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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The stuff about Robin Hood as someone rebelling against the Normans was made up by Walter Scott (the man who invented Historical Fiction as a genre btw) but actual medieval ballads with Hood didn't have that. After all the Saxons weren't "humble" they were themselves invaders from Europe who settled in England and oppressed the peasantry (and notably practised slavery until the Normans ended things). The Saxons were just a bunch of petty nobles who lost a fight with even stronger petty nobles but they weren't in any sense better or different from them.

    The whole idea of Saxon reconstruction came later and it's a big part of Modern English nationalism (and also Brexit delusions) but it's historical nonsense.

    The original ballads of Robin Hood is more or less what you see what you get. A dude lived in a forest stole from the rich and gave to the poor, got into scrapes with the Sheriff of Nottingham, hung out with his merry men. Later on people said he was rebelling against King John and supported the Good King Richard the Lionheart and so on.

    There was this cool movie in the '70s, called ROBIN AND MARIAN with Sean Connery as an older Robin Hood and Audrey Hepburn as an older Marian, and it's really great. To me it's not far from the superhero deconstructions you get with Moore and Miller though the director based it on westerns with aging cowboys finding out that the wild west (or the forest) is getting civilized and all.
    You're correct that all that 12th Century King Richard, Crusades and Locksley business is nonsense. That's not what I'm talking about.

    I'm talking about lore from a hundred years earlier, during William the Conqueror's 11th century time. When (from the Saxon's view, who had been in England for generations) Normans were dispossessing Saxons left and right following the slaying of their (in the Saxon's minds) rightful king. When I say "humble," I don't mean "nice" or "innocent" but people who (in their view) didn't have a whole lot to spare, and who were getting unreasonably (in their view) taxed, and having their system of law overturned. Among the most hated of which was the Forest Law, restricting what kind of hunting was allowed and who was allowed to do it. Some hold that the Norman Conquest spawned Robin Hood's legends, and some think stories of various bandits more or less congealed during the Conquest. It's hard to say because the first verifiable documents of the stories date around the 15th century.

  2. #77
    Ultimate Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    Probably some drawing in a cave.
    Could there be drawings that maybe inspired the character Captain caveman? I sleep better thinking so. And since he was around in the time of dinosaurs he is the first superhero. And his son was the first side kick. Close the thread debate over
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  3. #78
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    And again, that just denotes most significant and is not a qualification for first.

    Was Jules Verne the first story about a trip to the moon? No, it might be the most important or significant, but it was not the first. There were almost a dozen before, including one by Lucian in the first Century.

    Is Jules Verne the first science fiction author? Again no, even though there is a before and after Verne. Your criteria just doesn't hold up.
    In this case, there would have to be a "before" that has a scientific aspect to the story. Frankenstein was based in actual scientific theories and speculations of the time it was written. The stories before it were "the gods did it" or "It was magic". If we can find a story that predates it that has a basis in scientific speculation, that's different.
    Power with Girl is better.

  4. #79
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Could there be drawings that maybe inspired the character Captain caveman? I sleep better thinking so. And since he was around in the time of dinosaurs he is the first superhero. And his son was the first side kick. Close the thread debate over
    No because Mightor came before him and was the true and authentic prehistoric superhero.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby_D...Mighty_Mightor
    Power with Girl is better.

  5. #80
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    In this case, there would have to be a "before" that has a scientific aspect to the story. Frankenstein was based in actual scientific theories and speculations of the time it was written. The stories before it were "the gods did it" or "It was magic". If we can find a story that predates it that has a basis in scientific speculation, that's different.
    I wasn't arguing about Frankenstein. That's why I used the moon trip analogy. I was pointing out Jack use of most significant as a criteria for first. They are not close to the same thing.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #81
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Could there be drawings that maybe inspired the character Captain caveman? I sleep better thinking so. And since he was around in the time of dinosaurs he is the first superhero. And his son was the first side kick. Close the thread debate over
    So that does bring up the interesting question of who the earliest superhero by the time line of history in the fictional world. Some ancient space hero at Marvel or DC?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    You're correct that all that 12th Century King Richard, Crusades and Locksley business is nonsense. That's not what I'm talking about.

    I'm talking about lore from a hundred years earlier, during William the Conqueror's 11th century time. When (from the Saxon's view, who had been in England for generations) Normans were dispossessing Saxons left and right following the slaying of their (in the Saxon's minds) rightful king. When I say "humble," I don't mean "nice" or "innocent" but people who (in their view) didn't have a whole lot to spare, and who were getting unreasonably (in their view) taxed, and having their system of law overturned. Among the most hated of which was the Forest Law, restricting what kind of hunting was allowed and who was allowed to do it. Some hold that the Norman Conquest spawned Robin Hood's legends, and some think stories of various bandits more or less congealed during the Conquest. It's hard to say because the first verifiable documents of the stories date around the 15th century.
    Well that kind of nitty gritty I don't really know. The fact is that Robin Hood's popularity was down to his anti-authoritarian sensibility, the archetypal "good rogue".

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    So that does bring up the interesting question of who the earliest superhero by the time line of history in the fictional world. Some ancient space hero at Marvel or DC?
    Hm. By that view, from a strictly Earth POV, we're looking at Nabu the Wise in one place, and maybe The Forgotten One in the other? Or does The Wizard SHAZAM predate Nabu?

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Technically I always thought Dick Tracy was but possibly Zorro is close enough for consideration. As far as powers go as being about the super part I still am pretty sure its Dick with his gadgets and his unusual looking villains gallery that may put Bats to shame.

    ETAS. Don't forget Dicks orphan sidekick.
    Last edited by From The Shadows; 01-27-2021 at 12:49 AM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    Technically I always thought Dick Tracy was but possibly Zorro is close enough for consideration. As far as powers go as being about the super part I still am pretty sure its Dick with his gadgets and his unusual looking villains gallery that may put Bats to shame.

    ETAS. Don't forget Dicks orphan sidekick.
    Dick Tracy was a major influence on superhero comics (and in fact a whole lot of other comics and things).

    But at core, Tracy was a crime comic and a cop comic. And Tracy outright murdered most of his rogues.

    The unusual and bizarre villains that Chester Gould created were largely one-shot characters and not a regular rogues gallery.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Dick Tracy was a major influence on superhero comics (and in fact a whole lot of other comics and things).

    But at core, Tracy was a crime comic and a cop comic. And Tracy outright murdered most of his rogues.

    The unusual and bizarre villains that Chester Gould created were largely one-shot characters and not a regular rogues gallery.
    Yeah, to quote the late, great Don Markham, "The vast majority of those criminals appeared only once, because when Tracy kills 'em, he kills 'em dead."

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Superman is the first superhero.
    He was the first to be recognized as what we now know to be superheroes, but I think in retrospect there were some you could classify that came before him. At least in real life, there are those who would claim Sherlock Holmes to be a superhero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Sherlock Holmes was a bit of a Superhuman.
    Last edited by TheRay; 01-28-2021 at 05:02 AM.

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    To me characters like the Phantom, and Zorro BBB are the first. To me having a costume is one of the hallmarks of a superhero. It’s why I don’t consider mythic heroes to be superheroes unless retroactively made into one(see Thor).

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    He was the first to be recognized as what we now know to be superheroes,
    And that's what makes him the first overall.

    ...but I think in retrospect there were some you could classify that came before him.
    By squinting on the quantum level sure, but remember that Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle holds. The more you measure one quality, the harder it is know another. If you define some characters in one genre retroactively, you lose sight of the claims of other actually existing genres to that character.

    At least in real life, there are those who would claim Sherlock Holmes to be a superhero.
    Not anyone I've ever met. Sherlock Holmes is the archetypal Great Detective and he's central to the popularity of the mystery genre, the police genre, true crime, and is basically the first story to popularize (and arguably romanticize and exaggerate) the role of forensics in crime investigation.

    And even then...Holmes isn't the first detective. Edgar Allan Poe's Charles Auguste Dupin was the acknowledged inspiration for Holmes, as was Wilkie Collins' The Moonstone, and before that you have stories like Hoffmann's Mademoiselle de Scudery and other precursors. Some people argue that Oedipus Rex was the first detective story since the plot of the play is Oedipus going around and investigating the source of the plague and solving the mystery (also the first Shyamalan, since it turns out the person he was looking for was himself). In either case, the point of Doyle's Holmes stories is that Sherlock Holmes is a rationalist and nothing he does in those stories is outside human possibility and capacity. Whether it's his crime fighting, or his sleuthing, it's all based on reasoned observation and induction.

    Now people will argue "what about Batman though"...and to which I'll argue that Batman is still essentially a fantastic character. He gets by using gadgets and gizmos that are inaccessible and unreal at time of publication, fighting threats who use similar unreal gimmicks. In real life you can't actually have a grappling hook that functions the way Batman's does in the comics/cartoons/movies/games.
    (https://gizmodo.com/amateur-batman-b...g-g-1845968510). You can't actually fight crime using Batarangs, you can't store all the gadgets Batman has on a single utility belt. You can't actually fight the way Batman fights in that costume he uses against dudes with guns. Batman's villains use Joker venom, Scarecrow gas, some of them are shapeshifting clay monsters, others have control over plant life, still others use exaggerated props and concepts.

    And this is speaking in the last 20 years. In the 1930s and 1940s, Batman had his own plane and other amenities that no police force (at the time) had. In the Adam West TV Show, he had a Batcomputer and other gadgets that were really bizarre and unreal. Technology has caught up with some of Batman's tech, but he's still ahead in a lot of ways. And the Batman Beyond suit it still cutting edge.

  15. #90
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    So, the only right answer to this is the Greek legend himself; Herakles. All other talking points are moot, because of fun Disney soundtrack to the animated film.

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