View Poll Results: Best Fighter(s)

Voters
84. You may not vote on this poll
  • Dick Grayson

    3 3.57%
  • Bruce Wayne

    16 19.05%
  • Cassandra Cain

    18 21.43%
  • Richard Dragon

    10 11.90%
  • Lady Shiva

    16 19.05%
  • Bronze Tiger

    9 10.71%
  • Connor Hawke

    1 1.19%
  • Black Canary

    7 8.33%
  • Ra's al Ghul

    1 1.19%
  • Jason Todd

    3 3.57%
Page 4 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 140
  1. #46
    Been lurking since '08 Marik Swift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Black Canary gets really overrated imo, especially in the current continuity.

    She doesn't really have the kind of special training that the others have, and not many really impressive feats.
    What are you talking about? Dinah is either taught by all three of the greats Wildcat, Richard Dragon (her uncle) & Shiva, or at least across all continuities.

    And most of DC's highly trained fighters have no business being considered masters, especially the Batfam.

    If Bruce can master a million other skills and still be a master martial artist why can't Black Canary? And how is Jason more justified than Canary?

  2. #47
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    6,998

    Default

    Despite my personal opinions or inklings towards certain characters, I'm basing my opinion on an average of showings usually favoring recent years if a character has an abundance of showings. Traditionally, speaking Karate Kid has the best case for being the most skilled and was a general consensus for a number of years in DC fandom, even if you include that one fight against Batman during Brad Meltzer's Justice League run (technically Black Lightning helped out int hat one too).

    After that you get to the elite tier of Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva and Bronze Tiger who are basically the same level. Different styles and they've had some good and bad showings over the years, but they were conceived as elite martial artists thats an inherent part of there characters. Bronze Tigers claim to fame is beating Batman straight up, twice. These three are generally held in a higher realm. Some even throw in O-sensei or The Senei into this and I have no problems with it. Many comic message board fans use to put Batgirl firmly in this tier based on her showings in the 90s and early 2000s. I was okay with that at the time but these days I'd rank her a tier below. Ever since they turned her evil for a second in that Teen Titans arc followed by her and Grayson basically stalemating before he became Batman I don't think DC's been portraying her in that light and she doesn't have the long publication history or multimedia showings the others in this tier have to fall back on. The shift in her portrayal happened around 2009 if I'm not mistaken. You could argue the same for Connor Hawke but that was more limbo then anything else.

    Then you get to Batman level characters and those below him. Bruce has such an interesting publication history. He and robin use to tagged by random thungs all the times now that Batfamily are generally portrayd as being highly skilled. I know some people have already posted they don't like Batman being shown as a top tier master. On some levels I agree with that considering how skilled he is in a variety of different fields I prefer him being written as an elite detective and problem solver who has a high accument in a number of other areas. I like to think Batman overcomes his obstacles with a combinaiton of his martial skill, intelect, stealth, deception and gadgets. Nevertheless, DC has consistently portrayed Batman as a top level martial artist and given the numerous other street level martial artists you'd be hard pressed to find 8 more non-superhuman fighters more skilled then Bruce.


    Rough tiers based on portayals, these aren't in order. Certain fighters maybe better or worse then one another in the same tier.:

    S+ - Tier // The One
    Karate Kid

    S -Tier // Legendary Masters
    Richard Dragon
    Lady Shiva
    Bronze Tiger
    O-Sensei
    The Sensei
    I-Ching

    A -Tier // Master Martial Artists
    Cassandra Cain (formerly in S-Tier)
    Batman
    Constantine Drakon
    Connor Hawke
    Archer Braun
    Silver Monkey
    White Canary
    Natas
    David Cain
    Deathstroke
    Black Canary
    Bamboo Monkey
    Nightwing
    Wildcat


    B -Tier // Elite Fighters
    Jason Todd- he's gotten a big bump up in the last 10 years. His reintroduction as Redhood and the New 52 boosted his stock tremendously
    Jean-Paul Valley- I use to rank a him a little higher partly because of his time as Batman, but that has proven to be too high
    Cheshire
    Tommy Jagger
    Kitty Kumbata
    Bane
    Wam Wam
    Tiger
    Green Arrow
    Alpha
    Hush
    Shrike
    Shado
    Question (Sage)
    Prometheus
    Hwa Rang
    Huntress (Bertinelli)
    King Snake
    Savant
    Onyx
    Katana
    Gypsy
    Joey N'bobo
    Mr. Terrific
    Tim Drake
    The Wanderer
    Master Haim
    Catwoman
    Zeiss
    Barbara Gordon
    Rose Wilson
    Batwoman
    Damian Wayne
    Roy Harper
    Michael Lane

    C -Tier // Very Good Fighters
    Renee Montoya
    Stephanie Brown
    Knight (Sheldrake)
    Marque
    Knight (Hutchinson)
    Tarantula
    Marque
    Spy Smasher
    Dava
    Tigris
    White Willow
    Lynx
    Roy Raymond Jr.
    Judomaster 2
    Sin
    Lady Blackhawk
    She-Cat
    Scandal Savage
    KGBeast
    NKVDemon
    Suicide King
    Flamingo
    Scarlet
    Monkey Fist Cult
    The Armless Master
    Iron Master
    Thorn
    Freeway
    Widower
    Lady Vic
    Honduro Kishu
    David Zavimbe
    Orpheus
    Luke Fox
    Night Runner
    Saiko

    D -Tier // Solid
    Other Batman rogues
    Other Green Arrow Rogues
    I'll fill this out later***




    honorable mentions:
    I left out Wonder Woman because she's too hard to rank. Her strength, skill and durability are top tier, but many argue she's just as skilled as anyone else, but because her stats are so high its hard to fairly compare her.
    Mad Dog- there are a few Mad Dogs at Dc, but David Cain's son was incredibly skilled. He killed several elite martial artists at once, but I think he got nerfed int he New 52 so it's hard to judge
    Tsunetomo- he trained Bruce Wayne but I have no idea where to rank him
    Kirigi- same as above
    Asano Nitobe- same as above
    Carolyn Woosan - some say she's as good as Lady Shiva, but that's a hard pill to swallow
    Tim Fox - he should probably be in A-Tier but he's so new it's hard to say
    Vixen- not sure how much of her fighting is skill or her natual ability and powers
    Hawkgirl-she's probably very skilled but her enhanced stats make her hard to rate
    The J-man

  3. #48
    Spectacular Member km_sus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    114

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    And how is Jason more justified than Canary?
    Since I've gotten a few comments about it: Jason definitely deserves to be in the discussion when talking about great fighters. While he won't be at the top of many people's list, he does have a lot of skill. For one, he's gone through the exact same training/pilgrimage that Bruce undertook and then some. He's been a student of Shiva, Bruce and Bronze Tiger. His strength feats are insane - just as good as Bruce. While Post-Crisis Jason is a punk, post-Flashpoint Jason has received a massive power boost. He's beaten Deathstroke, Shiva, Ra's (stupid plot reasons, but they all still technically happened) and has fought Bruce and Cass while holding his ground.

    He at least deserves some consideration.

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    6,791

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    What are you talking about? Dinah is either taught by all three of the greats Wildcat, Richard Dragon (her uncle) & Shiva, or at least across all continuities.
    At least right Death Metal Wildcat (and Dinahs connection to the JSA) and Richard Dragon didn't exist in the current continuity and there was no mentioning of Shiva training her post flashpoint.

    Apart from that Richard Dragon trained Huntress and Barbara but not Dinah, she iirc didn't even new how he was when someone brought him in for their fight against the 12 Brothers.

    And I'm not sure if call that what Shiva gave her really training, and technically at lest Bruce, Tim and Jason got also "training" by her, so that's not really anything that lets her stand out.

    I'm not saying that she is not a strong fighter, but being "the best" or being more skilled than Batman that's something I don't see (especially post flashpoint).


    Question here is also in general what version of the character do you really use as reference. Many characters got imo boost between OYL and Falsh Point and are now post flashpoint back to their "classic" power level.
    Last edited by Aahz; 01-21-2021 at 03:09 AM.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    6,791

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by km_sus View Post
    Since I've gotten a few comments about it: Jason definitely deserves to be in the discussion when talking about great fighters. While he won't be at the top of many people's list, he does have a lot of skill. For one, he's gone through the exact same training/pilgrimage that Bruce undertook and then some. He's been a student of Shiva, Bruce and Bronze Tiger. His strength feats are insane - just as good as Bruce. While Post-Crisis Jason is a punk, post-Flashpoint Jason has received a massive power boost. He's beaten Deathstroke, Shiva, Ra's (stupid plot reasons, but they all still technically happened) and has fought Bruce and Cass while holding his ground.

    He at least deserves some consideration.
    He got also training by the All Caste.

    Btw. even pre Flashpoint he was usually pretty equally matched with Dick in their fights.

    But it is pretty dependent on the writer, some really like to use him as a punching ball.

  6. #51
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    A -Tier // Master Martial Artists
    Nightwing

    B -Tier // Elite Fighters
    Cheshire
    Bane
    Why is Nightwing ranked higher than Bane? Didnt he get humiliated by Bane once?

    Also where would you rank Harley considering she beat Cheshire in Batman comics?


  7. #52
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    62,061

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Black Canary gets really overrated imo, especially in the current continuity.

    She doesn't really have the kind of special training that the others have, and not many really impressive feats.
    I think Simone/BoP really went into developing Dinah as a top-level martial artist.
    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Why is Nightwing ranked higher than Bane? Didnt he get humiliated by Bane once?

    Also where would you rank Harley considering she beat Cheshire in Batman comics?

    The Harley-force is its own separate subject.

  8. #53
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    6,998

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Why is Nightwing ranked higher than Bane? Didnt he get humiliated by Bane once?

    Also where would you rank Harley considering she beat Cheshire in Batman comics?
    As I said, I'm taking a character's weighted canonical average. If they have an abundance of appearances, then the more recent years are weighted heavier. The scan you're showing is from over 20 years ago, and in that span, by these rankings, Dick Grayson's stock has greatly improved. Look at his first stint as Batman than his showings from 2009 to today, where he's going through Two-Face, Ra's Al Ghul, Deathstroke, Cassandra Cain, KG Beast, Secret Six, and many others. Not that he hasn't had his lows, but I'd say he deserves this grouping. Conversely, Bane hasn't gotten the same portrayals he did in the 90s. I know people love Secret Six, but that's not Knightfall Bane. If anything, some writers tend to push his brute force. Even the Tom King arc, which many consider a great showing for Bane, isn't the same beast as 90s Bane, and he's had a few other stories that dropped his stock since his initial appearances.

    Harley is an interesting case. She wasn't originally created to be this elite fighter, same with Joker, yet they have their moments. Based on showings and her more recent feats, she'd probably have to be in B-Tier with the elite fighters. I'm not taking much stock in her beating Batman unless she's written that way with some level of consistency. Heck, I had a problem putting Catwoman in Elite because she certainly wasn't portrayed like that in the 90s, but given how she's written in recent years, I've got to.

    Lastly, just because someone's in the same tier/grouping doesn't mean they aren't better or worse than someone else in there, it's a ballpark. Way too nitpicky/difficult to rank everyone numerically when several of these fighters have inconsistent portrayals. Anyone in everyone's got a puncher's chance.
    Last edited by Jabare; 01-21-2021 at 09:40 AM.
    The J-man

  9. #54
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    13,152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    Overall, a female fighters I feel would almost always struggle against a male fighters, even those not on her level due to size & strength, whereas a male fighter wouldn't struggle with someone beneath their level due to size & strength not being a factor for them to overcome to win.
    It's not a sexist attitude, either. As pointed out yesterday, a featherweight boxer, however skilled he is, would have zip/zero/nada chance against a heavyweight (and a featherweight is still bigger than your average woman).
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

    Pre-CBR Reboot Join Date: 10-17-2010

    Pre-CBR Reboot Posts: 4,362

    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ So... what's your excuse now?

  10. #55
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    6,998

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    I suppose in the comic book world, elite women like Black Canary and Shiva are so unbelievably skilled that they can overcome differences in size, bone density, etc. against elite male martial artists, right?

    Not trying to be disrespectful or start a huge debate, but the question seems to ask who does best hand to hand, and people generally tend to underestimate the importance of size & strength. It's a different question to who is the most skilled.
    if we are bringing realism into this then: weight, muscle mass, bone density and other physical advantages or limitations have to be considered. But many comics and movie don't really take those into account. I'm just looking at this from what's on the comic pages because most of the over the top feats these characters have done aren't realistic for the men or the women.
    The J-man

  11. #56
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    62,061

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    It's not a sexist attitude, either. As pointed out yesterday, a featherweight boxer, however skilled he is, would have zip/zero/nada chance against a heavyweight (and a featherweight is still bigger than your average woman).
    I think most female hand-to-hand fighters in the DCU are trained more extensively than a featherweight boxer though.

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    if we are bringing realism into this then: weight, muscle mass, bone density and other physical advantages or limitations have to be considered. But many comics and movie don't really take those into account. I'm just looking at this from what's on the comic pages because most of the over the top feats these characters have done aren't realistic for the men or the women.
    Yeah I think that's the best way to do it. If the pages have Lady Shiva beating men twice her size regularly then that's just how it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think most female hand-to-hand fighters in the DCU are trained more extensively than a featherweight boxer though.
    That doesn't really change the argument much, featherweight Mixed Martial Artists could not feasibly defeat elite Heavyweights.

  13. #58
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    If i was a comic character, my surname would be DaCosta
    Posts
    4,308

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    Many comic message board fans use to put Batgirl firmly in this tier based on her showings in the 90s and early 2000s. I was okay with that at the time but these days I'd rank her a tier below. Ever since they turned her evil for a second in that Teen Titans arc followed by her and Grayson basically stalemating before he became Batman I don't think DC's been portraying her in that light and she doesn't have the long publication history or multimedia showings the others in this tier have to fall back on. The shift in her portrayal happened around 2009 if I'm not mistaken. You could argue the same for Connor Hawke but that was more limbo then anything else.
    You're wrong here, Jabare. I mean, you're right in the sense that "Evil Cass" ruined her characterization, and that Outsiders, when written by Tieri, didn't portray him in the best of lights. However, contrary to one poster liked to repeat ad nauseaum here, the "stalemate" never happened. (Dick tried top pick a fight with her and she basically shrugged him off).

    After that, Cass went to Limbo for a while, returned in Snyder's "Gates of Gotham", with her characterization back to usual, and went to limbo again because of the new 52. Since coming back in Batman and Robin Eternal, though, she already wiped the floor with all the Robins, beat both Batman and Catowman, Shiva more than once (as if it wasn't a big deal) and in opne particular scene single handed defeated a whole platoon of Jacob Kane "Batmen", while all the rest of the Bat-Family were were struggling to deal with one at a time. Cass remains at the top. Evil Cass was a crappy portrayal, but was a blip in her history, not a definitive change of status/characterization.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  14. #59
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    13,152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think most female hand-to-hand fighters in the DCU are trained more extensively than a featherweight boxer though.
    True, but that can also be said of the male characters in the DCU.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

    Pre-CBR Reboot Join Date: 10-17-2010

    Pre-CBR Reboot Posts: 4,362

    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ So... what's your excuse now?

  15. #60
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    13,152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Yeah I think that's the best way to do it. If the pages have Lady Shiva beating men twice her size regularly then that's just how it is.
    I actually consider them secret metahumans and just move on from there.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

    Pre-CBR Reboot Join Date: 10-17-2010

    Pre-CBR Reboot Posts: 4,362

    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ So... what's your excuse now?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •