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  1. #61
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    For me-as a complete outsider looking in- it is the following:
    A large cast, most of whom I know nothing about.
    Complicated continuity combined with complicated reboots to address said continuity.
    I can't name a single Legion villain.
    Whenever members of the Legion guest in other books they come off as incredibly basic. They rarely depict anything more than generic superhero archetypes in their personalities in the short time that they show up.

  2. #62
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scribbleMind View Post
    For me-as a complete outsider looking in- it is the following:
    A large cast, most of whom I know nothing about.
    Complicated continuity combined with complicated reboots to address said continuity.
    I can't name a single Legion villain.
    Whenever members of the Legion guest in other books they come off as incredibly basic. They rarely depict anything more than generic superhero archetypes in their personalities in the short time that they show up.
    Not even the Fatal Five?

    I don't think the Legion guest star that much...

  3. #63
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    Nope. I have no idea who the Fatal Five are. When I gave Legion a shot in the long ago, new 52, they either hadn't shown up or hadn't fully formed before I dropped the book.

    Idk how much they show up everywhere else, but I think you can bet on them interacting with the Superman family of books at least once a year.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Is it the goofy code names? I think it’s the fact that it seems so disconnected to the rest of the DCU. Then again you can make the same case for Batman Beyond as well, and that seems to do okay.
    It's too big for ongoing stories. There are a minimum of 30+ legionnaires and every one of them is someone's favorite. The Legion can't really sustain an ongoing anymore because the audience is too segregated.

    It should work like the various STAR TREK series with different "ships" with different "crews" and different missions, all told in discreet titles that SOMETIMES culminate in a giant crossover event but mostly don't.

  5. #65
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    It's not that the Legion itself is a hard sell. If anything, the conceptual underpinnings of the Legion are fascinating and could absolutely serve as the backbone of a successful franchise (and have in the past). I mean, at one point in time, the Legion was one of DC's best-selling team books, easily outperforming the JLA, silly names and all.

    The problem, instead, lies with the fact that for a while now, the Legion has been mismanaged. One reboot after another does not signal confidence in the brand. There's also the whole tug of war between whether the Legion should be supporting characters of Superman or if they should be their own thing. Personally, I think they should be their own thing, with the tangential link to Superman always being there.

    However, the bottom line is that there isn't really wrong with the Legion inherently. A vast superheroic organization with an array of likeable characters and set in a futuristic society sets the imagination afire. But, they just need to have consistent management behind them that marries what they have been with what they will be.

  6. #66
    Incredible Member wonder39's Avatar
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    I find the arguments of " too many characters i know nothing about" or " too much history" so funny. Coming from the viewpoint of a kid who srarted reading comics in the 70s, almost every main book had been around decades before me. ...., and coming to the Legion around 1981ish, that was a lot of back history.

    But you would try a book, or read sonething exciting and want to learn about these back stories, and search out backissues. There would be brief explanations ( " as seen in issue 356!") When something was referrenced......but it seems like everyone wants to just present something new and easily digestible....but it's also so lazy.

    The constant reboots haven't helped for sure. Ive tried to like the new book, and i like it's vibe, but it's sooooo different thst it can be hard to figure out who is whom. Some sort of single issue " Who's Who in the LSH" with just illustrations, brief histories and bios would go a long way.

    People read comics differently now. There's barely any content in a comic now. And maybe there isn't a good way to cater to today's market with a LSH book. But that's a pity, because there's a wealth of fun and potential there.
    And yes this all seems very " ok boomer" but i'm Gen X...lol.
    Last edited by wonder39; 01-24-2021 at 02:38 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by walk View Post
    It's too much man, you can't flood the uninitated with about 30 plus characters, it's why my eyes always glaze-over whenever the Legion showed up as it just becomes an assualt of strange names and colours. I can tell their's a deep passion for the team but their appeal just get's lost in sea of characters.
    Legion, though, was never written to overwhelm anyone. If someone thinks otherwise, I guess they happened upon a unique issue. Typically, a story would focus on smaller groups for the main story. Some other characters could appear in subplots, but it wasn't as if each issue featured 30 characters whose names a reader couldn't recall by the end. Part of the charm was that a character might only get a few memorable appearances in a year -- while others were basically always around.

  8. #68
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    Legion's biggest problem is not the concept. It's the delivery. Good comics are good comics.

    Bendis's approach has been just okay. It's just not good enough to make up for replacing or re-engineering classic versions of characters. Frankly, though, I don't think anyone can really reboot the team by trashing its past. Build upon what existed, but don't repeat it and don't be tied down by it.

  9. #69
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonder39 View Post
    I find the arguments of " too many characters i know nothing about" or " too much history" so funny. Coming from the viewpoint of a kid who srarted reading comics in the 70s, almost every main book had been around decades before me. ...., and coming to the Legion around 1981ish, that was a lot of back history.

    But you would try a book, or read sonething exciting and want to learn about these back stories, and search out backissues. There would be brief explanations ( " as seen in issue 356!") When something was referrenced......but it seems like everyone wants to just present something new and easily digestible....but it's also so lazy.

    The constant reboots haven't helped for sure. Ive tried to like the new book, and i like it's vibe, but it's sooooo different thst it can be hard to figure out who is whom. Some sort of single issue " Who's Who in the LSH" with just illustrations, brief histories and bios would go a long way.

    People read comics differently now. There's barely any content in a comic now. And maybe there isn't a good way to cater to today's market with a LSH book. But that's a pity, because there's a wealth of fun and potential there.
    And yes this all seems very " ok boomer" but i'm Gen X...lol.
    I agree with all of this.

    When I came into Legion in 1984, right before Crisis hit, I was limited to whatever comics I could find at the local gas stations.
    The first issue of the new series that launched that year would probably have been an okay introduction to the team... but we had no comic shops.
    My first issue was #316. And it barely even featured the main characters. It was mostly Cosmic Boy and the Subs.

    Looking at Mike's Amazing World of Comics (to save me time), I was introduced to the following characters in that issue:
    Cosmic Boy, Dawnstar, Lightning Lad, Mon-El, Saturn Girl, Wildfire, Laurel Kent, Magnetic Kid, Polar Boy, Night Girl, Stone Boy, Bouncing Boy, Blok and White Witch.

    Only three of these would become some of my favorites: Dawnstar, Wildfire and White Witch. And I still haven't met the rest of my favorites. Shadow Lass, Timber Wolf, and Star Boy haven't appeared, yet.

    Timber Wolf, Shadow Lass and Starboy would be introduced to me two months later in #318. Apparently, they were all busy in the opening arc of the new series. But I didn't know what FOMO meant back then, so it didn't bother me.
    I don't think FOMO entered the picture until I was able to drive to another city and discover comic shops. Shops could give you massive FOMO. Especially if you're broke.
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  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I think the endless reboots are a part of the problem... The first reboot works really well for me, probably better than any other DC reboot including Superman, etc. though I'll admit that the choice to get rid of Matter-Eater Lad and Bouncing Boy still bugs me a lot, and I can't deny that basically without Superboy some real charm was irrevocably lost, but overall that second Legion really holds up incredibly well to me!

    The "threeboot" though, feels more like it just kind of happened in my opinion? It's not like the previous Legion series was at a point where a reboot was organic, if you ask me. Follow that up only a few years later with the retroboot, then a few years after that with whatever the hell the New 52 did with them, which had at least two distinct Legions, plus a whole new reboot a few years ago... That's one reboot at a solid ending point after almost forty years of consistency, followed up around ten years later by a succession of four or five different Legions within a decade! It's not that comic fans can't or don't get into that kind of variance, but it can also be really paralyzing.

    I fell in love with the Legion a lot with the animated series, because Teen Super-Heroes in Space in the Future was just straight up an easy sell for me, and with a young Superman to boot? Sign me up! But I guess that strength of concept alone doesn't allow everyone to just ignore the morass of convoluted history the team has; oh well.

    'Til a new, stronger version of the Legion comes to stay, I guess I'm in the "Your Favorite DC Property Never Gets A Book And When They Finally Do, You Don't Even Like It That Much" club.
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  11. #71
    Mighty Member Mike's Avatar
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    When I first started reading the Legion all those years ago.
    It had a LARGE cast.
    It was set in the FUTURE.
    It had over 20 years of stories behind it.
    I started reading, Figured out things as I went along.
    And really started enjoying the book.
    A good writer should be able to do all of the above.
    It has been done before.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by scribbleMind View Post
    For me-as a complete outsider looking in- it is the following:
    A large cast, most of whom I know nothing about.
    Complicated continuity combined with complicated reboots to address said continuity.
    I can't name a single Legion villain.
    Whenever members of the Legion guest in other books they come off as incredibly basic. They rarely depict anything more than generic superhero archetypes in their personalities in the short time that they show up.
    First time I’ve ever heard a comics reader, at least one that visits a dc comics forum, not know at least one LoSH villain.

    Mordru, the Fatal Five and Legion of Super Villains being the easiest to name without ever read the comics.....

  13. #73

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    i don't think there's anything super-unique that makes the sales "lower" now. It's comics in general. There's a whole bunch of stuff out there and it's just tough to break through.

    There could be concurrent mini series with select groups of characters, focusing on one mission or adventure. You could broaden the storylines and not automatically push 25+ people into the background by default. The galaxy is a big place, after all.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    First time Iíve ever heard a comics reader, at least one that visits a dc comics forum, not know at least one LoSH villain.

    Mordru, the Fatal Five and Legion of Super Villains being the easiest to name without ever read the comics.....
    I don't think it should be all that surprising. It isn't weird for me at all to know people who read DC comics that don't know anything about the Legion of Superheroes, nonetheless their villains. In my experience most people pick a corner of the DC universe and stick with that corner, at least for a while. Lots of people will never venture out of it. Some people will only read Batman and never see the word Mordru in their life.

  15. #75
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    A bit of trivia, Darkseid was pretty much a non-entity in the DCU until the JLA and JSA teamed up with the New Gods to fight him in JLA #183-185.
    Up until then, he only appeared in Fourth World related titles, with the exception of one story in Secret Society of Super-Villains.
    And even with the JLA story, he was still considered a New Gods villain and wouldn't appear again until The Great Darkness Saga.

    The Great Darkness Saga is what put Darkseid on the map.
    His shadow would loom over the team long after that story ended.

    I would consider Darkseid a Legion villain even though he's become more associated with Superman and the League since the last couple seasons of Superfriends and the Super Powers comics.
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