What's Your Headcanon For Why Batman Turned Into A Jerk In The '00s?

[marhawkman]

The Batgod whining has been jumped the shark, as you said anytime he does ANYTHING remotely impressive, people will cry Batgod. It's hard to even take the complaints seriously anymore. I'm convinced that if Bruce could open a pickle jar someone else was struggling with that lame insult would rear it's ugly head. I especially find it funny how the JL/U Batman was called that for the things he did, but Robin on the Teen Titans cartoon who was pretty much Batgod Jr. never got labeled with any such nickname.

he didn't that's news to me....

Teen Titans Robin could fight Slade evenly 1 on 1 even when Slade could beat the other 3 SUPERPOWERED members all by himself. But sure, a teenage boy with no powers is a match for him. Robin could also be a moody jerk on the show but he never gets shit for it. Bruce not acting like Mister Rogers makes him a monster tho.

It made zero sense for Robin to beat Slade at all ever. In RPG terms it's like having a level 20 character fight a level 50... you shouldn't expect to win. But Robin does. Also Robin has no powers and Slade is a genuine meta-human. Low tier mind you, but he's stronger than an ordinary person will ever be, and heals faster. Batman has trouble beating him because of that.

Also, if Bruce is such a horrible person with so many negative character traits, how the hell is he a Mary Sue? Wouldn't a Mary Sue be someone with no flaws? You could call him one if he acted like Ned Flanders but he doesn't. He has flaws that get brought up by other characters all the damn time. "I don't like this character so I hate when they have impressive feats" isn't the same thing as said character being a Mary Sue.

See... having "negative" character traits is only a flaw if those traits actually influence the way you interact with things and people. If all people do is tell you you're crazy... it's not a flaw, it's a quirk. Batman's interesting character traits are more a quirk than a flaw... despite the fact that they really should be problems.

In my headcanon, Batman isnt a jerk. I dont read stories where he is an @$$hole. If Batman doesnt smile sometimes, he's not MY Batman! Paul Dini's Detective is the last Batman I read. The further away he gets from the Jose Louis Garcia Lopez Batman as seen in the style guide, the less I care! They can't even draw him properly anymore!

I believe that Grant Morrison and the Bat-God syndrome is to blame! I dont want a reinvention of Batman. I want him t return to how he was in the 70's and be played exactly how he was from that time into the early 90's. That is Batman! Not this whiny guy with 50 million Bat-family sidekicks.

But Gotham has also changed. It used to look like Burton's Gotham City... Then, in the comics, at least the art I've seen online, everything looks like a real city... like Atlanta, GA or is indistinguishable from NY or Los Angeles. The days of Bruce, Dick, Todd-Dead, Tim and Babs (Oracle) have been replaced by something that is just... not what it used to be! YUCKY!

honestly, I like the idea of Batman. But i personally feel that there are at present more stories where he's written badly than written well.

For example: the "no kill rule". Batman is famous for his idea that if he kills people he doesn't deserve to be called a hero. But... he's fine with beating people half to death and leaving them with no medical attention. Oh and the no kill rule apparently only applies to humans. Aliens? Poison Ivy's pod-people? Even if they're named characters there's a good chance you'll never see them again.

For example: in New Batman Adventures episode "Chemistry"; Bruce Wayne meets a woman named Susan Maguire and marries her.... then later kills her as Batman after he finds out she's one of Poison Ivy's pod-people. They even put in a scene where he tosses his wedding ring into the ocean afterwards... lol wut? It's a weird episode because Batman goes to a lot of work to save people... but only humans. Heck he doesn't even save Poison Ivy... he leaves her on a burning hulk of a ship as it sinks in the deep ocean. Yes.. Poison Ivy is the reason the ship was a burning hulk. But... he leaves her to die.

As far as I know, the gothic, Burton-esque look began not too long off when Burton made his movie. It was then something that was "not what it used to be". Frankly, I thought the Gothic look got a bit stale and boring over time, though certainly it grants more obvious "flavor" than any real-life city has (not that they don't have flavor and the ones you listed are certainly different from each other). Not a huge fan of gargoyles, etc., though it's not a deal-breaker for me. Of course, I'm not a fan of "cursed Gotham," either.

I think part of it is a desire to make it look unique. the gargoyle architecture makes it stand out from other locations in the comics.

[Comics N' Toons]

My point about Gotham looking like Burton but now looking different stands... What I meant tho was that, even in the 70's, Gotham looked trashy, dingy, "gothic" and then Burton took it over the top and sometime under the pen of Breyfogle, it was a copy of Burton's Gotham... The Gotham of old was gothic. Since the New 52, it just hasn't been the same!

[Mia]

In-universe, Morrison explains it best in 'Last Rites'...the escalating violence and tragedies, the higher stakes, and the feeling that years into his mission it was going nowhere broke down Bruce psychologically over the years until he basically became Batjerk.

If this is the case. Then you can just attribute it to him shutting down his emotions so that he can function much better. He also might behave that way so that he will be left alone. It's a coping strategy of many introverts, who want their space because people can be draining.

[SiegePerilous02]

For example: in New Batman Adventures episode "Chemistry"; Bruce Wayne meets a woman named Susan Maguire and marries her.... then later kills her as Batman after he finds out she's one of Poison Ivy's pod-people. They even put in a scene where he tosses his wedding ring into the ocean afterwards... lol wut? It's a weird episode because Batman goes to a lot of work to save people... but only humans. Heck he doesn't even save Poison Ivy... he leaves her on a burning hulk of a ship as it sinks in the deep ocean. Yes.. Poison Ivy is the reason the ship was a burning hulk. But... he leaves her to die..

Batman didn't kill Susan directly. He locked her in the room after she attacked him with tentacles, and is still banging on the door and shouting after him when he leaves. She goes down with the ship later when there is no time to go back for her even if he wanted to. Still his actions that lead to her death, but not direct or deliberate.

He also does NOT leave Ivy to die. He attempts to grab her hand while hanging on a rope from the Bat-plane, but a wave hits her and sweeps her away at the last minute and he misses her.

There are inconsistencies with how Batman handles Ivy's plant creatures in general, but I wouldn't say these two are good examples.

[marhawkman]

Batman didn't kill Susan directly. He locked her in the room after she attacked him with tentacles, and is still banging on the door and shouting after him when he leaves. She goes down with the ship later when there is no time to go back for her even if he wanted to. Still his actions that lead to her death, but not direct or deliberate.

He also does NOT leave Ivy to die. He attempts to grab her hand while hanging on a rope from the Bat-plane, but a wave hits her and sweeps her away at the last minute and he misses her.

There are inconsistencies with how Batman handles Ivy's plant creatures in general, but I wouldn't say these two are good examples.

They semi make sense... if you don't question why Batman is running away in a super-hurry. Sure, get out of boiler blast range.... but why aren't you at least checking to see if they're dead?

And yeah technically Batman didn't kill Susan directly. But also he didn't try to save her at all. Like the wedding ring thing, it read as "good riddance".

Some of the others though? yeah. Herbicide to the face... now you have no face. If not for the fact it's green goop, it'd have been too gory for a cartoon.

[SiegePerilous02]

They semi make sense... if you don't question why Batman is running away in a super-hurry. Sure, get out of boiler blast range.... but why aren't you at least checking to see if they're dead?

And yeah technically Batman didn't kill Susan directly. But also he didn't try to save her at all. Like the wedding ring thing, it read as "good riddance".

Some of the others though? yeah. Herbicide to the face... now you have no face. If not for the fact it's green goop, it'd have been too gory for a cartoon.

Why does he need to confirm if she's dead or not? That doesn't contradict what I said in my post. Killing the plant monster was not a priority, escaping with the civilians was.

The ring flick doesn't read as a "good riddance" to me. It's too melancholic for that.

[BatmanJones]

Without checking the years in which this shift happened, my answer is not just head-canon; it's canon. (I mean if memory serves which it probably doesn't.) My best guess is that the early origin of asshole Batman occurred when Grant Morrison's JLA turned him into Bat-god, beginning in the very first arc, along with Waid's Tower of Babel and all that naturally succeeded those stories. So, though my memory about this is probably wrong and so I'm probably wrong, I'm crediting the Morrison/Waid JLA. Wasn't that around the time he started responding to questions with non-words like "Tt" or "Hrm"? Somebody correct me because I'm pretty sure I need correcting.

[Ishmael]

If this is the case. Then you can just attribute it to him shutting down his emotions so that he can function much better. He also might behave that way so that he will be left alone. It's a coping strategy of many introverts, who want their space because people can be draining.

I think this is a pretty good explanation for it.

Oddly enough, the best portrait of this I've ever seen was in Action Comics #766 by Joe Kelly. Superman enlists Batman's help to find Lois (who's missing) because he's been poisoned and needs the aid. Towards the end the tension between them comes to a head and there's two pages of Batman speaking to Superman - very intensely - that has always stayed with me. Kelly completely nails the "compartmentalize my emotions so I can do the job" thing, and it's also clear Bruce is paying a price for it as a person. It's really well done.

My headcanon pretty much squares with what Morrison said: the life he leads takes a horrible toll.

So far as the books themselves go, I agree with folks pointing out that the transition seems to begin in Batman and the Outsiders (where Bats is portrayed rather unflatteringly when he leaves the JLA), and appears again in Giffen/DeMattis' Justice Leauge. They portray him as the straightman to everyone else's shenanigans ... to the point that Batjerk appears (and I think he's even called that at one point). They exaggerate the broody self-absorbed stuff, and it kinda sticks. Morrison's "batgod" in JLA seems heavily indebted to them.

[marhawkman]

Why does he need to confirm if she's dead or not? That doesn't contradict what I said in my post. Killing the plant monster was not a priority, escaping with the civilians was.

The ring flick doesn't read as a "good riddance" to me. It's too melancholic for that.

The main point here is: if this was Joker and a bunch of normal people dressed as clowns, what would Batman have done?

Obviously he would NOT have had Robin and Batgirl literally melting their faces by spraying them with toxic gas. What would he have done instead?

[SiegePerilous02]

The main point here is: if this was Joker and a bunch of normal people dressed as clowns, what would Batman have done?

Obviously he would NOT have had Robin and Batgirl literally melting their faces by spraying them with toxic gas. What would he have done instead?

He would have reached for Joker same way he did for Ivy (he may actually have tried a little less hard with Joker actually), and not killed any of the henchmen. Yes, he largely handles Ivy's plant monsters with more lethality than human foes, with the rare exception of someone like Ferak in NML, and that's contradictory.

I'm just not following what you mean by questioning why Bruce is running away in a super hurry (in response to my saying he didn't kill Susan, at least not directly) or why he needs to check if they are dead. Is the issue him killing them, or not killing them effectively enough?

[Gaius]

I kind of figured if Bats was in a situation like that with Joker, he'd probably prioritize getting innocents/civilians out of the way first and then Joker but if Joker drowned while he did, he wouldn't feel particularly bad about being unable to save him.

[SiegePerilous02]

I kind of figured if Bats was in a situation like that with Joker, he'd probably prioritize getting innocents/civilians out of the way first and then Joker but if Joker drowned while he did, he wouldn't feel particularly bad about being unable to save him.

Yep, I think he'd hesitate much less with Ivy (and a big chunk of his other villains) than the Joker.

[marhawkman]

He would have reached for Joker same way he did for Ivy (he may actually have tried a little less hard with Joker actually), and not killed any of the henchmen. Yes, he largely handles Ivy's plant monsters with more lethality than human foes, with the rare exception of someone like Ferak in NML, and that's contradictory.

which is the point I was making. This episode went to a lot of trouble to establish that they're pod-people and not just plants.... then Batman uses lethal force to "subdue" them any time it's convenient.

I'm just not following what you mean by questioning why Bruce is running away in a super hurry (in response to my saying he didn't kill Susan, at least not directly) or why he needs to check if they are dead. Is the issue him killing them, or not killing them effectively enough?

The running away bit was an aspect of questioning IF he's really trying to save them, or just going though the motions. Yes, saving the hostages is the top priority, but I'm not sure he even got all of them. Which is part of why his decision to leave felt weird. Sure getting people to safety is priority one... but that doesn't require you to leave the scene when you have multiple vehicles... one of which isn't being used to transport passengers in the first place.

This is something I brought up because the ending of the episode... kinda ruined the episode IMO. It felt like the writers were compressing the story to force things to wrap up super fast. It kinda feels like the original idea was a 2-part ep and got trimmed for length to force it into a one-off. Short version: I think it's bad writing.

[batnbreakfast]

Short version: I think it's bad writing.

With that we're back on topic.
Still can't wrap my head around OMAC Project. Rucka mostly wrote stories I love. Was that editorial's influence connecting Bruce and Brother Eye?

[SiegePerilous02]

The running away bit was an aspect of questioning IF he's really trying to save them, or just going though the motions. Yes, saving the hostages is the top priority, but I'm not sure he even got all of them. Which is part of why his decision to leave felt weird. Sure getting people to safety is priority one... but that doesn't require you to leave the scene when you have multiple vehicles... one of which isn't being used to transport passengers in the first place.

This is something I brought up because the ending of the episode... kinda ruined the episode IMO. It felt like the writers were compressing the story to force things to wrap up super fast. It kinda feels like the original idea was a 2-part ep and got trimmed for length to force it into a one-off. Short version: I think it's bad writing.

As mature as it could be, it was still a kids cartoon airing on Kids WB. He definitely got all the hostages, realism be damned lol.
Agreed it was kind of a weak episode overall, and I didn't care for most of TNBA in general.