Page 6 of 14 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 204
  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,539

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    i don't think there's anything super-unique that makes the sales "lower" now. It's comics in general. There's a whole bunch of stuff out there and it's just tough to break through.

    There could be concurrent mini series with select groups of characters, focusing on one mission or adventure. You could broaden the storylines and not automatically push 25+ people into the background by default. The galaxy is a big place, after all.
    Quote Originally Posted by scribbleMind View Post
    I don't think it should be all that surprising. It isn't weird for me at all to know people who read DC comics that don't know anything about the Legion of Superheroes, nonetheless their villains. In my experience most people pick a corner of the DC universe and stick with that corner, at least for a while. Lots of people will never venture out of it. Some people will only read Batman and never see the word Mordru in their life.
    I think these two posts taken together make up a good point.

    Comics are just extremely dense and lore heavy and kind of hard to break into these days, probably more than ever before, and they have much more to compete with as well!

    The Legion are maybe doubly hard to break into, since their "corner of the DCU" is even more separated from the rest than most other characters' corners are. Making everything more interconnected, like having more crossovers between the Legion and the JLA, wouldn't necessarily help with that though. Yeah it might drum up interest, but another, maybe bigger, function is that it just makes the lore more convoluted.

    I like Hypestyle's idea of doing concurrent mini-series of distinct adventures in which to focus on certain smaller groups of characters, so as not to overwhelm new readers with the Legions' like 30+ member roster.
    Last edited by Adekis; 01-24-2021 at 05:27 PM.
    WHEN YOU DON'T VOTE, IT ISN'T REBELLION, IT'S SURRENDER!

    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  2. #77
    Fantastic Member Jon-El's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    482

    Default

    Got to throw this out. My first ever comic was a 1976 reprint featuring the Composite Superman. In the story, this guy who’s green and has half a Superman costume & half a Batman costume shows up. He beats the heroes because he has the powers of the Legion of Super Heroes. It’s explained that back when Superman was a teen, he was a member of the Legion in the 30th century. Let that sentence sink in a second. At one point in the story, Superman flies into the future to talk to Brainiac 5 who’s an adult now. Eventually, the Composite Superman is defeated and we’re all happy.

    This stuff made perfect sense to my 6 year old mind.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,621

    Default

    In my opinion it's because they don't matter. They are set so far in the future, their adventures never effect the modern era heroes. Yet the effects of the modern era can screw up anything that Legion says is the 'future' so they really REALLy susceptible to retcons more than any other book. Future books always have that issue. the original guardians of the Galaxy suffered with that too.

    Add in the sprawling cast and yeah... It's never been worth the time to get invested in them.

  4. #79
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    849

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    In my opinion it's because they don't matter. They are set so far in the future, their adventures never effect the modern era heroes. Yet the effects of the modern era can screw up anything that Legion says is the 'future' so they really REALLy susceptible to retcons more than any other book. Future books always have that issue. the original guardians of the Galaxy suffered with that too.

    Add in the sprawling cast and yeah... It's never been worth the time to get invested in them.
    Marvel's 2099 never had real problems with that.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,621

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    Marvel's 2099 never had real problems with that.
    1) 2099 never really did that well. It really only lasted about 4 years.

    2) They were never 'the one true future'... Marvel had long established that this was an alternate time line and any time travel stuff always created a new branch... so their futures were always pretty fluid. Didn't help Guardians much... but i think the key with 2099 was that they were their own imprint and did their own team ups and crossovers with their own books helping to make it 'matter' more.

  6. #81
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,672

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    In my opinion it's because they don't matter. They are set so far in the future, their adventures never effect the modern era heroes.

    That only explains why you don't like the Legion. With exception of New 52's misstep, Legion Lost, LSH has always been set in the future -- and sold better than most DC titles in the early 80s. The concept is not, and never has been the problem. The way it has been delivered is and will continue to be the problem.

    At its heart, Legion is a super hero teams book set in a positive future. I think the wheels began to come off when Giffen tried to remake it as a sci-fi series (no team except in name) set in a darker future.

  7. #82
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,872

    Default

    The modern day heroes live in a bubble where they can't change the status quo of the world to the point of unrecognizability. The Legion lives in a world that has been changed so drastically by the modern day heroes it's effects ripple into the 31st century.

    If I had to give any suggestions on how to launch the Legion, it would be to avoid further reboots. The future isn't set in stone so that various rebooted Legion can be considered different 'branches' of the same timeline. Start off small. Maybe a couple of mini series focusing on different combinations of characters in groups no greater than 5. Have them cross over with more popular heroes. Justice League, Teen Titans, etc. See what works and build up from there. Don't get too weird or metaphysical in the first try but don't play it so safe that there is nothing to intrigue the reader. Once people start caring about these characters then start building up to the greater heroes. Look at Justice League, the show started off with seven members, introduced a few guest stars like Aquaman and Metamorpho, once the show was anchored by these characters they were able to expand the roster to include more than 50 characters.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,504

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Is it the goofy code names? I think it’s the fact that it seems so disconnected to the rest of the DCU. Then again you can make the same case for Batman Beyond as well, and that seems to do okay.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I think a big problem is the size. You have dozens of characters, minimum and often too little character focus.

    For me personally, the reboots haven't helped, especially the latest one. How are we supposed to care about a Legion when they can get swiped out by the next big writer?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Too far in the future
    no Batman or any other references to popular heroes legacy
    its hard to make it seem like the stories matter because contemporary DC is always more important

    All these reasons are sort of why LOSH is not popular
    Good points.

    Don't forget: death.

    I don't want to invest emotionally in any character as s/he may die.

    and, unfortunately, LSH does affect the DCU: Roy Thomas couldn't bring Wildfire into continuity in All-Star Squadron because there was a Wildfire in the LSH. TPTB were afraid we readers would get confused.

    Also, I am no fan of Batman Beyond for this very reason; it does not add to the Bat-Family Mythology. Batman Beyond is it's own thing in it's own place....until I see either Curare or Inque in a issue of Detective.

  9. #84
    Standing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    14,637

    Default

    I hate that everything has to be connected. You use to have comics that existed in their own world and didn't have to be connected with everything else. That's still the case with most entertainment. Not every T.V. show on one network has to be connected to every other show on that network. Not every movie from one studio has to be connected with every other movie. Although I grant this is becoming more the case.

    Now D.C. is just one concept with every title attached to that concept. It seems like this is the only way the publisher knows how to sell comic books. It's like every comic they publish is geared toward one individual reader who has a particular interest, so they have to make all the comics that this guy will like. This guy has a lot of money and time to spend on their comics, so they make comics just for him. But if there's anything that doesn't connect with this singular concept, then he won't buy that.
    🇨🇦
    [Exit, pursued
    by a bear.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Rio de Janeiro/Brazil
    Posts
    2,949

    Default

    I think before you try to sell the Legion, you have to come up with to whom you're selling it. Who is the Legion audience? Nostalgia filled 40 or 50 somethings, that, though dwindling in numbers, have followed the team faithfully for decades? Or did The Legion amass a significant number of new readers over the last decade or so? How do you please the nostalgia continuity savvy crowd, withuot scarring off the easily intimidated lazier reader of nowadays, to whom, if it's not tied in with the movies or a game or a TV show, it doesn't really matter? Who would be a good writer, able to please both sides? It's a tough task. But I honestly think that is the biggest problem in comics nowadays. They simply don't know who the comic reader is, what he wants, and what really turns him off.

    Peace

  11. #86
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    11,536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    Good points.

    Don't forget: death.

    I don't want to invest emotionally in any character as s/he may die.

    and, unfortunately, LSH does affect the DCU: Roy Thomas couldn't bring Wildfire into continuity in All-Star Squadron because there was a Wildfire in the LSH. TPTB were afraid we readers would get confused.

    Also, I am no fan of Batman Beyond for this very reason; it does not add to the Bat-Family Mythology. Batman Beyond is it's own thing in it's own place....until I see either Curare or Inque in a issue of Detective.
    And all those negatives-
    ‘Goofy code names’
    ‘So disconnected to rest of the DC Universe’
    ‘Dozens of characters’
    ‘Too far in the future’

    Are positives for some people.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    And all those negatives-
    ‘Goofy code names’
    ‘So disconnected to rest of the DC Universe’
    ‘Dozens of characters’
    ‘Too far in the future’

    Are positives for some people.
    Word. I could care about the goofy codenames (and, as with the wildly varying costumes, *like* that there's a variety, including more 'normal' superhero names like Dawnstar, Wildfire and Timber Wolf), but 'Too far in the future' and 'Dozens of characters' and, especially, ‘So disconnected to rest of the DC Universe’ are absolutely selling points for me.

    I don't *want* a Legion that gets dragged into every ChaosJokerDeathMetalInfiniteCrisisInvasionFinalBla ckestFlashpoint event of the summer. That's what every other damn title is for.

  13. #88
    Concerned Citizen Citizen Kane's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Amongst the people
    Posts
    559

    Default

    I think the biggest problem with the Legion of Superheroes is that it tries way too hard to connect itself to the DC universe, when the opposite is what it needs: it needs to completely decouple itself from the rest of the DC universe, barring some vague or minor references to the past. What I envision is something similar to the Teen Titans animated series or even Young Justice, just set in the future.

    This image right here sets the tone I'd want from the LSH. I mean, come on, it's got everything: mystique, foreboding, grandiose, thrill—what more could you ask for?



    Unfortunately, Bendis' story completely broke away from the expectation set by this stellar cover—really disappointing.

  14. #89
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Halfway between Asgard & Krypton
    Posts
    3,174

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    When I first started reading the Legion all those years ago.
    It had a LARGE cast.
    It was set in the FUTURE.
    It had over 20 years of stories behind it.
    I started reading, Figured out things as I went along.
    And really started enjoying the book.
    A good writer should be able to do all of the above.
    It has been done before.
    Something like what is Hickman doing on X-men?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I think the endless reboots are a part of the problem... The first reboot works really well for me, probably better than any other DC reboot including Superman, etc. though I'll admit that the choice to get rid of Matter-Eater Lad and Bouncing Boy still bugs me a lot, and I can't deny that basically without Superboy some real charm was irrevocably lost, but overall that second Legion really holds up incredibly well to me!

    The "threeboot" though, feels more like it just kind of happened in my opinion? It's not like the previous Legion series was at a point where a reboot was organic, if you ask me. Follow that up only a few years later with the retroboot, then a few years after that with whatever the hell the New 52 did with them, which had at least two distinct Legions, plus a whole new reboot a few years ago... That's one reboot at a solid ending point after almost forty years of consistency, followed up around ten years later by a succession of four or five different Legions within a decade! It's not that comic fans can't or don't get into that kind of variance, but it can also be really paralyzing.

    I fell in love with the Legion a lot with the animated series, because Teen Super-Heroes in Space in the Future was just straight up an easy sell for me, and with a young Superman to boot? Sign me up! But I guess that strength of concept alone doesn't allow everyone to just ignore the morass of convoluted history the team has; oh well.

    'Til a new, stronger version of the Legion comes to stay, I guess I'm in the "Your Favorite DC Property Never Gets A Book And When They Finally Do, You Don't Even Like It That Much" club.
    Exactly. The several reboots have weaked the Legion as concept. There is no attachment to the characters anymore. Every new reboot is almost like the New Coke Legion but again and again.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    Legion's biggest problem is not the concept. It's the delivery. Good comics are good comics.

    Bendis's approach has been just okay. It's just not good enough to make up for replacing or re-engineering classic versions of characters. Frankly, though, I don't think anyone can really reboot the team by trashing its past. Build upon what existed, but don't repeat it and don't be tied down by it.
    And every reboot is just repeat once and again the same story.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    That only explains why you don't like the Legion. With exception of New 52's misstep, Legion Lost, LSH has always been set in the future -- and sold better than most DC titles in the early 80s. The concept is not, and never has been the problem. The way it has been delivered is and will continue to be the problem.

    At its heart, Legion is a super hero teams book set in a positive future. I think the wheels began to come off when Giffen tried to remake it as a sci-fi series (no team except in name) set in a darker future.
    Depiste being an excellent and experimental take, Giffen not only derailed the Legion by put it in a darker, cyberpunk future with burn out characters adut characters. It traumatized DC by convinced them than the only way the Legion works is by being teenagers. In the first reboot in zero hour, the objetive was to return to the utopic future and restart by the beggining. Since then, every reboot mades exactly the same thing and it put the character back to adolescent age. The legion is freeze in that stage and since then nothing new has been done with them, except regurgitate the same old stories once and again. And honestly, this kind of thinking makes me believe than this last reboot must had been more idea of DiDio than Bendis.
    You can say than the retroboot post Infinite Crisis sis proof the adult Legion doesn't work, but there the mistake was to put Levitz again in the writing, when you needed a new voice and direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    I think before you try to sell the Legion, you have to come up with to whom you're selling it. Who is the Legion audience? Nostalgia filled 40 or 50 somethings, that, though dwindling in numbers, have followed the team faithfully for decades? Or did The Legion amass a significant number of new readers over the last decade or so? How do you please the nostalgia continuity savvy crowd, withuot scarring off the easily intimidated lazier reader of nowadays, to whom, if it's not tied in with the movies or a game or a TV show, it doesn't really matter? Who would be a good writer, able to please both sides? It's a tough task. But I honestly think that is the biggest problem in comics nowadays. They simply don't know who the comic reader is, what he wants, and what really turns him off.

    Peace
    Add to the problem the fact each fandom have a different reboot version, which are not even consistent. This fandom is more divided than the Star Wars fandom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    And all those negatives-
    ‘Goofy code names’
    ‘So disconnected to rest of the DC Universe’
    ‘Dozens of characters’
    ‘Too far in the future’

    Are positives for some people.
    Count me as one of those who see it as positive. The first time I saw all those characters I was not "oh, to many characters, it is to much work to know them". I was "Oh, to many characters, which would be their hiistory?" The sad thing is meanwhile I had access to the Who is who from that time, which I had to pay for, people today have acces to wikis and fansites (which are for free) to know their shistories. The problem is with so many reboot, whcih characters are they reading about? That is the confusing part!
    "Words change our spirits, but we also change the spirit of the words "

  15. #90
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    1,382

    Default

    I think the ... "because they make comics for old men/nostagia heads" is a pretty weak argument. bookmark that.


    I also think that the "shared universe" of the American comics industry is a "feature not a bug" that was implemented
    long ago as a tool to make you're universe feel as if it was alive. So while its maligned and misused today with event fatigue really being like
    "ChaosJokerDeathMetalInfiniteCrisisInvasionFinalBl a ckestFlashpoint event of the summer.".

    Legion used to maintain its relevance to some point with its connection to the alien parts of superman, branic, and just them being a legacy team including him at certain points.
    That being said lacking its connection to other books it tends to feel both irrelevant to the universe at large and dead like nothing occuring in that book "matters" to the larger shared universe.
    Some people might really love that, but ... if that was what LOTS of people wanted then I guess this wouldn't be a thread.

    About that bookmark. . .

    So once people remove the excuse of "stop marketing on nostalgia" I'd say okay. Sure.

    Shoot your shot at the younger crowd with legion, but that runs the slap in the middle competing with manga/anime. Good luck with LOSH vs whatever manga this current gen is in love with.

    I'm not saying its impossible but you better damn well start with the bar high and competitive.

    The fight scenes from (going back a bit) naruto, Aot, and OPM are pretty goddamn evocative and impressive.

    Not to say it can't be done but while I constantly hear the complaints on here about nostaliga driven appeals of dc. . . I don't see the solutions for competing for the next gens love of manga getting thrown out either.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •