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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What was done to Ahmed Best was completely unfair and unjustified. It also doesn't make Jar Jar any less of a racist stereotype as has been argued by many black people.
    I don't get how the two halves of that statement work.

    The reason Best almost ended his life was because he put so much of himself into his work; for all the flack directed at Jar Jar...it was an authentic performance by Best. He drew deeply on himself, his family and people he grew up with to create the character's speaking patterns, body language, facial ticks and it was apparently largely his idea to go as far into slap stick as they did with the character as Best loves old time physical comedy. So if he was the shaker and mover in bringing that to the screen, and he is in fact of West Indian dissent how is it racist?

    I can see having that reaction first...but after learning that the characteristics that are called racist came from an actor of that race in what they thought was an authentic performance I can't see how you can stand by that accusation.

  2. #17
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    I think it can be a bit of both, but I think the word of the day is caricature albeit unintentionally.

    Both Jar Jar and Nute Gunray have voices which can be seen as caricatures of a Jamaican and Asian accent. Jar Jar in particular being the film's comedy could be a bit much but knowing he's played as black (and of course Ahmed Best is black) the slapstick and voice could lead someone to getting the wrong idea. Jar Jar is supposed to be the "drunken master". He was supposed to be a fool who throughout it all succeeded because of his clumsiness being used to his advantage, and it doesn't really come out on screen. So his importance can also be seen talking down in a way. Jar Jar is well intentioned both in and out of universe but it's not too hard to make the connection even if its unintended. The films play in a ton of regions where not everyone is going to get that nor is that same audience going to know about what Ahmed Best intended his performance to be.

    I've said it before but it bears repeating. The audience for the most part watches the films and only the films and they might not make the connections nor look into the artists and backgrounds that informed these characters. We do, but for the most part the GA will look at that and move on with whatever they take away from it. Jar Jar gets bad takes at face value because for the most part that's all the audience will ever perceive him as. We don't because we're kind of obsessed one way or the other and kind of get what Best was trying to do.
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  3. #18
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Jar Jar is basically just Charlie Chaplain crossed with Bugs Bunny. He's supposed to be a cartoon character, that's why he speaks funny, like he doesn't even speak in a Jamaican accent either.

    I think people should unpack consequences of saying Watto is a Jewish stereotype though (and other similar incidences)...because if he is...that mean Lucas is an anti-Semite unless you write him off as being gravely ignorant, which is unlikely or contend Watto isn't a based off Jewish stereotypes, which I do.
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  4. #19
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Jar Jar is basically just Charlie Chaplain crossed with Bugs Bunny. He's supposed to be a cartoon character, that's why he speaks funny, like he doesn't even speak in a Jamaican accent either.

    I think people should unpack consequences of saying Watto is a Jewish stereotype though (and other similar incidences)...because if he is...that mean Lucas is an anti-Semite unless you write him off as being gravely ignorant, which is unlikely or contend Watto isn't a based off Jewish stereotypes, which I do.
    Yeah that's another one I think people read into, and again one that's with out merit. Andy Secomb has said time and time again that he based it on a used car salesmen he once dealt with...who was Italian. And the features looking like an anti-semetic caricature? The animators based the features of Watto on Secomb himself, so it's no jab at people of jewish dissent or arabs or any other race, it's just the way the actor looks.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Silas Carson used a similar (but far less deeper) voice to Gunray for Ki-Adi-Mundi and the Ood from Doctor Who so it seems to be his default "fake accent". Although you can hear his 'real voice' for his one line in TPM where he plays the starship pilot at the beginning ("Captain, look!")
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  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    He's more Charlie Chaplin than minstrel show though
    If anything, Jar Jar is more like Disney’s Goofy.
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  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    For all of the criticisms the prequels receive, (all of it fair) they did give us:

    Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan. His performance and story through the prequels made Obi-Wan my favorite SW character.

    Fantastic light saber battles

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    And.....there was a vision and story set in place for all three films. Which can not be said about the horrible Sequel trilogy.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    For all of the criticisms the prequels receive, (all of it fair) they did give us:

    Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan. His performance and story through the prequels made Obi-Wan my favorite SW character.

    Fantastic light saber battles

    John Williams Duel of the Fates

    And.....there was a vision and story set in place for all three films. Which can not be said about the horrible Sequel trilogy.
    You do understand that this is just what happens with a Prequel right?
    Anakin has to become Darth Vader, the Empire has to rise, the Jedi have to die, Anakin was present for the clone wars. That's just by nature of it being a prequel to the OT. But frankly even though I do like all the films, the only prequel that actually does this is ROTS. TPM or AOTC are not at all required viewing and basically have fuck all to do with the actual key events that sets up ANH.

    You do not need to know where the Stormtroopers came from, where Anakin was from, who built C-3PO, how he met Padme, who Palpatine's other apprentices are, or even Ahsoka Tano to get everything you need to know in ROTS. It's a heavily flawed vision that doesn't even do what it needs to until the third act.
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  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I think even Lucas has acknowledged at times that a lot of the prequels are 'filler'. I think VERY early on when the OT was taking shape, there was even talk about not getting to the Anakin/Obi-Wan story until Episode II, with Episode I just sort of being a kind of KOTOR style thing explaining how the Jedi, Sith and the Republic came into existence.
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  10. #25
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    I rewatched Episode 1 and 2 yesterday on Disney+ and I will say, the explosion effects in these films are really bad. Like, first you see an unimpressive fire animation and nothing really blows up. Most of the other cgi still holds up good for being 20 year old films, like the mat paintings and the aliens.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    You do understand that this is just what happens with a Prequel right?
    Anakin has to become Darth Vader, the Empire has to rise, the Jedi have to die, Anakin was present for the clone wars. That's just by nature of it being a prequel to the OT. But frankly even though I do like all the films, the only prequel that actually does this is ROTS. TPM or AOTC are not at all required viewing and basically have fuck all to do with the actual key events that sets up ANH.

    You do not need to know where the Stormtroopers came from, where Anakin was from, who built C-3PO, how he met Padme, who Palpatine's other apprentices are, or even Ahsoka Tano to get everything you need to know in ROTS. It's a heavily flawed vision that doesn't even do what it needs to until the third act.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I think even Lucas has acknowledged at times that a lot of the prequels are 'filler'. I think VERY early on when the OT was taking shape, there was even talk about not getting to the Anakin/Obi-Wan story until Episode II, with Episode I just sort of being a kind of KOTOR style thing explaining how the Jedi, Sith and the Republic came into existence.
    I’d say it’s not so much “filler” as much as Lucas wishing to pursue lore and mythos expansion for its own sake as a Star Wars property... which I’d argue is a big-picture strategic goal he had that put him far ahead of the curve for his time. It’s why one of the weirdest things about the OT is that even though it’s a Prequel that Lucas insisted on stringing together a lot of familiar characters into, you couldn’t actually accuse it of making things feel “smaller” - while that kind of criticism is often justified in other works, it doesn’t really work when the creator is clearly pouring massive amounts of time and effort into expanding the lore, geography, cast of characters, and spirituality of the story.

    I tend to think of the PT as being so strong conceptually that it’s only the execution really causing it issues; part of the reason I think The Clone Wars managed to have so many high mark episodes and arcs is because Lucas’s ambition and concepts were great enough that competent execution would produce fantastic work. Lucas simply wasn’t quite as good at execution in the PT...

    ...But there *is* a definite downgrade and failure on the part of the ST to showcase that same ambition, and while I think that professional competence in executing a simpler, less ambitious story could have compensated for that, it didn’t actually happen on the ST.

    TPM is far from a perfect movie, but I’d say it’s a strong second place in the PT above AOTC and behind ROTS, and that all three are above TLJ and TROS. Give me 9 year old Anakin winning a too long pod race over pretending Ben Solo is anything more than an patron Saint of entitled white male privilige cancerously wrecking the story about him, and I’ll take midichlorians trying to blur the lines between science and fantasy over pretending Sad!Luke added anything of substance to the mythos beyond pretension.
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  12. #27
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What was done to Ahmed Best was completely unfair and unjustified. It also doesn't make Jar Jar any less of a racist stereotype as has been argued by many black people.
    Got to go with this. What happened to Ahmed Best was horrible. He didn't see it as racist and went from a happy young man to suicidal because he needed a paycheck.

    But there was so much racial and ethnic "humor" that he gets singled out just because grownups find the character extremely irritating.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Got to go with this. What happened to Ahmed Best was horrible. He didn't see it as racist and went from a happy young man to suicidal because he needed a paycheck.

    But there was so much racial and ethnic "humor" that he gets singled out just because grownups find the character extremely irritating.
    What happened to Jake Lloyd was pretty awful too, facing bullying and currently having mental issues with schizofrenia(sorry for the spelling)

  14. #29
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    Had just watched this the other day for the first time all the way through in 20 years. Completely misremembered it as I thought the pod race was the end of the movie and it is not.
    Like other movies,some things could have been done better but ,overall,it's a fun movie.

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