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  1. #1

    Default Spider-man: Spiderís shadow!

    https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...r-became-venom

    A new series of writer Chip Zdarsky and artist Pasqual Ferry of an What if? In which Spider-Man never took off the Venom symbiote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathangoop1811 View Post
    https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...r-became-venom

    A new series of writer Chip Zdarsky and artist Pasqual Ferry of an What if? In which Spider-Man never took off the Venom symbiote.
    I expect it to be good.

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    I hope that Eddie Brock doesn't become the "hero" of the story. If that happens, I'm out.

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    Spectacular Member JTHM's Avatar
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    This is like a band-aid in a bullet wound after the news of Cates' Venom ending in April. But this at least seems interesting. Title is 10 out of 10 too.

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    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Feels a little "been there, done that," but I guess I'll give Zdarsky a shot.

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    Feels like other times writers have tried making Spider-Man "evil" due to outside influence, he will beat villains to a point, but will always be a moral character eventually and "step back from the edge of the abyss" instead of going all out like someone like The Punisher.

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    Well, this wouldn't be the first time we see a story where Spider-Man "kept" the symbiote. There has been at least 3 cases previously:

    + "What If? Vol 2 #4" (October 1989): "What If... The Aien Costume had possessed Spider-Man?"
    + "What If? Vol 2 #115" (November 1998): "What If?: Secret Wars - 25 Years Later".
    + The Symbiote Spider-Man that appeared in Venomverse, from a world were Peter kept the Symbiote, and sadly ended up becoming a Poison.

    In the first What If? issue, the symbiote drained Spider-Man until leaving Peter as an old man. Peter died by accelerated old age shortly, after the symbiote left him to possess and feed on Hulk. The symbiote apparently cured Banner from the Hulk, but he tried to possess Thor later, Black Bolt used his scream to free the God of Thunder. Felicia then killed the symbiote for killing Spider-Man. On the second, Spider-Man and the symbiote literally became one, and Spider-Man was reduced to a skeleton under the symbiote.

    Since this is going to be a collection of 4 issues, we can assume Peter won't suffer that fate where the symbiote will feed on him. However, to last four issues, I believe we will see how some Spider-Stories from that time will take a different turn. I have some suspictions:

    + First of all, according to Spider-History, there are a few elements to consider. Ben Reilly is alive and on his own, although he's not Scarlet Spider yet. Kaine must be alive too, somewhere. Gwen Stacy's death already happened and Norman Osborn keeps his low profile to torment Peter for the next years.
    + We can assume this Spider-Man will turn less "friendly neighborhood" and more "lethal protector" in this story.
    + "Death of Jean DeWolff": Maybe with the symbiote, the whole thing with the Sin-Eater will change drastically. Maybe Peter will stop the Sin-Eater before he even kill Jean DeWolff, which could avoid the whole thing of Eddie Brock losing his job and going to the church to commit suicide.
    + "The Wedding": Back then, the symbiote seemed to prefer Felicia over Mary Jane; so maybe we will have THIS wedding instead. Maybe the symbiote will create a "spawn" that will bond to Felicia, similar to what happened in the bad ending of the videogame "Web of Shadows".
    + "Kraven's Last Hunt": With the symbiote, Kraven's plot will surely fail, and Kraven will die at the hands of the symbiote instead of suicide.
    + "Invasion of the Spider-Slayers": With the symbiote turning him stronger and deadlier, this plot will also fail, and Alystair Smythe will get the beating of his life.

    I have more, but I will wait for some comments to continue.

  8. #8
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Well, this wouldn't be the first time we see a story where Spider-Man "kept" the symbiote. There has been at least 3 cases previously:

    + "What If? Vol 2 #4" (October 1989): "What If... The Aien Costume had possessed Spider-Man?"
    + "What If? Vol 2 #115" (November 1998): "What If?: Secret Wars - 25 Years Later".
    + The Symbiote Spider-Man that appeared in Venomverse, from a world were Peter kept the Symbiote, and sadly ended up becoming a Poison.

    In the first What If? issue, the symbiote drained Spider-Man until leaving Peter as an old man. Peter died by accelerated old age shortly, after the symbiote left him to possess and feed on Hulk. The symbiote apparently cured Banner from the Hulk, but he tried to possess Thor later, Black Bolt used his scream to free the God of Thunder. Felicia then killed the symbiote for killing Spider-Man. On the second, Spider-Man and the symbiote literally became one, and Spider-Man was reduced to a skeleton under the symbiote.

    Since this is going to be a collection of 4 issues, we can assume Peter won't suffer that fate where the symbiote will feed on him. However, to last four issues, I believe we will see how some Spider-Stories from that time will take a different turn. I have some suspictions:

    + First of all, according to Spider-History, there are a few elements to consider. Ben Reilly is alive and on his own, although he's not Scarlet Spider yet. Kaine must be alive too, somewhere. Gwen Stacy's death already happened and Norman Osborn keeps his low profile to torment Peter for the next years.
    + We can assume this Spider-Man will turn less "friendly neighborhood" and more "lethal protector" in this story.
    + "Death of Jean DeWolff": Maybe with the symbiote, the whole thing with the Sin-Eater will change drastically. Maybe Peter will stop the Sin-Eater before he even kill Jean DeWolff, which could avoid the whole thing of Eddie Brock losing his job and going to the church to commit suicide.
    + "The Wedding": Back then, the symbiote seemed to prefer Felicia over Mary Jane; so maybe we will have THIS wedding instead. Maybe the symbiote will create a "spawn" that will bond to Felicia, similar to what happened in the bad ending of the videogame "Web of Shadows".
    + "Kraven's Last Hunt": With the symbiote, Kraven's plot will surely fail, and Kraven will die at the hands of the symbiote instead of suicide.
    + "Invasion of the Spider-Slayers": With the symbiote turning him stronger and deadlier, this plot will also fail, and Alystair Smythe will get the beating of his life.

    I have more, but I will wait for some comments to continue.
    Those events would be interesting to see changed or altered as a result of Peter keeping the symbiote.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Those events would be interesting to see changed or altered as a result of Peter keeping the symbiote.
    Thanks, my friend. I'm pretty sure we will see some of it for this being a collection of 4 issues. Well, here I have more ideas:

    + "Maximum Carnage": Without classic Venom, we can't have classic Carnage, which means Cletus Kasady never became Carnage here. However, Cletus MIGHT still cause some troubles here. I believe some other character could become Carnage in this new reality. My first idea would be Norman Osborn, becoming the Red Goblin; probably taking a sample of the symbiote from the shadows and experimenting with it to become the Red Goblin.
    + "The Clone Saga": If the Jackal adds symbiote's DNA to his creations, this is going to get REALLY bad. Do you remember Spider-Cide? Well, he's another candidate to become Carnage in this reality. More like "Spider-Carnage". Not only that, Kaine (as he was still deformed by this time) could be another candidate to become Carnage.
    + "Harry Osborn": The whole conflict with Harry Osborn could turn very different here. Influenced by the symbiote, Spider-Man could actually kill Harry (which could reflect 616-Peter's state right now). But instead of that, Harry MIGHT be another candidate to become Carnage.

    Another theory I have turns around the other symbiotes that could appear. There will be other symbiotes without a doubt, but they will definitely have different hosts in this reality. I have my suspictions about who might get which symbiote. Let's see:

    + Carnage: I believe the best canidate would be Norman Osborn and adapting it to an alternative version of his Red Goblin's identity. Do you remember Spider-Venom vs Red Goblin? Well, now this will be a rematch!
    + Agony: I believe this could be the symbiote that Spider-Man/Venom infects Black Cat with. Pink is not really Felicia's color, but it matchs as the second female symbiote.
    + Scream: Possessed by the wild impulses of Agony, Felicia could attack Mary Jane to intimidate her and left her very clear that Spider-Man was hers. However, in doing it, her symbiote let a part of it close to Mary Jane, and that ends up turning MJ into Scream. Well, actually, maybe Venom itself is who intimidates Mary Jane, possessing Felicia.
    + Lasher: After beating Harry Osborn into summision, the symbiote could have left part of it close to Harry. And since green in their color, a perfect match.
    + Phage: This one could bond with Kaine, as using blades and stuff match with his original role as murdered and with his stingers from the Other.
    + Riot: This one could have been bonded with Spider-cide by the Jackal.

    So, what do you think?
    Last edited by Ursalink; 01-24-2021 at 06:07 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Thanks, my friend. I'm pretty sure we will see some of it for this being a collection of 4 issues. Well, here I have more ideas:

    + "Maximum Carnage": Without classic Venom, we can't have classic Carnage, which means Cletus Kasady never became Carnage here. However, Cletus MIGHT still cause some troubles here. I believe some other character could become Carnage in this new reality. My first idea would be Norman Osborn, becoming the Red Goblin; probably taking a sample of the symbiote from the shadows and experimenting with it to become the Red Goblin.
    + "The Clone Saga": If the Jackal adds symbiote's DNA to his creations, this is going to get REALLY bad. Do you remember Spider-Cide? Well, he's another candidate to become Carnage in this reality. More like "Spider-Carnage". Not only that, Kaine (as he was still deformed by this time) could be another candidate to become Carnage.
    + "Harry Osborn": The whole conflict with Harry Osborn could turn very different here. Influenced by the symbiote, Spider-Man could actually kill Harry (which could reflect 616-Peter's state right now). But instead of that, Harry MIGHT be another candidate to become Carnage.

    Another theory I have turns around the other symbiotes that could appear. There will be other symbiotes without a doubt, but they will definitely have different hosts in this reality. I have my suspictions about who might get which symbiote. Let's see:

    + Carnage: I believe the best canidate would be Norman Osborn and adapting it to an alternative version of his Red Goblin's identity. Do you remember Spider-Venom vs Red Goblin? Well, now this will be a rematch!
    + Agony: I believe this could be the symbiote that Spider-Man/Venom infects Black Cat with. Pink is not really Felicia's color, but it matchs as the second female symbiote.
    + Scream: Possessed by the wild impulses of Agony, Felicia could attack Mary Jane to intimidate her and left her very clear that Spider-Man was hers. However, in doing it, her symbiote let a part of it close to Mary Jane, and that ends up turning MJ into Scream. Well, actually, maybe Venom itself is who intimidates Mary Jane, possessing Felicia.
    + Lasher: After beating Harry Osborn into summision, the symbiote could have left part of it close to Harry. And since green in their color, a perfect match.
    + Phage: This one could bond with Kaine, as using blades and stuff match with his original role as murdered and with his stingers from the Other.
    + Riot: This one could have been bonded with Spider-cide by the Jackal.

    So, what do you think?
    Some interesting ideas there, and you're very welcome.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Some interesting ideas there, and you're very welcome.
    Thank you. I hope to be right at least in a couple of these ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Thank you. I hope to be right at least in a couple of these ideas.
    You're welcome, and I'm sure it'll be an interesting read whether you're right or not.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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    Since I began reading comics in late 2014 I started to become a fan of various characters I didn't think much about before. One of them is the Venom Symbiote itself who's name has never been stated but indicated that it has one.

    A HUGE reason I became a fan of the Venom Symbiote as a character is before in basically every version I've seen of Symbiotes there wasn't ever shown to me that symbiotes are living capable of growing, learning, and have and moral cores and personalities. They were always showcased as evil, one directional, corruptor or possibly processor with animal low intelligence (which makes it easy for the wear to be hand waved in the actions when having a symbiotic on). For these reasons I had no interest in them or any storylines involving Symbiotes. They weren't characters to me.

    Then I decided to check out some characters when i went into the comic store having become a comicbook fan since reading Edge of the Spider-verse #2 and other series recommended to me when I asked around. I was told about Venom and how the Venom Symbiote of Species history and the growth I was told about quickly got my attention. The Symbiotes were no longer one-dimensional and show capabilities of moral growth, consciousness, learning, communication, teamwork, respect, Avenger, and being an individual character and desire to be a better beings with a history. The Venom Symbiote BEING a character and basically to me the true main star of the series many times. I pulled and enjoyed what I was reading. I enjoyed the possibilities open. I enjoyed the new roads the special and individuals of that special could be and presented as.

    Part of me wanted symbiotes characters not seen maybe popping up that blew the expectations set in by the past constant grind of how they were presented before shifted including the 'sister dark voice in the head' many shows would have for symbiotes that might speak to the hosts. Plus intelligence and communications boosted with signs of long life experiences with past hero partners hosts and even humor. In my mind as a example a symbiote gets on Kamala Khan clinging on her and then it speaks to her in her mind...voice by Milana Vayntrub doing a western accent: "Howdy! Please to meet you! My name is..."

    Overall I enjoy when door of possibilities and showcase of imagination and character developments are shown. That greatly incudes the 'Flanderization' trope breaking for Symbiotes species and the Venom Symbiote Character.

    So what I hope to be pleasantly shocked with in terms of story and where it could lead is different. In my mind has expectations of what I've seen before in various media forms/Multiverses time and time agian in past versions showcasing Symbioties I feel will be the case here but hoping it's not.

    One case being it said how "Peter was Corrupted by..." is always a great case to not have Peter be responsible for his choices at all. Granted he didn't know his emotions was being amplified and thus during a series of bad moments his rage and other negative emtions went up which turn lead to bad choice making. But still Peter had to make the choices and act on them himself so he to in turn has to take responsibilities for that and what he contributed to and not full finger pointing on the Venom Symbiote which during the early state we can make equal to a baby but in what's it's learning and depended on a parent and new to the world it's on. I hope that Peter TEACHES the Symbiote acknowledging it is capable of growth, intelligent consciousness thought, morality, and in turn capable of growing and having development. Also covering "what makes a Human-oid" & "What Measure Is A Non Human" tropes.

    Then goes forth into not just how on a Multiverse similar to 616 Peter's and his cast life turns out differently but that of the growing and learning Symbiote character costarring in the issues. Maybe a new name thus never became the "Venom Symbiote" on that Earth at all but reveals it's name to Peter in the end or Peter gives it a name fitting in more of a heroic tone.

    But I don't think that will happen and instead a standard Symbiote=bad that I've seen before from general fanart showcase, to what-ifs, to various other adaptions is going to play out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelJD View Post
    Since I began reading comics in late 2014 I started to become a fan of various characters I didn't think much about before. One of them is the Venom Symbiote itself who's name has never been stated but indicated that it has one.

    A HUGE reason I became a fan of the Venom Symbiote as a character is before in basically every version I've seen of Symbiotes there wasn't ever shown to me that symbiotes are living capable of growing, learning, and have and moral cores and personalities. They were always showcased as evil, one directional, corruptor or possibly processor with animal low intelligence (which makes it easy for the wear to be hand waved in the actions when having a symbiotic on). For these reasons I had no interest in them or any storylines involving Symbiotes. They weren't characters to me.

    Then I decided to check out some characters when i went into the comic store having become a comicbook fan since reading Edge of the Spider-verse #2 and other series recommended to me when I asked around. I was told about Venom and how the Venom Symbiote of Species history and the growth I was told about quickly got my attention. The Symbiotes were no longer one-dimensional and show capabilities of moral growth, consciousness, learning, communication, teamwork, respect, Avenger, and being an individual character and desire to be a better beings with a history. The Venom Symbiote BEING a character and basically to me the true main star of the series many times. I pulled and enjoyed what I was reading. I enjoyed the possibilities open. I enjoyed the new roads the special and individuals of that special could be and presented as.

    Part of me wanted symbiotes characters not seen maybe popping up that blew the expectations set in by the past constant grind of how they were presented before shifted including the 'sister dark voice in the head' many shows would have for symbiotes that might speak to the hosts. Plus intelligence and communications boosted with signs of long life experiences with past hero partners hosts and even humor. In my mind as a example a symbiote gets on Kamala Khan clinging on her and then it speaks to her in her mind...voice by Milana Vayntrub doing a western accent: "Howdy! Please to meet you! My name is..."

    Overall I enjoy when door of possibilities and showcase of imagination and character developments are shown. That greatly incudes the 'Flanderization' trope breaking for Symbiotes species and the Venom Symbiote Character.

    So what I hope to be pleasantly shocked with in terms of story and where it could lead is different. In my mind has expectations of what I've seen before in various media forms/Multiverses time and time agian in past versions showcasing Symbioties I feel will be the case here but hoping it's not.

    One case being it said how "Peter was Corrupted by..." is always a great case to not have Peter be responsible for his choices at all. Granted he didn't know his emotions was being amplified and thus during a series of bad moments his rage and other negative emtions went up which turn lead to bad choice making. But still Peter had to make the choices and act on them himself so he to in turn has to take responsibilities for that and what he contributed to and not full finger pointing on the Venom Symbiote which during the early state we can make equal to a baby but in what's it's learning and depended on a parent and new to the world it's on. I hope that Peter TEACHES the Symbiote acknowledging it is capable of growth, intelligent consciousness thought, morality, and in turn capable of growing and having development. Also covering "what makes a Human-oid" & "What Measure Is A Non Human" tropes.

    Then goes forth into not just how on a Multiverse similar to 616 Peter's and his cast life turns out differently but that of the growing and learning Symbiote character costarring in the issues. Maybe a new name thus never became the "Venom Symbiote" on that Earth at all but reveals it's name to Peter in the end or Peter gives it a name fitting in more of a heroic tone.

    But I don't think that will happen and instead a standard Symbiote=bad that I've seen before from general fanart showcase, to what-ifs, to various other adaptions is going to play out.
    I understand your point, pal. It's not like the symbiotes are necesarily bad, they simply do what they do to survive; but one way or another, they end up causing damage to their hosts. So, when their hosts reject them, they have no reason to hold grudge against those who reject them. I mean, if a host wants to keep his individuality, it has all the right in the world. The symbiote should accept that the host simply doesn't suit it and should look for another alternative; a host more willing to accept the symbiosis.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelJD View Post
    Since I began reading comics in late 2014 I started to become a fan of various characters I didn't think much about before. One of them is the Venom Symbiote itself who's name has never been stated but indicated that it has one.

    A HUGE reason I became a fan of the Venom Symbiote as a character is before in basically every version I've seen of Symbiotes there wasn't ever shown to me that symbiotes are living capable of growing, learning, and have and moral cores and personalities. They were always showcased as evil, one directional, corruptor or possibly processor with animal low intelligence (which makes it easy for the wear to be hand waved in the actions when having a symbiotic on). For these reasons I had no interest in them or any storylines involving Symbiotes. They weren't characters to me.

    Then I decided to check out some characters when i went into the comic store having become a comicbook fan since reading Edge of the Spider-verse #2 and other series recommended to me when I asked around. I was told about Venom and how the Venom Symbiote of Species history and the growth I was told about quickly got my attention. The Symbiotes were no longer one-dimensional and show capabilities of moral growth, consciousness, learning, communication, teamwork, respect, Avenger, and being an individual character and desire to be a better beings with a history. The Venom Symbiote BEING a character and basically to me the true main star of the series many times. I pulled and enjoyed what I was reading. I enjoyed the possibilities open. I enjoyed the new roads the special and individuals of that special could be and presented as.

    Part of me wanted symbiotes characters not seen maybe popping up that blew the expectations set in by the past constant grind of how they were presented before shifted including the 'sister dark voice in the head' many shows would have for symbiotes that might speak to the hosts. Plus intelligence and communications boosted with signs of long life experiences with past hero partners hosts and even humor. In my mind as a example a symbiote gets on Kamala Khan clinging on her and then it speaks to her in her mind...voice by Milana Vayntrub doing a western accent: "Howdy! Please to meet you! My name is..."

    Overall I enjoy when door of possibilities and showcase of imagination and character developments are shown. That greatly incudes the 'Flanderization' trope breaking for Symbiotes species and the Venom Symbiote Character.

    So what I hope to be pleasantly shocked with in terms of story and where it could lead is different. In my mind has expectations of what I've seen before in various media forms/Multiverses time and time agian in past versions showcasing Symbioties I feel will be the case here but hoping it's not.

    One case being it said how "Peter was Corrupted by..." is always a great case to not have Peter be responsible for his choices at all. Granted he didn't know his emotions was being amplified and thus during a series of bad moments his rage and other negative emtions went up which turn lead to bad choice making. But still Peter had to make the choices and act on them himself so he to in turn has to take responsibilities for that and what he contributed to and not full finger pointing on the Venom Symbiote which during the early state we can make equal to a baby but in what's it's learning and depended on a parent and new to the world it's on. I hope that Peter TEACHES the Symbiote acknowledging it is capable of growth, intelligent consciousness thought, morality, and in turn capable of growing and having development. Also covering "what makes a Human-oid" & "What Measure Is A Non Human" tropes.

    Then goes forth into not just how on a Multiverse similar to 616 Peter's and his cast life turns out differently but that of the growing and learning Symbiote character costarring in the issues. Maybe a new name thus never became the "Venom Symbiote" on that Earth at all but reveals it's name to Peter in the end or Peter gives it a name fitting in more of a heroic tone.

    But I don't think that will happen and instead a standard Symbiote=bad that I've seen before from general fanart showcase, to what-ifs, to various other adaptions is going to play out.
    Pretty good post. Generally agreed, especially on your point about how the symbiote(s) can be more complex, both in terms of morals and characterization, than most in-universe or in real life would think.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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