Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Grinning Soul]

I found this earlier this week and fell in love with the image:



Art by Miguel Mercado, merkymerx ( https://www.deviantart.com/merkymerx...Jean-597145519 )

Description: "Was listening to "Summer of 69", and this image came to mind for some reason.

Based off of Tye Sheridan and Sophie Turner's outfits from X-Men: Apocalypse."

Here's the song (it makes the image come alive):

[lancer]

Yeah I was mostly joking as I know it’s alternate universe. But yeah then she was like I’ve always loved you beast,then he killed him off. Then my friends were joking she’d target Sabretooth next.

Yeah I really hated what Morrison did with Scott and Jean but otherwise enjoyed the run overall

Did she say she loved Beast in that series? I didn't remember that it went that far. So, you could still like Morrison's run overall? I thought you were a huge JOTT fan. Hey, to each his own, but when you get things as wrong as I thought he got them with my favorites, you are not overcoming that no matter how well you might do anything else.

He had moments that I liked with most of the characters, but, for me, that comes under the heading of the deck chairs on the Titanic were awfully nice. He introduced some different concepts that I don't think he really explored. I thought Claremont's XTREME XPOSE was a far greater examination of the ramifications of the mutant population than anything Morrison did. He just introduced the concept.

He got a lot of credit for the Magneto as Xorn disguise so called bread crumbs that he left a trail of. I disagreed because Xorn's powers were so ill defined. He had a star for a brain so when he generates magnetic fields, I don't look at that in retrospect and think how did I miss the clue?
After the fact, you can go back and lay out the clues. Still, as they came out, nothing seemed fishy with a guy with a star for a brain.

The one that did impress me was the Xavier/Nova switch. There are clues in lines of Nova. The garbled speech after she's shot is basically her saying she's Xavier. Now, I didn't catch it at the time, but other who had read it posted the theory when the issue came out. I was like, damn he fooled me. Next issue came out and the theory was correct. That I thought was excellent sleight of hand. However, NOTHING that could ever offset what he did to Scott and Jott. And, more importantly, how he did it.

[lancer]

I've never read X-Men Forever and it seems like I shouldn't.

I'm sorry that Morrison tarnished the character and the comics so much for you. I struggle to understand how Morrison could've missed something so central to the X-Men, and that if he insisted on splitting Jott, doing it in probably the worst way possible.

In fairness, this is a Jott appreciation thread. Posters here I would think would tend to dislike Morrison's run. However, and I was on several forums at the time, no question that the majority of posters liked his stuff. A clear majority. Not a landslide, a clear majority. 2/3, maybe 3/4. I'd guess at least 2/3. Some of the people who disliked it really disliked it. Still the clear minority, though. And numerous creators said they loved i. For example, Whedon said he brought him back to the books.

Personally, I think the only objective measure is sales. And Morrison lost a ton of readers after a huge start. At one point he was definitely under the sales that got Claremont booted from the main books. 150 went up, but numbered issues like that usually did. His final arc went way up. That was Silvistri drawing the X Men for the first time in years. I mainly attributed the rise to him.

I always kind of felt that he brought new readers because he was Morrison and drove off a bunch of longtime readers because he was too radical. All anecdotal, though. My conjecture, my theory. Nothing I have concrete evidence of. Still, at one point, over his first couple years, his sales dropped about 40,000. His first issues was in the high 130s, maybe 140, IIRC. Dropped under 100k at one point.

[lancer]

Morrison is a great writer when he does his own stuff, he has an unparalleled imagination to go a long with an insatiable knowledge of pop culture and the occult. When he writes big property characters his schtick is that of pure shock value. He did it with X-Men, then with Batman, etc etc. Its what all the British invasion writers of that time did though. It was their style and what got them hired.

Garth Ennis [rip], Warren Ellis, Grant Morrison, Mark Millar all thought Alan Moore was a cynic and none of them had his talent but they wanted to emulate him. Although Ennis was smart because he knew exactly what he did well and chose the proper character for it and in the process became the greatest Punisher writer of all time in my opinion. But Millar was the worst of the bunch and still is yet arguably the most economically successful which doesn't bode well for human taste, it means people love to watch and read trash. In Grant's case I don't think he cared about the X-Men per say but more about the enormity of the assignment. Like giving a 13 year old the keys to the company lamborghini and telling him to go wild. He wanted to take a chainsaw and just hack at them because that is what Joe Quesada also likes. At the same time I won't take away a lot of the good stuff Grant did for the X-Men. Like developing Emma and exploring the psychological profiles of his main characters. Even if some of them were character assassinated while the others were ignored.

Joe Quesada in turn has a hard on for making life difficult for his characters. He read something Stan Lee said once except these guys under the editorial direction of Quesada do it without context or story or buildup. They would have a retreat and then 3 months later the characterization of their superheroes would be thrown out the window. Just read the first issue of House of M and look at how stupid it sounds. The X-Men don't talk like that and would never meet with the Avengers like that. Same with Civil War. Same with decimation. The worst though was Schism. That was totally out of fucking left field, especially when if anything, the suddenly divergent philosophies held no water and Wolverine was coming out of an era where he was Cyclops biggest enabler and ally. Long gone are the days of Claremont where he would let a story sit for years until the payoff and not only that, he let it sit for years while writing chunks and chunks of dialogue. When you read his stories you read like 3 comics worth of dialogue these days. But that is all editorial. That said, a lot of what happened in new X-Men was undone. As I am sure a lot of what happens with Hickman will be undone and on and on and on.

I am not necessarily against change or even if for instance Jean cheated on Scott, what I am against is when it comes out of no continuity and the mental gymnastics certain fans pull to justify it which encourages hack lazy writers from developing a story. You end up not caring because its all shock value meant to sell one issue and not an entire comic book run. Which is why I hate the mediocre write on X-Force and Wolverine and his characterization of Jean as Wolverines girlfriend for the sake of not living out his fantasy without explaining it.

I had never read any of Morrison's DC work. Forget something like Animal Man, not his JLA. One of the first things I read was an interview with his take on the FF. I found it freudian and disturbing. This was a couple of years before his X Men, and he did wind up writing an FF limited series. I did have the interview in the back of my head when he started, but I didn't go in thinking that I'll hate this. I judged it as I read it.

[lancer]

Yeah. Just my opinion. It changes nothing about what is actually written.

Besides, like I said, I try judge the work for the work, not the interviews. I don't excuse/justify/explain book, song or screen writers using their interviews. I look at their work and that's it. I don't know why I should treat comic book writers differently.

I read interviews to try to understand what is behind the stories in terms of editorial issues. For instance, I think it was interesting to understand what Duggan said about "shared" characters. But, in the end of the day, I'm going to judge what he wrote, what is in the book.

No denying that ultimately what is canon is not interviews, it's what sees print. However, I thought Morrison had a lot of ambiguity, or scenes that could be interpreted different ways, in his run. This is where interviews can help. He's telling you how he sees Jott. A couple of these interviews has him saying pretty much what Scott said to Emma. I just think they give insight to his intention.

Myself, I wasn't tremendously concerned early on. Even the k Logan kiss issue because, as I said, I thought that was all about Scott. The Jean in that issue loves Scott the way she always has. It's why she's in such pain. I never, for a second, thought Scott slept with Emma in Hong Kong. The worries began when he started talking to Emma. When he called the entire marriage fake and going through the motions, I said, we got big problems here. And sure enough we did.

Thanks for posting those panels. Damn, I loved that series. Not just how they were as a couple either. Jean mentoring and training Nathan, Scott with a dying Rachel. THIS is how I saw the characters. I grew up reading books where I admired Scott, respected him. And that is how I felt about the guy in this series. All Lobdell, whose handling of these characters I saw knocked and I'd shake my head.

Bottom line, we all have our view of the characters and we sure as hell don't all see them the same way.

[Legaldrugdealer]

Did she say she loved Beast in that series? I didn't remember that it went that far. So, you could still like Morrison's run overall? I thought you were a huge JOTT fan. Hey, to each his own, but when you get things as wrong as I thought he got them with my favorites, you are not overcoming that no matter how well you might do anything else.

He had moments that I liked with most of the characters, but, for me, that comes under the heading of the deck chairs on the Titanic were awfully nice. He introduced some different concepts that I don't think he really explored. I thought Claremont's XTREME XPOSE was a far greater examination of the ramifications of the mutant population than anything Morrison did. He just introduced the concept.

He got a lot of credit for the Magneto as Xorn disguise so called bread crumbs that he left a trail of. I disagreed because Xorn's powers were so ill defined. He had a star for a brain so when he generates magnetic fields, I don't look at that in retrospect and think how did I miss the clue?
After the fact, you can go back and lay out the clues. Still, as they came out, nothing seemed fishy with a guy with a star for a brain.

The one that did impress me was the Xavier/Nova switch. There are clues in lines of Nova. The garbled speech after she's shot is basically her saying she's Xavier. Now, I didn't catch it at the time, but other who had read it posted the theory when the issue came out. I was like, damn he fooled me. Next issue came out and the theory was correct. That I thought was excellent sleight of hand. However, NOTHING that could ever offset what he did to Scott and Jott. And, more importantly, how he did it.

Trust me I mellowed with age. I look at Morrison’s run with different eyes now. I still hate Emma and it’s not really her fault per say but Morrison’s in my mind.
Also the damage is done. Scott and Jean will never be the couple I once loved short of a reboot. Look at the current comics where she’s knocking boots with Logan in x force. The characters do whatever the writers want. I take the approach that I’ll always have the happier times to go back to and read as they happened just like the bad times happened.

This is quoted from a bleeding cool article:
Cyclops and Jean Grey had a strained professional relationship after Jean was revealed to be secretly in love with Wolverine before his death, and then in love with Beast before his.
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/chri...aling-8-22-18/

[Legaldrugdealer]

Also since I’m feeling nostalgic feel the need to repost my favorite Scott and Jean commissions from over the years
You’ll notice I have an affinity for the 90s costumes lol

[Legaldrugdealer]

[Hizashi]

In fairness, this is a Jott appreciation thread. Posters here I would think would tend to dislike Morrison's run. However, and I was on several forums at the time, no question that the majority of posters liked his stuff. A clear majority. Not a landslide, a clear majority. 2/3, maybe 3/4. I'd guess at least 2/3. Some of the people who disliked it really disliked it. Still the clear minority, though. And numerous creators said they loved i. For example, Whedon said he brought him back to the books.

Personally, I think the only objective measure is sales. And Morrison lost a ton of readers after a huge start. At one point he was definitely under the sales that got Claremont booted from the main books. 150 went up, but numbered issues like that usually did. His final arc went way up. That was Silvistri drawing the X Men for the first time in years. I mainly attributed the rise to him.

I always kind of felt that he brought new readers because he was Morrison and drove off a bunch of longtime readers because he was too radical. All anecdotal, though. My conjecture, my theory. Nothing I have concrete evidence of. Still, at one point, over his first couple years, his sales dropped about 40,000. His first issues was in the high 130s, maybe 140, IIRC. Dropped under 100k at one point.

I had never read any of Morrison's DC work. Forget something like Animal Man, not his JLA. One of the first things I read was an interview with his take on the FF. I found it freudian and disturbing. This was a couple of years before his X Men, and he did wind up writing an FF limited series. I did have the interview in the back of my head when he started, but I didn't go in thinking that I'll hate this. I judged it as I read it.

For personal theory, it makes sense to me. I guess Morrison just didn't get Marvel the way he did DC - and he's always been the type to push the envelope, for better or worse. I flipped through his FF and thought I wouldn't enjoy it; and for all I liked his New X-Men, there's definitely deep flaws. Narratively, and also in the art department.

I've said it before, but by the time I started reading regularly, New X-Men was history, a done deal. I think that made it easier for me to accept the bigger narrative flaws - not to mention, I don't have knowledge anywhere near as comprehensive as some of y'all here. I love Scott, I like Jean, and while I appreciate their relationship and see how important it is, I can be sold on relationships and Scott was with Emma at the time. I can't justify how that relationship began, it wasn't right, but what followed sold me on it. I think it's admittedly a case of cognitive dissonance, because that relationship was built on a foundation of sand.

This being the Jott Appreciation Thread, I am firmly in the camp that if Jott is the game plan, then I want it done well and with respect for the characters and their history. I can't abide what's being done now.

[Hizashi]

Is it something Xavier deliberately does or is it something Cerebro is programmed to do on its own? Does the data still contain the trauma (and simply doesnÂ’t upload it) or was it removed and it is lost forever?

SeriouslyÂ… the more I think about it, the more terrifying it gets.

It is terrifying - and I doubt we'll get any answers on this topic.

Right. It actually made me shudder.

This people would love me (read with all the sarcasm in the world), because IÂ’d annoy them SO much once they were back inside the scissor-lift. But I know how it goes: they just donÂ’t listen. You turn around and theyÂ’ll be doing it again.

I'm no foreman, I can't make anyone do anything, but for the love of gosh, why put yourself at risk like that? Boils my blood.

ItÂ’s killing people, it keeps infecting and mutating and rendering our vaccines less and less effective. The longer it goes on, the longer the global economy suffers and the longer it will take to recover. Do we want a whole generation of children who grew up without being allowed to play with other children?

I donÂ’t think itÂ’s time for balance.

ItÂ’s time to pull together and do what it takes to eradicate this virus. And I mean it: we need to stop trying to manage it and aim at eradicating it.

I didn't know it was that bad, good grief. Well, I just hope we're doing what we need to over here.

I think heÂ’d like a type of songs and she would like different ones. I donÂ’t think they hate each otherÂ’s taste in music and they can certainly listen to what the other is listening with no problem, but itÂ’s just not what moves them necessarily.

And then there would be old songs (sometimes cheesy ones) they wouldnÂ’t necessarily like to listen to by themselves, but theyÂ’d like to listen and even dance to them together.

In my headcanon, in whatever place in the world where they find themselves in, Scott is always able to find that radio station that plays the old, cheesy, romantic songs in evening! ItÂ’s part of his mutant power!

In my headcanon, her perfect recollection ability came in handy when they spent those 12 years together in the future. Without music, they sang to each other so they could still dance.



Speaking of their dancing, some days ago I found a cute fan art about it. IÂ’ll share soon.

I like to think that Scott likes Johnny Cash, but I don't have a grasp of Jean's likes. I can also see your romance songs head canon.

ItÂ’s so preposterous to have Jean saying that line, that I think thatÂ’s what happened. I think Marvel had a mandate for Jean to die and if you consider they *did* keep her dead for 15+ yearsÂ… it doesnÂ’t sound too much like a stretch.

Even if Morrison intended Jean to stay dead, what's in the books gave Marvel a ready-made path to bringing Jean back. And they wouldn't even need a pretext to do so - I just think it makes most sense that Morrison intended Jean to return sooner, much sooner, than she did.

The other day you mentioned a mutant with a radiation power just as I start watching Heroes again. And now this?

Like I wrote to Lancer, we're in a are in a crazy celestial alignment now.

Seriously, though, if you'd consider giving Sumo a try, go for it while Hakuho is still active. He might be retiring soon and he's one of the greatest of all time.

My roommate says his favorite is Tochinoshin? Maybe someday I'll give it a watch.

IÂ’m a woman but I do that too. Which is one of the reasons why I donÂ’t mind that at all if someone does it for me. I appreciate it and thank them.

Also, I think I know well enough what I can or canÂ’t do to care about what a man thinks of it. If a guy underestimates me, itÂ’s his problem and his mistake.

Years ago, I was travelling by my self with a heavy suitcase and it was late and I was so tiredÂ… I stopped in front of the staircase that led to the exit out of the metro and I looked up trying to gather the strength to start the climb. Then this guy, who looked like a foreigner who couldnÂ’t speak English (I was in London), pointed up and to my suitcase and smiled and carried it up the stairs for me. Then he just smiled again as I thanked him and then he walked away.

Perfect gentleman and I was so grateful!

I don't feel patronized when offered help, exactly because like you I think I have a pretty good grasp of my capabilities. Whether at work or at home, I appreciate help even if at times I don't necessarily need it.

My partner certainly doesnÂ’t because heÂ’s completely oblivious to this kind of stuff!

But our Mr. Summers certainly would.

Yeah, I have to imagine it's a constant reassurance to Scott. I bet it gives him a sense of energy.

You know, this is what I mean by thinking too much. I actually considered the following about those male heroes whose part of the uniform covers their neck and face: “we know for sure that [Steve Rogers, Scott Summers, Matt Murdock, Peter Parker, etc…] don’t have sensitive skins and problems with ingrown facial hair!

Yes, sometimes I have conversations with my own brain: “how and why do these thoughts even get to you, you crazy jelly?”

It's absolutely the sort of thing that is either taken into account when developing a character design, or the sort of thing that is logically necessary after the fact. It's similar to implied superpowers - someone with super-strength wouldn't necessarily have super durability, but they'd have to in order to function as a superhero or else they'd break their arms taking down a robot. I don't know, I like ruminating on these little details.

Oh, sorryÂ… there I was spoiling it again.

Haha, don't worry about it at all. I'm gonna get to those stories eventually, and they'll hit differently with full context.

[Hizashi]

So many things that I agree about this post...

I said this before, I don't think we should hold on to to continuity like a mad person and start screaming about a little detail that happened on a side story. But, at the same time, to simply throw away years and years of the history of a character is just disrespectful to the readers, in my opinion.

I read comics exactly because of the continuous aspect of the story: what comes before informs what is happening now and what will lead to in the future.

That's why I abhor reboots and those "it's a modern take for new readers" and those shifts in character motivation without any good explanation. This stuff drives me crazy.

I couldn't agree more with you about continuity; the one point of contention between is that I don't necessarily mind reboots, as long as they're applied consistently and clearly. If they're used in order to prune contradictory storylines, and it's made clear which stories are in continuity, then they work for me.

The "modern take for new readers" is also nonsense to me, and if editors aren't minding characterization, are they doing their jobs?

[cykecrawler]

Untitled_Artwork 2.jpg

Just some fan art I’ve been working on to try to forget the poly triangle in the krakoa era. Scott and Jean just drinking

[Grinning Soul]

No denying that ultimately what is canon is not interviews, it's what sees print. However, I thought Morrison had a lot of ambiguity, or scenes that could be interpreted different ways, in his run. This is where interviews can help. He's telling you how he sees Jott. A couple of these interviews has him saying pretty much what Scott said to Emma. I just think they give insight to his intention.

I still don't think his intention matters. What matter is what s written and he wrote ambiguity on purpose. So I analyse the ambiguity and point out it is ambiguous. And when you don't read his run isolation, because the life of those chracters didn't happen only on his run, you get a completely different read of those scenes.

If he really intended people to read what he thought of them. Well, I say too bad he didn't commit to make things more clear.

Myself, I wasn't tremendously concerned early on. Even the k Logan kiss issue because, as I said, I thought that was all about Scott.

Non-consensual kiss like all the previous ones. The only thing different about this one is that, after the kiss, instead of taunting her like he had done 2 out of 3 times, he did the decent thing and backed off because he - finally - understood that he would be taking (even more) advantage of her fragile state if he had pushed her.

Quick explanation about consent:

I don't expect my partner to ask me if he can kiss me whenever he wants. We are in a romantic relationship. Consent is implied as long as it’s also (always) revocable. Meaning: he can start kissing me whenever he wants and I can stop the kissing whenever I want. And vice versa.

NOTE (because pop culture can be gross like that): for consent to be revocable, both parties must be, necessarily, conscious!

Now, pre-Krakoan, Logan and Jean, had *never* been in a romantic relationship for him to benefit from implied consent. *Moreover* when he met her she was already in a relationship with someone else and he *knew* it.

Yet, there isn't a single instance of his approaching her non-threateningly, giving her the chance to back away, is there? None.

In fact, in 2 of those 4 kisses, she's not even facing him in the panel *right* before the kiss. In a third one she's not even looking at him, she's looking around, freaking out because reality is being undone around them and they'll die. The only one instance in which she is emotionally involved with him, specifically, is the one where they are in the same cell and he's dying and she's feeling sorry and sad, she's trying to comfort him. And then he goes and grabs her and if you look at her body expression it's just... ugh... how can anyone not be uncomfortable with that? Sure, he's dying, but it's still assault.

Since we are talking about body expression, hers is ambiguous at best. Compare to how that same woman kisses Scott and you'll see the difference. When Jean *wants* to kiss a man, she doesn't keep half of her body turned away, with one arm stretched back. She kisses Scott with her *whole body*, both arms around him, their chests pressed so tight it looks like it they were vacuum-sealed together, sometimes even her legs are part of the kiss. That, ladies and gentlemen, is the body expression of a passionate woman who wants that kiss, who desires that man.

So, really, it's freaking 2021. Can we start seeing those 4 damned kisses as what they actually are? Non-consensual, abusive stuff.

And once we see that, can we talk about how problematic it is to reward the abuser with a romantic relationship with their victim? It sends two harmful messages:

1) Abuse pays off
2) The relationship that comes after justifies and excuses the abuse.

Abuse is abuse. It doesn’t matter if the victim was attracted to the abuser. It doesn’t matter how the victim behaved during the abuse. It doesn’t matter if, after, the victim confronted the abuser or not. We don’t judge the victim. We judge the abuser!

Rewarding Emma with a relationship with Scott was already bad enough. But, at least, we can say it was done almost 20 years ago. What is the excuse now?

The Jean in that issue loves Scott the way she always has. It's why she's in such pain. I never, for a second, thought Scott slept with Emma in Hong Kong. The worries began when he started talking to Emma. When he called the entire marriage fake and going through the motions, I said, we got big problems here. And sure enough we did.

Jean uses one of her last coherent thoughts to ask about Scott, as she's dying near the sun. I don't think I need to say more.

And again: since Morrison left it deliberately ambiguous, when it comes to what Scott said of his marriage, I counter using Jean's own words: he's confused due to his trauma and being exploited in his emotional fragility. Why should we believe a clearly confused Scott (or Emma, who is acting on self-interest) above other characters? There. See? Morrison's own text allows anyone to say that.

Again: I don't think we should take what he intended into consideration. The work should speak for itself.

Thanks for posting those panels.

Sure, no problem.

Damn, I loved that series. Not just how they were as a couple either. Jean mentoring and training Nathan, Scott with a dying Rachel. THIS is how I saw the characters. I grew up reading books where I admired Scott, respected him. And that is how I felt about the guy in this series. All Lobdell, whose handling of these characters I saw knocked and I'd shake my head.

Bottom line, we all have our view of the characters and we sure as hell don't all see them the same way.

Yeah. And some people refuse to see things differently even if there's a good argument for it. What can we do?

[Grinning Soul]

Also since I’m feeling nostalgic feel the need to repost my favorite Scott and Jean commissions from over the years
You’ll notice I have an affinity for the 90s costumes lol

Thanks for sharing your art. :)

Those 90s uniforms were so bad, but they're so iconic. I often wonder why we have such affection towards it. Is it because of the cartoon or is it just because the X-Men felt so right back then?

All the big names were together, Professor X was mostly well-written, they were heroic and they rallied around the dream of co-existence... I don't know really... But I often think about it. :)

[Grinning Soul]

I forgot to tell you yesterday. I drank the Dr. Pepper can! :D

My first thought: “Oh, my God! This tastes so artificial”. But then I kept drinking and I kinda liked it. I wouldn’t buy it again if I wanted to drink cola and there was either Coke or Pepsi available, but if I’m ever in a place where I don’t trust the water and Dr. Pepper is all I can get, I won’t be afraid of buying it and not being able to drink it.

So, I’m more ready for the zombie apocalypse now! Thank you! :D

It is terrifying - and I doubt we'll get any answers on this topic.

Yeah… *sigh*

I'm no foreman, I can't make anyone do anything, but for the love of gosh, why put yourself at risk like that? Boils my blood.

Mine too. So that’s why I’d speak up and annoy them, knowing it would do nothing to change their behaviour. But I’d feel horrible if something happened without my even trying.

I didn't know it was that bad, good grief. Well, I just hope we're doing what we need to over here.

The thing is that we have to stop thinking in terms of “over here” and “over there”. The world is just too connected for that.

So far, around the world, there were 189,749,287 infections (that we know of) and 4,083,256 deaths in 1,5 years. For comparison, around 20 million military personnel died the WW2 over a period of 6 years.

Sure, it’s likely we’ll see less deaths because of the vaccines, but if we let ourselves keep getting infected, this virus will keep mutating and who knows if the next mutation won’t make the vaccines less effective again?

It takes some vision and some sacrifice, but it’s time we got together and fix this situation.

I like to think that Scott likes Johnny Cash, but I don't have a grasp of Jean's likes. I can also see your romance songs head canon.

I think Jean has a much more eclectic taste than Scott. She’s more emotional, right? So I think she likes whatever moves her (either physically or emotionally). I imagine she loves classical music, particularly Chopin and Debussy and also operas, particularly Puccini. I imagine she loves 80s music just because they have such a good rhythm. I imagine she likes pretty much any song where the singer sings very passionately or the melody is very emotional, that includes some cheesy rock ballads. I imagine Scott mocks her about it, but secretly loves those songs too because of her (it’s a guilty pleasure).

I talked about Scott’s taste a long time ago in his thread. I didn’t mention Johnny Cash, but I do agree he’d like him. I think he *loves* Elvis Presley, though. And other than the old romantic songs (the good ones he actually likes and the cheesy ones that are good to dance to), I think he mostly likes hard rock and progressive rock. I don’t think he enjoys many of the current songs because they tend to be so simplistic and they kinda all sound the same. I can see him grumpily pointing it out. :D

Maybe we should start posting some songs that we think the characters would like. What do you think? :)

Even if Morrison intended Jean to stay dead, what's in the books gave Marvel a ready-made path to bringing Jean back. And they wouldn't even need a pretext to do so - I just think it makes most sense that Morrison intended Jean to return sooner, much sooner, than she did.

Yeah. That’s for sure. She was the one character who could easily die and come back. Especially because she always died in context of the Phoenix, which is a force of life and death, based on the myth of a bird that rises from its own ashes!

But *this* character is the one character that Marvel has left dead for 20+ years (if you count both deaths).

Go figure…

My roommate says his favorite is Tochinoshin? Maybe someday I'll give it a watch.

Tochinoshin, a.k.a. Patches in this house, is not doing that great this tournament, unfortunately. I don’t think he was ever one of the best, but he’s one of the few who isn’t Asian.

I am a person who loves technique and Hakuho is really on another level when it comes to that. The other one who has a higher level of technique is Terunofuji (a.k.a. Bandages). I haven’t watched today’s matches yet, but yesterday they were both undefeated.

And it’s the first tournament for Hakuho after a long time away dealing with injuries. So, yeah, if it continues like that, the last day will be exciting! :D

I don't feel patronized when offered help, exactly because like you I think I have a pretty good grasp of my capabilities. Whether at work or at home, I appreciate help even if at times I don't necessarily need it.

Exactly. I assume people are trying to be nice. The world needs more of that so I think we should encourage that behaviour, not discourage it.

Yeah, I have to imagine it's a constant reassurance to Scott. I bet it gives him a sense of energy.

Yeah. And it matches what he said about the psychic rapport, right?



I think Jean’s gentleness and subtlety have always had a comforting, reassuring effect on his mood. She’s warm, inviting and accepting and that works like a charm for a guy like him.

Also - and I don’t mean it’s a bad thing at all - it’s kind of a masculine trait, isn’t it?

It varies from man to man, of course, but there is something about the way humans feel that comes from our more primitive instincts. In nature, females are more valuable individuals for the species. Meaning, you need less males for the species to survive (of course, too few of them and you’ll get in trouble because of genetic variance, but you get what I mean). And that leads some men to feel special, validated, energised (as you put it) for having being chosen by a woman (and much, much more when they they truly love their partner). It’s a very primitive and sub-conscious process, but it’s proof that they are valuable males, that they’re fulfilling their purpose. It can be very powerful, even if they’re unaware of it, therefore, experiencing this feeling is something they truly enjoy.

And it makes them more feel confident, which makes them more attractive to other women, which is also something I often hear my male friends complain about: the moment they are in a relationship it’s like they suddenly become visible! :D

It's absolutely the sort of thing that is either taken into account when developing a character design, or the sort of thing that is logically necessary after the fact. It's similar to implied superpowers - someone with super-strength wouldn't necessarily have super durability, but they'd have to in order to function as a superhero or else they'd break their arms taking down a robot. I don't know, I like ruminating on these little details.

Me too. Ruminate away, my friend. I’ll never get bored about it. My brain just lives for this stuff! :D

Haha, don't worry about it at all. I'm gonna get to those stories eventually, and they'll hit differently with full context.

I’ll try. But I’m a worrier! :D

I couldn't agree more with you about continuity; the one point of contention between is that I don't necessarily mind reboots, as long as they're applied consistently and clearly. If they're used in order to prune contradictory storylines, and it's made clear which stories are in continuity, then they work for me.

Can’t that be accomplished by a retcon, though?

The "modern take for new readers" is also nonsense to me, and if editors aren't minding characterization, are they doing their jobs?

I don’t know either. And I agree: it’s nonsense. And completely unnecessary.

"Modern take" for me would mean having the O5 boys not wearing suits everywhere, not using slangs from the 60s, using smartphones and computers etc… It doesn’t mean changing their personalities.

With very few exceptions, whenever they attempt that "modern take for new readers" they end up writing teen Jean as a brat, for some reason. Why? She was a sweet girl. She’s still a sweet woman. I take offense in this idea that every teenage girl is annoying like that and if you don’t portray them like that, you’re not portraying them well.