in the DCU, Green Lantern would have access to equipment in the JLA Watchtower, but not the Titans headquarters.

03. Basic knowledge: Each side receives basic knowledge of the other. A good measure of this would be what the general population of the character's homeworld knows. For example, that Superman has a weakness to Kryptonite is general knowledge, but that he's Clark Kent is not.

04. Bloodlust: It is assumed that each contestant in the arena will fight to his/her best ability. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is an established fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.
04b. Bloodlust and moral codes: Bloodlust disables a character's morality regarding personal beliefs that would hinder their ability to win. Batman will use deadly force the arena if necessary.
04c. Bloodlust is not literal: While it is named bloodlust for the sake of being dramatic, Rumbles's bloodlust is simply an overwhelming desire to win, it does not turn characters into raging berserkers and render impotent those who require a sound mind.

05. Setting: The default battle area is the Arena of Khazan, a colossal arena that looks somewhat like a Roman Amphitheatre. It is typically a 250 feet by 200 feet ellipse, though the size is adjustable in accordance to the size of the contestants; the opposing sides start out about 100 feet from one another. The walls of the arena are completely indestructible, but there is no dome - space tosses are a legitimate winning strategy. Likewise the ground is simple earth and is not protected, making burying the opponent a viable strategy in some cases.

06. No outside help: Unless specified otherwise, no contestant may call for outside assistance, even in scenario matches. For example, Captain America cannot call in the Avengers during a fight with Batman. The only case in which outside help is allowed is in the case of a passive effect. For example, a cleric that draws power from his god will still have that power in the arena.
06b. In the case of a scenario taking place in a specific location, it is still assumed by default that outside help is not allowed. A fight in Marvel New York will never be interrupted by other heroes or villains, unless the opening post specifies that this is the case.

07. Leaving the field: Combatants who leave the field of combat on purpose forfeit the match. If they are removed from the arena against their will (being punched, thrown, teleported, etc.) and can make it back under their own power, then they are still in the fight. Obviously, if a combatant leaves the field and cannot return under their own power, then they have lost.

08. Temporary incapacitation: Some characters are very difficult to permanently kill. As a general rule: If a character is present in the arena but rendered unable to fight for ten seconds (if he requires that long to regenerate for example), he is considered the loser by knock-out.

RUMBLES SPECIFIC TERMS

These terms and acronyms are frequently used on Rumbles, and it would be handy for you to learn what they mean before attempting to debate.


PIS
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman. PIS is always off on the Rumbles board, this is not modifiable by the opening poster.

CIS
Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Standard CBR fights do not exempt the contestants from CIS, unless the opening poster wishes it so.

Spiderman vs. Firelord
Alternatively SvFL or SMvsFL, is a shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established career, as well as the character's opponents' established showings. In statistical terms, it is an outlier, something that is radically beyond the character's established capabilities. For example, Spiderman defeating a herald of Galactus is a case of the SvFL exemption; Val Armorr redirecting a blitzing Daximite (accurately) into another solar system is not, given his established capabilities and presentation.
For standard CBR fights, feats considered to fall under the SvFL exemption are not valid. Likewise, examples of writing which go against firmly set canon are also ignored. For example, in Larry Hama's run of Batman, Grell's run of Iron Man, and Beechen's run of Batgirl, all three characters were out of character and did things very much against established canon; therefore those runs are disregarded.


How shouldn't I debate?
"Batman can beat Thor because he's cooler!" That's an example of how not to debate. We would like to see the rationale behind any claims that one character can beat the other rather than a claim based on popularity and subjective bias.
Also, we insist that all claims be backed up by evidence from canon sources. If you claim that Spiderman is stronger than Superman, then you have to prove it.

What can't be taken for evidence in debate?
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.
Narrative hyperbole or speech hyperbole are also not considered valid evidence for a character's feats. As well, instances of PIS (plot induce stupidity - see below) and SvFL (Spiderman vs. Firelord - see below) are generally removed from consideration in standard versus debates.

What's a canon source?
A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are generally unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in our debates!).

What is narrative hyperbole?
Narrative hyperbole is when the narrator of a comic book says one thing while the action drawn on the pages clearly show something else. Sometimes, in the case of speech hyperbole, it is a character who says one thing, while the pages show differently. This does not mean the narrator or the character is always wrong. It only means that in the case of such conflict, the actual scenes overrule the narrator or character text. An example of this would be the Ten-Eyed Man, who Batman and the narrator called "the most dangerous man alive", and who was actually a very lame and low-powered character.

Quoted From Rumbles Rules.

[Slade1]

Srry. But he crack the shield tribunal uses for protection. And why would cyttorak talk smack. Everything he says is pretty much what gonna happen. Why would he lie. He has no reason to. He isn’t talking smack. He is angry. He is saying if dr strange choose any of those magical diety except him, that he will destroy. And I believe him. Because he crack shield living tribunal use for protection. And he was going to destroy raggaddorr himself. So that good enough for me. Plus Odin cannot even beat Galactus. And Agamotto alone can kill him. He was going to until oshtur and hoggoth interrupted the fight.

Again, statements are NOT feats. It doesn't matter if he was about to do it if he doesn't actually show it.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Is there any reason why Galactus couldn't just devour Agamotto's realm like he started to do with both Mephisto's and Odin's, and which he started doing to the regular 616 universe while being influenced by the Dreaming Celestial (IIRC)? The guy is basically a being who is on par with Eternity and Death, conceptually, but keeps himself at the edge of starvation due to his sense of morality/duty.

[Sharpandpointies]

So, setting aside the fact that the LT in the Strange comic is vastly weaker than the current version, let's look at the idea that he's using the shield of the Seraphim.

The shield of the seraphim creates a powerful magic shield that blocks attacks against the user (ie, a force field equivalent).

Here's the LT.

main-qimg-c6936a145fdd4eb82cdb82ba73f1e12d-c.jpg

Note that he's specifically using the SIGN of the Seraphim, and rather than creating a shield, it's a counterspell that turns Strange's spell back upon himself (this is actually what the Sign of the Seraphim - a different spell from the Shield - does).

So not only is the whole business of Strange fighting the LT not really applicable to the actual power of the LT these days, but the feat itself is being misrepresented.

[Sharpandpointies]

To continue and answer Guy1's question: What actually happens after Cyttorak brags about destroying everyone in issue 49 of Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme?

Not a lot. Here are two more pages - the next time we actually see Cyttorak in this tussle over Stephen.

RCO016_1469618011.jpg

RCO017_1469618011.jpg

As can be seen, nobody appears more impressed with Cyttorak than each other. Nor does he just bust everyone up and claim Strange, despite having said he would do that pages and pages ago.

Edit: due to the three-scan limit, I can't post the rest. One might look up the issue and see what happens, but I'll sum it up; the entities bicker (but that's about all), and then Strange says "I repudiate all of you, I refuse to serve any of you.' Consequences follow (for Strange), but nobody cowers from Cyttorak or even looks particularly concerned he'll follow through on his threat.