What's Your Headcanon For Why Batman Turned Into A Jerk In The '00s?

[The True Detective]

Also, Batman is not the only non-powered hero whose usefulness is questioned. Green Arrow, Roy Harper, Ted Kord and Punisher just to name a few have been subject to this as well. Ted Kord in particular was treated as a joke character by writers for decades up until his death.

Do they get called useless as much as he does? The answer is no. Batman is the poster boy for "why is he on the team?" Other characters have their usefulness questioned too but nowhere near as much as him.

[prepmaster]

Because writers like to make things more edgy, grimdark and whatever that suits their taste. One writer sets the precedent for others to follow.

Batman of the old is someone who believes in the good coming from the worst kind of people - his villains. He believes that they can be reformed. Its why his relationship with Two-Face and female villains are fascinating.
Batman of the new is someone who believes in the worst coming from best kind of people - his superhero collegues. He believes that they can be his potential enemies.

When you make Batman so cynical, so paranoid, it begs the question why he believes in reforming villains.

[bat39]

Because writers like to make things more edgy, grimdark and whatever that suits their taste. One writer sets the precedent for others to follow.

Batman of the old is someone who believes in the good coming from the worst kind of people - his villains. He believes that they can be reformed. Its why his relationship with Two-Face and female villains are fascinating.
Batman of the new is someone who believes in the worst coming from best kind of people - his superhero collegues. He believes that they can be his potential enemies.

When you make Batman so cynical, so paranoid, it begs the question why he believes in reforming villains.

Well, in-universe, if you look at it all as one timeline, the way Morrison did, it kinda makes sense. The Batman of the 'classic' Dynamic Duo years is a man who's a lot more optimistic about his mission, is at the peak of the positive influence he's having on Gotham, and has a young pre-teen/teen partner who's enthusiasm and positivity further motivates him. The Batman of the 'Batjerk' era is someone who's been at it for over a decade, has seen Gotham only getting worse over time, feels that his work makes very little difference in the larger scheme of things, and has suffered too many personal tragedies on top of the original one that sparked off his mission. Is it any wonder that he gives in to the kind of cynicism that leads him to assume the worst of his colleagues?

[prepmaster]

Well, in-universe, if you look at it all as one timeline, the way Morrison did, it kinda makes sense. The Batman of the 'classic' Dynamic Duo years is a man who's a lot more optimistic about his mission, is at the peak of the positive influence he's having on Gotham, and has a young pre-teen/teen partner who's enthusiasm and positivity further motivates him. The Batman of the 'Batjerk' era is someone who's been at it for over a decade, has seen Gotham only getting worse over time, feels that his work makes very little difference in the larger scheme of things, and has suffered too many personal tragedies on top of the original one that sparked off his mission. Is it any wonder that he gives in to the kind of cynicism that leads him to assume the worst of his colleagues?

But the problem is that such kind of cynicism doesnt lead to Batman stop believing in reforming villains who are way worse than his superhero colleagues.

One of the reasoning behind Batman's no killing code (also his opposition to unethical methods to take away people's freewill) is his belief in the good coming from the worst kind people. Without that reasoning, why would he let the likes of another Joe Chill to go on killing parents of other kids if he never believes these criminals being able to be reformed? Other writers add another reasoning to his no kill code that "once he starts killing, he can never stop". But even that reasoning doesnt mean that he would take a life of an innocent. The guy knows a clear distinction between innocent and criminals. Its just that if he kills and/or uses other lethal methods, we dont know what kind of criminals he would kill, what kind of criminals he would incapictate permanantly and what kind of criminals he would spare. He would just draw a new line for himself instead of the no kill rule. There is another reasoning that seems more logicial is that Batman is the guy who witnessed the murder of his parents so he cant bring himself to kill other people without him thinking of himself being like the murderer that shot his parents. But then you have story where Batman shot Darkseid but then again Darkseid isnt human so Batman doesnt feel guilt in killing non humans and the killing was done by a clone version of him.

[SiegePerilous02]

Do they get called useless as much as he does? The answer is no. Batman is the poster boy for "why is he on the team?" Other characters have their usefulness questioned too but nowhere near as much as him.

I don't think his usefullness gets questioned nearly as much as it used to, because writers have over compensated and now he basically is the center of attention and runs the show. So there is hype backlash when he's punching above his weight class and upstaging other big name characters who should be a much bigger deal than he is when it comes to specific power levels.

There are plenty of ways to showcase Batman as a useful and necessary member of the team while still taking his status of non-powers into consideration. Instead, we get stuff like Bruce Timm kissing his ass and doing stuff like out running Darkseid's Omega Beams and judo throwing Kalibak, knocking out Sinestro with a batarang or one punching Cheetah on a few occasions. it's stupid and undermines what makes him appealing in the first place. The other characters don't get called out on that as often because they are not as big of icons and they are not favored nearly as much

[Agent Z]

Do they get called useless as much as he does? The answer is no. Batman is the poster boy for "why is he on the team?" Other characters have their usefulness questioned too but nowhere near as much as him.

They get called useless far more than he does. Not just by fans but by the writers as well. Look beyond this forum and even further beyond this site. There are multiple comments about how useless they are. People don't question Batman's usefulness so much as they complain about him being OP.

[SiegePerilous02]

They get called useless far more than he does. Not just by fans but by the writers as well. Look beyond this forum and even further beyond this site. There are multiple comments about how useless they are. People don't question Batman's usefulness so much as they complain about him being OP.

Yes, Green Arrow definitely gets called more useless than Batman. I think it's a problem that Hawkeye faces over on the Avengers as well, whereas Captain America doesn't despite barely having any powers compared to the likes of Thor, Scarlet Witch, etc.

[marhawkman]

Do they get called useless as much as he does? The answer is no. Batman is the poster boy for "why is he on the team?" Other characters have their usefulness questioned too but nowhere near as much as him.

Welll, riddle me this: What is Batman's claim to fame as a superhero, and why does he NEVER do that in a team book?

Give up yet?

Well, obviously the Riddler is a better detective, but Batman often tries to claim that he is the "World's greatest detective". Writers usually just don't bother with writing detective stuff in team books. Which is why Batman comes off as "Batgod" since he's solving problems that don't make sense for him to be the one solving. Writing Batman as a resourceful combatant who uses tools to tip the balance in his favor is great. But when he has mcguffins in his pockets that he uses to do it? nope.

[The True Detective]

Welll, riddle me this: What is Batman's claim to fame as a superhero, and why does he NEVER do that in a team book?

Give up yet?

Well, obviously the Riddler is a better detective, but Batman often tries to claim that he is the "World's greatest detective". Writers usually just don't bother with writing detective stuff in team books. Which is why Batman comes off as "Batgod" since he's solving problems that don't make sense for him to be the one solving. Writing Batman as a resourceful combatant who uses tools to tip the balance in his favor is great. But when he has mcguffins in his pockets that he uses to do it? nope.

If he's canonically one of the 3 smartest people on Earth, how many problems are there that don't make sense for him to solve?

[marhawkman]

If he's canonically one of the 3 smartest people on Earth, how many problems are there that don't make sense for him to solve?

Is he? Above average intelligence sure, but super-genius? I don't see that.

He's generally not depicted as being science expert... until the story calls for him to mcguffin something. The better stories have throwaway lines like "I read some of his notes.." and stuff like that to explain how Batman got the knowledge needed, but there are some that just don't bother.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't know how canon it is that he's in the top 3 smartest people on Earth. Lex and Mr. Terrific (Holt) have a lot of canon to support them in that area, I don't know how much he has.

When it comes to being a science expert, I think Superman and probably Supergirl should definitely surpass him (and Lex surpasses Superman), plus there is Niles Caulder. I think there should be several scientists in Themyscira and Atlantis in that tier as well. Bruce's main strength is getting in the heads of villains and perpetrators and thinking outside the box in a way nobody else can quite manage, but that wouldn't make him one of the top three super minds on Earth

[babyblob]

One thing that Batman has always been written as is being able to adept to any situation very quickly. He is able to think on the fly better then most heroes because he does not have a ring or Super strength and a body that can not be hurt to fall back on. That is one thing I have always dug about him. Dont know if that makes him top three in brains but it does make him tops in planning.

[marhawkman]

I don't know how canon it is that he's in the top 3 smartest people on Earth. Lex and Mr. Terrific (Holt) have a lot of canon to support them in that area, I don't know how much he has.

When it comes to being a science expert, I think Superman and probably Supergirl should definitely surpass him (and Lex surpasses Superman), plus there is Niles Caulder. I think there should be several scientists in Themyscira and Atlantis in that tier as well. Bruce's main strength is getting in the heads of villains and perpetrators and thinking outside the box in a way nobody else can quite manage, but that wouldn't make him one of the top three super minds on Earth

Yeah DC comics has a LONG list of super geniuses. Bruce Wayne in the top 3? that's a really hard sell.

It's canonically established that both Kal-El and Kara Zor-El are super-smart by RW standards. Superman is one of the few people in the entire universe who actually has the knowledge and skill required to build a Phantom Zone Projector from scratch. Lex Luthor can't do that! Then there's a huge list of super genius VILLAINS besides Lex Luthor. Is Lex the smartest supervillain on Earth? Maybe but there are many who would attempt to contest that title. I mentioned the Riddler for a reason. Edward Nygma IS a genius. Whether he's smarter than Batman is actually the core of their conflict at times. And sometimes Riddler wins.

One thing that Batman has always been written as is being able to adept to any situation very quickly. He is able to think on the fly better then most heroes because he does not have a ring or Super strength and a body that can not be hurt to fall back on. That is one thing I have always dug about him. Dont know if that makes him top three in brains but it does make him tops in planning.

I vaguely remember a moment from a comic where some villain challenges Batman to a fight. You see Batman's hands disappear into his cloak, then he starts talking about how he's carefully weighed ALL of the options available to him for how to win the fight.... Before the bad guy can ask what that is one of the other JLA members floors him. THAT is strategic planning! Writers use mcguffins way too much.

[Jcady59]

Welll, riddle me this: What is Batman's claim to fame as a superhero, and why does he NEVER do that in a team book?

Give up yet?

Well, obviously the Riddler is a better detective, but Batman often tries to claim that he is the "World's greatest detective". Writers usually just don't bother with writing detective stuff in team books. Which is why Batman comes off as "Batgod" since he's solving problems that don't make sense for him to be the one solving. Writing Batman as a resourceful combatant who uses tools to tip the balance in his favor is great. But when he has mcguffins in his pockets that he uses to do it? nope.

What do you mean by mcguffins though because I’m having a hard time thanking when the last time pulled out a random device he just happened to need to beat the bad guy, also Riddler is most certainly not a better detective. Likewise Bruce has enough cognitive prowess that he should be able to piece together cases that are beyond him,unless you’re talking about stories where all the evidence is not there then I agree with you, but not because of a lack of Bruce’s skill but because it’s lazy ass writing.

[marhawkman]

What do you mean by mcguffins though because I’m having a hard time thanking when the last time pulled out a random device he just happened to need to beat the bad guy,

It's true that stuff like "haha I have Kryptonite" are not things that didn't previously exist. It's more a matter of the reader going "so how long did Batman walk around with that in his pocket?"

also Riddler is most certainly not a better detective.

The bit about Riddler was a joke, but Riddler actually DOES a decent job of challenging Batman's claim of detective skills ... on the rare occasions when he tries.

Likewise Bruce has enough cognitive prowess that he should be able to piece together cases that are beyond him, unless you’re talking about stories where all the evidence is not there then I agree with you, but not because of a lack of Bruce’s skill but because it’s lazy ass writing.

Ah, but which happens more often? Also the question here is about Batman's role in team books... what does he actually DO in teams?