What's Your Headcanon For Why Batman Turned Into A Jerk In The '00s?

[SiegePerilous02]

What do you mean by mcguffins though because I’m having a hard time thanking when the last time pulled out a random device he just happened to need to beat the bad guy, also Riddler is most certainly not a better detective. Likewise Bruce has enough cognitive prowess that he should be able to piece together cases that are beyond him,unless you’re talking about stories where all the evidence is not there then I agree with you, but not because of a lack of Bruce’s skill but because it’s lazy ass writing.

There was that anti-lasso or whatever dumb **** it was he used on Wonder Woman in Snyder's run, which was never seen before and will never be seen again.

[Jcady59]

There was that anti-lasso or whatever dumb **** it was he used on Wonder Woman in Snyder's run, which was never seen before and will never be seen again.

The lasso of truth isn’t a one of a kind item there are like 4 variants so it stands to reason that there could be more. It make perfect sense for Bruce based on the person he is to have it as it’s a way to incapacitate someone far more powerful than him without any bodily harm to said person oh and it did appear again after that issue.

[Tzigone]

The lasso of truth isn’t a one of a kind item there are like 4 variants so it stands to reason that there could be more. It make perfect sense for Bruce based on the person he is to have it as it’s a way to incapacitate someone far more powerful than him without any bodily harm to said person oh and it did appear again after that issue.

It makes no sense at all to me that he be able to do such a thing - just more Batgod crap.

And, of course, it takes up back to the entire dynamic where Bruce doesn't trust them. Where heroes do villainous things. But Bruce is always better them - in either morality or capability, oftentimes both. Others get diminished to make him look better. And when he does do the bad things (as this thread is about), it either gets twisted so he's justified or swept under the rug.

Though, I'll admit, there's a lot sweeping and some big rugs these days, given how often they want a hero to do something "shocking."

[Nite-Wing]

Batman is the ultimate paragon of DC everything he does is for the greater good. I think the only time he's ever been shown as bad or in a bad light is in the white knight universe where he's in jail

Thats why its so hard for DC to ever take the character to task on anything it takes a complete repudiation of Bruce to stop him. DC will never commit to that
Even during no man's land or fugitive they sort of returned everything back to normal and washed his hands of all consequences
Its comics but some stories have to affect status quo and stick

When superman and wonder woman began killing their villains or threatening to kill he never did.
When the superhero community turned on him because his principles weren't jiving with the edgy justice they were pushing in identity crisis
He stood against them
That storyline and the bitterness still pushes the characters narrative for some writers
Even on the justice league everyone has embraced Morrisons BatGod meme and its become pretty much canon he plans for everything and against everyone



The bridge was built against Batman by a number of characters even in the dark knight returns superman went full fascist and started killing and maiming other heroes for the president Batman was the force for change.

[Gaius]

Batman is the ultimate paragon of DC everything he does is for the greater good. I think the only time he's ever been shown as bad or in a bad light is in the white knight universe where he's in jail

Thats why its so hard for DC to ever take the character to task on anything it takes a complete repudiation of Bruce to stop him. DC will never commit to that
Even during no man's land or fugitive they sort of returned everything back to normal and washed his hands of all consequences
Its comics but some stories have to affect status quo and stick

When superman and wonder woman began killing their villains or threatening to kill he never did.
When the superhero community turned on him because his principles weren't jiving with the edgy justice they were pushing in identity crisis
He stood against them
That storyline and the bitterness still pushes the characters narrative for some writers
Even on the justice league everyone has embraced Morrisons BatGod meme and its become pretty much canon he plans for everything and against everyone



The bridge was built against Batman by a number of characters even in the dark knight returns superman went full fascist and started killing and maiming other heroes for the president Batman was the force for change.

Lol, this is some revisionist history that would make Soviet state historians proud.

[Jcady59]

It makes no sense at all to me that he be able to do such a thing - just more Batgod crap.

And, of course, it takes up back to the entire dynamic where Bruce doesn't trust them. Where heroes do villainous things. But Bruce is always better them - in either morality or capability, oftentimes both. Others get diminished to make him look better. And when he does do the bad things (as this thread is about), it either gets twisted so he's justified or swept under the rug.

Though, I'll admit, there's a lot sweeping and some big rugs these days, given how often they want a hero to do something "shocking."

How? It checked every box and hit every criteria to make it fit in terms of both story and character, Hell Bruce even explains how he got it after the fact. People throw around the phrase “Batgod” way too often it’s started to lose its meaning. It’s pretty much boiled down to does Bruce show any sense of intelligence batgod, is he not getting his ass kicked on every page bat god,did he just survive against a highly compromised league who aren’t even using most of their powers Batgod.

It’s not about morality Bruce is a realist, he trust the league, with his life with the world but he’s not going to be caught with his pants down. Demonic possession, mind control, brainwashing, evil alternate universe counterparts exist in that world so it’s not an unreasonable idea to have some contingencies. On the capability side of things in almost every Batman vs other hero story we get he barley walks away and in each situation the other her is compromised in some way no one loses anything(unlike when Bruce is written terribly for others). Bruce gets chewed out for thins he does, he’ll he gets chewed out for **** he doesn’t do Batwoman blows away clay face and it’s somehow Bruce’s fault don’t mistake something happening off panel for it not happening.

[SiegePerilous02]

The lasso of truth isn’t a one of a kind item there are like 4 variants so it stands to reason that there could be more. It make perfect sense for Bruce based on the person he is to have it as it’s a way to incapacitate someone far more powerful than him without any bodily harm to said person oh and it did appear again after that issue.

It usually is a one of a kind item, forged from one of the Girdles of Gaea given to the Amazons by the goddesses and Hephaestus. Getting it from a God is pretty much the only way to get it, and usually IF there is another one, it comes from a God as well (Cassie's lasso). It's not the place of a Batman comic to alter the rules of where these things come from. It's not his house.

[Jcady59]

It usually is a one of a kind item, forged from one of the Girdles of Gaea given to the Amazons by the goddesses and Hephaestus. Getting it from a God is pretty much the only way to get it, and usually IF there is another one, it comes from a God as well (Cassie's lasso). It's not the place of a Batman comic to alter the rules of where these things come from. It's not his house.

It’s the house of DC and if they wish to alter the rules to one’s world they can that’s the down side of a connected universe. Not that it matters because they didn’t this is just another object created by Hephaestus, how it got from him to the supernatural black market where Bruce acquired it from who knows and in that regard I agree with you that it’s lazy. It doesn’t matter however as at some point in this objects history it became realistically possible for Bruce to get it.

[SiegePerilous02]

It’s the house of DC and if they wish to alter the rules to one’s world they can that’s the down side of a connected universe. Not that it matters because they didn’t this is just another object created by Hephaestus, how it got from him to the supernatural black market where Bruce acquired it from who knows and in that regard I agree with you that it’s lazy. It doesn’t matter however as at some point in this objects history it became realistically possible for Bruce to get it.

If the house of DC operates in using something from Wonder Woman's world falling into Batman's hands so he can prove he's the ultimate badass, the house of DC is full of crap. It highlights how they don't value their other IPs and even big name characters as much as him. Thus creating the self fulfilling prophecy that he's the only one of value.

A better example of Batgod is the Return of Bruce Wayne arc. Because it presents him as out of his depth, but Darkseid underestimates him and his ability to improvise. Batman is proven to be a badass simply by surviving long enough to get back to the present day and having the League deal with the Hyper Adapter. It proves he's an amazing human being who can stand with these Gods, but the Gods are not undermined to prop him up. That's how you do it, not Snyder's method of lazy Deus Ex Machinas.

[king81992]

It's true that stuff like "haha I have Kryptonite" are not things that didn't previously exist. It's more a matter of the reader going "so how long did Batman walk around with that in his pocket?"
The bit about Riddler was a joke, but Riddler actually DOES a decent job of challenging Batman's claim of detective skills ... on the rare occasions when he tries.
Ah, but which happens more often? Also the question here is about Batman's role in team books... what does he actually DO in teams?

Batman is a source of conflict on teams or somehow the solution to whatever problem the team faces, especially if he directly or indirectly caused the problem.

[Jcady59]

If the house of DC operates in using something from Wonder Woman's world falling into Batman's hands so he can prove he's the ultimate badass, the house of DC is full of crap. It highlights how they don't value their other IPs and even big name characters as much as him. Thus creating the self fulfilling prophecy that he's the only one of value.

A better example of Batgod is the Return of Bruce Wayne arc. Because it presents him as out of his depth, but Darkseid underestimates him and his ability to improvise. Batman is proven to be a badass simply by surviving long enough to get back to the present day and having the League deal with the Hyper Adapter. It proves he's an amazing human being who can stand with these Gods, but the Gods are not undermined to prop him up. That's how you do it, not Snyder's method of lazy Deus Ex Machinas.

It didn’t present Bruce as the ultimate badass it presents him resourceful,able to think on his toes and survive against extreme odds. Nobody is giving Bruce the gold star of badassery he scraped by against a compromised version of the league he doesn’t exactly look good. As for Wonder Woman no I disagree she should not have suffered any effects from this, she was compromised so her bad ass status was fine. Bruce didn’t soundly beat her he got lucky,put a magic string on her shoulder and escaped after she dominated the “fight”. Her character wasn’t damaged her stories weren’t damaged her IP was fine,nothing was lost. If some came out of that story angry about Wonder Woman than they went into it looking for something to be angry about. For the record I agree with you about the Return of Bruce Wayne in a perfect world we would have more stories like it, but we have to live with what we got.

[SiegePerilous02]

It didn’t present Bruce as the ultimate badass it presents him resourceful,able to think on his toes and survive against extreme odds. Nobody is giving Bruce the gold star of badassery he scraped by against a compromised version of the league he doesn’t exactly look good. As for Wonder Woman no I disagree she should not have suffered any effects from this, she was compromised so her bad ass status was fine. Bruce didn’t soundly beat her he got lucky,put a magic string on her shoulder and escaped after she dominated the “fight”. Her character wasn’t damaged her stories weren’t damaged her IP was fine,nothing was lost. If some came out of that story angry about Wonder Woman than they went into it looking for something to be angry about. For the record I agree with you about the Return of Bruce Wayne in a perfect world we would have more stories like it, but we have to live with what we got.

I'm not buying him as resourceful in a well written way. It makes him look like a Mary Sue with access to Deus Ex Machinas. I like Batman being legitimately resourceful within his own wheelhouse and playing field, it starts to get ridiculous when he's crossing into the fields of other DC heroes. He was a much better character before he started getting crazy prepared and punching above his weight class. It makes him boring.

Yes but you're saying this as (I'm guessing) primarily a Batman fan. From that perspective, you're not going to see anything being lost of as a big deal because you're not on the receiving end.

Batman fans shouldn't be telling everyone else to live with it and then be annoyed when Bruce gets bashed. Batman's the most popular superhero DC has and they bend over backwards to make him look good at all times, and he by far gets the most content with a lot of variety. Nobody else gets that, not even Superman at this point.

[The True Detective]

How? It checked every box and hit every criteria to make it fit in terms of both story and character, Hell Bruce even explains how he got it after the fact. People throw around the phrase “Batgod” way too often it’s started to lose its meaning. It’s pretty much boiled down to does Bruce show any sense of intelligence batgod, is he not getting his ass kicked on every page bat god,did he just survive against a highly compromised league who aren’t even using most of their powers Batgod.

It’s not about morality Bruce is a realist, he trust the league, with his life with the world but he’s not going to be caught with his pants down. Demonic possession, mind control, brainwashing, evil alternate universe counterparts exist in that world so it’s not an unreasonable idea to have some contingencies. On the capability side of things in almost every Batman vs other hero story we get he barley walks away and in each situation the other her is compromised in some way no one loses anything(unlike when Bruce is written terribly for others). Bruce gets chewed out for thins he does, he’ll he gets chewed out for **** he doesn’t do Batwoman blows away clay face and it’s somehow Bruce’s fault don’t mistake something happening off panel for it not happening.

The Batgod whining has been jumped the shark, as you said anytime he does ANYTHING remotely impressive, people will cry Batgod. It's hard to even take the complaints seriously anymore. I'm convinced that if Bruce could open a pickle jar someone else was struggling with that lame insult would rear it's ugly head. I especially find it funny how the JL/U Batman was called that for the things he did, but Robin on the Teen Titans cartoon who was pretty much Batgod Jr. never got labeled with any such nickname.

Teen Titans Robin could fight Slade evenly 1 on 1 even when Slade could beat the other 3 SUPERPOWERED members all by himself. But sure, a teenage boy with no powers is a match for him. Robin could also be a moody jerk on the show but he never gets **** for it. Bruce not acting like Mister Rogers makes him a monster tho.

Also, if Bruce is such a horrible person with so many negative character traits, how the hell is he a Mary Sue? Wouldn't a Mary Sue be someone with no flaws? You could call him one if he acted like Ned Flanders but he doesn't. He has flaws that get brought up by other characters all the damn time. "I don't like this character so I hate when they have impressive feats" isn't the same thing as said character being a Mary Sue.

[Zaresh]

The Batgod whining has been jumped the shark, as you said anytime he does ANYTHING remotely impressive, people will cry Batgod. It's hard to even take the complaints seriously anymore. I'm convinced that if Bruce could open a pickle jar someone else was struggling with that lame insult would rear it's ugly head. I especially find it funny how the JL/U Batman was called that for the things he did, but Robin on the Teen Titans cartoon who was pretty much Batgod Jr. never got labeled with any such nickname.

Teen Titans Robin could fight Slade evenly 1 on 1 even when Slade could beat the other 3 SUPERPOWERED members all by himself. But sure, a teenage boy with no powers is a match for him. Robin could also be a moody jerk on the show but he never gets **** for it. Bruce not acting like Mister Rogers makes him a monster tho.

Also, if Bruce is such a horrible person with so many negative character traits, how the hell is he a Mary Sue? Wouldn't a Mary Sue be someone with no flaws? You could call him one if he acted like Ned Flanders but he doesn't. He has flaws that get brought up by other characters all the damn time. "I don't like this character so I hate when they have impressive feats" isn't the same thing as said character being a Mary Sue.

Not a mary sue. People complain about him being a Gary Stu, another concept all togheter. I don't think he's either. But he has traits of one. I do think he's written as someone who's rarely depicted as in the wrong by in universe characters, he bassically always does as he wants without any kind consequences. And he definitely wins against people he shouldn't, not even with "prep time" quite often.

[The True Detective]

Not a mary sue. People complain about him being a Gary Stu, another concept all togheter. I don't think he's either. But he has traits of one. I do think he's written as someone who's rarely depicted as in the wrong by in universe characters, he bassically always does as he wants without any kind consequences. And he definitely wins against people he shouldn't, not even with "prep time" quite often.

Not really, the Batfamily are always chewing him out and calling him out whenever he does anything wrong. At best he's written as a "jerkass has a point" type, where people will admit he's right about something but still think he's an *******.