Why is the Legion of Superheroes such a hard sell?

[EmeraldGladiator]

I get your point on the Watchmen part. For me it read as Johns using Watchmen or more specifically Doctor Manhattan as a way to create a DCU more to his liking (he became Superboy Prime) and to somehow explain the DCU's generational resets in canon in a way. He like Superboy Prime failed in the reset which lessened the impact of the in every age there is a Superman thing he was trying to do.

[EmeraldGladiator]

Back to the original topic I think Bendis' Legion was a disaster, and while Superman can recover from his run. The Legion has been saddled with another failed reboot when a much better option was on the table. Making it even harder for one of my favorite DC properties to rise from the ashes.

[kcekada]

It would be a tough road, but they have to wipe these reboots aside. They can all be alternative universes that could potentially be explored in the future. You have to build on a strong foundation, and Bendis's Legion does not have it. Sorry, but little Jonathan Kent aged to be a teenager is a very weak foundation.

I'm all for new Legion members and new costumes (but please no no standard vertical stripes and belts of the 90s). New members are exciting. Changing beloved characters appearances in the name of diversity is not the way to proceed. You want a black Lightning Lad? Fine, introduce him as a new character and move the original back to retired status -- only bringing him back as needed. But you need some of the original gang from the years where they were the most popular -- otherwise, you lose a large chuck of your audience.

[Thor-Ul]

What irritates me is.. they did it and they miss the direction. Honestly, I wouldn't be that upset if Bendis would had written a Legion, following what Levitz had done and if he had created new characters of his tastes, even if with his track on big teams and space adventures, is less than stellar.
What irks me is we already are in the fourth fifth reboot of the property and there is no attachment to these characters. A good writer can take what other left to built upon then but with the legion is, "let's start again, the legion are teenagers". I can see that happening again in five years.

[Robotman]

It would be a tough road, but they have to wipe these reboots aside. They can all be alternative universes that could potentially be explored in the future. You have to build on a strong foundation, and Bendis's Legion does not have it. Sorry, but little Jonathan Kent aged to be a teenager is a very weak foundation.

I'm all for new Legion members and new costumes (but please no no standard vertical stripes and belts of the 90s). New members are exciting. Changing beloved characters appearances in the name of diversity is not the way to proceed. You want a black Lightning Lad? Fine, introduce him as a new character and move the original back to retired status -- only bringing him back as needed. But you need some of the original gang from the years where they were the most popular -- otherwise, you lose a large chuck of your audience.

Totally agreed. During the New 52 Legion run they made some effort to build up Tyroc. He was the field leader in the short lived Legion Lost series. He even appeared in the Justice League vs The Fatal Five animated movie. It annoyed the hell out of me that Bendis decided to change the ethnicity of some other characters and completely left Tyroc out of his lineup.

Again, I think Johns and Frank left a good foundation for what the LoS should be. No more reboots!

[godisawesome]

The blessing/curse of the LOS - in general, they keep getting interesting reboots from creators skilled enough to start making it work, only for the next reboot to come in an cut it off.

I first really got into the Zero Hour Legion, and I liked them. I then got ahold of the Threeboot legion, and I like it too. Then I got the Lightning Saga, and I like it.

But each successive version became a little bit more foam chore to read, particularly because it often felt like each successive version had the creator trying to justify ditching the previous guys stuff with some major POV shift... but each still trying to maintain faithfulness to the core concept.

And a side-effect of that was a lot of good writers started putting it some subtly obnoxious moments that just started turning me off. Looking back, I can tell how Zero Hour would rub fans of the old Legion the wrong way since they’d managed to survive past the COIE, and I know I can express some minor annoyance at Waid going a bit more “jerky” with his Threeboot Legion, and while I was okay with Johns post-Infinite Crisis LOS, by that point I was already chalking up a lot of stuff to bitter Silver Age revanchism from dudes unable to recognize good things happened after the Silver Age.

If it was me... I really would just make it clear that all those possible futures *could* happen for our heroes, then just see what happens and maybe have them crossover occasionally.

You *coild* have an “amalgamated” Legion Lost team in modern t8mes with members of all possible futures, for instance... or have Time Trapper try and manipulate our “present” heroes into picking a specific Legion fate in a “war of the Legions.”

[9th.]

too many characters, boring designs, and too far off into the future.

The Legion has a cast that rivals the Xmen and the Titans but they don't have the popularity to carry more than 1 book.

I also think yall are giving Bendis too flack for changing the Legion, they would've been rebooted with or without him. Designs and all, the Levitz era is not coming back.


As far as who'd like to see on the title in the future I'd pick Hickman, Morrison, or Al Ewing

[Sutekh]

too many characters, boring designs, and too far off into the future.

I remain of the opinion that people who are *not* fans of the Legion are not the best demographic to consult on how to make the Legion successful.

'Cause they might indeed make *something* successful, but it *won't* be the Legion...

[Thor-Ul]

too many characters, boring designs, and too far off into the future.

Same as Battlestar Galactica, Star Wars, Star Trek, Aliens... Being in the future isn't not exactly a probolem.

The Legion has a cast that rivals the Xmen and the Titans but they don't have the popularity to carry more than 1 book.

Oh, but they had it.

I also think yall are giving Bendis too flack for changing the Legion, they would've been rebooted with or without him. Designs and all, the Levitz era is not coming back.

You know, there was a time when I said the same and I had to eat my words.

As far as who'd like to see on the title in the future I'd pick Hickman, Morrison, or Al Ewing

Hickman, to busy with X-men, introducing in X-men a lot of Legion ideas and concepts; Morrison leaving DC; Ewing... Marvel is not going to let him go so easly.

[9th.]

Same as Battlestar Galactica, Star Wars, Star Trek, Aliens... Being in the future isn't not exactly a probolem.


Oh, but they had it.


You know, there was a time when I said the same and I had to eat my words.


Hickman, to busy with X-men, introducing in X-men a lot of Legion ideas and concepts; Morrison leaving DC; Ewing... Marvel is not going to let him go so easly.

Oh I know, I'd love to have him on DC though. One can dream. As far as Legion having other titles I knew about that but I don't think they can do that now, although they're more than welcome to try.

[9th.]

I remain of the opinion that people who are *not* fans of the Legion are not the best demographic to consult on how to make the Legion successful.

'Cause they might indeed make *something* successful, but it *won't* be the Legion...

I don't know about that, I think on this particular topic that type of information might be useful. Otherwise you'll just get the "I want this back" responses.

[EmeraldGladiator]

there is the rub, yeah you want new thoughts but the best way you can insure a book lasts long enough to get good or have a writer find his footing is to make the property strong enough to survive until it does. IMO going Retroboot Legion maybe even adding in favorites from some of the Reboots like XS would at least get you buy in from the nostalgia crowd, then gradually add in new creations. If you do it the reboot/Bendis way you get no support from the old heads and if you don't get buy in from the newbies then you die quick just like Bendis' Legion is apparently. There is the too many characters too complicated history arguments but there are new people picking up X-men books every year. DC keeps getting diminishing returns from the reboots and they last for shorter amounts of time. I have no doubt a Johns retroboot Legion would be a hit, a big hit with the right artist. I would love a Retroboot Legion with XS and Computo, the storytelling quality of the 5YL maybe written by DnA or Geoff himself. Keep the timeless classic uniforms with maybe minor tweeks for some totally redesign the ones that don't work. People don't really give a crap about code names, Garth can go by Lightning Lad or Live Wire as long as it is Garth. Yeah he has kids now so Lad might seem silly but that is the name the universe has seen him save it with. Is Lightning Man any better than Lightning Lad? Don't know, don't care. Want new characters that is what the Legion Academy and the Subs are for.

[kcekada]

I think the best approach would be starting out with a small team on a mission -- include two brand new characters mixed in with the classic characters. And then introduce more members in sub plots or behind the scenes. You don't have to show all the members at once. The scenes in Bendis's Legion where the entire group is there -- and little attention is given to any one member (aside from Jon Kent and Saturn Girl) is not very interesting.

In the next arc, you have one or two members from the first mission -- and then add more members -- old and new. Eventually build up to a story where the entire group is needed -- then go back to smaller groups. That's how Legoin always worked best when it was popular.

[Sutekh]

I don't know about that, I think on this particular topic that type of information might be useful. Otherwise you'll just get the "I want this back" responses.

We've seen attempts at addressing your concerns 'too many characters, boring designs, too far off in the future' with the last attempt at Legion Lost, featuring a much smaller group of characters, with different designs, set in the present day. It failed even faster than the standard Legion title that occurred at the same time, so it's not just me waxing nostalgic. I brought receipts.

(And bear in mind, I'm a fan of newer characters ranging from Kid Quantum 2 to Dragonmage to Dragonwing to Karate Kid 2 (Myg), and would be *delighted* by a Legion title set after the Founders and Brainy have retired, so I'm hardly the typical old guy shouting at kids to get off his lawn, here.)

[John Venus]

I get the 'too many characters' complaints. Honestly, if you want the Legion to be popular again you would have to start off with a smaller team first with the possibility of introducing more characters down the line.

The question is who would you put on the team? The core trio (Cosmic Boy, Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad) seems obvious but there would be Legion members who could use the spotlight?