View Poll Results: Best Fighter(s)

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  • Dick Grayson

    3 3.57%
  • Bruce Wayne

    16 19.05%
  • Cassandra Cain

    18 21.43%
  • Richard Dragon

    10 11.90%
  • Lady Shiva

    16 19.05%
  • Bronze Tiger

    9 10.71%
  • Connor Hawke

    1 1.19%
  • Black Canary

    7 8.33%
  • Ra's al Ghul

    1 1.19%
  • Jason Todd

    3 3.57%
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  1. #106
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    you how you gonna dismiss every other character's skill as being defined by popularity, but then in the same breath talk about how Batman is limitless? an percieved "limitlessness" attributed to Batman is purely due to popularity, you're drinking the kool-aid. lets stop the cap, Batman has limits and without tech or planning ahead, going purely on hand to hand like the rest if these people, he's not fighting Superman, Darksied, or any superpowered individual that these other fighters couldn't. if he could trade hands at that level, that would break the premise of Batman as a superhero.
    What I was saying is that is more of a combination, of Batman skills and the fact that because he is popular DC, in general, will put him against characters way above his power level, and because he is constantly put against world levers he was equiped by writers over the years with the skills that allows him to level up using whatever he needs to do it.

    The example I gave is a good one I think. If Batman is walking around one night and ends up fighting Lady Shiva, chances are he would lose, but if he knew he was going to face against her, he probably would have the "one move" preped to take her out in a hand-to-hand face off. It's just how Batman works.

  2. #107
    Fantastic Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    Cass/Shiva/Canary are all better fighters than Batman imo

  3. #108
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Well, Cass or Shiva wouldn't be able to beat a top-tier male fighter in reality, so don't begrudge Bruce's polymathic abilities.
    But I don't begrudge Bruce's skills. BRuce is the ultimate reaniascance man. HE's a top-10 worlwide martial artist, understands science better than 995 of the world, is (sometimes) an incredible businessman, etc, etc. If you take ALL of Bruce's skills into account, he is unbeatable by any other human. When we're talking martial arts skills alone, hoiwever, he is not "the best", and the gap between him and Shiva/Cass is quite a big one. That is not to his detriment; Bruce can beat anyone on hand to hand alone outside of those two and, depending of the time, Bronze Tiger.

    But he's a better superhero in general vthan any of those could dream top be.

    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Cass is a heroic character. If Cass is seen as the best fighter, who does she regularly fight against then? Bunch of no name thugs? Who tests her abilites on a regular basis? If Cass is so good, why isnt she written to be a great help to Batman like his Robin?

    Im not stanning for Batman but if you say Cass is that good, who are her regular foes? Only when Cass is put up against various other villains, then i would say there is a definite proof that she is undisputedly the best fighter. Right now i cant see that, especially after Flashpoint Batman having beaten her. To me, the best fighter isnt simply someone who has a few victories against one or two top tier fighters but is also proven to be good against the field as well.
    Yeah, look, I have no obligation to prove to you that what's in the comics is in the comics. Go read a little more. The one point I think is worth addressing though, is that Cass VS Flashpoint Batman was written by the same guy who made Catwoman kick 3 Flkashes in the face at the same time. I like Tom King generally, but he doesn't give a flying fuck about powerscalling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Shiva has afaik not really any training that goes above what Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger have. If you go back to the original she had even less.

    It wasn't untill after COIE that she suddenly became the best fighter. And even in Death in the Family she and Bruce were pretty evenly matched and she lost once Jason helped Bruce.
    You're correct. Shiva was not THE martial artist until way into the late 90's, early 2000s. It was the aftermath of Bruce's broken back that pút her in that path, and then (mostly) Gail Simone's BoP and Cass' monthly. Regardless, is a status that has endured since. There are even some comics that address this directly. In Cass' book, Bronze Tiger says that when Shiva got pregnant with Cass, she "wasn't unbeatable yet", clearly showing that her skills improved over time. In BoP (either Simone's 2nd run or Bedard's run, I can't remember right now), she beat the fake Prometheus only on the fact that his data was outdated. According to her, "she learns 27 different martial arts in a year". The thing here, with Shiva particularly, is that she never stopped training and learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Question, can Cass and Shiva defeat Superman, Darkseid or even one of Joker's grand schemes? No, they can't. For all their talents, that is a limit to what their kung-fu allows them to achieve.

    If Cass, Shiva or any of the characters presented as better than Batman had to defeat an enemy with super powers above mid-tier they would be useless, because they are limited to what their martial arts training (and let's be real, popularity) allows them to do. Batman is limitless, because in universe he is the guy that can prepare to anything and out of universe he is the most popular comic book character DC or even Marvel have.
    So, in universe the writers have other hailed as better martial artists than Batman for the same reason Supergirl, Conner, H'El and Jon Kent are declared as ''maybe stronger" than Clark, because that will prop them up.

    But when it really matters we know who wins a fight. They will just say Batman spent 3 months running simulations that made possible for him to predict Shiva's exactly moves and to land a single powerful punch on her, and he just made the punch counts, or something like that. And I say all this as a Superman fan that is used to see Bruce Wayne do the same type of thing to my favorite characters.
    Batman can copmpletelly beat any of the other two. What he can't do it is beat them on hand to hand alone. A ´proper Bats, when confronted by Shiva in a serious matter, would drop a grenade that makes her lose balance, or use whatever gadget and be done with it in five minutes.

    Shiva and Cass are the best at what they do, but they're one trick ponies.
    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 01-24-2021 at 03:30 PM.
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  4. #109
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    Cass/Shiva/Canary are all better fighters than Batman imo
    Cass and Shiva certainly are. Canaray, though, is slightly bellow Bruce. She does have the potential to to surpass him, but is just to emotionally healthy to dedicate herself to it. I'd say she is on par with Dick Grayson/Roy Harper.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  5. #110
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Batman is a top tier superhero and one of the smartest men on the planet
    Shiva, Cass, Bronze Tiger, Richard Dragon, etc
    They are good fighters that's it
    No veritable skills in any other facet to their characters
    They definitely more skilled than him martially but in a life or death fight with all resources available to each character Batman would stomp all of them 100% of the time. His tech and combination of skills makes up for the gap in prowess by a good deal

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Regarding OP's claim that Val Amorr would be too overwhelmingly skilled to even be worth talking about in opposition to everyone else on offer...

    I absolutely agree, but I think rather than being taken off the table with regards to that overwhelming skill, he deserves full recognition as the absolutely doubtless best martial artist in the entire pantheon of all DC characters.

    reason1-karatekidplanet.jpg

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  7. #112
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Regarding OP's claim that Val Amorr would be too overwhelmingly skilled to even be worth talking about in opposition to everyone else on offer...

    I absolutely agree, but I think rather than being taken off the table with regards to that overwhelming skill, he deserves full recognition as the absolutely doubtless best martial artist in the entire pantheon of all DC characters.

    reason1-karatekidplanet.jpg

    image source: MightyGodKing blog post from 2010
    The problem is Val's abilities are ridiculous for a non-metahuman. Of all non-superpowered heroes listed here so far, his abilities are the most flat-out impossible. IMO, he shouldn't be listed with the others (though I love him as a character).
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  8. #113
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    The problem is Val's abilities are ridiculous for a non-metahuman. Of all non-superpowered heroes listed here so far, his abilities are the most flat-out impossible. IMO, he shouldn't be listed with the others (though I love him as a character).
    You’re right about “impossible “, but we ARE talking about comic books.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  9. #114
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    You’re right about “impossible “, but we ARE talking about comic books.
    I don't have a pr4oblem with his abilities, but he should be classified as a metahuman.
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  10. #115
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    I don't have a pr4oblem with his abilities, but he should be classified as a metahuman.
    So should Cass. Hell, maybe even Luthor. But again , comic book logic.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  11. #116
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    So should Cass. Hell, maybe even Luthor. But again , comic book logic.
    Yep. I have been leaving my brain outside the door for decades while reading my comics, so I hear you.
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  12. #117
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    I don't know why DC doesn't just state that Cass, Shiva and Karate Kid are practicing some kind of martial art that gives people super powers like Iron Fist or several anime characters.

  13. #118
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I think that only gets left off the table because stating outright that certain martial arts or training give you powers, would basically ruin Batman.

    I mean come on, we've all seen Batman move faster than a real life human can no matter how much they train. He's stronger and more durable than a real person, he heals better, he goes up against whole armed gangs. He does thirty foot wuxia jumps into the air relatively often in cartoons or whatever. He even leaps off a building and lands unharmed in The Dark Knight, ever the poster child movie of pseudo realism.

    It's not a matter of saying, "oh, Batman doesn't use those magic martial arts, just the normal kind," because we're making the magic ones up in the first place to justify martial artists who already do the impossible or the practically impossible - and so does Batman.

    The level of realism to which Batman is subject varies wildly, just as it does for Cain and Karate Kid. And if you give them an explicitly supernatural martial art to explain their feats, you have to do the same to Batman, for his superhuman feats, or else put a much tighter lid on his feats, which obviously nobody really wants. We need to be able to pretend Batman could be a real person, even though we see him physically do the impossible. And crucially, I think we need to extend Val Armorr the same courtesy. It's only fair, even if he fights armies instead of gangs.

    I mean, pfft, I'm sure Batman has fought an army at some point too.
    Last edited by Adekis; 01-25-2021 at 09:37 AM.
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  14. #119
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I think that only gets left off the table because stating outright that certain martial arts or training give you powers, would basically ruin Batman.

    I mean come on, we've all seen Batman move faster than a real life human can no matter how much they train. He's stronger and more durable than a real person, he heals better, he goes up against whole armed gangs. He does thirty foot wuxia jumps into the air relatively often in cartoons or whatever. He even leaps off a building and lands unharmed in The Dark Knight, ever the poster child movie of pseudo realism.

    It's not a matter of saying, "oh, Batman doesn't use those magic martial arts, just the normal kind," because we're making the magic ones up in the first place to justify martial artists who already do the impossible or the practically impossible - and so does Batman.

    The level of realism to which Batman is subject varies wildly, just as it does for Cain and Karate Kid. And if you give them an explicitly supernatural martial art to explain their feats, you have to do the same to Batman, for his superhuman feats, or else put a much tighter lid on his feats, which obviously nobody really wants. We need to be able to pretend Batman could be a real person, even though we see him physically do the impossible. And crucially, I think we need to extend Val Armorr the same courtesy. It's only fair, even if he fights armies instead of gangs.

    I mean, pfft, I'm sure Batman has fought an army at some point too.
    Forget Batman, it would ruin the majority of heroes in fiction. When I was a kid, Joe Mannix and Jim Rockford averaged a conk on the noggin per show. Now this would leave you with severe mental difficulties and possibly a brain tumor along the way in reality, yet it never slowed those two and countless others. They also seemed to get the bad guy in a foot race, even if they had knee problems like James Garner and David Janssen had in real life. I do recall the above-mentioned mentioned Jim Rockford losing a tooth on an episode of The Rockford Files, but that was a rarity (he did find it for the dentist to reinsert it, FWIW) - all the heroes of my youth still looked great after a beating in a few days time. IOW, this all happened before Bats was even created.
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  15. #120
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Exactly. Like David Mazzuchelli said, you can't treat heroes too realistically or they fall apart and become kind of pathetic.

    So... why would you insist on anything more than pseudo realism? Or, allow one character to be pseudo realistic while another is forced to be described as supernatural, and denied access to the pseudo realism club? Sounds pretty silly when I say it like that.

    Stretching the boundaries of realism is just a part of heroic fantasy, and that's... good! All part of the fun!
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