What's Your Headcanon For Why Batman Turned Into A Jerk In The '00s?

[Rise]

I think the point is that if Alfred raised Batman since childhood, how come he end up like this? You would think Alfred would have a better influence on him.

[Frontier]

This isn't true. The reason why Jason left Ma Gunn school was because he discovered the school was a scam and a criminal organization which he refused to walk on this path.

Ironically, Jason become worse after being taken by Batman which of course was never acknowledged.

That showed the spark of a hero that led Bruce to think he was worth making the second Robin.

I mean, I don't think his entire Robin career indicates it was "worse" even if his methods became harsher as Batman's world did. He was a hero who saved people.

As I have said many times in this thread, I think the loss is from diminishing Dick's role, especially, as he is no longer the first of Bruce's fam and the closest to him. It also has very much to me resulted in a loss of Alfred having his own life, his own goals, etc (which we did see him have back in the old days, IMO). And even when it was off-panel we had the sense of him having a life. Of having had jobs, of having vacations, or hanging out at the bulter's club, or doing detecting work himself (not that I want to go back to comedy-relief Alfred). Bruce was part of his life, but not the whole of it. Everything, absolutely everything about him, is first devoted to Bruce. For over 40 years of his life. That's not good to me, and it's not healthy. It also to me makes his relationship with Dick (the others came later) a "because he's Bruce's kid" relationship rather than the independently-developed relationship it initially was. And frankly, heroic sorts are often willing to die for each other (which Alfred did noroiginally when he didn't raise Bruce, BTW), and asking them to kill often breaks mind control. Bonds of friendship and family can be built among adults.

I don't think the lack of a social life or doing stuff outside of Bruce is so much a result of the father-son dynamic but just how writers tend to write Superhero stories now where the Superhero side is 100% the focus of the stories.

Bruce was the first member of his family that he chose to bring in, and with Robin you truly see the beginning of the Batfamily.
[QUOTE]Absolutely true. He stole, certainly, but that was to get by. He even jumped in for a rescue before being taken in by Bruce.

The post-Crisis feel of Bruce taking in Jason really isn't good. First, he's calling him Robin instead of Jason, then later he flatly says he did it because he missed Dick, and it's really a great disservice to Jason.
I think it's reasonable that Batman missed having a partner and having Dick's presence around, but I think it's only problematic if Bruce is deliberately trying to mold Jason to be exactly like Dick (which I don't think is true unless you're Morrison and think he told Jason to dye his hair black).

I don't agree. I say if he'd never personally met Bruce, he wouldn't have gone that route at all. Though his dad would have died sooner.

He was inspired by Batman and Robin and what Robin meant well before he met Bruce. I think there's definitely a chance he would've gone the amateur vigilante route without meeting Dick.

I think the point is that if Alfred raised Batman since childhood, how come he end up like this? You would think Alfred would have a better influence on him.

His parents' death effected him that much?

[king81992]

I think the point is that if Alfred raised Batman since childhood, how come he end up like this? You would think Alfred would have a better influence on him.

I think that Alfred was a good influence on Bruce, but Bruce's own issues were too deep for one person to completely fix. Alfred was okay with Bruce being Batman at first, Bruce seemed to be more well adjusted at the start and he assumed that Bruce would eventually move on. What happened was that Bruce became less well adjusted as time progressed(due to his own issues and stuff that happened) and Alfred puts up with this out of loyalty.

[Rise]

Alfred let Batman walk a destructive path while just watching. If he was too much for him to handle, he could have simply get him help.

That showed the spark of a hero that led Bruce to think he was worth making the second Robin.

I mean, I don't think his entire Robin career indicates it was "worse" even if his methods became harsher as Batman's world did. He was a hero who saved people.

It proves that not every poor person must be a killer in making and that Batman didn't save Jason as much as he doomed him. It was the joker who killed him, but it was Batman who made him a target.

[king81992]

Alfred let Batman walk a destructive path while just watching. If he was too much for him to handle, he could have simply get him help.



It proves that not every poor person must be a killer in making and that Batman didn't save Jason as much as he doomed him. It was the joker who killed him, but it was Batman who made him a target.

Considering what we've seen of Bruce, he would have rejected any help that Alfred offered. A lot of Batman's problems are because he refuses help, there are plenty of people, some of them within the Bat family, who would be willing to put down the Joker or take him out of commission permanently, but he won't let them.

[SiegePerilous02]

He also was a hard guy to deal with in JLI, and that was also pre-COIE. But there, it was mostly for a comedy effect, I think.

JLI was post-COIE, not pre.

Alfred does make sense, he knows Bruce went off the rails long ago and disapproves of what he's become, but hopes that Bruce can become a better person and have a life someday. There's also some low key self loathing going on with Alfred, he blames himself for not doing enough to keep Bruce from becoming a jerk.

This is why ramping up the angst in characters to cater to "adult" story telling can often be stupid and boring. Who actually wants to read about an Alfred that has feelings of self loathing for what Bruce has become? Why do people want to read about Bruce being an abusive jerk? The mainstream superheroes at least were designed to be entertaining and appeal to a broad audience. There is nothing remotely likeable or entertaining about Batman anymore, but somehow it's working? At least among the increasingly niche Wednesday Warriors?

We're long overdue for things to swing back into the other direction. We need a smiling, campy Batman again who competes in the Space Olympics on Pluto with Robin. Let the fanboys bitch.

[Alan2099]

Considering what we've seen of Bruce, he would have rejected any help that Alfred offered.

Bruce was a little kid back then. There's only so much rejecting he's able to do.

[SiegePerilous02]

Bruce was a little kid back then. There's only so much rejecting he's able to do.

Yep. Alfred should have either tried harder (not hard to do, this is literally a child we're talking about) or washed his hands of it long ago.

[The Kid]

A lot of this just tells me that the Batfamily really is a burden on Batman since a lot of times he's a big asshole to the kids for their development's sake. The movies were very smart to basically discard them when they adapt it to the screen. Even the 'Watsonian' perspective Dick brings was easily replaced by Alfred. Let's not forget that Robin was added a year into Batman because they wanted it to be friendly to kids. The first 11-12 issues of Detective Comics is Batman at his truest essence IMO, a real creature of the night. Modern interpretations that capture that and toss out Robin and co. is perfectly fine with me for adaptations

To answer the question to OP, I view it as a culmination of the events that happened to him. Jason dying, Barbara being crippled, all of No Man's Land.. it basically ends in him becoming a controlling asshole which tbh makes sense to me. I don't really have a problem with his character going in that direction

[Zaresh]

You're right @SiegePerilous02. For some reason, I had it being released in 1985. Which now that I think about, doesn't make any sense. Wally, Marvel and Beetle were around. Heck, the whole premise was pretty much a consecuence of COIE. I'm an idiot sometimes.

[SiegePerilous02]

You're right @SiegePerilous02. For some reason, I had it being released in 1985. Which now that I think about, doesn't make any sense. Wally, Marvel and Beetle were around. Heck, the whole premise was pretty much a consecuence of COIE. I'm an idiot sometimes.

You're not an idiot, DC continuity really is just that much of a mess most of the time

[Tzigone]

A lot of this just tells me that the Batfamily really is a burden on Batman since a lot of times he's a big asshole to the kids for their development's sake.

No, him being an ass to them is the symptom, not the cause - he started with being that horrible to the other JL members several years before he did the same to the kids.

[king81992]

JLI was post-COIE, not pre.



This is why ramping up the angst in characters to cater to "adult" story telling can often be stupid and boring. Who actually wants to read about an Alfred that has feelings of self loathing for what Bruce has become? Why do people want to read about Bruce being an abusive jerk? The mainstream superheroes at least were designed to be entertaining and appeal to a broad audience. There is nothing remotely likeable or entertaining about Batman anymore, but somehow it's working? At least among the increasingly niche Wednesday Warriors?

We're long overdue for things to swing back into the other direction. We need a smiling, campy Batman again who competes in the Space Olympics on Pluto with Robin. Let the fanboys bitch.

Amen, broken hero Batman is ineffective and a terrible character. The dark and edgy= mature and good crowd are part of the problem facing the industry.

[king81992]

A lot of this just tells me that the Batfamily really is a burden on Batman since a lot of times he's a big asshole to the kids for their development's sake. The movies were very smart to basically discard them when they adapt it to the screen. Even the 'Watsonian' perspective Dick brings was easily replaced by Alfred. Let's not forget that Robin was added a year into Batman because they wanted it to be friendly to kids. The first 11-12 issues of Detective Comics is Batman at his truest essence IMO, a real creature of the night. Modern interpretations that capture that and toss out Robin and co. is perfectly fine with me for adaptations

To answer the question to OP, I view it as a culmination of the events that happened to him. Jason dying, Barbara being crippled, all of No Man's Land.. it basically ends in him becoming a controlling asshole which tbh makes sense to me. I don't really have a problem with his character going in that direction

At this point, Batman is a burden on the Bat family and his allies outside of the Bat fam. He treats everyone like crap and it has nothing to do with developing them, if they actually developed, they would cut him out of their lives permanently.

[Spencermalley935]

We're long overdue for things to swing back into the other direction. We need a smiling, campy Batman again who competes in the Space Olympics on Pluto with Robin. Let the fanboys bitch.

I really don't think we need to go that far. There's a time and a place for camp but generally, I like my Batman to be serious.