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  1. #1126
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreaded Porcupine View Post
    I definitely sided with the Hulk. I wanted to see him bust everybody up and he did. Especially Wolverine. He banged his brain off of the inside of his skull repeatedly. That was awesome!
    At that point, after what had gone down in Civil War, I wouldn't entirely blame you.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I don’t recall people in the MU siding with the Hulk no matter what reason he had for tearing up New York, and their planet. To me, getting evacuated from your home, in case the Hulk destroys everything in NY because he has a beef with his old team mates, is no reason to side with the Hulk. To me he is the most frightening thing since Galactus, but people in the MU didn’t even see Galactus. Everybody saw the Stone Ship arrive, and then the Hulk busted Starks building like 9/11. And you can’t chase the Hulk away like Terrorists. But that’s just setting up the fear that Hulk instills in the MU.

    When Hawkeye killed Bruce Banner it was seen as a sane response because you know World Breaker Hulk is just under the skin, somewhere. Not that the people of the MU dislike the Hulk, but it’s like keeping a powder keg next door, like in Lebanon last year when that storage factory blew the city apart. You don’t keep the Hulk on Earth. I was more thinking the People of the MU agreed with the Illuminati to send the Hulk to another planet. Killing Banner was the next step.

    But it comes down to what do the people of the MU think is allowable as to justice for super humans? Is execution acceptable? To my mind, the people of the MU made their choice. It’s easier to kill super humans than have them be a threat.

    I know Iron Man had an opinion about that because Tony Stark was afraid the super hero community would get the “Watchmen” happening in the MU and that would eliminate all superhumans altogether, so Tony did not want a trigger point, and letting Hawkeye get away with killing the Hulk was unacceptable to that logic of not starting a process where superhumans became pariahs on Earth. The Earth needed super humans.
    The Hulk is an extreme outlier, yes, but the argument could be made that the destruction he caused was on the Avengers' heads for having tolerated him to the extent that they had, so in that sense, would Heroes Reborn Hyperion be in the right for having killed him so ruthlessly and viciously back in issue 2?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #1127
    Incredible Member kevinism's Avatar
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    These are the same people who want mutants slaughtered so this is just the next step

  3. #1128
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    washington DC still needs some superheroes after this is all over, particularly an African-American presence.
    Headquartered at BLM Plaza. I hear you, but they should make it a permanent feature of 616. We all know the Heroes Reborn universe will be going bye bye at the end of this telling.

  4. #1129
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinism View Post
    These are the same people who want mutants slaughtered so this is just the next step
    Yeah, fair point there.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #1130
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    So now that we're towards the end, what are the best one-shots? I haven't checked any of them out yet.

  6. #1131

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    okay, if Janet is "murder hornet", then who is that Giantess turned to stone in Power Princess' headquarters?
    https://www.cbr.com/squadron-savage-...suicide-squad/

  7. #1132
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    okay, if Janet is "murder hornet", then who is that Giantess turned to stone in Power Princess' headquarters?
    The Janet van Dyne appreciation thread says Murder Hornet is Rita De Mara, while Jan was Giantess.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post5577347

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  8. #1133
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    At that point, after what had gone down in Civil War, I wouldn't entirely blame you.



    The Hulk is an extreme outlier, yes, but the argument could be made that the destruction he caused was on the Avengers' heads for having tolerated him to the extent that they had, so in that sense, would Heroes Reborn Hyperion be in the right for having killed him so ruthlessly and viciously back in issue 2?
    Definitely Hyperion killing Hulk was not in the right, almost certainly because Hyperion is a puppet of Mephisto.

    But the other argument is about whether tolerating the Hulk has been a mistake by the Avengers, all these years? This is a much more esoteric question about the relative merits or destructiveness of superheroes, and I would class the Hulk in the superheroes category. I never had to address the relative worth of the Hulk before, because Banner has almost been an anti-hero in his destructive output over his life. What do you class as deserving of elimination as to super humans?

    I will answer this question as firstly Tony Stark answered it in CW11 - superheroes need to act freely, or all super threats that arrive would overwhelm the Earth. Thatís point 1. The other answer is more fleeting in that it has to deal with the purpose the superheroes were put on Earth. You canít remove the superheroes in a Watchmen-like purge, because you need them for when the Death Celestial returns for another round with superheroes. Is the Hulk that vital that one superhero missing is going to make any difference? The answer is, every supervillain is essential to the support of the superheroes because supervillains exercise superheroes to the point they are ready. Hulk is one of those exercises, so he is essential.

  9. #1134

  10. #1135
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Always wanted Power Princess to be more powerful than any other member of the Squadron Supreme. Well, everyone except for the magical version of Arcanna. Maybe we'll see that happen with the real Power Princess.

  11. #1136

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Always wanted Power Princess to be more powerful than any other member of the Squadron Supreme. Well, everyone except for the magical version of Arcanna. Maybe we'll see that happen with the real Power Princess.
    what are the chances that a non-evil-ish "wear pants!" version of PP will end up in the regular 616 Earth? The "gentleman's agreement" (or whatever it is) that Marvel not publish something "too close" to one of their major characters comes across as pretentious nonsense. If Marvel can make an ongoing series about a warrior princess Zarda, why not?

  12. #1137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    The Janet van Dyne appreciation thread says Murder Hornet is Rita De Mara, while Jan was Giantess.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post5577347

    And…

    Actually, no. Murder Hornet has been confirmed to be Cassie Lang, Scott Lang's daughter. The helmet and the name are a clear reference to her current heroic identity as "Hornet".

    Quote Originally Posted by marvelprince View Post
    I think at least some of the world will end up turning. We’re shown that the team on some level knows things aren’t right but because this world is safe they’re willing to go along with whatever happened. But I think once the depths of the manipulation are revealed they’ll sacrifice themselves to revert things back to the way they were. Probably not all but I at least see Nighthawk going that way.
    You call it "safe", but I call it "defendless". Sure, Marvel Universe can be a whole mess with so many disasters happening continuosly, but these crisis actually keep each other in check in some twisted way. I mean, if the world would really be safer with the Squadron Supreme, then I believe things like the Civil Wars, War of the Realms and several other events that shook the planet in the past shouldn't have come to pass in the first place. And yet, even if the players were different, the same games still happened.

    Besides, I don't see Mephisto is really using the Squadron to "protect" the world, but rather to take out threats to his power. I mean, just think about it:
    + Dr Doom lost his country and power, and considering Doom has been one of the few mortals who has managed to defeat and humilliate Mephisto (like the time he freed his mother from Hell), Mephisto would surely want him removed from the playfield.
    + Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet proved to be powerful enough to even hurt Mephisto, and that's why he surely made Dr Spectrum to get rid of him.
    + Dr Strange in the Sorcerer Supreme and a great threat for Mephisto, so he removed him from the picture and replaced him with his puppet, Blurr.
    + Hulk and the other Gammas came to existence through the influence of the One Below All, a demonic entity which power matches Mephisto, apparently. So by taking the Hulk out before more Gammas were created, he took away the source of the One Below All's power.

    Several errors in this world's history proves there's no way the Squadron might have defeated some of the threats we saw them defeat, so it clearly had to be tricks and manipulations from Mephisto. Take these examples:
    + Galactus came to Earth originally because of the accident that created the Fantastic Four, but since the Fantastic Four never came to exitence in this reality, then technically Galactus should have never come to Earth. Therefore, Galactus must be in other part of the universe along with the Silver Surfer, and the one killed by Hyperion was surely a facsimile created by Mephisto to make it look like he killed him. But there's NO WAY you can kill Galactus just like that without causing a disturbance in the Universe.
    + Knull's existence was previous the universe itself, and that includes Mephisto himself. There's no way Mephisto could have defeated Knull, much less a pawn of him. Besides, in this world, it appears Venom's symbiote never reproduced itself; as there's no sign of Carnage and other symbiotes. Without Carnage, Knull's main servant, there's no way Knull managed to escape his prision. Therefore, the real Knull must be still imprisioned and the one petrified by Power Princess must be a fake, like the Galactus killed by Hyperion.

    Finally, the absence of several key superheroes made their number won't be enough to balance the evil influences in the world. Just think about it:
    + Without Spider-Man, Flash Thompson was never to become a hero by himself. Instead, he killed Miles Warren and became the new Jackal. (Disgusting).
    + Without Captain America, several heroes didn't find a way to find a better purpose in life with the Avengers. Examples of that are Ant Man (Scott Lang), Black Widow (Natasha Romanoff), Hawkeye (Clint Barton) and even Tigra.
    + Since Clint Barton never reformed, it seems Katie Bishop was never inspired to became a hero. Although, technically, she could find a new "mentor" in Golden Archer.

    Almost forgot, Mephisto also made sure to erradicate from existence several members of the "next generation of heroes" that could be a threat for him.
    + The Fantastic Four nevear gained their powers, and although there's no confirmation, something happened to Sue Storm. Which means either Franklin Richards (who is powerful enough to hurt Mephisto), and Valeria (who is incredible smart) never existed.
    + By making the relationship between Luke Cage and Jessica Jones fall apart, he removed Daniella Cage from existence; and we have seen her become a true hero is several alternative dimensions, as Captain America and Thor.
    + Since Scarlet Witch never reformed, and it appears Vision never existed, her children never existed. And neither did their incarnations as Wiccan and Speed. They surely must be a treat for Mephisto, especially Wiccan.

  13. #1138
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    what are the chances that a non-evil-ish "wear pants!" version of PP will end up in the regular 616 Earth? The "gentleman's agreement" (or whatever it is) that Marvel not publish something "too close" to one of their major characters comes across as pretentious nonsense. If Marvel can make an ongoing series about a warrior princess Zarda, why not?
    The line between homage and copyright infringement is a fine one, even to the point of being indistinct to a jury. This really is just a question of when will DC shrug. They could have shut Marvel down on the matter decades ago, but didn't. I thought for sure they'd tap Marvel on the shoulder when the Squadron Supreme appeared in the Avengers cartoon -- television being a medium that reaches a much wider audience and having a greater potential to take food off of DC's plate -- but again, DC remained stoic. Could DC continue to say and do nothing while Marvel published a Power Princess ongoing? Sure. But Marvel's counsel, to say nothing of the counsel of their parent company, are probably advising the creative teams not to push their luck. Just because DC hasn't said or done anything for decades doesn't mean that they've ceded their IP rights. But who knows, maybe there is an agreement that no one knows about between Marvel and DC to use the SS and related characters?

  14. #1139

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Just because DC hasn't said or done anything for decades doesn't mean that they've ceded their IP rights.
    In a way it does, actually. Hence the example that I think somebody posted earlier about how when Marvel published the Squadron Supreme miniseries and DC sued them and it was determined that only the Martian Manhunter clone wasn't grandfathered in by the previous issues they had published

  15. #1140
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Actually, no. Murder Hornet has been confirmed to be Cassie Lang, Scott Lang's daughter. The helmet and the name are a clear reference to her current heroic identity as "Hornet".



    You call it "safe", but I call it "defendless". Sure, Marvel Universe can be a whole mess with so many disasters happening continuosly, but these crisis actually keep each other in check in some twisted way. I mean, if the world would really be safer with the Squadron Supreme, then I believe things like the Civil Wars, War of the Realms and several other events that shook the planet in the past shouldn't have come to pass in the first place. And yet, even if the players were different, the same games still happened.

    Besides, I don't see Mephisto is really using the Squadron to "protect" the world, but rather to take out threats to his power. I mean, just think about it:
    + Dr Doom lost his country and power, and considering Doom has been one of the few mortals who has managed to defeat and humilliate Mephisto (like the time he freed his mother from Hell), Mephisto would surely want him removed from the playfield.
    + Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet proved to be powerful enough to even hurt Mephisto, and that's why he surely made Dr Spectrum to get rid of him.
    + Dr Strange in the Sorcerer Supreme and a great threat for Mephisto, so he removed him from the picture and replaced him with his puppet, Blurr.
    + Hulk and the other Gammas came to existence through the influence of the One Below All, a demonic entity which power matches Mephisto, apparently. So by taking the Hulk out before more Gammas were created, he took away the source of the One Below All's power.

    Several errors in this world's history proves there's no way the Squadron might have defeated some of the threats we saw them defeat, so it clearly had to be tricks and manipulations from Mephisto. Take these examples:
    + Galactus came to Earth originally because of the accident that created the Fantastic Four, but since the Fantastic Four never came to exitence in this reality, then technically Galactus should have never come to Earth. Therefore, Galactus must be in other part of the universe along with the Silver Surfer, and the one killed by Hyperion was surely a facsimile created by Mephisto to make it look like he killed him. But there's NO WAY you can kill Galactus just like that without causing a disturbance in the Universe.
    + Knull's existence was previous the universe itself, and that includes Mephisto himself. There's no way Mephisto could have defeated Knull, much less a pawn of him. Besides, in this world, it appears Venom's symbiote never reproduced itself; as there's no sign of Carnage and other symbiotes. Without Carnage, Knull's main servant, there's no way Knull managed to escape his prision. Therefore, the real Knull must be still imprisioned and the one petrified by Power Princess must be a fake, like the Galactus killed by Hyperion.

    Finally, the absence of several key superheroes made their number won't be enough to balance the evil influences in the world. Just think about it:
    + Without Spider-Man, Flash Thompson was never to become a hero by himself. Instead, he killed Miles Warren and became the new Jackal. (Disgusting).
    + Without Captain America, several heroes didn't find a way to find a better purpose in life with the Avengers. Examples of that are Ant Man (Scott Lang), Black Widow (Natasha Romanoff), Hawkeye (Clint Barton) and even Tigra.
    + Since Clint Barton never reformed, it seems Katie Bishop was never inspired to became a hero. Although, technically, she could find a new "mentor" in Golden Archer.

    Almost forgot, Mephisto also made sure to erradicate from existence several members of the "next generation of heroes" that could be a threat for him.
    + The Fantastic Four nevear gained their powers, and although there's no confirmation, something happened to Sue Storm. Which means either Franklin Richards (who is powerful enough to hurt Mephisto), and Valeria (who is incredible smart) never existed.
    + By making the relationship between Luke Cage and Jessica Jones fall apart, he removed Daniella Cage from existence; and we have seen her become a true hero is several alternative dimensions, as Captain America and Thor.
    + Since Scarlet Witch never reformed, and it appears Vision never existed, her children never existed. And neither did their incarnations as Wiccan and Speed. They surely must be a treat for Mephisto, especially Wiccan.
    That's a pretty interesting breakdown of things as they stand in the Heroes Reborn universe and how it relates to the 616 now that Mephisto is the literal God of this "brave new world."
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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