What's Your Headcanon For Why Batman Turned Into A Jerk In The '00s?

[bat39]

If you don't care about Phillip, why do you care about his competence in raising a kid? Why do we overlook Alfred's crappy job if we're meant to view him as a good guardian? it's a bad look that the neglectful uncle produced a more stable individual than the reliable butler. pre-COIE Bruce may have evolved to a darker, more unstable individual but we'll never know since he was rebooted away.

Well...if it helps, the way I see it is that DKR was, at least originally, intended to be a 'possible future' for the then-contemporary Batman...which was the pre-COIE version. So he arguably did evolve into a darker and more unstable individual...albeit one still on a noble path to bring justice to Gotham.

Ultimately, its really just a coincidence that Alfred was retconned into being Bruce's guardian and father figure around the time Batman started moving in a darker direction. But I really don't see a correlation there. From a real-world publishing sense, comics got darker in the 80's, DC got darker, and the Batman franchise in particular exemplified that darker tone and aesthetic. And in-universe, I don't think it matters much who raised Bruce...the kind of things he's gone through in his career as Batman is what damaged him over time. It doesn't necessarily reflect on Alfred's parenting.

Unless you're talking about Bruce becoming Batman in the first place. But again, how much of a say did Alfred really have in that? Bruce leaves home at around 18 and spends the better part of a decade traveling the globe and training to become a vigilante. Hell, in some versions, he basically runs away and is missing, presumed dead. He then returns to Gotham and becomes Batman and yes, Alfred does go along with it, but its not like Alfred has much of a say in the decision.

I mean...what's Alfred supposed to do? Turn Bruce over to the cops before he puts on the cowl? Resign and leave Bruce to his own devices, abandoning the duty of care that he still feels he has towards Bruce?

I like the idea that Alfred agrees to help Bruce at the start of his crusade because a) He genuienly believes that, Gotham being what it is, Bruce can make a difference as the Batman, b) This is a great way for Bruce to channelize the anger and trauma of his parent's murder in a positive direction, and c) If he's part of it, he can make sure that Bruce doesn't get himself killed, or doesn't go off the deep end.

Point c is incidentially my headcanon for how the idea of Robin can be justified in a more 'realistic' context. Simply put, these kids were going to do something reckless anyway...its far better if Bruce is there for them and ensures they take to the streets with proper training and resources than just head out and get themselves killed. Dick would likely have gotten himself killed trying to take down Zucco on his own. Jason was most likely heading towards becoming a street criminal looking at an early grave had Bruce not taken him in. Tim I think would have chosen to be Robin, or some kind of crime-fighter, even had Bruce not accepted him. And Damien...well, being Robin is way better for the kid than being the heir to Ra's al Ghul!

[Tzigone]

Well...if it helps, the way I see it is that DKR was, at least originally, intended to be a 'possible future' for the then-contemporary Batman...which was the pre-COIE version. So he arguably did evolve into a darker and more unstable individual...albeit one still on a noble path to bring justice to Gotham.

"Possible futures" don't count. That's not the character evolving, but what they might someday do in the future (but we as an audience know they won't). For him to evolve, it would have had to be changes we saw on-panel. And there were some possibilities it could happen, certainly, but it didn't happen.

Ultimately, its really just a coincidence that Alfred was retconned into being Bruce's guardian and father figure around the time Batman started moving in a darker direction. But I really don't see a correlation there.

I agree it's correlation rather than causation, but it taints the entire thing to me and made it unpalatable. While I don't like that Alfred raised Bruce who became a jerkass, it's the relationship dynamic between Alfred and the adult Bruce that is often extremely problematic to me. There's just so very little in the dynamic I like, and so many consequences of it that I dislike. Some of those would go away if Bruce wasn't written the way he is, but others would not. The gain from Alfred as parent isn't worth what I think is lost from it.

Point c is incidentially my headcanon for how the idea of Robin can be justified in a more 'realistic' context. Simply put, these kids were going to do something reckless anyway...its far better if Bruce is there for them and ensures they take to the streets with proper training and resources than just head out and get themselves killed. Dick would likely have gotten himself killed trying to take down Zucco on his own. Jason was most likely heading towards becoming a street criminal looking at an early grave had Bruce not taken him in. Tim I think would have chosen to be Robin, or some kind of crime-fighter, even had Bruce not accepted him. And Damien...well, being Robin is way better for the kid than being the heir to Ra's al Ghul!

I dislike that very much. That everyone in Bruce's life was doomed to death and destruction without him as a savior. Blech. Especially when it's used as a justification for the crappy way Bruce treats them ("well, they'd be even worse off if he wasn't there,s o it's okay"). It's away of deflecting the blame he's earned. Of diminishing others (all doomed to bad ends without his intervention) to make him look better. Not okay. And for Tim, in particular, I think there's no reason he'd have gone done that route.

I'm fine with them being kid vigilantes - that's the genre, and I don't need it to be realistic. If we were realistic, Bruce would have been dead quickly, too.

[Frontier]

I dislike that very much. That everyone in Bruce's life was doomed to death and destruction without him as a savior. Blech. Especially when it's used as a justification for the crappy way Bruce treats them ("well, they'd be even worse off if he wasn't there,s o it's okay"). It's away of deflecting the blame he's earned. Of diminishing others (all doomed to bad ends without his intervention) to make him look better. Not okay. And for Tim, in particular, I think there's no reason he'd have gone done that route.

I'm fine with them being kid vigilantes - that's the genre, and I don't need it to be realistic. If we were realistic, Bruce would have been dead quickly, too.

I don't think it's trying to justify it so much as provide a counterpoint to the opinion that everything Bruce does to the people in his life is terrible and diminish the positive impact he's had on them.

[Spencermalley935]

I agree it's correlation rather than causation, but it taints the entire thing to me and made it unpalatable. While I don't like that Alfred raised Bruce who became a jerkass, it's the relationship dynamic between Alfred and the adult Bruce that is often extremely problematic to me. There's just so very little in the dynamic I like, and so many consequences of it that I dislike. Some of those would go away if Bruce wasn't written the way he is, but others would not. The gain from Alfred as parent isn't worth what I think is lost from it.

That just begs the question, What exactly is gained from Alfred just showing up randomly on Bruce's door step asking for a job? Even in the pre-crisis continuity, Alfred didn't exactly have much a of a social life outside of being Bruce Wayne's butler and he was multiple times willing to die for Bruce's sake and once even broke someone's mind control over him when asked to kill Batman. That kind of closeness makes a lot more sense if he was there from the start.

[SiegePerilous02]

"Possible futures" don't count. That's not the character evolving, but what they might someday do in the future (but we as an audience know they won't). For him to evolve, it would have had to be changes we saw on-panel. And there were some possibilities it could happen, certainly, but it didn't happen.

Agreed. I view TDKR as a possible future, because "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" is pretty much on the same level. A possible future for Pre-COIE Earth-1 Superman. That story is not compatible with TDKR, so things branch out across the board.

I agree it's correlation rather than causation, but it taints the entire thing to me and made it unpalatable. While I don't like that Alfred raised Bruce who became a jerkass, it's the relationship dynamic between Alfred and the adult Bruce that is often extremely problematic to me. There's just so very little in the dynamic I like, and so many consequences of it that I dislike. Some of those would go away if Bruce wasn't written the way he is, but others would not. The gain from Alfred as parent isn't worth what I think is lost from it.

Yep.

I dislike that very much. That everyone in Bruce's life was doomed to death and destruction without him as a savior. Blech. Especially when it's used as a justification for the crappy way Bruce treats them ("well, they'd be even worse off if he wasn't there,s o it's okay"). It's away of deflecting the blame he's earned. Of diminishing others (all doomed to bad ends without his intervention) to make him look better. Not okay. And for Tim, in particular, I think there's no reason he'd have gone done that route.

I'm fine with them being kid vigilantes - that's the genre, and I don't need it to be realistic. If we were realistic, Bruce would have been dead quickly, too.

I think in the case of Dick, it really needs to be shown that Bruce's interference is a good thing to have happened to him. Robin isn't remotely a realistic concept, but it becomes easier to swallow if Dick's life is presented as turning out worse without Bruce. But that still only really holds up if Bruce's stays consistently good. When he starts being written as abusive, it doesn't remotely justify anything anymore. Look at Jason at this point.

That just begs the question, What exactly is gained from Alfred just showing up randomly on Bruce's door step asking for a job? Even in the pre-crisis continuity, Alfred didn't exactly have much a of a social life outside of being Bruce Wayne's butler and he was multiple times willing to die for Bruce's sake and once even broke someone's mind control over him when asked to kill Batman. That kind of closeness makes a lot more sense if he was there from the start.

Alfred doesn't exactly have much of a life post-COIE besides banging Leslie sometimes on the side. Also, his original origin didn't have him showing up randomly. His father served the Waynes, so he was honoring that tradition at his father's death bed request, and then got involved as Bruce and Dick's medic, etc. He also had an affair with Mademoiselle Marie which resulted in a daughter, he had a history before arriving at Wayne manor.

That closeness can still be obtained even with pre-COIE Alfred showing up when he did. Fire Forged Friends is a trope for a reason, and it's not like Dick wasn't similarly devoted. or Superman if we're looking outside of Gotham, and he met Bruce even later.

[Frontier]

I think in the case of Dick, it really needs to be shown that Bruce's interference is a good thing to have happened to him. Robin isn't remotely a realistic concept, but it becomes easier to swallow if Dick's life is presented as turning out worse without Bruce. But that still only really holds up if Bruce's stays consistently good. When he starts being written as abusive, it doesn't remotely justify anything anymore. Look at Jason at this point.

Was Bruce not good while Jason was Robin? He was never abusive or cruel to him (post-Red Hood beatdowns aside). The contention between them was over Jason getting more edgy, not Bruce. Before becoming Robin Jason was pretty clearly not on a good path.

Alfred doesn't exactly have much of a life post-COIE besides banging Leslie sometimes on the side. Also, his original origin didn't have him showing up randomly. His father served the Waynes, so he was honoring that tradition at his father's death bed request, and then got involved as Bruce and Dick's medic, etc. He also had an affair with Mademoiselle Marie which resulted in a daughter, he had a history before arriving at Wayne manor.

That closeness can still be obtained even with pre-COIE Alfred showing up when he did. Fire Forged Friends is a trope for a reason, and it's not like Dick wasn't similarly devoted. or Superman if we're looking outside of Gotham, and he met Bruce even later.

The New 52 origin also had his father proceding him as the Wayne's butler, but he was still around when Bruce was young enough and was their butler during the Wayne murders. Julia also showed up during Batman Eternal.

[Zaresh]

Was Bruce not good while Jason was Robin? He was never abusive or cruel to him (post-Red Hood beatdowns aside). The contention between them was over Jason getting more edgy, not Bruce. Before becoming Robin Jason was pretty clearly not on a good path.

The New 52 origin also had his father proceding him as the Wayne's butler, but he was still around when Bruce was young enough and was their butler during the Wayne murders. Julia also showed up during Batman Eternal.

Well, Bruce was quite brutal with his villains during Jason's time as Robin. And he had some as*h*ley moments of ^abusiveness^ with his supporting cast too (with Jason, Jim and his love interest at the moment. Pre-Crisis too (well, not really abusive compared to later in the 90's that's for sure. But he was kinda rude and, well, Bruceish), Jason wasn't the only one who had a mean streak and fought crude, if anything, he didn't do much that Batman didn't do until very short before his death, if I recall right.

Edit: well, he wasn't abusive with Jason, is what I mean. But he had his moments.

[bat39]

"Possible futures" don't count. That's not the character evolving, but what they might someday do in the future (but we as an audience know they won't). For him to evolve, it would have had to be changes we saw on-panel. And there were some possibilities it could happen, certainly, but it didn't happen.

I agree it's correlation rather than causation, but it taints the entire thing to me and made it unpalatable. While I don't like that Alfred raised Bruce who became a jerkass, it's the relationship dynamic between Alfred and the adult Bruce that is often extremely problematic to me. There's just so very little in the dynamic I like, and so many consequences of it that I dislike. Some of those would go away if Bruce wasn't written the way he is, but others would not. The gain from Alfred as parent isn't worth what I think is lost from it.

I dislike that very much. That everyone in Bruce's life was doomed to death and destruction without him as a savior. Blech. Especially when it's used as a justification for the crappy way Bruce treats them ("well, they'd be even worse off if he wasn't there,s o it's okay"). It's away of deflecting the blame he's earned. Of diminishing others (all doomed to bad ends without his intervention) to make him look better. Not okay. And for Tim, in particular, I think there's no reason he'd have gone done that route.

I'm fine with them being kid vigilantes - that's the genre, and I don't need it to be realistic. If we were realistic, Bruce would have been dead quickly, too.

Regarding the DKR thing - yeah it is a 'possible future', but it's one that Frank Miller came up with as an extrapolation of the Pre COIE Batman. He basically looked at Batman in the then-contemporary comics and then sort of presented his take on what this man would be like twenty years down the line, when his crusade didn't really permanently fix Gotham and he's so psychologically damaged that he needs to be Batman. But he also takes this damaged individual and tells a positive story of an ageing hero rising again, against all odds.

And yes, DKR inspired writers on the regular books to start making Batman's world darker and taking him in that direction. And they retconned a fair bit of that darkness into his early career as well. But I don't think we can make an arbitrary distinction that "Pre COIE Batman was a good guy while Post COIE Batman was an *******". Unlike Superman or Wonder Woman, Batman didn't get a hard reboot - the changes, both to past continuity and the tonality of present-day stories, were gradual over the course of years.

Hell, had COIE not happened, Batman could still have gone in a darker direction given how the industry and pop culture was moving at the time. And with stuff like Jason dying, Barbara getting crippled, Bane breaking his back etc. Bruce could still have gone to a very dark place. So its not really so much a question of Pre COIE vs. Post COIE, as much as it is about the industry changing, the genre heading in a darker direction, and the Batman franchise embracing that darkness.

Also regarding the Robins - I'm not saying they were necessarily heading down a path of 'death and destruction'. But let's face it, all the way back to 'Tec # 38, it was clear that Dick was all set to go after Zucco on his own, and Batman, by agreeing to train him as his partner and help him on that crusade, basically stopped him from getting killed. Later retellings, most notably the New 52 origin, actually show us Dick hitting the streets as a 'vigilante' on his own. So yeah, Bruce basically gave someone who was anyway heading down that path the training, tools and discipline to be an effective crime-fighter. And Dick would eventually go on to become a pillar of the superhero community. So on the whole, his life did go in a better direction thanks to Bruce - despite the issues which cropped up around the time they split up.

As far as Tim goes...maybe he wouldn't have continued being Robin if he didn't get to join up with Bruce. Or maybe he would have continued being Robin, or taken some other identity. Tim had definitely shown the initiative to become a crime-fighter already - Bruce probably figured it'd be better if he kept an idea on the kid by taking him in, rather than having another kid vigilante running around outside of his supervision.

[Frontier]

Well, Bruce was quite brutal with his villains during Jason's time as Robin. And he had some as*h*ley moments of ^abusiveness^ with his supporting cast too (with Jason, Jim and his love interest at the moment. Pre-Crisis too (well, not really abusive compared to later in the 90's that's for sure. But he was kinda rude and, well, Bruceish), Jason wasn't the only one who had a mean streak and fought crude, if anything, he didn't do much that Batman didn't do until very short before his death, if I recall right.

Edit: well, he wasn't abusive with Jason, is what I mean. But he had his moments.

Wasn't some of that emotional manipulation from Poison Ivy and Nocturna, if I remember right?

[Zaresh]

Wasn't some of that emotional manipulation from Poison Ivy and Nocturna, if I remember right?

At first, for nocturna at least, yes. But in the later part it wasn't, I think. I was really thinking about... I think it was Vicki, actually. It was a journalist, the one I was thinking about, that was going out with him by the time Jason appears for the first time. He was a really, er, uncharming dude sometimes. I think he was a bit too controlling with Jason sometmes, too, without the adoption drama added to the mix. He wasn't how I was told he was to Steph, but...

He also was a hard guy to deal with in JLI, and that was also pre-COIE. But there, it was mostly for a comedy effect, I think.

[Rise]

Was Bruce not good while Jason was Robin? He was never abusive or cruel to him (post-Red Hood beatdowns aside). The contention between them was over Jason getting more edgy, not Bruce. Before becoming Robin Jason was pretty clearly not on a good path.

The New 52 origin also had his father proceding him as the Wayne's butler, but he was still around when Bruce was young enough and was their butler during the Wayne murders. Julia also showed up during Batman Eternal.

This isn't true. The reason why Jason left Ma Gunn school was because he discovered the school was a scam and a criminal organization which he refused to walk on this path.

Ironically, Jason become worse after being taken by Batman which of course was never acknowledged.

[Tzigone]

That just begs the question, What exactly is gained from Alfred just showing up randomly on Bruce's door step asking for a job? Even in the pre-crisis continuity, Alfred didn't exactly have much a of a social life outside of being Bruce Wayne's butler and he was multiple times willing to die for Bruce's sake and once even broke someone's mind control over him when asked to kill Batman. That kind of closeness makes a lot more sense if he was there from the start.

As I have said many times in this thread, I think the loss is from diminishing Dick's role, especially, as he is no longer the first of Bruce's fam and the closest to him. It also has very much to me resulted in a loss of Alfred having his own life, his own goals, etc (which we did see him have back in the old days, IMO). And even when it was off-panel we had the sense of him having a life. Of having had jobs, of having vacations, or hanging out at the bulter's club, or doing detecting work himself (not that I want to go back to comedy-relief Alfred). Bruce was part of his life, but not the whole of it. Everything, absolutely everything about him, is first devoted to Bruce. For over 40 years of his life. That's not good to me, and it's not healthy. It also to me makes his relationship with Dick (the others came later) a "because he's Bruce's kid" relationship rather than the independently-developed relationship it initially was. And frankly, heroic sorts are often willing to die for each other (which Alfred did noroiginally when he didn't raise Bruce, BTW), and asking them to kill often breaks mind control. Bonds of friendship and family can be built among adults.

This isn't true. The reason why Jason left Ma Gunn school was because he discovered the school was a scam and a criminal organization which he refused to walk on this path.

Absolutely true. He stole, certainly, but that was to get by. He even jumped in for a rescue before being taken in by Bruce.

The post-Crisis feel of Bruce taking in Jason really isn't good. First, he's calling him Robin instead of Jason, then later he flatly says he did it because he missed Dick, and it's really a great disservice to Jason.

As far as Tim goes...maybe he wouldn't have continued being Robin if he didn't get to join up with Bruce. Or maybe he would have continued being Robin, or taken some other identity. Tim had definitely shown the initiative to become a crime-fighter already - Bruce probably figured it'd be better if he kept an idea on the kid by taking him in, rather than having another kid vigilante running around outside of his supervision.

I don't agree. I say if he'd never personally met Bruce, he wouldn't have gone that route at all. Though his dad would have died sooner.

[Alan2099]

One of the things that gets me about Alfred always being there for Bruce is that it pulls the character in two different directions and doesn't really make a lot of sense.

With modern Alfred, while he fully supports Bruce, there's always a hint of disapproval in him. He always tries to ground Bruce, to pull him back when he's going too far and seems to look forward to the day with Bruce can have an actual life again. This doesn't seem to fit with the characterization if he's the same man that watched a little kid devout his entire life to becoming a vigilante when he grows older.

[king81992]

Considering Batman's history, there are plenty of valid reasons why he's a huge jerk now and all of them were mentioned in this thread. The real problem is that DC wants to pretend that Bruce is right despite mistreating his family, friends and allies. They'll make scapegoats out of every other Bat family character( though some of them have been or are jerks themselves) to justify Bruce's flaws.One of the most unrealistic thing about comics is how anyone can trust Bruce after all the stunts he's pulled.

[king81992]

One of the things that gets me about Alfred always being there for Bruce is that it pulls the character in two different directions and doesn't really make a lot of sense.

With modern Alfred, while he fully supports Bruce, there's always a hint of disapproval in him. He always tries to ground Bruce, to pull him back when he's going too far and seems to look forward to the day with Bruce can have an actual life again. This doesn't seem to fit with the characterization if he's the same man that watched a little kid devout his entire life to becoming a vigilante when he grows older.

Alfred does make sense, he knows Bruce went off the rails long ago and disapproves of what he's become, but hopes that Bruce can become a better person and have a life someday. There's also some low key self loathing going on with Alfred, he blames himself for not doing enough to keep Bruce from becoming a jerk.