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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    That only explains why you don't like the Legion. With exception of New 52's misstep, Legion Lost, LSH has always been set in the future -- and sold better than most DC titles in the early 80s. The concept is not, and never has been the problem. The way it has been delivered is and will continue to be the problem.
    Just because something sold in 80s it doesn't mean that it is still going to sell 40 years later.

  2. #92
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    Well, the Legion sold well in the 1960s, the 1970s, the 1980s and even in the 1990s. When it didn't do well back then, it was because of stupid editorial decisions (like moving them out of ADVENTURE COMICS and into the back pages of ACTION COMICS). But they were always able to change with the times, appeal to new readers, without losing their core fanbase.

    Other than the publishers being stupidheads--the main problem for why the Legion ended up in such a mess is too much lost time. It's what I'd call the Captain Marvel problem. When the Big Red Cheese went out of business in 1953, he sort of continued as Marvelman in Britain, but he disappeared for too long in North America. In the meanwhile, there were different Captain Marvels that appeared and Marvel Comics got the trademark. So by the time National Periodicals licensed Cap from Fawcett, twenty years had passed, and the once mighty readership was scattered to the four winds. It was impossible to rebuild that large fanbase (one that had millions of readers for several titles), too much time had past. If they had brought back Captain Marvel in 1963 (and brung in many of the same writers and artists, now working on the Superman comics), they would have had a chance. Bad timing.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Just because something sold in 80s it doesn't mean that it is still going to sell 40 years later.
    Super hero concepts haven't changed much since then. Most of the series that were popular then are still popular today. It's the execution that makes the difference.

  4. #94
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    People always say goofy codenames. How is Cosmic Boy and less goofy than Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman? It's not.

    The thing about it be so disconnected is baffling too. If I was a writer I would love writing a book like Legion because I could do whatever I wanted without worring about if it tied into the next big company event. You have so much more freedom to actually make big changes and tell big stories in a book like Legion compared to other DC books.

    The cast of the X-Men is much bigger than the cast of the Legion is and has been for decades now, but people still want to act like the Legion is just too big. Most of the good writer on the Legion over the years knew you don't try and cram every member in every issue. Most stories are smaller groups on missions and not the whole team at once so that "its too big" arguement is just hot air.

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    Super hero concepts haven't changed much since then. Most of the series that were popular then are still popular today. It's the execution that makes the difference.
    This is a very good observation. While characters have gotten greyer in the past few decades, the basics are pretty much the same. Execution, however has changed considerably. Series have transitioned to more a part of a universal story as opposed to their own tales. Legion, being set in the far future, was less likely to matter to 20th and 21st century threats. In fact, the existence of Earth 1,000 years in the future pretty much clinched that no one's going to destroy the planet. Technically the execution of the book didn't change, but the other publications and their audience did change.

  6. #96
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    People always say goofy codenames. How is Cosmic Boy and less goofy than Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman? It's not.

    The thing about it be so disconnected is baffling too. If I was a writer I would love writing a book like Legion because I could do whatever I wanted without worring about if it tied into the next big company event. You have so much more freedom to actually make big changes and tell big stories in a book like Legion compared to other DC books.

    The cast of the X-Men is much bigger than the cast of the Legion is and has been for decades now, but people still want to act like the Legion is just too big. Most of the good writer on the Legion over the years knew you don't try and cram every member in every issue. Most stories are smaller groups on missions and not the whole team at once so that "its too big" arguement is just hot air.
    Right but the X-Men get multiple books whereas the Legion is just one book. It’s easier to deal with a huge cast of characters if you have multiple books to spread them around in.

  7. #97
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Been thinking bout this... even went and read a couple wiki's about the better story arcs of the LOSH.

    So when I read wiki for the great darkness sage, and I was instantly reminded of "Invincible" hopefully you managed to checked that out.

    Maybe what the LoSH needs is a writer like that given 100 issues and set to world build and make the characters feel alive, but when I went and looked a the invincible book I
    realized Invincible, Atom Eve, Rexplode, Allen the Alien, Robot-man, Dupli-kate, Black Samson, Monster Girl. A lot of them really SOUND and look in a way to how the legion looks, or rather
    they have a very similar "VIBE".

    Then I thought for awhile about all the complaints that I saw in this thread. . . and then things like Saga, Invincible, Wicked and Divine, Dr. Stone and I really figured out the answer to the Op.


    LoSH actually ISN'T a hard sell as a story. Pull the camera back and look at it.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "In the wake of an apocalyptic galactic war, a group of young survivors inspired by barely recorded histories and distantly whispered hopes that they'd heard as children band together to ensure that
    what they endured, what the federation of worlds allowed to happen would never happen again.

    In the year 2905, in defiance of the tides of darkness that had ruled us, the best brightest of us decided that there was still hope enough and light enough for all, and that for times when one hero was not enough,
    that they would become a Legion."
    Legion of superheroes.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now, i'm not a writer I just spitballed that but there are SOOOO many perfect stories that can spin from that type of story stub. However, I imagine a writer wanting to take that on would have to want to really
    work because whatever you change is going to be disliked by someone.

    Though I think you can win over even old fans with hard work, great story-telling and positive interaction the customers.

    One notable thing that struck me is that those weird ass names they've taken are a CHOICE and really a fairly witty one.

    The idea that the "Superman of Earth" is something that MANY MANY interstellar communities would have encountered and been either defeated or defended by along with Wonder Woman, Green Lantern of earth... like... the idea that "brightly colored, oddly named earth heroes" are real problem should have gotten around at some point and some Alien Species would be long lived enough to remember 900 years ago like yesterday.

    So in your lifetime Superman, Captain Comet, and Adam Strange show up and prevent an ancient world devouring nightmare being from scouring your solar system of life, and in that same lifetime when youre and old man Cosmic boy, Saturn Girl, and Lightning lad show up and say "Sight this peace treaty" you're gonna be like ... "yep".
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  8. #98
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I think there's a lot of different variables going into why DC struggles with the Legion. Lack of effort and talent being top among them, but that's just where it starts. A lack of consistency; even Legion fans seem to struggle with which version had which storyline or character or whatever. A lack of connectivity; in the modern market books that "matter" have better odds than books that don't and the Legion is a thousand years removed from every important thing happening in the DC line. A lack of sustainability; the Legion simply doesn't see publication enough to stick in the minds of readers who weren't around twenty-thirty years ago. Hell, I'm a reader who was around twenty+ years ago, I'm a huge fan of the Legion as it relates to Superman, and even I forget about the franchise a lot of the time.

    I like the comment someone made about the Legion being a book of supporting characters in need of a main star. They had that with Superboy back in the day, but it's been a long time since the Legion went hand-in-hand with the Supers, the way the X-Men go hand-in-hand with Logan.

    And I think there isn't enough that really sets the Legion apart. It's basically just the Teen Titans in space, and while that's a cool hook it's not really enough to carry an entire title that has few, if any, direct and active ties to the wider DCU. Not in the market as it is today. The concept itself is fine; young heroes in the distant future? Getting to see the world Clark and the rest of the League helped build? That sounds good. There is *so much* you can do with that concept. But a lot of the time the Legion book could be happening anywhere in modern day, cosmic DC, except it doesn't have all the stuff we recognize and love about modern day, cosmic DC. Somehow this book, which should offer us all kinds of amazingly unique and fun things, just ends up feeling kinda....generic. Somehow, it is less than the sum of its parts.

    I do think in the broad strokes Bendis had the right idea about several things. Ignore the past continuity (which has become a bigger detriment than benefit), bring back a Super, and include some connections to modern DC so the Legion doesn't feel *quite* so removed. But the pacing was too slow, too many characters were introduced too quickly, and I think it hewed too close to the standard space superhero fare, when perhaps it should've been leaning into its sci-fi roots more.

    I think if a Legion book is going to work in today's climate, then it needs to be something that no other book is even close to offering, teen heroes in space, in a future that doesn't typically feel very futuristic, just won't cut it. It needs to be Blade Runner meets Star Wars meets Stormlight Archive meets Avengers meets Babylon 5. It has to be more than just Teen Titans meets Star Trek, it needs a little extra.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #99
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Iíd also argue that the characters lack consistency. Batman may have many incarnations, but there are fundamental elements of the character that stay the same in every incarnation. Thatís not the case with the legion, many of which have themes that seem to bounce all over the place. The editors need to sit down and go through the characters and break down what is the appeal of each Legion member.
    Last edited by mathew101281; 01-26-2021 at 06:22 PM.

  10. #100

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    Also, there are concepts that can better withstand multiple reboots. Solo heroes seem to be better suited for this than trying to reboot a cast of over two dozen characters.

    So, we can have Silver Age, Bronze Age, post-Crisis, and New 52 Superman, but even though the continuity went away, the character and the basic foundation of the concept stayed the same.

    With the Legion, Princess Projectra was originally human looking, but became a snake in a reboot, for example. Colossal Boy went from a human who grew to a giant to a giant who shrunk to human size.

    These changes were unnecessary, and how do you go about buying trade paperbacks to familiarize yourself with the Legion when the reboot that's currently being published has no similarity to the existing trades?

    With Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman, yes the old trades are not in continuity, but they are similar enough in their foundations that you wouldn't be too unnecessarily confused.


    I think the Legion faces the same problem that some of DC's B and C-list solo characters like Hawkman and Donna Troy have -- they've been rebooted too much and each reboot is too different than any other reboot so that it's too bothersome to try to sort any of it out.

  11. #101
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    Well, there's a whole lot of the classic (pre-1989) Legion that's available to read (which is what I'm doing).
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  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    And all those negatives-
    ‘Goofy code names’
    ‘So disconnected to rest of the DC Universe’
    ‘Dozens of characters’
    ‘Too far in the future’

    Are positives for some people.
    yeah, those are positives for some people.

    Are these 'some people' enough to support a LSH series?

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    People always say goofy codenames. How is Cosmic Boy and less goofy than Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman? It's not.

    The thing about it be so disconnected is baffling too. If I was a writer I would love writing a book like Legion because I could do whatever I wanted without worrying about if it tied into the next big company event. You have so much more freedom to actually make big changes and tell big stories in a book like Legion compared to other DC books.

    The cast of the X-Men is much bigger than the cast of the Legion is and has been for decades now, but people still want to act like the Legion is just too big. Most of the good writer on the Legion over the years knew you don't try and cram every member in every issue. Most stories are smaller groups on missions and not the whole team at once so that "its too big" argument is just hot air.
    Yes, it would be nice to skip the next big company event...for about 10 years.

    The problem with disconnection is that it not does not add to the mythology...and it somewhat detracts from the mythology.

    Quick explanation: there is only geography to hinders Batman's villains and Wonder Woman's villains and Superman's villains from meeting...for a Secret Society of Super-Villains shindig, for example. LSH villains have to travel back in time for 1000 years to attend.


    Also, if the LSH has a character named Wildfire, then no other character named Wildfire can exist because the might confuse readers (or so TPTB think).

    So while the LSH inhabits their little corner, they are not really enriching the rest of the DCU, at least, IMHO.

  14. #104
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Though I think you can win over even old fans with hard work, great story-telling and positive interaction the customers.
    I agree.
    I'm a big fan of the Levitz Legion, but I really liked DnA's run and bought every issue of it.
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  15. #105
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    yeah, those are positives for some people.

    Are these 'some people' enough to support a LSH series?
    Well... the ones that see them as negatives probably aren't going to buy the book, anyway.
    Why pander to readers who don't care and will go back to Batman or their manga after an issue or two?

    Why crusade to change things for the benefit of an audience that's not going to be there?
    All it does is disinterests the remaining fans that could be introducing the characters to their friends and kids.
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