What's Your Headcanon For Why Batman Turned Into A Jerk In The '00s?

[Gaius]

Yep, I think he'd hesitate much less with Ivy (and a big chunk of his other villains) than the Joker.

Dick: Gordon's saying they've found the Joker's body. Seems like he drowned"

Bruce: Damn...Anyway let's call it in for the night, Alfred's making steak".

[Timothy Hunter]

Without checking the years in which this shift happened, my answer is not just head-canon; it's canon. (I mean if memory serves which it probably doesn't.) My best guess is that the early origin of asshole Batman occurred when Grant Morrison's JLA turned him into Bat-god, beginning in the very first arc, along with Waid's Tower of Babel and all that naturally succeeded those stories. So, though my memory about this is probably wrong and so I'm probably wrong, I'm crediting the Morrison/Waid JLA. Wasn't that around the time he started responding to questions with non-words like "Tt" or "Hrm"? Somebody correct me because I'm pretty sure I need correcting.

What was the most dickish thing Batman did in the Morrison run? I remember the over emphasis on contingency plans, but I don't recall Bruce being at any time antagonistic or abusive toward his colleagues before Tower of Babel in JLA.

[SiegePerilous02]

Bruce's status as Bat-God in Morrison's run tends to be overhyped. His intellect nearly dooms the team when the Key traps them, and he doesn't outshine any of the other Gods in the "pantheon" with his actions.

IMO, JL/U Bat-God favoritism did more damage on this front than Morrison. If they were looking at that run for inspiration, they missed the fact that Morrison didn't kiss just Batman's ass 24/7

[K. Jones]

Definitely feels like the case of escalating crises.

He'd just recovered from a massive back injury and got back on his feet and put his faith in his allies and was rewarded by having the luck or chance to start fresh then it seems like everything in the universe started conspiring against him (Cataclysm, No Man's Land ... President Luthor ... Hush) so he started conspiring back. But it wasn't all structured that way, like in life there were ups and downs, moments of joy and friendship, contrasted by paranoia.

[marhawkman]

Definitely feels like the case of escalating crises.

He'd just recovered from a massive back injury and got back on his feet and put his faith in his allies and was rewarded by having the luck or chance to start fresh then it seems like everything in the universe started conspiring against him (Cataclysm, No Man's Land ... President Luthor ... Hush) so he started conspiring back. But it wasn't all structured that way, like in life there were ups and downs, moments of joy and friendship, contrasted by paranoia.

You left out his short tenure as Blackrock

Superman actually talked Blackrock into abandoning Batman by explaining Batman's many personality defects to Blackrock. Then Blackrock decides it doesn't WANT Batman as a host any more Thing is... Blackrock can verify that everything Superman said is true.

Hmm... this reminds me... Blackrock is one of the few enemies Superman actually tried to kill. Granted, this was only because he thought it was non-sentient at the time. Each of the times he'd fought it Superman only heard the host speaking.... until it was Batman. Then the Blackrock is like "nope, not letting Batman do stuff!" Which is interesting because... that's actually the reason Blackrock took Batman as a host. He was pissed that Superman tried to kill him.

[Gaius]

Morrison pretty much wrote everyone on god-mode in his JLA run, so it's much less obnoxious than the stuff like Batman writers having him pull an anti-lasso out of his ass or being able to use Lantern rings with no problem. It's everything people complain about Silver Age Superman suddenly having this never before seen power that we only learned he had this issue.

Might be me but there was a sense of humor about how he wrote Batman being this overly prepared nutcase that's not really present in other writers but that might just my personal view.

[Alan2099]

Morrison pretty much wrote everyone on god-mode in his JLA run, so it's much less obnoxious than the stuff like Batman writers having him pull an anti-lasso out of his ass or being able to use Lantern rings with no problem. It's everything people complain about Silver Age Superman suddenly having this never before seen power that we only learned he had this issue.

Might be me but there was a sense of humor about how he wrote Batman being this overly prepared nutcase that's not really present in other writers but that might just my personal view.

I seem to recall one interview were Morrison said he wrote Batman like he was James Bond.

He wasn't angsty or a jerk, he was just cool and smug. I think a lot of writers can't tell the difference between being smug and just being a dick to people.

[K. Jones]

Morrison pretty much wrote everyone on god-mode in his JLA run, so it's much less obnoxious than the stuff like Batman writers having him pull an anti-lasso out of his ass or being able to use Lantern rings with no problem. It's everything people complain about Silver Age Superman suddenly having this never before seen power that we only learned he had this issue.

Might be me but there was a sense of humor about how he wrote Batman being this overly prepared nutcase that's not really present in other writers but that might just my personal view.

There's serious cathartic satisfaction in 'competency porn'. If the Justice League are supposed to be the top super-heroes, as an ensemble they all should be seven times more capable of impossible tasks when working together as a team. Some of Batman's purist "Bat-God" modes are likely because as a member of the JLA he has access to the impossible tools of his fellow heroes in addition to his own skills. I thought that JLA Classified three-parter that serves as a prelude to Seven Soldiers kind of literally explained that to us.

I like "Bat-God" as a simple descriptor of a trope or type of Batman scene where he plays out an unbelievable Batman Gambit or just show of insane skill, and even for writers who over-rely on that type of thing, but just that - a simple descriptor. I don't think there's ever actually been a proper "Bat-God Phase" where it's been all that overtly Bat-Goddish. But I do think we can definitely box that 2000s period, particularly the 2003-2005 kind of span, to that sort of ultimate dickishness phase where he was planning Anti-JLA backup plans and fighting with his sidekicks and all that, having taken either Morrison's "no I'm just part-time League" gimmick to mean that he's anti-social (really he's just the busiest man in the DCU).

I didn't even think Tower of Babel was the peak of this, I think it's The O.M.A.C. Project - both the peak but also the rebuttal of the whole notion. Batman shouldn't play that much of a part in 'playing god' levels of Jack Kirby alt-future potentialities. He's an outlaw and decidedly anti-authoritarian. He'd burn every super-powered AI 'Big Brother' anti-privacy program to the ground before it ever got started.

[SiegePerilous02]

Morrison pretty much wrote everyone on god-mode in his JLA run, so it's much less obnoxious than the stuff like Batman writers having him pull an anti-lasso out of his ass or being able to use Lantern rings with no problem. It's everything people complain about Silver Age Superman suddenly having this never before seen power that we only learned he had this issue.

Might be me but there was a sense of humor about how he wrote Batman being this overly prepared nutcase that's not really present in other writers but that might just my personal view.

It's even worse than the Superman stuff. The Silver Age, DC in particular, was pure "we have to maintain the status quo by the end of the issue, but everything can get absolutely bonkers between the first and last panel." Superman being outlandish in the Silver Age isn't bothersome because the stories weren't meant to be taken seriously. And it's not like crossovers with other heroes were that common back then outside of JL for him to either upstage other heroes on their own turf or have them be turned into villains for his benefit like we see in Injustice.

Early Silver Age JL, which featured Superman at the height of his powers, deserves credit for presenting stories that at least attempted to allow every hero the time to shine. Including Batman. Even Wonder Woman is treated far better in those early issues than you'd expect, she's a competent badass like the men and not victim to some of the dicey writing the silver age Marvel women got. If they could figure it out back then when comics were less "sophisticated," why can't they now?

[marhawkman]

There's serious cathartic satisfaction in 'competency porn'. If the Justice League are supposed to be the top super-heroes, as an ensemble they all should be seven times more capable of impossible tasks when working together as a team. Some of Batman's purist "Bat-God" modes are likely because as a member of the JLA he has access to the impossible tools of his fellow heroes in addition to his own skills. I thought that JLA Classified three-parter that serves as a prelude to Seven Soldiers kind of literally explained that to us.

I like "Bat-God" as a simple descriptor of a trope or type of Batman scene where he plays out an unbelievable Batman Gambit or just show of insane skill, and even for writers who over-rely on that type of thing, but just that - a simple descriptor. I don't think there's ever actually been a proper "Bat-God Phase" where it's been all that overtly Bat-Goddish. But I do think we can definitely box that 2000s period, particularly the 2003-2005 kind of span, to that sort of ultimate dickishness phase where he was planning Anti-JLA backup plans and fighting with his sidekicks and all that, having taken either Morrison's "no I'm just part-time League" gimmick to mean that he's anti-social (really he's just the busiest man in the DCU).

I didn't even think Tower of Babel was the peak of this, I think it's The O.M.A.C. Project - both the peak but also the rebuttal of the whole notion. Batman shouldn't play that much of a part in 'playing god' levels of Jack Kirby alt-future potentialities. He's an outlaw and decidedly anti-authoritarian. He'd burn every super-powered AI 'Big Brother' anti-privacy program to the ground before it ever got started.

Also some writers at DC seem to want to treat "martial artist" like it's a super power. Yeah, no that's bad writing. Lobo may not use Kung-fu... but he's definitely a skilled fighter. Martial artist isn't a super power unless it's one of the fictional mystical martial arts... but that's not a physical skill, it's magic. Oh and Batman doesn't use any of the magic martial arts. In theory, Livewire should be able to curb stomp Batman in a fist fight. Why? because she's able to throw a punch faster than Batman can blink. It's hard to win if you can't even think as fast as your opponent moves.

[Tzigone]

Also some writers at DC seem to want to treat "martial artist" like it's a super power.

Definitely true. But that long pre-dates modern comics, and is present in a wide variety of entertainment. Also, it usually applies only to eastern martial arts - people don't think that wrestling is also a martial art. Well, may be not pro wrestling...but it might have as much in common with real ones as comic book martial arts do.

[marhawkman]

Definitely true. But that long pre-dates modern comics, and is present in a wide variety of entertainment. Also, it usually applies only to eastern martial arts - people don't think that wrestling is also a martial art. Well, may be not pro wrestling...but it might have as much in common with real ones as comic book martial arts do.

Heh, reminds me of a B:TAS episode. Batman has to deal with some fictional martial art that insta kills by the use of pressure points. Oh and of course it's a technique you can only learn by stealing an ancient scroll from a monastery in the Himalayas...

[hareluyafan1]

Batman has become proceedingly more brooding over time starting in the Bronze Age and reaching it's apex in the 2000s. However from the 70s to the 90s, despite his moody and macabre demeaner, it was very clear that Bruce Wayne deeply loved his inner circle of friends. This all changed immediately after No-Man's Land ended.

I'm currently reading the 1993-2008 Robin ongoing in it's
entirety and you can immediately notice the shift between loving surrogate father to machiavellian asshole. During Dixon's run, Batman tells Stephanie Brown Tim Drake is Robin without consulting Tim on the issue. At the end of Jon Lewis's run Batman gives Tim a nervous breakdown by leading him to believe that Alfred from the future traveled back in time to warn him of a traitor in the Bat-Family. The amount of terrible things that Batman inflicted among those closest to him in the 2000s happened so frequently that I believe it must have been editorially mandated.

Tell me about it. I'm also reading the 1993 Robin series and when I got to the Charaxes arc I was shocked. I was like "what? Bruce Wayne bought the Dzerchenko's business and gave them a really great deal so they could stay and also move into a nice new place? And he did this precisely because he knew how much Tim and Ariana liked each other? Is this really the same guy that emotionally abused and psychologically tortured Tim?"

[Jackalope89]

One would think that Jason being brutally murdered would be a sure turning point. But of course, the timeline is continuously smudged up.

[bat39]

I might have replied to this thread earlier (God knows, it was over a year ago!), but for what it's worth here's my 2 cents...

Batman went through a lot in the late 80's and 90's. Jason's death, Barbara's paralysis, Knightfall, No Man's Land...and in-universe all of that was within a span of about 3-4 years at most. That's enough to traumatize anyone. An ordinary person would have probably hung up the cowl and refused to get out of bed ever again...it takes the willpower of a Bruce Wayne to persevere, even if the strain of doing so damages him emotionally and psychologically.

I also think Batman's career eventually reaches a point where he realizes that, after all these years, he isn't making a permanent difference to Gotham. Things got better for a while, but then they start getting even worse than when he started. He's caught in an endless cycle of violence and death. All of that is bound to impact him as well.