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  1. #91
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    FF failed because it was a fox movie that made little sense and was critically panned, if they had went there and made the entire team black or hispanic it would have done well. Audiences can see when someone is putting s token black person in and thats like every fox movie ever. Like instead of making Reed, black let's go ahead and make Johnny black because then we can go adoption instead of interracial relationship. Then people try to use the same tripe logic to be all "it was doomed to fail." Why yes it was. lol Now see how Michael B Jordan did in a movie that actually respected him as an actor.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  2. #92
    Incredible Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    **Nervous** See Lightning Lad, Wally West, Starfire and Jimmy Olsen.

    Starfire is not human and her skin color doesn't exist in nature (Trump jokes notwithstanding), they can't change an ethnicity that doesn't actually exist.

  3. #93
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    And the reason they usually change the red hair characters if we are honest, is because they are usually sidekicks or the best friend, or don't have that many lines. Jimmy Olsen. LMAO
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  4. #94
    Astonishing Member ChronoRogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Blade for marvel, Catwoman for DC. Why should I give them credit for actually going backwards?
    Wow I can't believe I forgot about Blade.

    However while Blade's a Marvel property yes, the MCU basically didn't exist (yet) and the Blade franchise basically stood on it's own as a horror-vampire flick. I don't think most people are even aware he's a Marvel character.

    That said, you are right that BP isn't the first black character Marvel signed off on to make a solo movie. But he is the first they had real creative control over.

    I get your points, In some ways I am preaching to choir to you. I am trying to explain the frustrating experience of coming a thread like this seeing every one say yes let use these wonderful diverse characters then every where else you see the push for "Classic" or "popular" when even at times they aren't that popular.
    Do you mean on comic forums or with the general public? Because if it's the latter, they just aren't exposed to many POC in the franchise. The cartoons and the movies have done a poor job establishing any POC outside of Storm.

    If you mean comic fans, while I definitely want to see my classic favorite characters (Rogue) I also would like to see more diverse characters rise to prominence. Luckily the franchise is big enough to support a huge numbers of characters so its definitely possible to please both crowds given enough resources.

    But I think this all ties back to not getting enough exposure to build up a solid fan-base, which is why them appearing the MCU would be beneficial. I think it actually hurts to race-bend because that attention or screen-time could have been used for an actual POC character. Instead of a character that will always end up being compared or portrayed differently in other media.

    The biggest problem might be what I touched on, comics are diverse more than they have ever been and X-men books recently are killing with diverse roster but what makes characters iconic or main stays? Being used in Iconic stories. Who is remember in those stories? the lead characters the ones with importance. What are the biggest stories over last couple years

    1. E for Extinction- Morrison Run
    2. Gifted- Joss Whedon Run
    3. Messiah Complex-Various writers
    4. HoXPoX- Hickman
    5 AvX-Various writers

    And I am just explaining why I seem harsh on diversity. If characters don't get used in big stories they don't get elevated and don't show up frequently in books later. The one character in recent years isn't from big names that is almost one now is Magik. Magik elevation as character can be traced to being used AvX and then stories after that. Another character that is getting elevated like crazy is Cypher and we should see it pay off over the next few years. The point is being used in big stories makes other writers use in big stories which is why it is important to note that Cyclops, Magneto, Emma Frost, Xavier, Moria, Wolverine, Jean Grey, Kitty as the focus of the X-men. Could you imagine if Bishop was captain commander instead of Cyclops? Could you imagine if Sunspot was on the council get all these great interactions with the major players? Could you imagine if Forge was in charge of X-force instead of Beast? what if Monet was in charge of the Marauders instead of Kitty.
    I agree with you. Writers need to put POC in central and important story lines. They can't expect people to care about POC characters if they spend no time developing them or giving them any real significance.

    Storm was able to get to where she was because CC pushed her into these important roles. The same needs to done with others.

    It is not just enough that these character show up again for perspective Nick Fury, Falcon, War Machine, Goliath, little Monica Rambeau actually do for representation with those small appearances over 20 years? What did one Black Panther movie do for representation? X-men is the most diverse franchise in comics by far what good is that if every minority character is a side character? Kwannon is major player in Hellion, but if that was happening in "X-men" book it would be having a bigger impact and increase the chance she shows up again in the future.
    Again, I wouldn't agree on the 20 year history. Out of your list Nick Fury, Falcon and War Machine each have impacted story-lines in the greater MU. Is it a huge shift? No but people know them now and they are beginning to draw in fanbases. Heck Falcon and Nick Fury both have shows coming out this or early next year. Which could end up tying into the movies just like WandaVision is getting billed as doing. nick fury likely for secret invasion

    And BP had a huge cultural real-life impact. He's become a staple member of the Avengers when before he was probably (as I said) a C or D list character before.

    Again, I don't disagree that they need to push harder and give them the lime-light (and chance) to resonate with the readership/audience. This is not dissimilar to why I think it's important for them to show up in the MCU and in major roles.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    And the reason they usually change the red hair characters if we are honest, is because they are usually sidekicks or the best friend, or don't have that many lines. Jimmy Olsen. LMAO
    So are you trying to say that Daredevil is also a sidekick because of his red hair?

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    So are you trying to say that Daredevil is also a sidekick because of his red hair?
    Are you saying Charlie Cox wasn't daredevil because he was brunette in the Netflix show?
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  7. #97
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    Starfire is not human and her skin color doesn't exist in nature (Trump jokes notwithstanding), they can't change an ethnicity that doesn't actually exist.
    They could have hired an actress with fair skin and colored her orange to make her look more like Starfire but they made a choice to go with an appearance that is black. I think its a fair example. They didnt go the Gamora route like Marvel did. DC did not erase the actress' race and as such it is a very present visual for the character on screen

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    And the reason they usually change the red hair characters if we are honest, is because they are usually sidekicks or the best friend, or don't have that many lines. Jimmy Olsen. LMAO
    Pretty much lol. Race changing side characters is killing two birds with one stone. Get praise from the usual subjects about diversity and representation while keeping the main leads white and appealing to the core audience. There's nothing brave about making a tertiary character black when they get virtually no development and remain white in every other medium they appear in.

    This is why uplifting original characters is always the most logical thing to do, especially in non-comic mediums like animation and movies. Why race change Jean when you can put some investment into M or Dani and have them stand shoulder to shoulder with the originals? The Justice League cartoon did that when they brought in C-listers like John Stewart and Hawkgirl or in the MCU where Black Panther is shown to be as capable as Cap.
    Last edited by chief12d; 01-21-2021 at 08:52 AM.

  9. #99
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    It's really funny how people, here are only complaining about characters being black(even if they do have red hair) but never complain, about the change in hair colour, or when for some reason characters get blue eyes, or height changes, or even when the adapted character's skin is slightly lighter. It's almost like... you resent black people...

  10. #100
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    Credit to DC. While they kept Mera the same, they changed main character Aquaman to half-Polynesian.
    Though the secondary antagonist was always black in comics.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    They could have hired an actress with fair skin and colored her orange to make her look more like Starfire but they made a choice to go with an appearance that is black. I think its a fair example. They didnt go the Gamora route like Marvel did. DC did not erase the actress' race and as such it is a very present visual for the character on screen
    Yikes, they could have done plenty of stuff, this still doesnt make it a lesser option. You simply imagined starfire as a person with white skin that had been slightly bronzed. That's how you envision starfire, but that's not what starfire is at all.

  12. #102
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyworthnoting View Post
    Yikes, they could have done plenty of stuff, this still doesnt make it a lesser option. You simply imagined starfire as a person with white skin that had been slightly bronzed. That's how you envision starfire, but that's not what starfire is at all.
    I never wrote white woman. Someone with fairer skin can be white, as well as Asian, latina, biracial, native american and even a light skin black woman.

  13. #103
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    Again, I wouldn't agree on the 20 year history. Out of your list Nick Fury, Falcon and War Machine each have impacted story-lines in the greater MU. Is it a huge shift? No but people know them now and they are beginning to draw in fanbases.
    In the case of Falcon and War Machine-folks outside of comics KNOW who they are.
    Falcon has been included in a variety of non-comic stuff. He has toys, been on cartoons and other Marvel merchandise. He also got a trade before CA Winter Soldier. So folks know who he is.
    War Machine too once Iron Man came out.
    See comic book fans think if you don't buy the floppy you don't know comics. I have ran into many folks who know who these guys are and never read a 22 page comic book. Especially when Aquaman was announced.

    The GRIPE many have is when we get someone like a Storm, STATIC, Cyborg, Black Lightning daughters or Monica on a tv show or movie. When folks go LOOKING for material to read with them-there is NONE. None with them as the lead doing more than background duty.

    To piggyback on what Killerbee has said.

    For the ones that scream use who you got, okay when Marvel DOES-guess who does the GREATEST gymnastic routines to NOT read or try the book? Keyword TRY.
    Falcon had a book under his name, Luke Cage and Prowler too. Where was the support?

    For the ones that scream just make new POC, okay when Marvel (and DC) does that WHO does the GREATEST gymnastic routines to NOT read or try those books? In fact HOW MANY try to sabotage those books?
    "I have read Batman for 30 years, I will NOT read that book with DUKE THOMAS in it."
    "I have bought Green Lantern for 25 years. I am DONE-not reading about that BLACK teen Lantern."
    Redjack got an EARFUL over Mosaic. Marvel got CRITICIZED for trying to promote the book at Barnes and Nobles.
    Folks were trying to RILE UP hate for Duke Thomas & Riri Williams.

    And HOW many times have we heard RESPECT the source material?
    Fantastic Four-RESPECT the SOURCE material! We need to END Michael B Jordan's career.
    New Mutants-Sunspot looks FINE to me. What is the issue?

    To pull this back to Jean Grey...

    I think the BEST example of this is Cyborg at DC since 2011.

    He got tossed into Justice League. He did NOTHING. He did NOTHING in his two solos (he did but editorial screw up everything).
    He's an after thought and now is out of Justice League.

    Yet his most popular versions are the cartoon and Doom Patrol versions. Why is that? Because he has folks writing about HIM and treating him like an EQUAL in the cast.

    A black Jean Grey means NOTHING if she is going to be background fodder in books. We see Storm and Monet. If you can't find writers who can do stuff with them-how do I expect you to do ANYTHING with a black Jean Grey?

    I am NOT interested in her keeping SOMEONE'S bed WARM.
    I am NOT interested in her being in a love triangle with hairy guys and guys with glasses and blonde ICE QUEEN.
    I an NOT interested in her being in an ABC after school special about racism, black women hair, BLM, black male bashing (Black Panther already does that), black feminism (see Black Panther) or Real Black Mutants of Marvel (fighting with Storm over bedding Bishop or Synch or Darwin).

    Because that is what we would get-because some editor would think it's TRENDY.

  14. #104
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    In the case of Falcon and War Machine-folks outside of comics KNOW who they are.
    Falcon has been included in a variety of non-comic stuff. He has toys, been on cartoons and other Marvel merchandise. He also got a trade before CA Winter Soldier. So folks know who he is.
    War Machine too once Iron Man came out.
    I dont think they were as well known as you think they were. Their exposure really blew up after the MCU was introduced.

  15. #105
    Mighty Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Are you saying Charlie Cox wasn't daredevil because he was brunette in the Netflix show?
    And THIS is my problem! I did not hear a peep about Daredevil not being a redhead when Charlie Cox was cast. I honestly wish they would have dyed Zendaya’s hair red just so people could expose themselves for their racism.

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