Voting on new X-Men team begins tomorrow

[Big Joe]

I think these are fair points.

We still don't know the rest of the team so maybe it will have more international characters in the line up.

I think Banshee was at his best in Generation X. Since he's so much older than the other characters having him in a mentor position made a bit more sense.

But yeah he has been mistreated for me I am not sure how redeemable he is.

Of course he's redeemable, maybe the writer could concentrate on some of the impressive things about him. Teacher, mentor, school administrator, detective, leader. He's put teams together to keep the X-Men going at some of their worst times. They're probably going to have to do something about his power level as well, whereas previously, back in the late 70s he was the only X-Man who worried Magneto he's now at the level where just about anyone can take him on without even breaking sweat. He's supposed to be able to level mountains, liquefy anything in his way, now he seems to be just about able to make someone need to turn their radio up a bit.

[mogwen]

I think these are fair points.

We still don't know the rest of the team so maybe it will have more international characters in the line up.

I think Banshee was at his best in Generation X. Since he's so much older than the other characters having him in a mentor position made a bit more sense.

But yeah he has been mistreated for me I am not sure how redeemable he is.

Don't worry, no character is unredeemable, even Wanda, all it takes is a dedicated, imaginative writer.

[jmc247]

Rockslide is still a minor though unless he's been aged up. I just think his death would hit her. Realistically he probably shouldn't have been there to be begin with. I haven't read it yet myself as I am waiting on the trade so I could eat my words but conceptually I don't have an issue with his death impacting her so deeply because of his age.

The concept was fine, the execution was not. Her shedding some tears for a lost teammate on a mission is fine. But, much more then that over what happened needed to rely on activating older trauma for her and it might have, but if it was meant to have done so the audience needed to be clued in.

When you read it you might agree with me or might not agree with me, but its hard to have a discussion on the topic when one can only judge the concept [which was reasonable]. In terms of X-Factor #4 there was a page at the very end I felt was solid for Lorna and in keeping with the character. That is the most positive I can say about the story though the art deserved praise.

In terms of this brainwashing Lorna story I was negative about the concept as you seem to be. But, the execution I found to be less damaging then most brainwashing stories for her. The hypnosis arc wasn't good nor was it terrible it was just kind of there. The negative is probably in it furthering the narrative to Lorna as weak-willed and easy to puppet.

She has been in story after story about mind control since her introduction which is were I think her mistreatment primarily comes from, her most consistent arc is despite her power she has a loss of agency which I think resonates with a lot people. It is enough at this stage. I did roll my eyes when I found out Williams did a hypnosis story with Polaris. I mean really, another one. She is also a character that is sometimes left out of stories that make sense her to be involved. Her role in House of M for example was bizarrely small. With her powerset and her connections and unique character design from Steranko it does seem stranger that her profile is always so small compared to other characters who have been around for the same period of time.

The Avengers side of the franchise including Bendis were in the drivers seat for crafting the House of M main story. In terms of Lorna it felt like Bendis built the story around Wanda, Pietro, and Magneto and then the x-side stepped in after the initial planning and reminded them they had to fit in Lorna somewhere. It would have helped greatly to tie Lorna to the rest of her family for the decade of stories that came out of it if Lorna had been on Genosha as well in issue #1 and had any role even a page or two of disagreeing with Pietro and then being incapacitated by him or Wanda.

[blanchett]

The concept was fine, the execution was not. Her shedding some tears for a lost teammate on a mission is fine. But, much more then that over what happened needed to rely on activating older trauma for her and it might have, but if it was meant to have done so the audience needed to be clued in.

When you read it you might agree with me or might not agree with me, but its hard to have a discussion on the topic when one can only judge the concept [which was reasonable]. In terms of X-Factor #4 there was a page at the very end I felt was solid for Lorna and in keeping with the character. That is the most positive I can say about the story though the art deserved praise.

In terms of this brainwashing Lorna story I was negative about the concept as you seem to be. But, the execution I found to be less damaging then most brainwashing stories for her. The hypnosis arc wasn't good nor was it terrible it was just kind of there. The negative is probably in it furthering the narrative to Lorna as weak-willed and easy to puppet.

I have seen some panels. Emma seemed very in character but Magneto seemed very off. I was unsure about Lorna herself. I didn't see enough.

The Avengers side of the franchise including Bendis were in the drivers seat for crafting the House of M main story. In terms of Lorna it felt like Bendis built the story around Wanda, Pietro, and Magneto and then the x-side stepped in after the initial planning and reminded them they had to fit in Lorna somewhere. It would have helped greatly to tie Lorna to the rest of her family for the decade of stories that came out of it if Lorna had been on Genosha as well in issue #1 and had any role even a page or two of disagreeing with Pietro and then being incapacitated by him or Wanda.

I always felt the opposite for some reason. I thought Bendis wanted her included but Brevoort didn't as he didn't like the relationship. it was a waste of two great designs by Coipel.

[MYCMTSC]

It's pretty cool that Tempo was polling ahead of characters like Cannonball and Strong Guy who have received way more exposure than her and running neck in neck with Boom Boom (a character who had a really strong showcase on X-Men: Evolution). Even if Tempo isn't winning, the poll results definitely show there is interest in her.

I think that's why I'd really be disappointed if Polaris won. She's gotten so much exposure compared to the majority, if not all, of the other options. A Tempo win just sounds more exciting and the bulk of fans will always choose the safest choice.

I'll be disappointed, but I will be happy for her fans.

[jmc247]

I have seen some panels. Emma seemed very in character but Magneto seemed very off. I was unsure about Lorna herself. I didn't see enough.


I always felt the opposite for some reason. I thought Bendis wanted her included but Brevoort didn't as he didn't like the relationship. it was a waste of two great designs by Coipel.

Brevoort was hostile to Lorna's family relations, but House of M was before he became Senior Vice President of Publishing and was handed virtually full editorial control of crossovers. By the time Avengers vs X-Men came around he was fully in the drivers seat for big crossovers which may be why it completely ignored her parentage when she was on the same panels with Wanda in that crossover. The AvX audio book version ironically didn't ignore it.

In terms of Bendis he did get a lot of love from Polaris fans for including her, but he never wrote her again or really commented on her in any interview I have seen. I know he likes Magneto, my suspicion was he is mildly likes Lorna, but not to the extent he put much though into her. Until someone asks him at a con we will never know.

In terms of X-Factor #4 you are right Emma was very well written. Leah manages to balance her character very well. Magneto was something akin to his Ultimate Universe version and Lorna I already discussed.

[Angleman70]

I think that's why I'd really be disappointed if Polaris won. She's gotten so much exposure compared to the majority, if not all, of the other options. A Tempo win just sounds more exciting and the bulk of fans will always choose the safest choice.

I'll be disappointed, but I will be happy for her fans.

I disagree. While I do understand where you are coming from, Polaris has seniority and is the 2nd female to join the X-men. Having said that, Lorna has been mistreated and underdeveloped for most of her history. Havok has more exposure and more respect than Lorna has. To me Polaris should win and if she doesn’t, I’m leaving the X-universe for good.

[bearman]

Banshee has been worked over pretty good by writers and editors in recent years. I have been agitating for some redemption for him for years...start with his general Generation X character, add in details of his spy background, Irish Lord, electronics expert, piano player... and while the Leprechauns were a bit much, a mystical connection would tie into his code name. But get the man a new costume.

[Big Joe]

Banshee has been worked over pretty good by writers and editors in recent years. I have been agitating for some redemption for him for years...start with his general Generation X character, add in details of his spy background, Irish Lord, electronics expert, piano player... and while the Leprechauns were a bit much, a mystical connection would tie into his code name. But get the man a new costume.

I agree, it's always looked as if it was waiting for someone to go down the Irish mythology route with him. His wife was even called Maeve! I've often imagined her returning somehow and he, himself, somehow being tied to Cuchulainn. They started that step by making his daughter the Morrigan, then missed any chance of expanding on it by strangely leaving him out (except for one panel) of the current X-Factor story.

A new costume would be good, but he looked impressive in early Generation-x.

[Killerbee911]

So my bad Banshee take ,I don't think he is bad character but they got rid of him and they should have probably left him dead, In terms of diversity he is another white character franchise that probably has enough prominent white characters. And well there is his daughter around with exact same powers to take his place and even his name. Which makes more sense on her than him with a Banshee being a female spirit. Now the damage control part I like character since Gen-X and his death was bad so it is better that was undone. But in franchise that has so many characters it wouldn't have been the worse thing if he had died an heroic death and his daughter took over his mantle in his honor.

Yes Banshee has been done dirty but he is on a list of character for me who kinda have had their time in the Sun and the line can move on from them plus X-line doesn't seem to know what to do with them. Banshee has been back for awhile now hasn't done anything meaningful Astonishing X-men, Uncanny X-men, etc and nothing. I mean since he is back and not a Zombie Banshee anymore yeah use him in the books but with limited space in line and not every character being able to do something he is one of the character I view that is cuttable in picture but luckily I don't make the decisions.

[salarta]

Rockslide is still a minor though unless he's been aged up. I just think his death would hit her. Realistically he probably shouldn't have been there to be begin with. I haven't read it yet myself as I am waiting on the trade so I could eat my words but conceptually I don't have an issue with his death impacting her so deeply because of his age.

....I mean she attacked everyone present, threatened to kill Xavier, was in tears, sculpted a statue of her dead father, her mentor and Jean from the Genoshan ruins. She might have been trying to prove a point with Xavier but she was not stable. She even flew off upset and Wanda and Pietro went after her. Milligan even leaned into her instability in Golgotha. I think they have basically confirmed she has bipolar at this stage so she does experience high and lows.

Would his death hit her? Yes. Would it hit her the way it was presented, based on past development? No.

What you highlighted from that issue shows her behavior in X-Factor #4 is the opposite of what you would expect from her. At the very least, an explanation to make it mesh with past writing was needed, and not given. Would you expect to see Batman witness someone get shot and have a breakdown rather than take down the shooter without something to understand why this time of all times has him behaving so very different from all the other times he saw someone get shot?

She goaded police officers into opening fire on her and forced a confrontation. She was in the midst of a breakdown and was suicidal and talking about how she killed her mother. She was being self destructive.

Yes, but that self-destructive behavior can at least be seen as an extension of her behavior in Austen's run. Her threatening everyone could also be argued as somewhat self-destructive, goading people to attack her. But that's her particular expression. Anger and action to mask self-destructive tendencies. Even the depiction of Lorna losing her powers, though lacking anger (no doubt feeling powerless due to being powerless), still had her trying to solve it with action by putting her life at risk hoping it would fix everything. X-Factor #4 lacked that.

Good point in noting there was a deeper layer to it than just Lorna getting drunk, but X-Factor #4 still doesn't mesh with it.

I think your going to be disappointed in so far as I don't think Hickman will focus on Lorna's relationship with Jean. I think he will focus on her relationship with Scott because there is more there. They are both the prospective heirs of their "fathers" dreams, they were borderline in-laws due to Lorna's longstanding relationship with Havok, they probably spent holidays together while Jean was dead, Hickman's already written them together pre-poll and Scott and Lorna were a key relationship during the twelve which Hickman has clearly read and been inspired by were Scott had a "big brother" ish dynamic with Lorna. She's barely spoken to Jean since the early 80s by contrast. I think she would have a closer relationship with Rachel or Rahne over Jean.

I just don't think you will ever get 100% what you want with Lorna. Other people will always have different feelings on what they want for the character. Even going by the Polaris thread the posters over there don't agree on what they want her in terms of costume, romance, family dynamics etc. Everyone has a different perspective.

Of course I'm never going to get all of what I want with Lorna. I don't expect her to be tailored entirely and exclusively to me. If that was the case, I never would've bought and read All-New X-Factor. I wouldn't encourage people to read ANXF 1-2 and 7-20, because it doesn't acknowledge Genosha at all. But there can be enough of Lorna for me to speak generally positively, and read something and encourage others to do so too. Problem is, the last time Marvel did anything to bring that out of me was Secret Wars: House of M in 2015.

Of course Lorna fans have different feelings on what they want. But my experience thus far is a lot of fans are willing to settle for much less than they should. Willing to give a pass on treatment they shouldn't. And while different fans feel differently about different things, I think that approach hurts her. I think it holds her back from being what she can really be. Being overbearing can be overbearing, but it at least shows passion. And for a character like Lorna, with a history of Marvel underestimating her worth, I think appearing to be too passionate is better than being passive enough for Marvel to just shrug at her fandom and move on to other characters they think have fandoms that care more.

I can guarantee nobody would be aware today that Lorna was the second woman to join the X-Men if being passive was the answer. Nobody remembered it when I first learned of Lorna in 2009.

As for X-Men and Hickman and expectations? I'm far from thinking Lorna on there would be a perfect wonderland where all dreams come true. But it's better than where she is now, and it can lead to much better for her in the future, something X-Factor with Lorna as simply a team member can't give her a shot at even if it was a comic book masterpiece. Even if Lorna doesn't get to spend much time with Jean, she would at least be working with her as a peer, presumably standing near each other in panels from time to time, and that matters. The odds are very in her favor on X-Men. They're against her on X-Factor.

Mistreated is a strong word. I think several creators working in the business are clearly are fans. Hickman, PAD, Kris Anka, Cullen Bunn, Leah Williams, David Yardin, Olivier Coipel and I am sure others.

Using a character is not the same thing as being a fan of them. If I own a dog, I'm not going to be praised as a great owner if I abuse the dog even if I'm getting them featured in magazines. I'm sure some people are going to say that's an "extreme" comparison (which at this point I'm sure they'd say that about any comparison), so let me just say it's far tamer than other comparisons I could make.

I think mistreated is an appropriate word when the treatment in question is her being used as a prop for others' stories while ignoring her past development and what's good for her.

[Rang10]

So my bad Banshee take ,I don't think he is bad character but they got rid of him and they should have probably left him dead, In terms of diversity he is another white character franchise that probably has enough prominent white characters. And well there is his daughter around with exact same powers to take his place and even his name. Which makes more sense on her than him with a Banshee being a female spirit. Now the damage control part I like character since Gen-X and his death was bad so it is better that was undone. But in franchise that has so many characters it wouldn't have been the worse thing if he had died an heroic death and his daughter took over his mantle in his honor.

Yes Banshee has been done dirty but he is on a list of character for me who kinda have had their time in the Sun and the line can move on from them plus X-line doesn't seem to know what to do with them. Banshee has been back for awhile now hasn't done anything meaningful Astonishing X-men, Uncanny X-men, etc and nothing. I mean since he is back and not a Zombie Banshee anymore yeah use him in the books but with limited space in line and not every character being able to do something he is one of the character I view that is cuttable in picture but luckily I don't make the decisions.

Scott, Magneto, Xavier still there on the sun, I don't see why singled out Banshee

[Killerbee911]

Scott, Magneto, Xavier still there on the sun, I don't see why singled out Banshee

Not singling out he was just current topic in thread and example of older character who didn't have clear path/meaningful stories when he was alive and he wasn't a extremely popular character. Plus he died relatively recent and has been dead for awhile arguably the franchise move on from him. Banshee came up in this topic so expressed that opinion. I think it is a important sometimes to say that character stay dead or retired at times giving other characters a chance to move forward. I am perfectly fine with all characters you mention there not being around especially Xavier(Jean and Scott) and Magneto(Polaris) who have heirs that can take their place.

The franchise needs to a better job of rotating some of the B and C list x-characters out and find new A-list x-characters capable of carrying the franchise so the franchise can stay fresh.

[Ferro]

I don't care JDW voted tempo and they all saw the demand, she has bagged something thats for sure! I have never seen such an extreme increase of visibility, demand and fanart/ edits.
A zero to hero story

[Big Joe]

Not singling out he was just current topic in thread and example of older character who didn't have clear path/meaningful stories when he was alive and he wasn't a extremely popular character. Plus he died relatively recent and has been dead for awhile arguably the franchise move on from him. Banshee came up in this topic so expressed that opinion. I think it is a important sometimes to say that character stay dead or retired at times giving other characters a chance to move forward. I am perfectly fine with all characters you mention there not being around especially Xavier(Jean and Scott) and Magneto(Polaris) who have heirs that can take their place.

The franchise needs to a better job of rotating some of the B and C list x-characters out and find new A-list x-characters capable of carrying the franchise so the franchise can stay fresh.

I think the issue with completely doing away with characters who have been around that length of time is that they're popular still. You really only have to look at the results of the vote, it looks like two characters over 50 years old are going to be the top of the pile.

Whether anyone likes it or not, comics sell on the popularity of characters, artists and writers, and sales are what drives the story. X-Men is now a franchise that is almost 60 years old and for the first half of the existence of the franchise there were very few members of the team, or in fact mutants who were even seen.

From around 1990 though, the numbers have increased exponentially, so of course it's always difficult to get favourite characters on to teams, especially the flagship team. But there are characters who got the franchise through those more difficult first 30 years and probably they should be shown some respect.