What's Your Headcanon For Why Batman Turned Into A Jerk In The '00s?

[Rise]

Batman is the most protected character in DC. His family isn't the cause for sure, but that still doesn't mean that it doesn't happen because of them sometimes.

I still roll my eyes everytime Tynion has Barbara yelling at him because of some forced drama and I don't necessary disgree that they can be a bit of burden on his character.

[Frontier]

Personally I don't think a kid who swears on his parents grave to wage war on all criminals is going to be dissuaded from doing so no matter how hard you push. That was the beginning of the unshakeable conviction that defines Bruce Wayne.

It proves that not every poor person must be a killer in making and that Batman didn't save Jason as much as he doomed him. It was the joker who killed him, but it was Batman who made him a target.

The same could be said for anyone who gets brought into the "life," but I don't think that devalues the good Jason did as Robin.

Batman is the most protected character in DC. His family isn't the cause for sure, but that still doesn't mean that it doesn't happen because of them sometimes.

I still roll my eyes everytime Tynion has Barbara yelling at him because of some forced drama and I don't necessary disgree that they can be a bit of burden on his character.

When was the last time we got a positive Bruce and Barbara moment? Feels like forever.

[SiegePerilous02]

I really don't think we need to go that far. There's a time and a place for camp but generally, I like my Batman to be serious.

It doesn't have to be permanent and I'm not entirely serious in the first place, but we've had things skew so far in the angst ridden direction for so long that it would be a breath of fresh air. Mostly in the comics where he's an inconsistent abuser who hits his kids, but it extends to other media. Nolan Batman was relatively stable but still had the dark grounded "realism," Snyder's Batman was a psycho who plotted to murder Superman and Reeves Batman may at least start out as another unstable and overly violent nutcase and we even have Pattinson saying he doesn't view him as a hero. It just gets exhausting and pretty pretentious after a while.

This is Batman, not super sophisticated adult entertainment. Or at least often times the attempts to make him too serious have the opposite intended effect of making it "mature." Often the more serious you treat superheroes without balancing it out with self aware entertainment and fantasy, the dumber they get.

Personally I don't think a kid who swears on his parents grave to wage war on all criminals is going to be dissuaded from doing so no matter how hard you push. That was the beginning of the unshakeable conviction that defines Bruce Wayne.

That's fine with Bruce because we need him to become Batman for story's sake, but no need to burden Alfred with one of the worst parenting jobs in comics history when he didn't have it before. We can't have Alfred say "well, he seems awfully determined so I might as well see how this "Batman" thing goes for a few years and maybe he'll get better" because Alfred isn't supposed to be an idiot.

The same could be said for anyone who gets brought into the "life," but I don't think that devalues the good Jason did as Robin..

Bruce is bringing kids into this life when nobody is forcing him to do it, and the kid definitely is not old enough to make such a decision. The good Jason did over his short time as Robin isn't worth losing his life and being resurrected as a traumatized anti-hero when Bruce could have done literally anything else to guide this kid. Bruce was the responsible adult, and he 100% doomed him.

DOTF is awful on multiple fronts, but it ruins the Robin role by letting the cat out of the bag. In a realistic world it is incredibly bad to bring a kid into your vigilante activities, but we can suspend disbelief with how Dick turned into one of the best heroes of the DCU as an adult. The Jason thing brings even more attention to the fact that Dick was a happy accident and then Bruce went and recruited some more kids. It's a very bad look for our hero.

[Zaresh]

It doesn't have to be permanent and I'm not entirely serious in the first place, but we've had things skew so far in the angst ridden direction for so long that it would be a breath of fresh air. Mostly in the comics where he's an inconsistent abuser who hits his kids, but it extends to other media. Nolan Batman was relatively stable but still had the dark grounded "realism," Snyder's Batman was a psycho who plotted to murder Superman and Reeves Batman may at least start out as another unstable and overly violent nutcase and we even have Pattinson saying he doesn't view him as a hero. It just gets exhausting and pretty pretentious after a while.

This is Batman, not super sophisticated adult entertainment. Or at least often times the attempts to make him too serious have the opposite intended effect of making it "mature." Often the more serious you treat superheroes without balancing it out with self aware entertainment and fantasy, the dumber they get.

Can I recommend you watch Justice League Action? Because I think you may like it.

[Frontier]

It doesn't have to be permanent and I'm not entirely serious in the first place, but we've had things skew so far in the angst ridden direction for so long that it would be a breath of fresh air. Mostly in the comics where he's an inconsistent abuser who hits his kids, but it extends to other media. Nolan Batman was relatively stable but still had the dark grounded "realism," Snyder's Batman was a psycho who plotted to murder Superman and Reeves Batman may at least start out as another unstable and overly violent nutcase and we even have Pattinson saying he doesn't view him as a hero. It just gets exhausting and pretty pretentious after a while.

This is Batman, not super sophisticated adult entertainment. Or at least often times the attempts to make him too serious have the opposite intended effect of making it "mature." Often the more serious you treat superheroes without balancing it out with self aware entertainment and fantasy, the dumber they get.

Snyder and King's Batman could get pretty campy. Whether it was the good kind of campy is probably up to the reader.

I think campy Batman in terms of live-action is a harder sell because of the stigma of the 60's show and Batman and Robin.

That's fine with Bruce because we need him to become Batman for story's sake, but no need to burden Alfred with one of the worst parenting jobs in comics history when he didn't have it before. We can't have Alfred say "well, he seems awfully determined so I might as well see how this "Batman" thing goes for a few years and maybe he'll get better" because Alfred isn't supposed to be an idiot.

If the worst thing Alfred did as a parent was letting Bruce be Batman then I'd still put him well above the several dozen other terrible parents in comic books. But I guess that also depends on your own perspective of Batman and what it means for Bruce.

Bruce is bringing kids into this life when nobody is forcing him to do it, and the kid definitely is not old enough to make such a decision. The good Jason did over his short time as Robin isn't worth losing his life and being resurrected as a traumatized anti-hero when Bruce could have done literally anything else to guide this kid. Bruce was the responsible adult, and he 100% doomed him.

There's no way to quantify the value of a life but I don't think that makes what Jason did as Robin and the lives he saved/help matter less.

Bruce thought he had potential as the next Robin, which he proved in action, but (as was often the case in Starlin's Batman run) no Superhero or person is capable of saving everyone, even those most important to him.

DOTF is awful on multiple fronts, but it ruins the Robin role by letting the cat out of the bag. In a realistic world it is incredibly bad to bring a kid into your vigilante activities, but we can suspend disbelief with how Dick turned into one of the best heroes of the DCU as an adult. The Jason thing brings even more attention to the fact that Dick was a happy accident and then Bruce went and recruited some more kids. It's a very bad look for our hero.

Dick wasn't the only sidekick though, there were quite a few in the DCU by then (and Tula's death in Crisis preceded Jason's death).

I mean, aside from the New 52 it's not like he immediately went shopping for a new Robin after Jason's death. There was a mourning period, Tim forced his way in, and then there was a period where there was friction and difficulty before Bruce and Tim became a proper Dynamic Duo. And then after that we only really had Bruce recruiting Cass (because people kind of exaggerate the whole "Bruce recruiting a bunch of kids into his crusade" thing).

[Jewel Runner]

I find it hard to put Jason's death on Bruce.
In the beginning of the story Bruce had taken Jason off of active duty as Robin, until Jason could get his problems sorted out, what resulted afterward was Jason getting his birth certificate and then running off on his own to find 3 women whose name started with "S" that he thought could be his mother, and when he finally found her she was a criminal who sold him out to keep her own crimes under wraps.
I don't wanna victim blame here but it was Jason's decisions and actions that brought him to where he was, it'd be one thing if he died on a patrol or while on a mission that was overseen by Bruce, but he didn't he died pursuing a personal matter after being taken off active duty, if anything Bruce and his status as Robin is what kept him from dying even earlier in the story.

[The True Detective]

No, him being an ass to them is the symptom, not the cause - he started with being that horrible to the other JL members several years before he did the same to the kids.

That's true but it doesn't change that certain writers do in fact make him an asshole simply to give the Batfamily members something to wangst about. As The Kid said in outside media like movies they're rarely there and he isn't as much of an ass. Most entertainment that has teenage or young adult characters always have an adult figure around for the kids to either rebel against or blame for all their problems it's a pretty common trope at this point.

In the Burton and Nolan movies Bruce wasn't abusive to Alfred nor was he much of a jerk. Batfleck obviously was what he was through most of BvS, because of 20 years of fighting crime and losing Robin but once he got over his hatred of Superman mellowed out a lot. He isn't a huge jerk to any of the JL members come that movie. The Batfamily aren't guaranteed to cause him to be an ass, but their presence does exasperate it a lot for cheap drama imo.

[Agent Z]

There are plenty of stories where Bruce acts like an ass to the Justice League or anyone else because Batman being as ass is what certain writers like regardless of his status quo. He isn't a jerk to them in Young Justice, Batman Ninja or any of the animated movies. Hell, the most infamous moments of Batjerk are arguably Tower of Babel, the Hiketeia and Infinite Crisis which aren't towards the Batfamily.

[The True Detective]

There are plenty of stories where Bruce acts like an ass to the Justice League or anyone else because Batman being as ass is what certain writers like regardless of his status quo. He isn't a jerk to them in Young Justice, Batman Ninja or any of the animated movies. Hell, the most infamous moments of Batjerk are arguably Tower of Babel, the Hiketeia and Infinite Crisis which aren't towards the Batfamily.

Yeah but the thing is him being a dick to the Batfamily looks much worse than him being one to the JL. The Batfamily are his kids and protegee's, a lot of them orphaned. Obviously that's a worse look than him being a jerk to a bunch superpowered adults. Being mean to a kid or someone much younger than you stands out more than being mean to someone your age.

And I don't know why you and other people keep pointing out how he isn't only a dick to the Batfamily, I don't think anyone has argued that he is. I know there are plenty of stories where he's an ass to people outside the Batfamily. But as I said it looks worse when he does it to his own kids and since they're apart of his franchise unlike the JL members it makes it look like writers are trying to placate to the "I like everyone in the Batfamily except Bruce" fans out there, whom there are many of judging by this forum alone.

If a sizeable portion of the comic book reading Batfandom hates Bruce and prefers his family, it stands to reason some writers will occasionally pander to them and give us Bruce as a jerk so a Batfamily member can them chew him out and make those fans happy. Batfamily fans LOVE seeing Bruce being "put in his place" and taken down a peg. I doubt writers are unaware of that and don't throw them a bone every now and then.

[Agent Z]

Yeah but the thing is him being a dick to the Batfamily looks much worse than him being one to the JL. The Batfamily are his kids and protegee's, a lot of them orphaned. Obviously that's a worse look than him being a jerk to a bunch superpowered adults. Being mean to a kid or someone much younger than you stands out more than being mean to someone your age.

And I don't know why you and other people keep pointing out how he isn't only a dick to the Batfamily, I don't think anyone has argued that he is. I know there are plenty of stories where he's an ass to people outside the Batfamily. But as I said it looks worse when he does it to his own kids and since they're apart of his franchise unlike the JL members it makes it look like writers are trying to placate to the "I like everyone in the Batfamily except Bruce" fans out there, whom there are many of judging by this forum alone.

If a sizeable portion of the comic book reading Batfandom hates Bruce and prefers his family, it stands to reason some writers will occasionally pander to them and give us Bruce as a jerk so a Batfamily member can them chew him out and make those fans happy. Batfamily fans LOVE seeing Bruce being "put in his place" and taken down a peg. I doubt writers are unaware of that and don't throw them a bone every now and then.

Batfamily fans don't like Batjerk anymore than you do. Dick Grayson fans don't enjoy seeing him getting hit by Bruce, Jason Todd fans don't like seeing him rejected and victim blamed by Bruce. This idea that the majority of fans of the Batfamily enjoy Bruce acting like an ass to them is completely false. If they did, stories like War Games would not be so infamous. Most Batfamily fans are perfectly fine with a decrease in Bruce's dickery and him acting more like a kind and reasonable father figure to them. If they enjoy seeing Batman "put in his place", it's only from the perspective of seeing a character who acts like a jerk getting called out for it. But that does not mean they actually want stories like that on a constant basis. Especially when you have people who keep scapegoating the Batfamily for Batman's increased horribleness. The biggest champions of a nicer, more stable Batman have been Batfamily fans. Meanwhile, the only time I see fans of a solo Batman or smaller Batfamily complain about Batjerk, it's usually when he's actually being called out for it. People love Miller's Batman but if that guy were treated like a villain and constantly getting his ass kicked by other heroes, the people who defended him wouldn't be so fond of that take.

The reason people bring up Bruce being awful to other people is because this board is filled with people who are hostile to the Batfamily and will look for any excuse to get rid of them, including insinuating, if not outright stating, that their existence is the reason Batman has become more and more loathsome over the years.

I myself hate Batjerk. But if he's going to show up, I'd rather his behavior not be glossed over or glorified.

[The True Detective]

Batfamily fans don't like Batjerk anymore than you do. Dick Grayson fans don't enjoy seeing him getting hit by Bruce, Jason Todd fans don't like seeing him rejected and victim blamed by Bruce. This idea that the majority of fans of the Batfamily enjoy Bruce acting like an ass to them is completely false. If they did, stories like War Games would not be so infamous. Most Batfamily fans are perfectly fine with a decrease in Bruce's dickery and him acting more like a kind and reasonable father figure to them. If they enjoy seeing Batman "put in his place", it's only from the perspective of seeing a character who acts like a jerk getting called out for it. But that does not mean they actually want stories like that on a constant basis. Especially when you have people who keep scapegoating the Batfamily for Batman's increased horribleness. The biggest champions of a nicer, more stable Batman have been Batfamily fans. Meanwhile, the only time I see fans of a solo Batman or smaller Batfamily complain about Batjerk, it's usually when he's actually being called out for it. People love Miller's Batman but if that guy were treated like a villain and constantly getting his ass kicked by other heroes, the people who defended him wouldn't be so fond of that take.

The reason people bring up Bruce being awful to other people is because this board is filled with people who are hostile to the Batfamily and will look for any excuse to get rid of them, including insinuating, if not outright stating, that their existence is the reason Batman has become more and more loathsome over the years.

I myself hate Batjerk. But if he's going to show up, I'd rather his behavior not be glossed over or glorified.

On this board? The very same board where Bruce can't even win a popularity contest against his own sidekicks? I won't deny that there are Bruce fans who hate the Batfamily and wish they were either gone or significantly lowered but they're a vocal minority. The average poster on this forum either flat out despises Bruce or tolerates him and strongly prefers his family, even when he isn't being a dick. At this point most posters here just don't like the character anymore, you could make him act like Adam West's version from here on out and the Batfamily would still be more liked around these parts.

This thread which is yet another negative thread about him has way more posts than Bruce's very own respect thread which, surprise, surprise also has a lot less views than the other Bat characters respect threads.

[Jewel Runner]

I'm not sure taking anything posted on this site as general consensus either way is a good idea.
I mean look at the X-Men forums that place is a mess and it'd be a crying shame to use it as an example of the average X-Men fan, and I'm definitely not doing the same here.

[The True Detective]

I'm not sure taking anything posted on this site as general consensus either way is a good idea.
I mean look at the X-Men forums that place is a mess and it'd be a crying shame to use it as an example of the average X-Men fan, and I'm definitely not doing the same here.

If you're referring to me, I'm specifically talking about Bruce's popularity on this forum. Him consistently losing Batfamily popularity contests voted on by members of this forum is a good sign he isn't too liked here. Obviously among the general public he's more popular than the rest of the Batfamily combined.

[Jewel Runner]

If you're referring to me, I'm specifically talking about Bruce's popularity on this forum. Him consistently losing Batfamily popularity contests voted on by members of this forum is a good sign he isn't too liked here. Obviously among the general public he's more popular than the rest of the Batfamily combined.

Ok as long you're referring to this forum and not in general, because after years of browsing and lurking in many different message boards and forums I've found many things people say on this site to be a minority opinion compared to other places.

[Astralabius]

A lot of this just tells me that the Batfamily really is a burden on Batman since a lot of times he's a big asshole to the kids for their development's sake. The movies were very smart to basically discard them when they adapt it to the screen. Even the 'Watsonian' perspective Dick brings was easily replaced by Alfred. Let's not forget that Robin was added a year into Batman because they wanted it to be friendly to kids. The first 11-12 issues of Detective Comics is Batman at his truest essence IMO, a real creature of the night. Modern interpretations that capture that and toss out Robin and co. is perfectly fine with me for adaptations

To answer the question to OP, I view it as a culmination of the events that happened to him. Jason dying, Barbara being crippled, all of No Man's Land.. it basically ends in him becoming a controlling asshole which tbh makes sense to me. I don't really have a problem with his character going in that direction

When was the last time Bruce was being an ass to them and DC allowed him to be the antagonist in their story for their developement?
Bruce got off easy by solving his problems with Jason by telling him he "deserved to get kicked in the ass from time to time" after beating him half to death. They even had Bruce and Jason hug only a few issues after Bruce almost killed him. Bruce's failure to help Ric got resolved by Bruce claiming he watched over Dick in secret the entire time (which didn't make a lot of sense). Bruce punching Tim in the face got revealed to be a secret code. Bruce's failure to take care of Damian was explained with Bruce simply not realizing how hard Alfred's death had been on Damian. The fact that Damian had been going off the rails way before that, that it was Bruce who had sent Damian to Gotham which caused Alfred's death in the first place and that Damian had told Bruce how terrible he felt at Alfred's wake all got ignored so Bruce could be depicted as a caring father again.
None of the Robins were allowed to really use what Bruce had done to them or failed to do for them as a conflict in their story. Everything got changed or ignored in Bruce's favor.