Voting on new X-Men team begins tomorrow

[Big Joe]

I think there's a couple of reason she adds diversity because she's black, she's an African American so she could be used to represent that viewpoint better than say Storm who is from Kenya/Egypt, she's a lesbian or bisexual, she has a very interesting powerset and her backstory was that her father was trying to isolate the mutant gene in utero, presumably so they could abort mutant fetuses so her reasons for signing up with the MLF were genuine as opposed to the others just wanting to kill people. She basically got in over her head.

Quite right. And it shouldn't be up to fans to point the way to diversity in the comics, if fans could rely on Marvel to come up with a properly diverse group of heroes then it wouldn't come to this. I'd have been happy enough with Tempo on the team just to find out more about her. I remember her, back in the day, but have never gone back through and reread any of her appearances. For me she's the least known of the heroes on the list, so I'd have been interested to see what direction she'd have gone in.

[jmc247]

I think the brain washing thing with Polaris is a big annoyance for her fanbase because it's happened soooooooooo many times over the years. I am waiting for the trade but from what I heard some fans are annoyed that she was upset about Rockslide's death which I find a bit bizarre. I always thought Lorna would have survivors guilt after Genosha, this was before she even found out what happened to mother. Being one of a handful of people to survive a genocide of 16 million people would really take a toll. She's also lead X-Factor when Tier died, was protecting Lilandra when she died. Rockslide dying on her watch, a teenager, personally I think it's perfectly human that this would haunt her. But that's just my opinion. I don't want a stoic Polaris "the master of magnetism with teats". I actually like that her reactions to horrific events are just a bit more realistic. She actually gets traumatized as she should be. It makes it more of a journey if she gets past trauma. Having a big reaction to Rockslide's death even fits with older characterization from Chuck Austen's run when she debated Xavier after Xorneto's death and she listed off the X-Men students who died (Synch, Skin etc). Their death's really bothered her because they were young and she had no relationship with them and they weren't on her watch. Maybe I will change my mind when I read it myself.

My response to Lorna's breakdown in X-Factor #4 was I did think Leah was trying to utilize broad themes from UXM #443 (which had Lorna decrying the injustice to mutants and the murder of Synch and Skin with the death of millions of mutants under her protection as a backdrop). The core concept of Lorna being extremely angry about the murder of mutants and it being personal for her going back to her Genosha trauma is a strong idea in principle.

In practice I felt it didn't work in X-Factor #4 for two reasons: Rockslide died in an ambush, but as part of an expeditionary mission for his state. Mutants on missions for Krakoa are much closer to soldiers on deployment for their country rather then civilians just going about their day. Lorna should never ever have that extreme a reaction to the death of a teammate on a mission.

The second issue was the comic was badly in need of a call back for her past trauma because without it she felt very much like a 16 year old experiencing death not a grizzled veteran who has seen oceans of death and whose past PTSD was just activated. My take was the overall idea was sound, but the set up was not. It would have been far better to wait for some mission where innocent mutants are found slaughtered and they can't resurrect them for some reason. That set up with a callback to Lorna's past trauma would have been a big winner depending as always on the execution.

[Confuzzled]

https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/13...874294274?s=20

It's pretty cool that Tempo was polling ahead of characters like Cannonball and Strong Guy who have received way more exposure than her and running neck in neck with Boom Boom (a character who had a really strong showcase on X-Men: Evolution). Even if Tempo isn't winning, the poll results definitely show there is interest in her.

[MentalManipulator]

who won in the end?

I was so sad Tempo was very low on votes, that I stopped following it. I mean, even boom Boom (ugh!) placed higher then her.

[Big Joe]

who won in the end?

I was so sad Tempo was very low on votes, that I stopped following it. I mean, even boom Boom (ugh!) placed higher then her.

Looks like Polaris, but no announcement yet. I guess we're going to have to wait three months or so.

[salarta]

I was busy with other things for the past couple days and needed to focus elsewhere, but here now and checking the thread.

Polaris's appearances in X-Factor, whether you like them or not, are far more substantial than anything Tempo has gotten, ever. I know you are passionate about Lorna, and honestly X-Factor has been wonky from my perspective too, but she's been doing more than most in this Hickman Era. That's why I say Tempo would have benefited more.

Agreed on Tempo not getting much vs Lorna, and needing and deserving more in those broad terms. Where I disagree is that Tempo's needs can be resolved by use on any book, whereas Lorna's needs due to past use can only be met by joining X-Men (or something specific to her but highly unlikely, e.g. a Polaris solo or mini). Though being completely honest and objective, the team itself probably would benefit more from Tempo on it than Lorna.

Exploited? Wasn't the entire X of Swords issue about her?

It was about Rockslide, with Lorna written in a very OOC manner to make the stakes look higher and put more weight into his death. There was nothing of Lorna in that depiction except maybe the last few panels, and I mean every word of it when I say Lorna would have been better off if that issue never happened. It completely ignored all the experiences and development she had prior to that point, especially after the Genoshan genocide, to treat her like a caricature from the 80s.

Other than that she got the introspective monologue about Krakoa, built their base (which she'll still be living at regardless), and has otherwise been an active member of the team. I will admit homegirl getting brainwashed wasn't a good look.

I've mentioned this before, but the monologue was one of several instances of a "callback" written so incredibly vague that it's worthless. The only people able to pick up on it as a callback are hardcore Lorna fans or long-time comic readers. Casual readers could just as easily think it's some new little detail written just for X-Factor hinting at them having dated or something. Being simply a member of the team would be fine if she was doing other, more important things outside it - like being a member on X-Men - but if that's all she's doing, it's effectively a demotion. She was leader last time. Now, she's just a member of the team. Alternative power use is one of the few good things I can say about her usage on X-Factor so far, but it's not enough to overcome all the bad.

I just don't know why we're putting so much into Hickman writing Polaris when the MAIN criticism of his run has been that he doesn't do character work particularly well. Of course I hope it turns out great, but we really don't have enough information to go off of.

You could go all sorts of ways as you say, but I think the rewards and potential benefits greatly outweigh the risks, especially after the past 3 years. X-Men would finally give her a spotlight she's sorely needed in the comics. It'll let her be seen working with colleagues she hasn't done hardly anything with in decades, especially Jean. If she gets on the team due to winning a poll, I believe it will lead to more care and thought put into treatment of her - knowing fans have a stake in it - than if she was simply put on it. Those are all positives without even considering what stories may be told.

I think the brain washing thing with Polaris is a big annoyance for her fanbase because it's happened soooooooooo many times over the years. I am waiting for the trade but from what I heard some fans are annoyed that she was upset about Rockslide's death which I find a bit bizarre. I always thought Lorna would have survivors guilt after Genosha, this was before she even found out what happened to mother. Being one of a handful of people to survive a genocide of 16 million people would really take a toll. She's also lead X-Factor when Tier died, was protecting Lilandra when she died. Rockslide dying on her watch, a teenager, personally I think it's perfectly human that this would haunt her. But that's just my opinion. I don't want a stoic Polaris "the master of magnetism with teats". I actually like that her reactions to horrific events are just a bit more realistic. She actually gets traumatized as she should be. It makes it more of a journey if she gets past trauma. Having a big reaction to Rockslide's death even fits with older characterization from Chuck Austen's run when she debated Xavier after Xorneto's death and she listed off the X-Men students who died (Synch, Skin etc). Their death's really bothered her because they were young and she had no relationship with them and they weren't on her watch. Maybe I will change my mind when I read it myself.

Yet in the Austen depiction you cite, she doesn't run around in a complete emotional breakdown, no clue what to do with herself, completely inconsolable, blaming herself for something that wasn't her fault at all and wishing she could just stop existing. Lorna in the Austen depiction you cite was angry. She wanted action, she wanted justice, and she didn't act like their deaths were her fault. The writing of Lorna in the X of Swords event completely ignored ALL of that. Ignored any semblance of past development and precedent.

And as I've said many times before, the fact she apparently can't give a damn about Genosha and its millions dead who she failed to save, 15 years later, makes this far far worse. Red Skull's using Genosha's dead for his evil schemes in Axis but Lorna's screwing around with the president. Jean's fighting Cassandra Nova on Genosha's ruins and Lorna's doing whatever the hell she was doing at the time. Lorna hasn't so much as said the word Genosha in all this time let alone thought about or been affected by the trauma from it. But then all of a sudden, after deaths in space and deaths with the old X-Factor team where the worst she got was getting drunk to deal with it, THIS moment has her weeping into rocks? This moment. This one. She didn't do it over what Red Skull was doing to the dead she couldn't save, but she could do it over a mutant she doesn't know dying nearby.

She had a journey already. Marvel pretends it didn't happen, but it did. If they want to do more with that journey, they have to acknowledge what already happened and work from there. If they refuse to do that, then they're not writing Lorna. They're writing some other random character they pretend is her.

Yes, I do feel very strongly about this. Marvel treats what happened to her before like it never happened and it doesn't matter, and I'm sick of it. They may as well act like Magneto never survived the Holocaust too while they're at it.

[MentalManipulator]

Looks like Polaris, but no announcement yet. I guess we're going to have to wait three months or so.

ok. cheers... waiting it is then.

[blanchett]

My response to Lorna's breakdown in X-Factor #4 was I did think Leah was trying to utilize broad themes from UXM #443 (which had Lorna decrying the injustice to mutants and the murder of Synch and Skin with the death of millions of mutants under her protection as a backdrop). The core concept of Lorna being extremely angry about the murder of mutants and it being personal for her going back to her Genosha trauma is a strong idea in principle.

In practice I felt it didn't work in X-Factor #4 for two reasons: Rockslide died in an ambush, but as part of an expeditionary mission for his state. Mutants on missions for Krakoa are much closer to soldiers on deployment for their country rather then civilians just going about their day. Lorna should never ever have that extreme a reaction to the death of a teammate on a mission.

The second issue was the comic was badly in need of a call back for her past trauma because without it she felt very much like a 16 year old experiencing death not a grizzled veteran who has seen oceans of death and whose past PTSD was just activated. My take was the overall idea was sound, but the set up was not. It would have been far better to wait for some mission where innocent mutants are found slaughtered and they can't resurrect them for some reason. That set up with a callback to Lorna's past trauma would have been a big winner depending as always on the execution.

Rockslide is still a minor though unless he's been aged up. I just think his death would hit her. Realistically he probably shouldn't have been there to be begin with. I haven't read it yet myself as I am waiting on the trade so I could eat my words but conceptually I don't have an issue with his death impacting her so deeply because of his age.

Yet in the Austen depiction you cite, she doesn't run around in a complete emotional breakdown, no clue what to do with herself, completely inconsolable, blaming herself for something that wasn't her fault at all and wishing she could just stop existing. Lorna in the Austen depiction you cite was angry. She wanted action, she wanted justice, and she didn't act like their deaths were her fault. The writing of Lorna in the X of Swords event completely ignored ALL of that. Ignored any semblance of past development and precedent.

....I mean she attacked everyone present, threatened to kill Xavier, was in tears, sculpted a statue of her dead father, her mentor and Jean from the Genoshan ruins. She might have been trying to prove a point with Xavier but she was not stable. She even flew off upset and Wanda and Pietro went after her. Milligan even leaned into her instability in Golgotha. I think they have basically confirmed she has bipolar at this stage so she does experience high and lows.

And as I've said many times before, the fact she apparently can't give a damn about Genosha and its millions dead who she failed to save, 15 years later, makes this far far worse. Red Skull's using Genosha's dead for his evil schemes in Axis but Lorna's screwing around with the president.

She prevented a nuclear war which would have resulted in far more dead than what happened in Genosha. It took precedent.

But then all of a sudden, after deaths in space and deaths with the old X-Factor team where the worst she got was getting drunk to deal with it, THIS moment has her weeping into rocks? This moment. This one. She didn't do it over what Red Skull was doing to the dead she couldn't save, but she could do it over a mutant she doesn't know dying nearby.

She goaded police officers into opening fire on her and forced a confrontation. She was in the midst of a breakdown and was suicidal and talking about how she killed her mother. She was being self destructive.

It'll let her be seen working with colleagues she hasn't done hardly anything with in decades, especially Jean. If she gets on the team due to winning a poll, I believe it will lead to more care and thought put into treatment of her - knowing fans have a stake in it - than if she was simply put on it. Those are all positives without even considering what stories may be told.

then they're not writing Lorna. They're writing some other random character they pretend is her.

I think your going to be disappointed in so far as I don't think Hickman will focus on Lorna's relationship with Jean. I think he will focus on her relationship with Scott because there is more there. They are both the prospective heirs of their "fathers" dreams, they were borderline in-laws due to Lorna's longstanding relationship with Havok, they probably spent holidays together while Jean was dead, Hickman's already written them together pre-poll and Scott and Lorna were a key relationship during the twelve which Hickman has clearly read and been inspired by were Scott had a "big brother" ish dynamic with Lorna. She's barely spoken to Jean since the early 80s by contrast. I think she would have a closer relationship with Rachel or Rahne over Jean.

I just don't think you will ever get 100% what you want with Lorna. Other people will always have different feelings on what they want for the character. Even going by the Polaris thread the posters over there don't agree on what they want her in terms of costume, romance, family dynamics etc. Everyone has a different perspective.

[Killerbee911]

I just don't think you will ever get 100% what you want with Lorna. Other people will always have different feelings on what they want for the character. Even going by the Polaris thread the posters over there don't agree on what they want her in terms of costume, romance, family dynamics etc. Everyone has a different perspective.

I just want thank for having reasonable perspective I have seen the Marvel hates "Polaris" thing only for her to show up in spot in duty in Hox/Pox and dawn of X, Then get on a book in Xfactor, Now join the biggest book(I will be shocked if she didn't maintain the highest vote total) . I think is fair at this point to acknowledge that character isn't being mistreated and you aren't always to get what you want as a fan. It is just nice to see a balance view on the topic.

[blanchett]

I just want thank for having reasonable perspective I have seen the Marvel hates "Polaris" thing only for her to show up in spot in duty in Hox/Pox and dawn of X, Then get on a book in Xfactor, Now join the biggest book(I will be shocked if she didn't maintain the highest vote total) . I think is fair at this point to acknowledge that character isn't being mistreated and you aren't always to get what you want as a fan. It is just nice to see a balance view on the topic.

I think she has it in the bag. I mean with her lead unless people outright cheated. I just can't see people bothering for the characters close enough to make a difference.

Mistreated is a strong word. I think several creators working in the business are clearly are fans. Hickman, PAD, Kris Anka, Cullen Bunn, Leah Williams, David Yardin, Olivier Coipel and I am sure others.

She has been in story after story about mind control since her introduction which is were I think her mistreatment primarily comes from, her most consistent arc is despite her power she has a loss of agency which I think resonates with a lot people. It is enough at this stage. I did roll my eyes when I found out Williams did a hypnosis story with Polaris. I mean really, another one. She is also a character that is sometimes left out of stories that make sense her to be involved. Her role in House of M for example was bizarrely small. With her powerset and her connections and unique character design from Steranko it does seem stranger that her profile is always so small compared to other characters who have been around for the same period of time.

I think in the past not enough creators have been invested but I am optimistic that will change. If she does win, getting a place in the core team in a critically acclaimed run in which she makes sense in organically is in her favour.

I feel like Polaris' fan have a lot in common with Rachel Summers fans in so far as she was basically absent from stories involving the Phoenix just to make it new reader friendly which results in old reader confused.

[Big Joe]

With her powerset and her connections and unique character design from Steranko it does seem stranger that her profile is always so small compared to other characters who have been around for the same period of time.

Like, for example, Banshee who's been around longer, or maybe Sunfire just not quite as long. Fans of those two (and I'm one) must be pretty bemused by complaints from fans of a character who is consistently and regularly in books.

I'm also a fan of English football. This is like a fan of Manchester United complaining, to a fan of Carlisle United (me), that Manchester United isn't televised often enough.

[blanchett]

Like, for example, Banshee who's been around longer, or maybe Sunfire just not quite as long. Fans of those two (and I'm one) must be pretty bemused by complaints from fans of a character who is consistently and regularly in books.

I'm also a fan of English football. This is like a fan of Manchester United complaining, to a fan of Carlisle United (me), that Manchester United isn't televised often enough.

Well Man UTD and Carlisle United are not really on the same level so I guess I agree.

As for Sunfire and Banshee neither has aged well. Banshee irks me as a Irish person. Literal alcoholic who hangs around with leprechauns in a run down castle and speaks like a character from the Quiet Man.

[mogwen]

He was great in Generation X. He needs to be actualised, of course but that's the case of many characters that were created long ago and didn't have proper support. For me Banshee and Sunfire are exemples of the international X-Men, that makes it look less as American heroes save the world once again.
Andwhile I love Lorna very much she's still another american heroe in a mostly american team.

[Big Joe]

Well Man UTD and Carlisle United are not really on the same level so I guess I agree.

As for Sunfire and Banshee neither has aged well. Banshee irks me as a Irish person. Literal alcoholic who hangs around with leprechauns in a run down castle and speaks like a character from the Quiet Man.

That's absolutely, precisely, my point. If any character in the entire history of X-Men comics has been mistreated it's Banshee. He's been written properly a few times, but mostly he's just been written as a thoroughly offensive caricature of an Irish person.

[blanchett]

He was great in Generation X. He needs to be actualised, of course but that's the case of many characters that were created long ago and didn't have proper support. For me Banshee and Sunfire are exemples of the international X-Men, that makes it look less as American heroes save the world once again.
Andwhile I love Lorna very much she's still another american heroe in a mostly american team.

That's absolutely, precisely, my point. If any character in the entire history of X-Men comics has been mistreated it's Banshee. He's been written properly a few times, but mostly he's just been written as a thoroughly offensive caricature of an Irish person.

I think these are fair points.

We still don't know the rest of the team so maybe it will have more international characters in the line up.

I think Banshee was at his best in Generation X. Since he's so much older than the other characters having him in a mentor position made a bit more sense.

But yeah he has been mistreated for me I am not sure how redeemable he is.