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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    I mean, they're gods. They shapeshift all the time. They can look however they want to look. I don't think real world muscle mass applies here.
    Because if it did, Wonder Woman is leaner than Steve and no one is gonna argue that Steve is stronger than Diana. So yeah, can't really use real biology and sexual dimorphism in this argument. They be magic.
    well Steve isn't a god, so you can't compare him to Wonder Woman.

  2. #32
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    Since they look exactly like humans, one might assume they are human to some degree, rather than the result of parallel evolution. Since there is a multiverse of parallel Earths, the most reasonable explanation for Krypton is that Kryptonians are humans from a parallel Universe, this is more likely that the explanation that they are the result of parallel evolution. Same goes for gods and goddesses that look human, on some level they are human. Of course this is fiction, but that would be the most believable explanation to the reader.
    Well first of all, I think it's a big stretch to say that parallel universes is "the most likely explanation". It certainly isn't the most believable explanation to me. And even if they were humans, their biologies have nothing to do with testosterone, and it's biological engineering, they can literally decide not to make the genders different. Why would they perpetuate a power difference between genders if they can totally make them equal?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    I don't know why they gotta vilify Hercules, he's supposed to be a Greek hero! Usually in the Greek pantheon the make deities of the same rank are usually stronger than the females, and Hercules is of the same rank as Wonder Woman as they are both demigods. I sure Aphrodite won't beat Ares in a wrestling match either, unless Ares wants her to!

    By the way where does Aphrodite fit in the Wonder Woman Universe, is she friend or foe? According to Greek legend she has a love relationship with Ares who is not on the best of terms with Wonder Woman.
    Hercules was a hero by ancient Greek standards not modern ones.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Well first of all, I think it's a big stretch to say that parallel universes is "the most likely explanation". It certainly isn't the most believable explanation to me. And even if they were humans, their biologies have nothing to do with testosterone, and it's biological engineering, they can literally decide not to make the genders different. Why would they perpetuate a power difference between genders if they can totally make them equal?
    Are they equal on Krypton, where they don't have Superpowers? Let's imagine a 14 year old Kara Zor El on Krypton and there in front of her is Zod, no one here has Superpowers. Do you think Kara could take on Zod? Which one would be stronger Kara or Zod?

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    Are they equal on Krypton, where they don't have Superpowers? Let's imagine a 14 year old Kara Zor El on Krypton and there in front of her is Zod, no one here has Superpowers. Do you think Kara could take on Zod? Which one would be stronger Kara or Zod?
    We are talking about fiction. The rules of human testosterone doesn't have to be an obstacle. Specially for characters crafted around magic. In WW's case. She was created to be as strong as superman. Those are the words of her own creator. In fact, her classic intro says stronger than Hercules, faster than Hermes. And we even see her overpowering Hercules several times in the comics. And it shouldn't be a surprise. Since she has powers from several Gods unlike hercules. And in current incarnation. She has powers from several Gods on top of being a child of Zeus. So yes, the way the fight with hercules was portrayed in injustice doesn't make sense.

  6. #36
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    Since they look exactly like humans, one might assume they are human to some degree, rather than the result of parallel evolution. Since there is a multiverse of parallel Earths, the most reasonable explanation for Krypton is that Kryptonians are humans from a parallel Universe, this is more likely that the explanation that they are the result of parallel evolution. Same goes for gods and goddesses that look human, on some level they are human. Of course this is fiction, but that would be the most believable explanation to the reader.
    Except it's right in Diana's original masthead description - stronger than Hercules. Then add the speed of Mercury and wisdom of Athena, unbreakable bracelets, the lasso of truth and the power of flight and Herc should be toast

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman and Hercules are fictional characters of which neither is properly “human” and if DC writers state Diana is stronger than their version of Hercules, Diana is stronger than Hercules.

    Anyways on topic, Tom Taylor is the worst Wonder Woman writer but he’s not a sexist.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Wonder Woman and Hercules are fictional characters of which neither is properly “human” and if DC writers state Diana is stronger than their version of Hercules, Diana is stronger than Hercules.

    Anyways on topic, Tom Taylor is the worst Wonder Woman writer but he’s not a sexist.
    I think one can certainly argue he is not sexist in an overt, hyperactive conscious sense, but his choices reveal that there may indeed be an influence of sexism subconsciously with Wonder Woman being a good example. He has a LOT of company among comics writers. It is always a good tell when a separate standard defines the choices made for a character in a story.

    You can use Alex Ross as an example. He has interviews and work with Wonder Woman in comics and other media like MKvsDCUNIVERSE. But when you look at say his rationale for choices for Captain Marvel versus the same for WW some red flags pop up.

    Taylor definitely falls in that category when you analyze his depiction of Diana in the early years of the series.

    Wonder Woman was historically Beautiful as Aphrodite, Wise as Athena, Stronger than Hercules, and Swifter than Mercury. But yet Taylor rites what he wrote

  9. #39
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Nah it’s not because he thinks female characters as a whole are inferior, it’s because Taylor is a guy who was raised on the DCAU, and the DCAU revolved entirely around Batman primarily and Superman secondarily. That’s the way Taylor writes his DC comics, with either Batman (Injustice) or Superman (DCeased) at the center and with everyone else as sidekicks.

    Yep that was Brian Bucceleto. Also mystical you’ll be happy to know that while Hercules may have beaten WW (I don’t remember that but it’s been forever since I read Injustice and I have zero desire to reread it), Bucceleto also had Diana straight up destroy Superman in a fight

    Hahahahahahaha those freaking faces man, my God this is unintentionally hilarious.

    Taylor writes Diana as a massive jobber though.

    He’s a WonderBat shipper actually lol, he said he grew up on the DCAU, and he paired WW and Bats together in that dream world in Injustice, and then Cassie and Damian together in DC2 (which I found idiotic but whatever, it’s his Elseworld).

    Yeah DCeased is his baby and he had that Injustice stardom to do what he wanted. Diana basically does zero in DCeased, Superman is the main protagonist and is the one who is basically organizing everything. Hell “Green Canary” is more proactive and better characterized than Diana is imo. I was willing to give Taylor a chance after he killed off Batman, was shocked he did that and it made me actually stick around because he had subverted the boring stereotypical story anyone else would’ve done of Batman being the one to lead humanity against the zombie heroes (no doubt because he already done that basic story in Injustice).

    But then in what should’ve been Diana’s big moment, taking care of zombie Superman, she just jobs pathetically and achieves nothing except getting herself infected. And then in DCeased 2, Cassie is literally nothing except Damian’s girlfriend, she does not contribute to the conclusion in any meaningful way. Taylor clearly loves the Super Sons, just like he loves their fathers, but his love of WW and her mythos is shallow at best. He didn’t even have Cassie confront Diana ffs, what the hell? And then she jobs to Green Canary and dies in issue 1 iirc.
    Pretty much this. He also falls back on memes about characters, such as a collective of the greatest minds of humanity requiring Batman "because he's Batman" when it's Damien under there. Yes, he's smart, but listing everyone's credentials and then "he is in the pointed ears," well he kind of betrays himself.

    I don't think it's possible he's a sexist, though, given his work and general demeanor. He just doesn't really get Diana or her world. But Dinah? Harley? He treats them with a ton more respect even if I don't love his work or choices for them.

    Not many writers do because they don't read her comics. They read team books she appears in and every character in those are reduced to their most broad incarnations.

    So while he seems to follow Clark and Bruce and gets them a bit more, his Diana seems based on generalizations. He's not nearly the only one guilty of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    Since they look exactly like humans, one might assume they are human to some degree, rather than the result of parallel evolution. Since there is a multiverse of parallel Earths, the most reasonable explanation for Krypton is that Kryptonians are humans from a parallel Universe, this is more likely that the explanation that they are the result of parallel evolution. Same goes for gods and goddesses that look human, on some level they are human. Of course this is fiction, but that would be the most believable explanation to the reader.
    The most reasonable explanation is that they're aliens. In the infinite expanse of space, do you really think we're all that unique?

    Ancient God's are manifestations of abstract concepts given human form so we can comprehend them.

    Readers are okay with a ten year old acrobat being able to dodge bullets for fun. They're willing to accept a lot of nonsense as long as it's fun or serves the narrative.
    Last edited by Robanker; 02-01-2021 at 03:35 AM.

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    I think one can certainly argue he is not sexist in an overt, hyperactive conscious sense, but his choices reveal that there may indeed be an influence of sexism subconsciously with Wonder Woman being a good example. He has a LOT of company among comics writers. It is always a good tell when a separate standard defines the choices made for a character in a story.

    You can use Alex Ross as an example. He has interviews and work with Wonder Woman in comics and other media like MKvsDCUNIVERSE. But when you look at say his rationale for choices for Captain Marvel versus the same for WW some red flags pop up.

    Taylor definitely falls in that category when you analyze his depiction of Diana in the early years of the series.

    Wonder Woman was historically Beautiful as Aphrodite, Wise as Athena, Stronger than Hercules, and Swifter than Mercury. But yet Taylor rites what he wrote
    Oh, I don't disagree we all have some biases put into us even if Taylor isn't a knuckle-dragging MRA type. That she was the only character on the Regime side in Injustice that he decided "she was always evil" and didn't try to explain her journey from A to Z, like he did with Clark, Hal, Cyborg, and Barry or her being a jobber to the stars in DCeased speaks very poorly of him as a writer imo.

    He's good at shallow characters like Harley where there's not much to her in terms of depth which you can make up for with unfunny jokes but he struggles with characters beyond that.
    Last edited by Gaius; 02-01-2021 at 08:47 AM.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    I think one can certainly argue he is not sexist in an overt, hyperactive conscious sense, but his choices reveal that there may indeed be an influence of sexism subconsciously with Wonder Woman being a good example. He has a LOT of company among comics writers. It is always a good tell when a separate standard defines the choices made for a character in a story.

    You can use Alex Ross as an example. He has interviews and work with Wonder Woman in comics and other media like MKvsDCUNIVERSE. But when you look at say his rationale for choices for Captain Marvel versus the same for WW some red flags pop up.

    Taylor definitely falls in that category when you analyze his depiction of Diana in the early years of the series.

    Wonder Woman was historically Beautiful as Aphrodite, Wise as Athena, Stronger than Hercules, and Swifter than Mercury. But yet Taylor rites what he wrote
    You truly nailed it. Look at at that mary vs WW fight for example. taylor could remember that mary has the strength of hercules, the speed of mercury while beating WW. But forgot that WW herself was introduced as stronger than Hercules, faster than Mercury. He decided to treat the so called biggest, most iconic and important female hero as a jobber to a d lis*at best( character that oh what a coincidence, is the female version of an already existing male character. Many writers do this, and this is a sexist bias in my opinion. Even if they are not doing it in a conscious sense.

  12. #42
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    You truly nailed it. Look at at that mary vs WW fight for example. taylor could remember that mary has the strength of hercules, the speed of mercury while beating WW. But forgot that WW herself was introduced as stronger than Hercules, faster than Mercury. He decided to treat the so called biggest, most iconic and important female hero as a jobber to a d lis*at best( character that oh what a coincidence, is the female version of an already existing male character. Many writers do this, and this is a sexist bias in my opinion. Even if they are not doing it in a conscious sense.
    You could use the magic lighting as a cop out weakness for clay origin Diana, but if we must be saddled with the Zues origin then there really is no reason Mary would beat Diana. Even if she's the only one channeling SHAZAM's powers.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    You could use the magic lighting as a cop out weakness for clay origin Diana, but if we must be saddled with the Zues origin then there really is no reason Mary would beat Diana. Even if she's the only one channeling SHAZAM's powers.
    Clay origin Diana has never had a weakness to lightning, so she shouldn't have a problem there. And now that she is a child of Zeus on top of having powers from other Gods, she should be well above mary.

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member Drako's Avatar
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    Wasn't a bunch of Marvel fanboys calling Tom Taylor a "SJW" cause he had two or three books with strong women as leads?

    Funny that he is being called a sexist here.
    Last edited by Drako; 02-04-2021 at 03:52 PM.
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  15. #45
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Wasn't a bunch of Marvel fanboys calling Tom Taylor a "SJW" cause he had two or three books with strong women as leads?

    Funny that he is being called a sexist here.
    Ha, yeah that's funny. Welcome to the internet, am I right.

    I think the lesson here is, if you don't like it don't read it.

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