What's Your Headcanon For Why Batman Turned Into A Jerk In The '00s?

[SiegePerilous02]

I've honestly never seen the post-crisis Batman as any more "unstable" than pre-crisis Batman honestly (although Yes he did go through a major Jerkass phase in the early 2000's) Hell pre-crisis Batman had his share of "moments" like that too, like when he blew up at Dick during the Gerry Conways Killer Croc arc or when he blamed his parents for dying when Silver St Cloud left him or when he was drummed out of the Outsiders. Alfred's always been devoted to serving and caring for Bruce in both continuities as well. There was a story arc by Len Wein where Gentleman Ghost took over Wayne Manor and hypnotized Alfred into being his butler. He broke that control when Ghost ordered him to kill Batman and so regardless of whether or not he raised Bruce in either continuity, there's always been more there than a simple professional master/servant relationship.

I remember the Silver St. Cloud one. That is hilariously benign compared to his later antics. He's just yelling at a portrait in frustration and feels bad instantly, everyone does stuff like that in their life. Blowing up at Dick couldn't have been that bad because nobody cites it as an example of abuse compared to the post Crisis iteration punching Dick in the face after the death of Jason, or the antics that lead to OMACs and the deaths of countless Amazons and War Games. I have admittedly not read Outsiders and don't really have any desire to if it laid some of the seeds for his later incarnations.

Alfred's devotion is less problematic in the older comics. When he keeps coming back after **** like War Games, Murder/Fugitive or Infinite Crisis, it's a whole different story. Also a different context because he's been raising Bruce since he was a kid, so it comes across as a warped co-dependency that he was in position to prevent but didn't. And this example of pre-Crisis devotion kind of proves the retcon of Alfred raising him wasn't entirely necessary because the closeness was already there. And was much healthier.

I'm just gonna reiterate what Frontier said on the matter, It's an entirely different relationship but no less important.

And I have to reiterate what Tzigone also said. The dynamics changed and feel off, and I've yet to be convinced the change was for the better.

Well yeah, Otherwise there's no Batman.

Then Alfred failed as a guardian if one attempt at intervention didn't work, because I doubt Thomas and martha would want their son to live a life as Batman. At least the modern Batman we're stuck with. If we factor in all his post-Crisis history, it's hard to imagine Bruce being any worse than he turned out without Alfred raising him. Phillip may be a minor, non-entity of a character but he clearly had it more on the ball than Pennyworth in the child rearing department.

[John Venus]

It seems to me the solution is to make Bruce less of a jerk ass. It's a lot easier now given DC's wonky timeline.

Otherwise, changing his guardian from Alfred to Phillips when the former is so well entrenched as being his surrogate parent, just shifts the blame from Alfred to Phillip.

[Spencermalley935]

I remember the Silver St. Cloud one. That is hilariously benign compared to his later antics. He's just yelling at a portrait in frustration and feels bad instantly, everyone does stuff like that in their life. Blowing up at Dick couldn't have been that bad because nobody cites it as an example of abuse compared to the post Crisis iteration punching Dick in the face after the death of Jason, or the antics that lead to OMACs and the deaths of countless Amazons and War Games. I have admittedly not read Outsiders and don't really have any desire to if it laid some of the seeds for his later incarnations.

Alfred's devotion is less problematic in the older comics. When he keeps coming back after **** like War Games, Murder/Fugitive or Infinite Crisis, it's a whole different story. Also a different context because he's been raising Bruce since he was a kid, so it comes across as a warped co-dependency that he was in position to prevent but didn't. And this example of pre-Crisis devotion kind of proves the retcon of Alfred raising him wasn't entirely necessary because the closeness was already there. And was much healthier.

I don't think those examples (except War Games) are really all that bad, Bruce was still in mourning after Jason's death and Dick unintentionally but nonetheless provoked him when he brought up the subject, and while he does shoulder a lot of the blame with Brother Eye, It was Maxwell Lord's doing that led to the creation of the OMACS and the deaths that followed. Bruce even owned up to his part in that debacle and it's the reason he took a year off fighting crime after Infinite Crisis. I think it's really unfair to lump what he did what he did in War Games with his entire post-Crisis characterization as if he was always like that. That arc was just a thorough mess from top to bottom for every character unfortunate enough to be entangled in it.

So Alfred's devotion is "problematic" because he keeps sticking by Bruce as he does questionable things? If that's the case what does it matter if he raised him or not? If Alfred is indeed responsible for Bruce becoming Batman because of his guidance, Isn't that a good thing? Grant Morrison himself subscribes to the idea that Bruce conquered his demons by channeling them into being Batman that he's a better person for putting on the cape and cowl, I mean Yes it's a slippery slope and in many cases he can go too far but ultimately I like to think his decision to become Batman was the right one. As for the question of whether Alfred raising him or not is "necessary", I'd argue that it makes more sense as to why they're so close as opposed to Alfred being just a guy who showed up on Bruce's door step to ask for a job.

And I have to reiterate what Tzigone also said. The dynamics changed and feel off, and I've yet to be convinced the change was for the better.

This isn't a contest of who's closer to who, Bruce's relationship to Dick is not changed by the fact that he has a butler. It didn't in Batman the Animated Series.

Then Alfred failed as a guardian if one attempt at intervention didn't work, because I doubt Thomas and martha would want their son to live a life as Batman. At least the modern Batman we're stuck with. If we factor in all his post-Crisis history, it's hard to imagine Bruce being any worse than he turned out without Alfred raising him. Phillip may be a minor, non-entity of a character but he clearly had it more on the ball than Pennyworth in the child rearing department.

By basically ignoring him and leaving him in the care of his housekeeper, That sends a pretty screwed-up message about child-rearing there.

[Frontier]

It seems to me the solution is to make Bruce less of a jerk ass. It's a lot easier now given DC's wonky timeline.

Otherwise, changing his guardian from Alfred to Phillips when the former is so well entrenched as being his surrogate parent, just shifts the blame from Alfred to Phillip.

Agreed. We want Batman to be less of a controlling, overbearing, over-compensating jerk, and that would pretty much resolve most peoples issues.

[batnbreakfast]

Agreed. We want Batman to be less of a controlling, overbearing, over-compensating jerk, and that would pretty much resolve most peoples issues.

Why does DC not give it to us?

I have read the Omac Project/Wargames once and really don't care for going back to it but why measure Batman against his worst stories and not the good ones? Maybe it happens to Spider-Man as well?

[Buried Alien]

For me, things begin going downhill late pre-COIE (the entire set up of Batman and the Outsiders - a team only answerable to Batman and the disrespect for the JLA, is so problematic to me). And Bruce started treating other heroes more poorly - quite visible in some early post-COIE works. And he was a very poor parent to Jason at times post-COIE. But there was still a some good, too, for a while. I've heard it said that some vestiges of pre-COIE Batman remained until the mid 1990s, and then just petered out, but I'm not sure if that's true.

The departure from the Justice League to form the Outsiders and the nearly simultaneous transition from Dick to Jason as Robin were where it began.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

Then again, maybe it all started way earlier than anyone thought:



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Astralabius]

It seems to me the solution is to make Bruce less of a jerk ass. It's a lot easier now given DC's wonky timeline.

Otherwise, changing his guardian from Alfred to Phillips when the former is so well entrenched as being his surrogate parent, just shifts the blame from Alfred to Phillip.

I would prefer it he stopped being such a huge jerk, but at least for me it would already by enough if DC stopped writing Bruce that way for shock value and headlines only to pull something out of their ass that attempts to makes Bruce look good again a few issues later.
Don't try to sell me Bruce was only "communicating in a special code" when he punched Tim in the face, just let Bruce say sorry and work on his anger management issues.

[Tzigone]

Then again, maybe it all started way earlier than anyone thought:

We all know that was an imaginary story. I haven't read it, I admit, but I've seen explanations of the meme.

The departure from the Justice League to form the Outsiders and the nearly simultaneous transition from Dick to Jason as Robin were where it began.

I do wonder if a lot of it is simply he surging popularity built on his be a badass, and badasses are uncompromising and often rude about it. And others often have to be wrong or accept his attitude or be inferior in morality or competence to justify his behavior to the audience, and so he keeps getting worse. Started with other heroes (like him being the only one willing to do the "right" thing and them wimps or failures) and we just got more. From doing whatever he thought was right to controlling all the elements around him for planning and strategy led to an uncompromising certainty and a willingness to manipulate even the allies around him. Focus, too, got more extreme. Toss in the event-heavy world and always upping the stakes, and he gets worse. But he's popular, so he gets away with it. Either by it being forgotten or it somehow being justified, no matter how bad. Mind you, lots gets forgotten now (so many really horrible things being done by heroes), because so much is done to be "shocking" with little thought to whether it's consistent with character or the long-term effects. It sells.

[Aahz]

Btw. Bruce didn't leave the Justice League to form the Outsiders. He left to rescue Lucius Fox.

And the only one recruited for the mission was IIRC Black Lightning, the rest of them just happens to be in Markovia.

[SiegePerilous02]

So Alfred's devotion is "problematic" because he keeps sticking by Bruce as he does questionable things? If that's the case what does it matter if he raised him or not? If Alfred is indeed responsible for Bruce becoming Batman because of his guidance, Isn't that a good thing? Grant Morrison himself subscribes to the idea that Bruce conquered his demons by channeling them into being Batman that he's a better person for putting on the cape and cowl, I mean Yes it's a slippery slope and in many cases he can go too far but ultimately I like to think his decision to become Batman was the right one. As for the question of whether Alfred raising him or not is "necessary", I'd argue that it makes more sense as to why they're so close as opposed to Alfred being just a guy who showed up on Bruce's door step to ask for a job

In an ideally written scenario, whether Alfred is the one raising Bruce or not, Bruce's decision to become Batman SHOULD be viewed as a good thing overall for himself and for Gotham and the world due to the good he does. However, when all the crap he pulls (up to and including hitting or manipulating his kids) it doesn't seem like it was. And this is a failure on DC's part because they shouldn't have allowed this to happen to one of their flagship characters, and it's not like he's the only hero with crap accumulating like this. But it did happen, its canon and we're stuck with it. And the modern continuity has Alfred raising him and enabling him through a lot of questionable actions, so it makes it look unhealthy. It didn't before in the old continuity because Bruce generally didn't act like this, and it wasn't part of their backstory.

It'd be a different story if we have a canon where Alfred raised Bruce and he didn't evolve/devole into a loathsome piece of crap. But that's not the example we have with the mainstream canon. And again they were close during pre-Crisis without Alfred raising him. It evidently wasn't a problem then, why should it ever be if they go back to that scenario?

This isn't a contest of who's closer to who, Bruce's relationship to Dick is not changed by the fact that he has a butler. It didn't in Batman the Animated Series.

BTAS is a different canon. For the mainstream comics, pre-COIE and post-COIE are supposedly the same canon with the same characters, but the histories are tweaked if not outright different. So saying the dynamics between Bruce, Dick and Alfred are the same as they always were doesn't really hold up, because they can't be the same if their histories are tweaked. And the importance of Dick/Robin in wider pop culture declined a bit during the changes of COIE with focus to Alfred shifting as his main ally, and this transitioning to other media (like the B89 film).

This is a problem with DC's COIE hangups and decisions in general.

By basically ignoring him and leaving him in the care of his housekeeper, That sends a pretty screwed-up message about child-rearing there.

Who cares? I'm not saying Phillip has to be an ideal guardian. if Bruce was left to his own devices and turned out ok, that's on him then. But we are expected to see Alfred as a competent and likeable character and a good influence on raising Bruce. But the combination of the retcon to their relationship with Bruce becoming colder and more unstable does not paint a good picture of Alfred's parenting skills.

If you don't care about Phillip, why do you care about his competence in raising a kid? Why do we overlook Alfred's crappy job if we're meant to view him as a good guardian? it's a bad look that the neglectful uncle produced a more stable individual than the reliable butler. pre-COIE Bruce may have evolved to a darker, more unstable individual but we'll never know since he was rebooted away.

[Jackalope89]

I would prefer it he stopped being such a huge jerk, but at least for me it would already by enough if DC stopped writing Bruce that way for shock value and headlines only to pull something out of their ass that attempts to makes Bruce look good again a few issues later.
Don't try to sell me Bruce was only "communicating in a special code" when he punched Tim in the face, just let Bruce say sorry and work on his anger management issues.

Can't forget dragging Jason to the place he died, triggering his PTSD from it (and issue #25 of Rebirth Red Hood).

In all honesty, DC needs (yes, NEEDS) to make Bruce apologize to those he's wronged and do what he can to make it up to them. Otherwise, what's the point?

[Astralabius]

Can't forget dragging Jason to the place he died, triggering his PTSD from it (and issue #25 of Rebirth Red Hood).

In all honesty, DC needs (yes, NEEDS) to make Bruce apologize to those he's wronged and do what he can to make it up to them. Otherwise, what's the point?

I'm a bit more forgiving when it comes to that story because Tomasi made it pretty clear that Bruce was an ass and in the wrong when he acted the way he did. Bruce admits that himself later on in the book.
Bruce's talk with Jason, Barbara and Tim in the batcave is probably the closest thing we got to Bruce apologizing for his ******* behaviour and promising to make amends in years.
Not like in Joker War when Bruce held a speech in front of the batfamily that said basically nothing and completely missed what fans had been angry about.
Sure, Tomasi could have made Bruce really apologize to Jason explicitly , but he neither excused what Bruce did nor did he try to turn it around so Bruce was in the right.

[williamtheday]

Then again, maybe it all started way earlier than anyone thought:



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

So that's where that meme comes from.

[phonogram12]

I'm a bit more forgiving when it comes to that story because Tomasi made it pretty clear that Bruce was an ass and in the wrong when he acted the way he did. Bruce admits that himself later on in the book.
Bruce's talk with Jason, Barbara and Tim in the batcave is probably the closest thing we got to Bruce apologizing for his ******* behaviour and promising to make amends in years.
Not like in Joker War when Bruce held a speech in front of the batfamily that said basically nothing and completely missed what fans had been angry about.
Sure, Tomasi could have made Bruce really apologize to Jason explicitly , but he neither excused what Bruce did nor did he try to turn it around so Bruce was in the right.

Ugh, god, Tynion just keeps giving me more and more reasons to dislike his work.