View Poll Results: Best Fighter(s)

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  • Dick Grayson

    3 3.53%
  • Bruce Wayne

    17 20.00%
  • Cassandra Cain

    18 21.18%
  • Richard Dragon

    10 11.76%
  • Lady Shiva

    16 18.82%
  • Bronze Tiger

    9 10.59%
  • Connor Hawke

    1 1.18%
  • Black Canary

    7 8.24%
  • Ra's al Ghul

    1 1.18%
  • Jason Todd

    3 3.53%
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  1. #91
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    I didn't say Babs, I said Bats. As in "The Batman".
    Ah! I misread that, probably because the idea that Batman is far below those two is kind of bizarre.
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  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    I didn't say Babs, I said Bats. As in "The Batman".
    Now this would make a good signature line
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  3. #93
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    I find it funny that people vote for Cass here but think about it, does anyone really see any writer putting Cass up against other Batman's villains like Bane for example and showing that she is superior to Batman in fighting h2h against his villains? So in "Batman" comics, would you see the likes of Bat villains like Bane being taken down by Cass more easily in a fight than the main protagonist Batman himself? Like Batman, Dick would struggle against Bane but somehow Cass is gonna have an easier time than them in fighting against him? lol
    Yes, they do. Been done quite a lot, actually.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  4. #94
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Ah! I misread that, probably because the idea that Batman is far below those two is kind of bizarre.
    Yeah, but it’s factual from the late 90’s onward. At the end of the day, Bats as he is today is THE BEST in very few things. However, he is a “master” at everything he does, which is unique. Babs is a better hacker, there are better fighters and better scientists and better businessmen and so on. But no one can do everything that he does at his level.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  5. #95
    Incredible Member prepmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Yes, they do. Been done quite a lot, actually.
    Did Cass ever fight against Bane?

    Bane without venom slam Jason's head to the ground



    So you are telling me the guy who broke Batman's back, humiliated Nightwing, dominated Red Hood is gonna be beaten by Cass more easily than those 3 Bat characters ive just mentioned?

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    I find it funny that people vote for Cass here but think about it, does anyone really see any writer putting Cass up against other Batman's villains like Bane for example and showing that she is superior to Batman in fighting h2h against his villains? So in "Batman" comics, would you see the likes of Bat villains like Bane being taken down by Cass more easily in a fight than the main protagonist Batman himself? Like Batman, Dick would struggle against Bane but somehow Cass is gonna have an easier time than them in fighting against him? lol
    People are voting for Cass based on her feats not what writers need to not make Batman look lesser.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Did Cass ever fight against Bane?

    Bane without venom slam Jason's head to the ground



    So you are telling me the guy who broke Batman's back, humiliated Nightwing, dominated Red Hood is gonna be beaten by Cass more easily than those 3 Bat characters ive just mentioned?
    Cass has bested Dick and the most Bruce was able to do was stalemate her when she wasn't seriously trying to hurt him. So yeah, there's a pretty good argument that Bane could be beaten by her more easily.

    And Bane only broke Bruce's back because the guy was too physically exhausted to properly defend himself.

    These types of threads really do bring out the insecurity in Bruce's fans.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-24-2021 at 11:11 AM.

  8. #98
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Did Cass ever fight against Bane?

    Bane without venom slam Jason's head to the ground

    So you are telling me the guy who broke Batman's back, humiliated Nightwing, dominated Red Hood is gonna be beaten by Cass more easily than those 3 Bat characters ive just mentioned?
    Yes, I’m telling you exactly that, provided the fight is only hand to hand.

    Also, Cass could probably break Batman ‘s back breaking way less a sweat than Babe ever did.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Sorry but no writer is gonna write "Batman" comics to show how Cass is gonna take down Batman villains more easily than the main protagonist Batman himself even in just physical fights.

    Batman himself has a record of beating multiple rogues in enclosed space at the same time on many occasions. How? Nerve strikes and the use of smoke grenades and other gadgets.

    So the idea of an alternate version of Batman being able to beat up multiple underlings trained by the main version of Batman is not far off.
    The difference is that the majority of Batman's classic villain are complete push overs in hand to Hand Combat (or at least used to untill maybe 10 or 15 years ago). The is really just a handfull among his more prominent villains that are thread for him.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Yeah, but it’s factual from the late 90’s onward. At the end of the day, Bats as he is today is THE BEST in very few things. However, he is a “master” at everything he does, which is unique. Babs is a better hacker, there are better fighters and better scientists and better businessmen and so on. But no one can do everything that he does at his level.
    Well, Cass or Shiva wouldn't be able to beat a top-tier male fighter in reality, so don't begrudge Bruce's polymathic abilities.
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  11. #101
    Incredible Member prepmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Yes, I’m telling you exactly that, provided the fight is only hand to hand.

    Also, Cass could probably break Batman ‘s back breaking way less a sweat than Babe ever did.
    Cass is a heroic character. If Cass is seen as the best fighter, who does she regularly fight against then? Bunch of no name thugs? Who tests her abilites on a regular basis? If Cass is so good, why isnt she written to be a great help to Batman like his Robin?

    Im not stanning for Batman but if you say Cass is that good, who are her regular foes? Only when Cass is put up against various other villains, then i would say there is a definite proof that she is undisputedly the best fighter. Right now i cant see that, especially after Flashpoint Batman having beaten her. To me, the best fighter isnt simply someone who has a few victories against one or two top tier fighters but is also proven to be good against the field as well.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 01-24-2021 at 12:44 PM.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    What I'm saying here is actually pretty correct. We've got people like Batman and Bronze Tiger, whose training takes them as far as a "normal" human can go. And then we have Shiva and, specially, Cass, whose brain wiring has been ttinkered with into turning them into fighting machines. For all intents and purposes, they're almost meta. This has been shown, multiple times, both pre and post Flashpoint.
    Shiva has afaik not really any training that goes above what Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger have. If you go back to the original she had even less.

    It wasn't untill after COIE that she suddenly became the best fighter. And even in Death in the Family she and Bruce were pretty evenly matched and she lost once Jason helped Bruce.

  13. #103
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Question, can Cass and Shiva defeat Superman, Darkseid or even one of Joker's grand schemes? No, they can't. For all their talents, that is a limit to what their kung-fu allows them to achieve.

    If Cass, Shiva or any of the characters presented as better than Batman had to defeat an enemy with super powers above mid-tier they would be useless, because they are limited to what their martial arts training (and let's be real, popularity) allows them to do. Batman is limitless, because in universe he is the guy that can prepare to anything and out of universe he is the most popular comic book character DC or even Marvel have.
    So, in universe the writers have other hailed as better martial artists than Batman for the same reason Supergirl, Conner, H'El and Jon Kent are declared as ''maybe stronger" than Clark, because that will prop them up.

    But when it really matters we know who wins a fight. They will just say Batman spent 3 months running simulations that made possible for him to predict Shiva's exactly moves and to land a single powerful punch on her, and he just made the punch counts, or something like that. And I say all this as a Superman fan that is used to see Bruce Wayne do the same type of thing to my favorite characters.
    Last edited by Ra-El; 01-24-2021 at 01:51 PM.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Question, can Cass and Shiva defeat Superman, Darkseid or even one of Joker's grand schemes? No, they can't. For all their talents, that is a limit to what their kung-fu allows them to achieve.

    If Cass, Shiva or any of the characters presented as better than Batman had to defeat an enemy with super powers above mid-tier they would be useless, because they are limited to what their martial arts training (and let's be real, popularity) allows them to do. Batman is limitless, because in universe he is the guy that can prepare to anything and out of universe he is the most popular comic book character DC or even Marvel have.
    So, in universe the writers have other hailed as better martial artists than Batman for the same reason Supergirl, Conner, H'El and Jon Kent are declared as ''maybe stronger" than Clark, because that will prop them up.

    But when it really matters we know who wins a fight. They will just say Batman spent 3 months running simulations that made possible for him to predict Shiva's exactly moves and to land a single powerful punch on her, and he just made the punch counts, or something like that. And I say all this as a Superman fan that is used to see Bruce Wayne do the same type of thing to my favorite characters.
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  15. #105
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Question, can Cass and Shiva defeat Superman, Darkseid or even one of Joker's grand schemes? No, they can't. For all their talents, that is a limit to what their kung-fu allows them to achieve.

    If Cass, Shiva or any of the characters presented as better than Batman had to defeat an enemy with super powers above mid-tier they would be useless, because they are limited to what their martial arts training (and let's be real, popularity) allows them to do. Batman is limitless, because in universe he is the guy that can prepare to anything and out of universe he is the most popular comic book character DC or even Marvel have.
    So, in universe the writers have other hailed as better martial artists than Batman for the same reason Supergirl, Conner, H'El and Jon Kent are declared as ''maybe stronger" than Clark, because that will prop them up.

    But when it really matters we know who wins a fight. They will just say Batman spent 3 months running simulations that made possible for him to predict Shiva's exactly moves and to land a single powerful punch on her, and he just made the punch counts, or something like that. And I say all this as a Superman fan that is used to see Bruce Wayne do the same type of thing to my favorite characters.
    you how you gonna dismiss every other character's skill as being defined by popularity, but then in the same breath talk about how Batman is limitless? an percieved "limitlessness" attributed to Batman is purely due to popularity, you're drinking the kool-aid. lets stop the cap, Batman has limits and without tech or planning ahead, going purely on hand to hand like the rest if these people, he's not fighting Superman, Darksied, or any superpowered individual that these other fighters couldn't. if he could trade hands at that level, that would break the premise of Batman as a superhero.
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