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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    But aren’t most superhero stories really separated from reality? I agree with the names though. (Apparition is a cooler name then Phantom Lass) then again I’ve always felt the hippie sexy Legion of the 70’s was better then slot of the darker stuff that came after.
    Maybe the fact that people don't seem to know that her name is "Phantom Girl" is also a problem.

    As far as the "super-goofy" aspect of anything, I think people are just fixating on a minor part of the Legion. Same with the large cast and long history. The writers need to take time with the introductions, but they often don't and just skip to the "good stuff" without laying the proper foundation.

    GI Joe has a large cast with goofy names, and it does just fine. The large cast and the specifically-descriptive names are part of the appeal of Legion, GI Joe, and, to a lesser degree, X-Men.

    The mandate that the Legion had to be disconnected from the Superman line and the constant reboots/retoolings -- beginning with 5 Years Later is what hurt the Legion. Trying to repair it now is too little, too late -- especially when the current Legion isn't one anyone had ever seen before. There's no reason for an old fan to come back to form a fanbase-foundation for the series to build upon.

    Also, some writers are too fanboyish with the team and either lean too heavily into Silver Age goofiness or try to go the other way too dramatically and make the team too edgy or try to make too much social commentary.

    At its best, the Legion was really just a straightforward superhero series that just happened to take place in the future. Writers shouldn't really add too much on top of that. That's when the series starts to feel remote and unrelatable.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    I think that in general team books aren't doing very well these days. Sure, we got Justice League and Avengers, teams that are usually made out of popular characters in the first place. And X-Men are an institution. But other than that we have very few team books doing good numbers. And usually they are much smaller than Legion and are somehow connected to what is happening in the universe.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    I guess Bendis was a fan and wanted to write them, but the legion does not cater to his strengths at all.
    God, isn't that the truth?

    He's never been able to give a normal sized cast their own voice, he barely understands characters who aren't crime associated (really, Mordru a gangster?) and writing them as fawning over Jon is just...ugh.

    And frankly, I liked how the Legion usually only had a passing association with the 20th century. Now it feels like it's overrun with it.

  4. #34
    Incredible Member joebleau's Avatar
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    Funny how people are saying they dont like the future story butttttttttt

    Future ends sell
    Future states sell

    Too science fiction?

    Oh look Green Lantern
    Far Sector
    HAwkman

    ect ect

    No DC need to keep a continuity and stick with it.
    Dont want to deal with all the history ?

    Make it 100 years even further in the future or 1000 like in the threeboot were someone came from the year 4000 to ask Cosmic Boy to come cause he was the inspiration for the Knight Tempus.

    You cant please the fans of all the 4 or 5 continuity. Scrap the name and the era start something new

  5. #35
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    All of the reasons people have offered are features of the group that made them popular--and at one time one of the most popular groups that the publisher had.

    Early comic book fandom developed thanks in large part to the Legion. It was their faithful readers that put the pressure on Weisinger to give them a regular series. Jim Shooter, one of the fans, became the writer at only fourteen years old. They lost their place in ADVENTURE COMICS despite being a good seller, simply because editorial wanted to push Supergirl and thought that the Legion were hurting sales on SUPERBOY.

    They came back again because of fan support and more fans turned pro took over the series. Because the Legion was in a time period far removed from the present, that allowed it to build its own continuity and worlds. All of that interconnectedness, the big cast, the long plots were what brought in readers. It was one of the most Marvel of the National Periodical Publications. Marvel's sales grew and grew even though it had a very involved continuity with hundreds of characters connected to each other--one big soap opera you had to follow to keep up with developments.

    Of all the concepts that D.C. had in the 1980s, the Legion was the one that could have given the X-Men a run for their money. The group failed through no fault of their own, but through editorial mismanagement. The Legion had come back from disastrous office politics in the past. I don't believe there's anything wrong with the Legion as a concept. But there is something wrong with comic book publishing and that is what prevents the Legion from regaining a fanbase and a dedicated following.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I think a big problem is the size. You have dozens of characters, minimum and often too little character focus.

    For me personally, the reboots haven't helped, especially the latest one. How are we supposed to care about a Legion when they can get swiped out by the next big writer?
    Size is actually a draw for me. Reboots are a big part of the problem. I can't believe they let Bendis do yet another reboot. I'd be fine with updates to character names and outfit -- as well as introducing new members. That keeps the team/series fresh.

    The team, however, being set in the future makes it isolated -- so most readers really do need an entry character such as Superboy to get them interested. I'd wager many people got into Legion via Superboy. Those who didn't probably just love team books.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comic-Reader Lad View Post
    Maybe the fact that people don't seem to know that her name is "Phantom Girl" is also a problem.

    As far as the "super-goofy" aspect of anything, I think people are just fixating on a minor part of the Legion. Same with the large cast and long history. The writers need to take time with the introductions, but they often don't and just skip to the "good stuff" without laying the proper foundation.

    GI Joe has a large cast with goofy names, and it does just fine. The large cast and the specifically-descriptive names are part of the appeal of Legion, GI Joe, and, to a lesser degree, X-Men.

    At its best, the Legion was really just a straightforward superhero series that just happened to take place in the future. Writers shouldn't really add too much on top of that. That's when the series starts to feel remote and unrelatable.
    GI Joe worked because they had a tv show and TOYS to piggy back with a comic book. It also had ZERO and repeat ZERO issues giving arcs or a spotlight on a person.

    For the most part had the same WRITER in Larry Hamma who did the comics and the bios of most of the cast (at least in the 80s).

    Yes we have Snakeyes and Scarlet and Duke-however unlike X-Men and Legion at times-they are not the constant focus. At the expense of OTHERS.

    Also excluding the crybaby gators-NOBODY threw FITS about who got used.

    A GI Joe issue about Iceberg being related to say Destro (both shared the same voice actor in the 80s-who also did Devastor in Transformers). Is not going to get the TOXIC response Ms Marvel gets.
    Law & Order got a spotlight issue. No one threw a fit.
    There are gay GI Joes-nobody threw a fit.

    Legion would need more than one book.

    One that shows them having adventures and another telling origins or at least a guide into who is who.

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    My opinion has been for a long time that its a hard sell because they keep trying to repackage it as its own thing, when what it really needs is to be built up again on the back of something else. It grew in popularity originally as a companion to the Adventures of Superboy title, and earned branching off on its own with time. Exactly how it fell I'm no expert, but it eventually did, to the point in modern times it just can't stand alone. Each successive relaunch fails pretty fast. So I think it needs to go back to being a companion to a bigger franchise like Superman first, and grow it from there. Don't force a stand-alone title, utilize it within the Super titles. Maybe then it could recapture an audience to allow it to branch out again on its own. But if not, keep it within Superman's world. And when I say Superman I mean the Superman. Not what Bendis tried. I think its multiple failures just show its not in a place to stand on its own anymore. And that can be okay, it doesn't have to be a death knell.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-23-2021 at 12:54 PM.
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  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Part of it is there hasn’t been a big successful outside media project using them to make people aware of their existence. Look at the Titans: their book has mostly been a train wreck for the past decade or so, but they still have fans amongst the younger generations because of the cartoon, because of Robin/Dick Grayson, because the team was small enough for people to pick favorites.

    Legion is huge, it’s disconnected from the present DCU, we’ve gone long periods of time with no Legion book, they had a cartoon but it was only two seasons and didn’t get as much love as it deserved, they tried to erase the connection to Superman which didn’t help, they’ve rebooted so many times that it’s hard for anyone to connect, etc. They should’ve just stuck with the Retroboot or used the classic set up as a reboot. The founding trio go back in time to meet Superman as a kid, they all team up and found the Legion, Superman has adventures with them but doesn’t remember because he gets mind wiped every time he goes back to the “present”. That’s a pretty simple easy explanation which gives them a connection to what’s going on in the present.

    Also put out a cartoon, TV series, animated movie, SOMETHING in outside media with them in it. Something to let the general public know they exist.

  10. #40
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Part of it is there hasn’t been a big successful outside media project using them to make people aware of their existence. Look at the Titans: their book has mostly been a train wreck for the past decade or so, but they still have fans amongst the younger generations because of the cartoon, because of Robin/Dick Grayson, because the team was small enough for people to pick favorites.

    Legion is huge, it’s disconnected from the present DCU, we’ve gone long periods of time with no Legion book, they had a cartoon but it was only two seasons and didn’t get as much love as it deserved, they tried to erase the connection to Superman which didn’t help, they’ve rebooted so many times that it’s hard for anyone to connect, etc. They should’ve just stuck with the Retroboot or used the classic set up as a reboot. The founding trio go back in time to meet Superman as a kid, they all team up and found the Legion, Superman has adventures with them but doesn’t remember because he gets mind wiped every time he goes back to the “present”. That’s a pretty simple easy explanation which gives them a connection to what’s going on in the present.

    Also put out a cartoon, TV series, animated movie, SOMETHING in outside media with them in it. Something to let the general public know they exist.
    I think as far as media exposure goes, the Legion cartoon is usually people's go-to (of course, I'm a little biased on that front).

    The Legion were also spotlight in the Justice League vs The Fatal Five movie in 2019, and will seemingly be a factor in the next season of Young Justice.

  11. #41
    Mighty Member Dr. Skeleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    I think it’s the fact that it seems so disconnected to the rest of the DCU.
    This. When I was a kid, I got some LOSH comics mainly because of Superboy, although I thought Lighting Lad, Brainac 5 and Phantom Girl were pretty cool. Maybe DC needs for them to go the way of the likes of Spider-Man 2009, Cable, and other future themed heroes to start making constant marks in the modern world and play a big role. I also enjoyed the LOSH cartoon as well.

  12. #42
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    What's pathetic is that most writers don't even include them in elseworld stories like Injustice or DCeased, you would think they would find a way to include Matter-Eater Lad in a story like DCeased, wouldn't he be perfect for a story like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Skeleton View Post
    This. When I was a kid, I got some LOSH comics mainly because of Superboy, although I thought Lighting Lad, Brainac 5 and Phantom Girl were pretty cool. Maybe DC needs for them to go the way of the likes of Spider-Man 2009, Cable, and other future themed heroes to start making constant marks in the modern world and play a big role. I also enjoyed the LOSH cartoon as well.
    I always find Superboy to be the least interesting out of the group to be honest.
    Last edited by LifeIsILL; 01-23-2021 at 02:40 PM.

  13. #43
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    I would change the name of the Thread to "WHY IS THE LEGION OF SUPERHEROES SUCH A HARD SELL NOW? Because there was a time when the Lregion was a huge seller. What changed?

    The Legion, as others posters had pointed was among the best selling titles from DC and easly the could compete with the X-Men. Ironically, the elements than a lot of people considers now as detrimental for new readers are the elements which helped to built it as a strong franchise than displaced Superboy of his own title: huge cast with complex interrelations, a cosmic setting .
    When you compare the Legion with the X-men, you can see they both have their huge cast. I would say than the X-men have a lot more characters than the Legion even and that is not seen as a weakness for X-fans. Also the futuristic setting is not something to discourage either. Huge franchises are set in the future or in space settings and they work pretty well and attract people. Being in the future is not a setback.

    The problem has been the reboots, and each reboot had the same objetive: to keep the legionnaries as teenagers. It seems like since the Zero Hour Legion, each reboot brought back the Legion to a perpetual adolescent stage, to say the same story once and again, and in the end to repeat the tales from the Levitz Giffen era, but with better FX and less content. The development of characters is something than helped to built the Legion and the reboots not only take that out of the characters but complicate things because you again have to explain why is this character different, which is his motivation, who are they. Doesn't help the fact than being absent from publication and having to explain once an again different origins. And pile one continuity over another just make it look like an incoherent title.
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  14. #44
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    Point of fact when it comes to the X-Men vs. Legion in terms of characters.

    The X-Men may have more characters, but their individual titles have your standard cast size

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Part of it is there hasn’t been a big successful outside media project using them to make people aware of their existence. Look at the Titans: their book has mostly been a train wreck for the past decade or so, but they still have fans amongst the younger generations because of the cartoon, because of Robin/Dick Grayson, because the team was small enough for people to pick favorites.

    Legion is huge, it’s disconnected from the present DCU, we’ve gone long periods of time with no Legion book, they had a cartoon but it was only two seasons and didn’t get as much love as it deserved, they tried to erase the connection to Superman which didn’t help, they’ve rebooted so many times that it’s hard for anyone to connect, etc. They should’ve just stuck with the Retroboot or used the classic set up as a reboot. The founding trio go back in time to meet Superman as a kid, they all team up and found the Legion, Superman has adventures with them but doesn’t remember because he gets mind wiped every time he goes back to the “present”. That’s a pretty simple easy explanation which gives them a connection to what’s going on in the present.

    Also put out a cartoon, TV series, animated movie, SOMETHING in outside media with them in it. Something to let the general public know they exist.
    Of all DC's many properties, Legion seemed like the clear choice for which one CW should invest in. The interpersonal drama, the extensive cast of diverse characters? The multiple histories to select from allowing more leeway in characterization... It was all there. I'm still amazed they only touch on it a little for Supergirl instead of just doing a Legion show. They must be terrified of production costs setting it in the future.

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