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  1. #181
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    Just get some X-men writers on the book, it's not that hard to draw the parallel unless you want to push the Doom Patrol book.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    In which case, reimagining them for a new audience of fans is exactly pointless. You can create *anything* for a new fanbase. It might catch on. It might not.

    But if the Legion is impenetrable to newer, younger audiences because we've been taught that superhero teams have to have exactly seven members ('cause our tiny human brains can supposedly only handle seven things at once, never minding that the Argonauts, back in the days of ancient Greece, had *fifty members* and those people didn't even have Netflix!), then perhaps it shouldn't have to be twisted into an unrecognizable caricature of it self for them to 'get it?'

    And, again, this isn't just the Legion I'm talking about. If someone says that they want to write a Black Panther story, but find the whole Wakanda business too opaque and 'unrealistic' and wants to set it in an urban American environment and deal with social issues and street crime and stuff, then he doesn't want to write a Black Panther story at all, he wants to write a Luke Cage story, and is just missing the damn point.

    If you want a 'Legion of Super-Heroes' that isn't set in the far future, doesn't have dozens of members, doesn't have corny codenames, etc. then it's right there, under the title 'Justice League.' Your search is over. Enjoy.

    But not every restaurant needs to be Taco Bell. And not every comic book needs to be the Justice League. I'll be over here in my lane, *not* telling Justice League fans that 'the problem' with the Justice League is that there aren't nearly enough of them, they get dragged into too many crossovers and need their own space for their own stories and need to have sillier names and not take themselves so seriously.
    For the record Marvel hired a writer who did not care for Black Panther and pretty much made it a third world country with rape camps that worship Storm and treats Panther as a joke.

    Legion should not follow X-Men when it's about the same 4-6 folks no matter what book it is. Legion has a huge cast-there should be nothing stopping it from showing it.

    That is if writers stop writing for trades. If a story can be told in 3 issues with Timber Wolf, Tyroc, Ball Boy and Gold Lantern-do it. If Computo can have a single issue story-DO IT. If Saturn Lass and whoever can do a 2 parter DO IT.

    If the cast is so big-if they are at Headquarters-I should see them in the background even if they are not talking in it. If there is an issue with science or whatever-whatever Legion member is skilled at that-should be consulted not some random guy that will never be seen again.

  3. #183
    Spectacular Member Stick Figure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldGladiator View Post
    Stick I appreciate you point of view even though it is diametrically opposed to my own. Quick question though, would your liking of the title be any different if Bendis did a team in the future with Jon Kent that had nothing to do with the Legion? I only ask because if Bendis just wanted to do a teen team book set in the future and called it Young Justice 3071 and I would have had much less of a problem with it.
    Yeah I would’ve still been on board. That would’ve been the easiest things for him to do. I respect the passion fans have for all the various incarnations of the book and creating another version apparently wasn’t a good move. Having Jon join the “Justice Protectors of the Galaxy” would’ve created fewer problems. Then again, someone would’ve wondered why he didn’t just do a Legion book!

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldGladiator View Post
    Stick I appreciate you point of view even though it is diametrically opposed to my own. Quick question though, would your liking of the title be any different if Bendis did a team in the future with Jon Kent that had nothing to do with the Legion? I only ask because if Bendis just wanted to do a teen team book set in the future and called it Young Justice 3071 and I would have had much less of a problem with it.
    A far future teen team that has nothing to do with the Legion (set either in the 25th+ century, or 35th+, or just some AU with no Legion-analogue), and had members like Gold Lantern, Monster Boy and Dr. Fate (and, presumably some ladies...) but no fourth versions of Lightning Lad, Shrinking Violet, Brainiac 5, etc. could have been cool. (And perhaps given us more depth on these new characters, who, unfortunately, got lost in the crowd sometimes.)

    I'm well beyond bored with 'new writers version of Lightning Lad, Brainy, etc.' Counting Superboy's Legion and 5YL, this is like, take 6? Yikes. Even for DC, that's a lot! And so the newer characters like Kid Quantum 2 and Dragonmage, or Dream Boy and Gazelle, or Dragonwing and Variable Lad, kind of catch my interest, since I've seen so many different Ultra Boys and Mon-El's and Wildfires and Dream Girls and Triplicate Girls that it's gotten hard to surprise me. (And, really, I'm not that impressed with new twists on these characters anyway. There's not *that* much wrong with them that they needed 'fixing.')

  5. #185
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    Grant Morrison wrote the X-Men at one time and Grant Morrison wrote about the Legion of Super-Familiars in the 853rd century. I would have liked to see them return.

    I think Morrison gets it. Those stories were so far in the future that one can get away with anything. Which is essentially what they were doing in the 1960s with the Legion or with Hal as Pol Manning in the 58th century. If it's far enough in the future then whatever.
    "Tout le sang qui coule rouge; All blood runs red."--Eugene Bullard
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  6. #186
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    It's even a hard-sell here on CBR. I've created several Legion threads that cover their past history and hardly anyone ever posts on them.

    They do get lots of view though. Just not much interest as far as discussions.
    I bought Legion Volume One. That story about the Legion of Super Pets standing in for the Legion was awesome. Oh, wait. That didn't happen anymore. In fact, almost everything in that whole volume didn't happen anymore. And that's the earliest, most formative stories.

    When you're already dealing with that many characters, reboots just make people say the heck with it.

    I did read the first couple of issues of the new Legion and I liked them. But too many characters, all rebooted so that their history and continuity is irrelevant. At the most core level, Superboy (Superman when he was a boy) is integral to their history and origins and that character simply does not exist anymore.
    Power with Girl is better.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I think Morrison gets it. Those stories were so far in the future that one can get away with anything. Which is essentially what they were doing in the 1960s with the Legion or with Hal as Pol Manning in the 58th century. If it's far enough in the future then whatever.
    And that is such a strength. Being set so far in the future, in a fantastic DC universe where 'the past' is as fungible as the future is to most folk, with a dozen different options, thanks to endless retcons, you are indeed free to do *anything.*

    So many writers have missed this point. "Oh, we need to get rid of the 30th century Green Lanterns because I just killed them all in the 20th century!" "No, you don't. They'll be back in five years, let alone a thousand!" "Oh, I can't use Superboy, because Superman-as-a-boy is being retconned out of existence!" "And a decade or so later, Superman having adventures as a teen is back in continuity, and wasn't that a foolish panic over nothing?"

    The Legion future is completely immune to whatever is happening in the present-day DCU, because whatever is happening this week in the modern-day DCU will been retconned away centuries ago, during the approximately *HUNDRED* once-a-decade reboots of continuity that will have occurred in the 1000 years between them.

    I want to introduce heroes from Tamaran, but Tamaran has been blown up, twice? Fake news! It's back! A Legionnaire from Feithera, all of whom got expelled from their homeland, moved to Qurac and got punched to death by Black Adam? Never happened! During the great Magic Crisis of 2415, everything Black Adam did was magically undone when he reversed polarity and became White Adam and punched Wotan (and himself) out of existence retroactively! Nobody will ever remember how he saved reality itself! Sob.

    It's just the ultimate freedom from whatever is going on in the 'modern-day' DCU.

  8. #188
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    Well the obvious one is

    1. Constant reboots that continually changed character appearances, and killed off timelines alienated the existing fanbase, which was rather large at one point and time. (There was a time when the Legion was one of DC's most popular titles)

    2. Anything that takes place in the far future or distant past (Hex, Warlord) away from the Superman, Batman and the rest of the DCU heroes has always been a harder sell.

  9. #189
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    Well the obvious one is

    1. Constant reboots that continually changed character appearances, and killed off timelines alienated the existing fanbase, which was rather large at one point and time. (There was a time when the Legion was one of DC's most popular titles)

    2. Anything that takes place in the far future or distant past (Hex, Warlord) away from the Superman, Batman and the rest of the DCU heroes has always been a harder sell.
    And Legion fans can be shy about picking up a new book, because it will either be:
    A. Legion in name only to keep the trademark alive.
    B. Erased in the next event or reboot.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalai View Post
    Just get some X-men writers on the book, it's not that hard to draw the parallel unless you want to push the Doom Patrol book.
    Bendis also wrote X-men. It wasn't great. The legion's nature did not lend itself to his strengths.

  11. #191
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    I've always got the impression that Bendis wanted to be a TV writer. Most of this comics read like characters in a sitcom to me. I guess some people love that. Talk, talk, talk.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    Well the obvious one is

    1. Constant reboots that continually changed character appearances, and killed off timelines alienated the existing fanbase, which was rather large at one point and time. (There was a time when the Legion was one of DC's most popular titles)

    2. Anything that takes place in the far future or distant past (Hex, Warlord) away from the Superman, Batman and the rest of the DCU heroes has always been a harder sell.
    On the first issue, that's sadly a valid claim about DC in general. Aside from the expense of comics nowadays, what has lost me is when a story or entire line of stories no longer happened and bear no relevance to a reboot.

    In fact, I would go so far as to say that it's not even the major, official reboots that drove me away but the soft reboots which are far more prevalent.

    I grew up in the Silver and then Bronze Age so that there was twenty years or so for me before the 1986 reboot. Then there was 25 years to the 2011 reboot. BUT, it did not feel that way. After 1986, it felt like there were numerous reboots. In 2011, I felt like, "What? Another reboot? You've done that twenty times already. I'm done." Because, to me, those soft reboots count.

    Nowadays, I tend to go for stuff that is, by definition, outside of what passes for continuity such as "Superman Smashes the Klan". I'd rather read a one-shot than something that should
    have a long term impact but does not.

    I don't see myself ever again becoming a consistent reader. Maybe if DC had an online all you can read site like Marvel, which would mitigate the expense. But the continuity issues are still there.

    Which brings me to the Legion. It's in a setting outside standard DC. That should work in it's favor for me and it kind of did. I liked the new take even though I grew up on the early, really early, stuff. But what kills it for me is not so much that it has no connection to reams of Legion history. It's that it has no future. It will last until some other writer has another take. Then it will be tossed like garbage in favor of his or her vision. So, basically, the same problem that drove me away in general.

    On the second issue, the isolated setting is a plus for me. I do wish they would just say it all happened, every bit of it. But that's impossible with all the revamps that lead to the Legion a thousand years later.

    One thing I really liked in the new Legion was when I believe a 21st century future historian talked about how what we see in "the Chronicles" is a select view being presented from our point of view. No human in the present could truly conceive of what the 30th or 31st century will be. He could see and hear it but utterly fail to comprehend it. And we are talking about time travel here. So, when the first glimpses were seen in, oh, 1957, or whenever it was, they were seen through the lens of how a person in that time would perceive or make sense of what she or he saw and heard, a 1950s view of the distant future. In 2021, we see an early 21st century interpretation of incomprehensible 31st century stuff. Neither view is reality.

    Plus that leaves no need for a true restart because, again, time travel. The same reality and the same events. But with the 1957 interpretation of what we just saw and the 2021 interpretation and all the ones between with none being what the 31st century really is, just seen through our various technological and social lenses.

    Hmm, seems a lot of squandered potential to me.
    Power with Girl is better.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    On the first issue, that's sadly a valid claim about DC in general. Aside from the expense of comics nowadays, what has lost me is when a story or entire line of stories no longer happened and bear no relevance to a reboot.

    In fact, I would go so far as to say that it's not even the major, official reboots that drove me away but the soft reboots which are far more prevalent.

    I grew up in the Silver and then Bronze Age so that there was twenty years or so for me before the 1986 reboot. Then there was 25 years to the 2011 reboot. BUT, it did not feel that way. After 1986, it felt like there were numerous reboots. In 2011, I felt like, "What? Another reboot? You've done that twenty times already. I'm done." Because, to me, those soft reboots count.

    Nowadays, I tend to go for stuff that is, by definition, outside of what passes for continuity such as "Superman Smashes the Klan". I'd rather read a one-shot than something that should
    have a long term impact but does not.

    I don't see myself ever again becoming a consistent reader. Maybe if DC had an online all you can read site like Marvel, which would mitigate the expense. But the continuity issues are still there.

    Which brings me to the Legion. It's in a setting outside standard DC. That should work in it's favor for me and it kind of did. I liked the new take even though I grew up on the early, really early, stuff. But what kills it for me is not so much that it has no connection to reams of Legion history. It's that it has no future. It will last until some other writer has another take. Then it will be tossed like garbage in favor of his or her vision. So, basically, the same problem that drove me away in general.

    On the second issue, the isolated setting is a plus for me. I do wish they would just say it all happened, every bit of it. But that's impossible with all the revamps that lead to the Legion a thousand years later.

    One thing I really liked in the new Legion was when I believe a 21st century future historian talked about how what we see in "the Chronicles" is a select view being presented from our point of view. No human in the present could truly conceive of what the 30th or 31st century will be. He could see and hear it but utterly fail to comprehend it. And we are talking about time travel here. So, when the first glimpses were seen in, oh, 1957, or whenever it was, they were seen through the lens of how a person in that time would perceive or make sense of what she or he saw and heard, a 1950s view of the distant future. In 2021, we see an early 21st century interpretation of incomprehensible 31st century stuff. Neither view is reality.

    Plus that leaves no need for a true restart because, again, time travel. The same reality and the same events. But with the 1957 interpretation of what we just saw and the 2021 interpretation and all the ones between with none being what the 31st century really is, just seen through our various technological and social lenses.

    Hmm, seems a lot of squandered potential to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    And Legion fans can be shy about picking up a new book, because it will either be:
    A. Legion in name only to keep the trademark alive.
    B. Erased in the next event or reboot.
    I agree with you both.

    Legion only in name is how I feel about the current series, I gave it an honest go for six issues or so, but felt too alienated from the world and characters... so oddly enough, I'm hoping for them to be erased in the next reboot

    I'm not sure that anyone at DC ever clued in that a future hero super team is a bit of a niche market, as are other DC comics that take place in the future of distant past.

    Unlike a Flash fanbase that comes and goes, comics like the Legion of Super Heroes, or Jonah Hex, have a loyal following that you need to continue to build on, because it's harder to attract fans to a 31st century adventure.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    Bendis also wrote X-men. It wasn't great. The legion's nature did not lend itself to his strengths.
    I mean Bendis's X-men wasn't that great, and the same goes for his Legion book.
    I feel like when Geoff Johns and Gary Frank reintroduced Legion, DC should have find a X-writer instead of Paul Levitz.

    Legion need a jump point for the book, maybe the same approach Morrison did with New X-Men would have been nice.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    I agree with you both.

    Legion only in name is how I feel about the current series, I gave it an honest go for six issues or so, but felt too alienated from the world and characters... so oddly enough, I'm hoping for them to be erased in the next reboot

    I'm not sure that anyone at DC ever clued in that a future hero super team is a bit of a niche market, as are other DC comics that take place in the future of distant past.

    Unlike a Flash fanbase that comes and goes, comics like the Legion of Super Heroes, or Jonah Hex, have a loyal following that you need to continue to build on, because it's harder to attract fans to a 31st century adventure.
    They could have used Superman and Superboy's adventure with the Legion as a jump point for new readers.
    But Superman books aren't doing that great either, so...

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