What's Your Headcanon For Why Batman Turned Into A Jerk In The '00s?

[Tzigone]

You kinda answered your own question: No Man's Land.

It's kinda hard not to become nihilistic when your own government leaves you and your beloved city for dead.

I'm going to the voice of opposition here. A lot of people say he went bad after No Man's Land - to me, he was already bad by then. It's the point of no return for me, when I generally only read Batman stuff published after that if I've heard something that sounds particularly good or want specific information. The way he ordered Dick to take Blackgate with no regard to what Dick had going on was very disrespectful. Earlier, there was the spying on Babs in the Clocktower, which I had major issue with. But the biggie was the set up for No Man's Land when he'd rather have Gothamites suffer and die than have other heroes in his city or cede any control. I have so many problems with others listening, too, but it made so selfish, and so egocentric that it was just the last straw to me.

For me, things begin going downhill late pre-COIE (the entire set up of Batman and the Outsiders - a team only answerable to Batman and the disrespect for the JLA, is so problematic to me). And Bruce started treating other heroes more poorly - quite visible in some early post-COIE works. And he was a very poor parent to Jason at times post-COIE. But there was still a some good, too, for a while. I've heard it said that some vestiges of pre-COIE Batman remained until the mid 1990s, and then just petered out, but I'm not sure if that's true.

[SiegePerilous02]

My head canon is he was replaced with a mentally unstable clone in the transition to post-COIE and he'd been getting worse and worse by that point. Someday they will find Bronze Age Bruce in cryogenic freeze and thaw him out so we can have an actual good Batman again If they are gonna shove him everywhere, for the love of God let us at least have a Batman that doesn't suck.

Ironically, as much credit as people are giving Morrison for dialing it back, I credit him with the immediate lead up. I mean as much as I loved the run, he purposely wrote him as a an arrogant know-it-all jerk when he was writing JLA. I'm pretty sure he's admitted to that, himself.

Maybe it seemed that way at the time.
Looking back though, Morrison's Bruce even in JLA is much more tame than other stuff, even Waid's follow up run with his infamous story. Reading the first chapter of the horrendous Nightwing: Year One makes me think Dixon deserves a big chunk of the blame for Bruce's 2000s characterization which Rucka and Brubaker didn't help with at all. Before that, as bad as the Miller and even pre-COIE with the Outsiders stuff was, it didn't really start to get cemented in main continuity until the Dixon/Rucka/Brubaker and beyond days with Morrison's run being the only reprieve.

[charliehustle415]

I'm going to the voice of opposition here. A lot of people say he went bad after No Man's Land - to me, he was already bad by then. It's the point of no return for me, when I generally only read Batman stuff published after that if I've heard something that sounds particularly good or want specific information. The way he ordered Dick to take Blackgate with no regard to what Dick had going on was very disrespectful. Earlier, there was the spying on Babs in the Clocktower, which I had major issue with. But the biggie was the set up for No Man's Land when he'd rather have Gothamites suffer and die than have other heroes in his city or cede any control. I have so many problems with others listening, too, but it made so selfish, and so egocentric that it was just the last straw to me.

For me, things begin going downhill late pre-COIE (the entire set up of Batman and the Outsiders - a team only answerable to Batman and the disrespect for the JLA, is so problematic to me). And Bruce started treating other heroes more poorly - quite visible in some early post-COIE works. And he was a very poor parent to Jason at times post-COIE. But there was still a some good, too, for a while. I've heard it said that some vestiges of pre-COIE Batman remained until the mid 1990s, and then just petered out, but I'm not sure if that's true.

That's a good take. I'm not that familiar with the early Batman & The Outsiders and the majority of pre-COIE Batstuff; I only know it as Superfriends and Adam West depiction of Batman.

Did they ever give a reason why he formed the Outsiders?

[Frontier]

My head canon is he was replaced with a mentally unstable clone in the transition to post-COIE and he'd been getting worse and worse by that point. Someday they will find Bronze Age Bruce in cryogenic freeze and thaw him out so we can have an actual good Batman again If they are gonna shove him everywhere, for the love of God let us at least have a Batman that doesn't suck.

He got a bit of a reprieve during the Snyder era in my opinion.

[phonogram12]

Maybe it seemed that way at the time.
Looking back though, Morrison's Bruce even in JLA is much more tame than other stuff, even Waid's follow up run with his infamous story. Reading the first chapter of the horrendous Nightwing: Year One makes me think Dixon deserves a big chunk of the blame for Bruce's 2000s characterization which Rucka and Brubaker didn't help with at all. Before that, as bad as the Miller and even pre-COIE with the Outsiders stuff was, it didn't really start to get cemented in main continuity until the Dixon/Rucka/Brubaker and beyond days with Morrison's run being the only reprieve.

I agree. Morrison's Batman in JLA was tame by comparison, but that's when it really started to build from what I noticed (when Morrison started on the Bat books he even said anyone expecting his take on Batman from JLA to carry over would be sorely disappointed).

[babyblob]

That's a good take. I'm not that familiar with the early Batman & The Outsiders and the majority of pre-COIE Batstuff; I only know it as Superfriends and Adam West depiction of Batman.

Did they ever give a reason why he formed the Outsiders?

Batman wanted to get involved in the war in a country called Markovia as well as rescue Lucius Fox who had been captured by Baron Bedlam who had killed the countries king and became leader. The Justice league was ordered by the state department or something to stay out of the conflict. So Batman formed the Outsiders and went balls to the walls. After the team stopped Baron Bedlam they stayed together.

[Tzigone]

My head canon is he was replaced with a mentally unstable clone in the transition to post-COIE and he'd been getting worse and worse by that point. Someday they will find Bronze Age Bruce in cryogenic freeze and thaw him out so we can have an actual good Batman again If they are gonna shove him everywhere, for the love of God let us at least have a Batman that doesn't suck.

Reminds me of when we got back a Pre-COIEish Ollie who didn't suck....didn't last long before they reverted to *******!Ollie.

[ShutUpLutz]

It happened a lot earlier than that, Dark Knight Returns is where it started and grew outward from there. Batman is DKR is a complete *******. A Death In The Family storyline killing off Jason Todd was because the oik fanboy crowd loathed Jason because.....actually they never expressed ANYTHING resembling coherent reasoning for their loathing. So Robin was killed and Bats turned into this brooding solo almost anti hero.

[Ascended]

I think in-universe, the death of Jason plays a massive role in Bruce's downward spiral. And at that point I think Bruce might've been realizing that despite being years deep into his mission Gotham is only getting worse, and Bruce himself might have had a role in crime escalating in the city. He was already in a rough spot with Dick and Jason's death only drove that divide wider, and there wasn't an army of Bats in the Cave back then to fend off Bruce's isolation. Barbara was shot and nearly died. I think the Infinite Crisis mindwipe retcon happens somewhere around this same time period too, so that's a whole new level of paranoia dumped on top of an already unhealthy amount of paranoia.

Maybe Tim's arrival might have helped Bruce recover, and I think it did, a bit, for a moment, but then Knightfall happens, and Clark dies, Diana is replaced, Hal goes insane, Arthur loses a hand and sense of humor....the world was turning into quite a dark place, and Gotham was darker than most other places, and all this unfolding while Bruce is still mourning the loss of Jason, Babs' injury, etc.

And then, not long after that (in-universe) we hit the real low point of Gotham, No Man's Land and Contagion and all the rest of it.

[Restingvoice]

I'm going to the voice of opposition here. A lot of people say he went bad after No Man's Land - to me, he was already bad by then. It's the point of no return for me, when I generally only read Batman stuff published after that if I've heard something that sounds particularly good or want specific information. The way he ordered Dick to take Blackgate with no regard to what Dick had going on was very disrespectful. Earlier, there was the spying on Babs in the Clocktower, which I had major issue with. But the biggie was the set up for No Man's Land when he'd rather have Gothamites suffer and die than have other heroes in his city or cede any control. I have so many problems with others listening, too, but it made so selfish, and so egocentric that it was just the last straw to me.

Yeah. Hey, Helena, I don't like you, fight this 100 armed men and if you fail that's your fault. You should be capable.

[Tzigone]

Yeah. Hey, Helena, I don't like you, fight this 100 armed men and if you fail that's your fault. You should be capable.

Going earlier - I haven't read the issue, but I'm told when Barbara asked about how he was healed after his back was broken, he just hung up the phone on her instead of answering. But since I haven't read it, I don't have context the emotional vibe of the scene.

It happened a lot earlier than that, Dark Knight Returns is where it started and grew outward from there.

Yeah, that's what I think. It just got more and more extreme.

Back to the beginning:

Bruce Wayne deeply loved his inner circle of friends

I feel like his circle shrank a lot through the 1980s (removing most of his old JLA friends). Then later he started treated his family as poorly as he'd treated his former friends.

I wish I could come up with a consistent and good in-universe reason. I mean, even Tim "saving" Bruce from his violent streak was a retcon at the time (we didn't see that sort of extra level of violence starting after Jason's death, but only later when they decided to introduce Tim). What makes it even more difficult to handle in-universe (and really annoys me) is that it's back-projected into the past. With Year One, of course, but over the years it's often popped up in stories that reference events when Dick was still a kid and such. I mean, it happens to every character of course (backprojecting current characterization or interpersonal dynamics into eras where they were different), but the result in the in-universe story is (fairly often) that "he's always been this way."

If I wanted the transformation in a "cleaner" universe (like a new animated series or something starting from scratch), then I would use Jason's death, of course. But also Bruce trying to control the world around him more, which includes controlling the people more. Then toss in some tunnel vision, where he's increasingly let his goal of cleaning up Gotham consume all other things in his life. Then taint that tunnel vision with a man who doesn't see the improvements, but only the places he didn't improve. I rather like the idea that when he started, he thought he'd have this town cleaned up and be retired in 10 years. And he didn't. And he just keeps seeing how far he has to go instead of how far he's actually come. Of course, that would require a Gotham that wasn't cursed.

[charliehustle415]

Batman wanted to get involved in the war in a country called Markovia as well as rescue Lucius Fox who had been captured by Baron Bedlam who had killed the countries king and became leader. The Justice league was ordered by the state department or something to stay out of the conflict. So Batman formed the Outsiders and went balls to the walls. After the team stopped Baron Bedlam they stayed together.

Ah that'll do it.

But, Batman has always been anti government right? Or did that first show up in DKR?

[babyblob]

Ah that'll do it.

But, Batman has always been anti government right? Or did that first show up in DKR?

I cant say about now. but in the 60's and 70's he was a deputized agent of the police and had official plates on the Batmoblie. I remember one issue of The Brave and The Bold where Gordan tells Batman he is over worked and orders him to take a vacation. And Batman agrees. He used to work very well with the police. Did missions for the American Government . At some point I cant really say when it turned into all Gotham Police either suck at their jobs or are dirty as Hell and I will only work with them as long as they listen to what I say. I know it kind of shows him respecting Gordan but at the end of the day he does treat him like crap. And I am sure that if Batman thought there was a guy who would work better with him as commissioner he would drop Gordan in a hot minute.

[babyblob]

Then later he was written as being very worried about unchecked power. So he came up with plans to disable The Justice league and those plans were used in the Tower of Babel Story line. He then created The brother Eye Satellite that was hijacked creating OMACS. I know one of those OMACs killed Rocket Red. So I would say that Batman has done just as much harm to the heroes as any villain.

[Alan2099]

A lot of people bring up the Knightfall storyline as part of the downfall of Batman, and I'd agree with that partially. However, it's not Bane that messed him up badly there. It was Azreal.

He let Azreal be Batman and Azzy screwed up big. A good part of the reason why he screwed up was because wasn't being Batman the way Bruce would have done it. Bruce saw that if somebody is being Batman but isn't doing it his way, it ruins everything, and he gradually started to view everyone that way.

Superman, Flash, Robin? None of them are being a superhero the way Bruce is so they're WRONG.