Heroes Reborn is coming back

[Reviresco]

Like I said. You not liking idea. That's fair. That's subjective and you're welcome to your opinion.

Where's the internal logic though?

He's laid that pretty clearly. He's framed Mephisto as an ancient and consistent enemy of the Avengers, which have consistently been made up of certain specific ancient/cosmic energies on earth. So the short logic of why the Phoenix came is Namor called it and Moon Knight intercepted. The logic of why it needs a host is because of this overarching Mephisto storyline that all these specific forces/energies can sense (which T'Challa has noted). Moon Knight then used the last of whatever random cosmic moon energy/will he had to surrender the Phoenix. Hence the motivation for the tournament. The Phoenix was on earth with several willing/interested hosts, hence the tournament.

In addition, it wasn't actually a fighting tournament, it just presented as such. Hence how Shang-Chi could win a round without ever fighting. The Phoenix was learning the various characters, and eventually choosing Echo. They state that pretty clearly. Some of the Phoenix's preferred hosts rejected it, and the ones that wanted it most were uninteresting. They painted the tournament as a sham from the beginning.

Like I said. You can think ALL of these are BAD ideas. That's perfectly fine. But Aaron doesn't just disregard the logic. He has Echo explain all of this. He has T'Challa explain all of this. There's an answer to every why you could ask that he spells out. Within the story, he lays seeds for what'll happen later.

The issue? A lot happens in a few issues, and then he very much wipes the table clean and starts a completely new story with little room for the characters to react. The fact that we just finished another pseudo-Avengers arc and the team has barely gotten to explore the fact that Echo/Phoenix is on the team now is a stylistic choice that I can understand people not liking.

Your argument is basically if Jason Aaron SAYS something it is logical. That's not the definition of logical.

The explanation for the choice of Echo was that Phoenix lacks imagination and needed someone whose power is copying stuff, hence lacking even more in imagination, to carry out its path of destruction. Again. Zero logic and sense.

If the Phoenix was answering Namor, then it makes no sense that it would be 'intercepted' by whatever rando version of Khonshu Aaron is using. Aaron has the Phoenix being stronger than Thor and the gods, so it doesn't make sense that it gets stopped by MOON KNIGHT??? Mephisto has nothing to do with Phoenix 'needing' a host. Logically, if the Phoenix is answering Namor (another dumb idea which makes no sense), then logically, it should have gone to Namor, so how is 'getting released' by Moon Knight (dumbness stacked on dumbness) prompting a tournament, which is about winners and losers, not about learning about characters. The Phoenix is TELEPATHIC, it already knows about these characters. And none of these characters were willing or interested, except Namor. All these characters were randomly plucked out of the blue, with no logic except Aaron liked the characters or was pushing MCU characters. I mean, seriously, Shana and ZABU???

[Reviresco]

“Vibranium remembers being an asteroid therefore I can now use super speed” I should’t have to say anything more, I started to read avengers in the 80’s and I swear I never had to turn off my critical thinking in order to enjoy a good comic adventure.

Aaron A$$ Pull = Logic.

Not.

[Tracks]

Your argument is basically if Jason Aaron SAYS something it is logical. That's not the definition of logical.

The explanation for the choice of Echo was that Phoenix lacks imagination and needed someone whose power is copying stuff, hence lacking even more in imagination, to carry out its path of destruction. Again. Zero logic and sense.

If the Phoenix was answering Namor, then it makes no sense that it would be 'intercepted' by whatever rando version of Khonshu Aaron is using. Aaron has the Phoenix being stronger than Thor and the gods, so it doesn't make sense that it gets stopped by MOON KNIGHT??? Mephisto has nothing to do with Phoenix 'needing' a host. Logically, if the Phoenix is answering Namor (another dumb idea which makes no sense), then logically, it should have gone to Namor, so how is 'getting released' by Moon Knight (dumbness stacked on dumbness) prompting a tournament, which is about winners and losers, not about learning about characters. The Phoenix is
TELEPATHIC, it already knows about these characters. And none of these characters were willing or interested, except Namor. All these characters were randomly plucked out of the blue, with no logic except Aaron liked the characters or was pushing MCU characters. I mean, seriously, Shana and ZABU???

What? No. It seems like you're confusing things you find poorly developed as illogical.

Case example:

*Character A and Character B fight*

You: Why would they fight? They've been established as friends for a while? There's no logic.

Me: The panel before the fight, Character A says he didn't appreciate this thing Character B did at the beginning of the issue. That's the logic.

What you're saying is these particular threads are not WELL DEVELOPED. They happen too quickly. We can't see them coming because there aren't many threads leading to a particular event. Yea. That's Aaron's intentional approach of wanting each arc to feel like an event, which leaves him no room to develop the climaxes of said events, because each arc wipes the board clean. Perfectly fine to not appreciate that. Perfectly fine if you think that you think a good story should value you those things, and so you don't enjoy the writing.

Again though. A lack of development, which is a legitimate criticism, is NOT the same as a lack of logic. You're then just shoe-horning in things to fit your imagined criticism because this:

The explanation for the choice of Echo was that Phoenix lacks imagination and needed someone whose power is copying stuff, hence lacking even more in imagination

Never happens. This is your interpretation. Echo says her diversity of physical acumen makes her a unique host, which intrigues the Phoenix. The idea that mimicry = no imagination is a subjective interpretation, and a weird one. Beyond that, you're overlooking the intentional connection to her Cheyenne heritage and what the Phoenix represents.

The rest of your criticism isn't one of logic. It's one of preference. Why does it make no sense that Moon Knight sensed and intercepted the Phoenix? You're offering no logic.

Why should the Phoenix logically go to Namor? If the Phoenix operates as an unconscious/inanimate being that simply responds to a call, it makes perfect sense that someone could intercept that call the same way actual energy can be intercepted. If the Phoenix has agency and particular interests (cosmic chaos, etc.) it makes even MORE sense that someone that sends out another call as the Phoenix arrives while they're at the heart of a chaotic/mystical battle would be able to intercept the Phoenix. Aaron created an extraordinarily unique set of circumstances that primed this set of events. Like I said, they're not well developed, and the unique nature of them means he often then decides to dictate the rules of these given encounters. That's not illogic. It's you imagining a different set of rules that YOU think would make more sense.

What does telepathy have to do with understanding how someone would approach a novel situation that they haven't been in before? Telepathy isn't omniscience. Moreover the idea that the other characters didn't want the Phoenix is just wrong. Yea a lot of your criticism is just...bad.

It's ok if you don't like it. The bulk of what you're couching as "logical inconsistencies" are personal preference.

[Daedra]

Your argument is basically if Jason Aaron SAYS something it is logical. That's not the definition of logical.

The explanation for the choice of Echo was that Phoenix lacks imagination and needed someone whose power is copying stuff, hence lacking even more in imagination, to carry out its path of destruction. Again. Zero logic and sense.

If the Phoenix was answering Namor, then it makes no sense that it would be 'intercepted' by whatever rando version of Khonshu Aaron is using. Aaron has the Phoenix being stronger than Thor and the gods, so it doesn't make sense that it gets stopped by MOON KNIGHT??? Mephisto has nothing to do with Phoenix 'needing' a host. Logically, if the Phoenix is answering Namor (another dumb idea which makes no sense), then logically, it should have gone to Namor, so how is 'getting released' by Moon Knight (dumbness stacked on dumbness) prompting a tournament, which is about winners and losers, not about learning about characters. The Phoenix is TELEPATHIC, it already knows about these characters. And none of these characters were willing or interested, except Namor. All these characters were randomly plucked out of the blue, with no logic except Aaron liked the characters or was pushing MCU characters. I mean, seriously, Shana and ZABU???

So much truth and all in one post, I really should congratulate you sir on mastering the patience to recollect all those nonsensical plot points

[Anthony W]

Your argument is basically if Jason Aaron SAYS something it is logical. That's not the definition of logical.

The explanation for the choice of Echo was that Phoenix lacks imagination and needed someone whose power is copying stuff, hence lacking even more in imagination, to carry out its path of destruction. Again. Zero logic and sense.

If the Phoenix was answering Namor, then it makes no sense that it would be 'intercepted' by whatever rando version of Khonshu Aaron is using. Aaron has the Phoenix being stronger than Thor and the gods, so it doesn't make sense that it gets stopped by MOON KNIGHT??? Mephisto has nothing to do with Phoenix 'needing' a host. Logically, if the Phoenix is answering Namor (another dumb idea which makes no sense), then logically, it should have gone to Namor, so how is 'getting released' by Moon Knight (dumbness stacked on dumbness) prompting a tournament, which is about winners and losers, not about learning about characters. The Phoenix is TELEPATHIC, it already knows about these characters. And none of these characters were willing or interested, except Namor. All these characters were randomly plucked out of the blue, with no logic except Aaron liked the characters or was pushing MCU characters. I mean, seriously, Shana and ZABU???

How...did you retain so much terrible story?!

[Daedra]

How...did you retain so much terrible story?!

That’s what I was wondering as well, after reading that list I marveled at the bad stuff I have flushed out of my system, all that is left is the ugly sensation of money spent for something not worth the paper it is printed on.

[JudicatorPrime]

“Vibranium remembers being an asteroid therefore I can now use super speed” I should’t (sic) have to say anything more, I started to read avengers in the 80’s and I swear I never had to turn off my critical thinking in order to enjoy a good comic adventure.

Wow. That happened? That actually happened??? Not in a Golden Age comic book, or one of the Super Friends cartoons from the 1970s, but in the present, 2021? And it wasn't intended as satire or sarcasm in any way? Just, wow.

[Kurolegacy]

Wow. That happened? That actually happened??? Not in a Golden Age comic book, or one of the Super Friends cartoons from the 1970s, but in the present, 2021? And it wasn't intended as satire or sarcasm in any way? Just, wow.

Let’s be real, with Aaron, logic in storytelling has been thrown out the window and replaced with ‘things happen because I said so whether it makes sense or not’.

[Tracks]

I wonder how the bulk of Black Panther fans reacted to said event https://community.cbr.com/showthread...n-2021/page514

[jackolover]

Not correct.
Well the marvel vs dc crossover marvel won most of the fights.
They won.
Thor beat shazam,thor beat superman,then superman beat thor,so it was tie then right after that the avengers beat the crap out of superman.
Hercules beat wonder woman.
Thanos vs darkseid,nobody won.
Hulk vs the superman the last crossover hulk was professor hulk and weaker then savage hulk and superman said it took everything to put him down.
Silver surfer beat green lantern kyle.
In other crossovers venom beat superman,spideman beat superboy,wolverine beat lobo,storm beat wonderwoman.
Anyway since then those marvel characters have become more powerful overtime.
The hulk today is more powerful hulk from any of those hulks in crossovers for example.

Like I said, that was my impression. DC certainly seemed to take the high moral ground from Marvel characters in those Events though. Marvel was represented as the dirty, little brother to my mind.

[jackolover]

I had a lot of problems with Aaron’s Prehistoric Avengers, (and another thing, there were no humanoids a million years ago), because it completely upends the historicity that Fraction put in place about the superheroes only being put on Earth by the Omega council in 1961, not leaked out of a Celestial millions of years ago. This completely throws out all the other Celestial history about Eternals and Deviants, refuses to identify Inhumans, and why weren’t there superheroes all the way from Million year Avengers up to the 1961?

If Aaron wants to make new Marvel continuity, then let him justify it by explaining what makes his interpretation better than all the creators before him.

[vitruvian]

I had a lot of problems with Aaron’s Prehistoric Avengers, (and another thing, there were no humanoids a million years ago), because it completely upends the historicity that Fraction put in place about the superheroes only being put on Earth by the Omega council in 1961, not leaked out of a Celestial millions of years ago. This completely throws out all the other Celestial history about Eternals and Deviants, refuses to identify Inhumans, and why weren’t there superheroes all the way from Million year Avengers up to the 1961?

If Aaron wants to make new Marvel continuity, then let him justify it by explaining what makes his interpretation better than all the creators before him.

I think Fraction and 1961 is contradicted by just about everything - including Steve Rogers and the Invaders.

[Digifiend]

Yeah, there were superheroes in World War II and the Agents of Atlas started in the 1950s (hence the name - Marvel was called Atlas back then). That 1961 date is bull.

[vitruvian]

Maybe Heroes Reborn was an exercise in What If you didn’t have super heroes?

Not in the slightest, since they did have superheroes.

[Ursalink]

"Black Cat Annual" seems to indicate Nighthawk might be after the Infinity Stones too, which has complete sense if he's aiming to restore the "Heroes Reborn" reality and the Infinity Stones might allow him to do it.

This Squadron Supreme are clearly "broken toys", after what we saw at the end of this arc. Nighthawk is extremely dangerous on the loose, as his mind is even more twisted than Batman. Personally, I'm tired of them being "competition" for the Avengers when both teams should work together. I just realized, maybe there's a way to make this Squadron to redempt somehow; basically, making them facing the people they supposely cared in the Heroes Reborn's reality.

+ With his atomic vision, I'm not sure if Hyperion could know Spider-Man is Peter Parker, as nothing would stop him from seeing his face. It would be interesting if Spidey manages to get his motto "With gret power comes great responsibility" on Hyperion and realize the error of his previous way. Also, it would be interesting if Hyperion faces the fact that Peter Parker was never his friend in the Heroes Reborn's world, and he actually hated him because his recklessness caused Aunt May to die.

+ It would be interesting if, somehow, Nighthawk could face Falcon. "Heroes Reborn" adapted "The Night Gwen Stacy died" to mirror the death of Jason Todd, so it would be interesting if Nighthawk finds himself uncapable to battle Falcon. Of course, the counteraction here would be Gwen Stacy being dead (unless he meets Spider-Gwen), and if he realizes the similarities between Gwen's and Falcon's deaths, maybe Spider-Man could bring some sense into Nighthawk. (Although, being such a lunatic, I doubt it).

+ The other members of the Squadron Supreme don't have anyone "special" in their lives. Blurr's only option would be Mary Jane, and I'm NOT willing to allow that happen. NOT IN A MILLION YEARS!! Doctor Spectrum could face Nova (Sam Alexander), but I'm not sure that could work. And about Power Princess, well, she's completely insane! The closest thing could be Kamalah, but this Princess is so obsess with combat that nothing would work on her.

What do you think?