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  1. #226
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    It can be a little stressful. I've fallen into those kinds of cycles before, where two people are talking over each other. It's easier than we think.
    I find it harder to disengage in real life, though… At the same time, people tend to be nicer when they’re looking in your eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I love my job, it's super fulfilling. I could do without the heat though :D
    I grew up in a very hot city and I have low blood pressure. I used to carry little bags of salt with me in case I’d feel like fainting. Heat is no fun. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I thought that was funny too, I'd be okay with this outcome. Someone is gonna air Krakoa's dirty laundry, I think the likeliest candidates are Magneto, Mystique, or possibly even Scott and Jean's X-Men.
    Yeah. I’d think David Haller too, but since he’s only on a side book, it seems unlikely indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Well, my favorite anime/manga, Fullmetal Alchemist, is about as close to perfect as something can be for me, and I know it has some flaws.
    I have a couple of stories that I feel the same. I don't enjoy them any less because of the small flaws. Heck, I can really enjoy some stories with huge flaws as well just because I like the good stuff so much. Still, some people get really upset about it. Go figure, right? :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Exactly, that's the entire point of an editor. Sometimes you can tell when the editors are coasting, same as when they meddle too much.
    Can you tell that nowadays, though? Serious question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That's fair, my personal issues with the book aside, I can see that there were some interesting ideas. Tom Taylor has never been my favorite writer, but he is capable, I'm liking what he's done so far with Nightwing.
    I've never been much of a DC fan... And I'm basically reading X-Men now. I'm trying to work the courage to go back to my beloved Mr. Murdock, but I'm not there yet. I think I'll wait until he's back in his own uniform. It's probably a smart idea...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I guess, looking back on it, it works for those characters - Cassandra is a monster of course, she hardly deserves mercy. I guess I just don't like the idea of introducing something like that forcibly to someone else - the point of punishment is for the wrongdoer to see the error of their ways, they have to come to that conclusion themselves. If we developed some way to make people empathetic who weren't before, it should still be their choice to go through with it. Obviously, a person like that who is also a criminal would only be able to choose that or remain imprisoned but still.

    Also, I imagine a process like that could prove to be too much for some and lead to unfortunate outcomes.
    You know… I’ve been thinking about crime and penal systems for many years. It’s such a complex subject, but it really touches comic books too, particularly when the heroes commit a crime.

    I thought a lot about how telepathy could have a real, actual effect in the reform of criminals (not through forceful behaviour change, but through effective therapy). And the main problem I see with it is how to codify it under the law, when telepathic skills aren’t easily accessible.

    And that is my main problem with X-Men: Red and heroes acting as law enforcement in general.

    I don’t think Jean or any telepath has any right to force a psycopath who hasn’t commit any crimes to gain empathy. Functional psychopaths actually do exist, after all. But once they cross the line, once they kill a person (or millions of them), they have to be stopped.

    Now, regular law enforcement would imprison them and they would have no say. They would be tried, sure, but they’d be arrested because we, as a society, live under the concept of laws. But the criminals they didn’t consent to any of that.

    What I’m trying to say here is this: heroes acting as law enforcement is conceptually wrong. But allowing super villains to do as they please is morally wrong.

    Jean could have thrown Cassandra Nova in Rykers but she’s super dangerous. She’d probably find a way to get out of jail and hurt and kill many other people (or do worse). Or, she could have tried a different approach, one that might actually reform Cassandra. From this perspective, I really like X-Men: Red.

    Outside the story, though, we know it won’t work. Some writer will feel compelled to write the villain again and they’ll come up with some BS-excuse that will make the decision look naďve.

    The point is: it’s a complicated issue (and barely touched on it here) so I get the criticism and I’m not dismissing it at all. I’m just saying that - even considering this moral grey area - I liked it because it was something different, something softer, something hopeful. Something that is just as much Jean as a crazy display of fiery temper! :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    See, mercy from the DM seems like an open secret, it's a good thing. I think you have the right approach.
    Yeah. I try to face RPG stories as a book written by many hands. Protagonists shouldn’t die on stupid random encounters, but they should die from making stupid decisions. I tell that to the players before we even start playing.

    I just hide the dice rolls because I don’t them to know when and how often I’m saving their butts. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    It's fun to talk like this even or maybe especially when we have differing points of view.
    Yes! Even if it gets a bit messy, I think it’s worth it. Which is why I really don’t mind if someone joins the conversation. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That's fair, I can see why there's concern from Jean's fans. I'll worry for both of them.
    I’ve worried about Scott for… I don’t know, 20 years? I’m a worrier. It’s what I do. But the worry is of a different kind now. I’m not worried something horrible will happen in the story and he’ll become the next Scarlet Witch, you know?

    Although I’m not sure if I should (because I can’t tell if it’s just bad writing), I’ve been very worried about him in this Krakoan era because of his mental health state. Seriously. But I think - I hope - it was just because of Hickman. Therefore I’m relieved he won’t be writing him as much.

    Judging by Cable, I think Duggan will give him a much less weird vibe to him. There’ll be one big story about him and it’s probably going to be tied to Cable/Strife and that will probably be it: emotional, but without any tragic consequence or character assassination.

    That’s why I’m saying I think he’ll be fine.

    When it comes to Jean, though, I don’t consider there is anything that Marvel wouldn't ever do against her. So, yeah, there I worry. *A lot*.

    But most likely she’ll just be there: centre In the covers, wallpaper in the books. And that will be it.

  2. #227
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Lucy, I don't have time to reply to your post now. But I'll edit this one here and post the reply later, okay?

  3. #228
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    It´s ok take you time
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
    and the son of man that you care for him? Psalm 8

  4. #229
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Or I can just start a fresh post too. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    It could be two things: Scott is not acting like himself or this is Hickman´s take on Scott´s character given he was talked about as a "dreamer" in some interviews I guess they see this as him just giving his reason´s for wanting to be part of Krakoa, I personally don´t see Scott as a dreamer at all, he´s always been very practical and the dream thing involved mostly his belief in Charle´s dream of mutants and humans coexisting together and him trying his best to make that dream a reality and that same intensity is being now put to make Krakoa work as an idea and a country who gives the opportunity to others to do their own thing, not so long ago Percy did something similar with Woverine, he sees Krakoa as a second chances opportunity" not because it will magically became that possibility but that in could be an opportunity to change things for the better.

    I think this characterization could be done to show how much Scott has buy into Krakoa´s as a dream but also given the obvious shadows thrown into the creation of Krakoa, it also can be a deconstruction and criticism of Scott and the X-men in general, keeping that belief in Charles´s dream, Krakoa seems to be a situation in which they are confronted with the idea of "What if the dream changed" "Will they still believe in Charles" the answer so far seems to be YES but one wonders if that´s their actual will OR something else is happening.
    There’s a weird vibe about Krakoa, Scott and most characters. But I can’t tell if it’s intentional or the writers are just using this different setting as an excuse to write whatever the heck they want.

    And because we don’t know that, it’s really hard to estimate where anything can go.

    What I’m trying to say is that I don’t disagree with you. You might be entirely right here. The thing that bothers me is that’s it’s been so long and we *still* don’t know. And I don’t think we will actually know until this run is about to end. I really don’t think Inferno will make anything clearer when it comes to the characters.

    But I might be completely wrong. I hope I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Yes I liked that scene and Rachel did took Jean´s last name as a tribute to her after she died so imo they are in good terms and are close it´s just that we never see them interact with each other and I guess it has to do with writers being more inclined in showing the father/daughter relationship than the Mother/Daughter one but this is just my theory
    It’s about the writers indeed. Not the characters. It just reflects bad on the characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I thought this was Maddie saying goodbye to Scott not Jean, sorry I missunderstood, I think it would have been better for Madelyne to say goodbye to Scott and both of them keep custody of Nathan than her made into the globin Queen. I think that ending would have been better and would have allowed for Jean and Scott to be together again while also letting Maddie have her own life.
    That would be ideal, but near-impossible considering who/what Madelyine was. CC really trapped her when he created to be so ridiculously similar to Jean. She didn’t need to be, but CC wanted to keep writing Jean… Then he realised he actually wanted the Phoenix, so he created Rachel and forgot about Madelyine. Then he got upset that another writer wanted to write Scott instead of leaving him in a narrative limbo. And only then CC took interest in Madelyne again. But really: CC started this mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Me too and believe me there are forums where you literally have to take a stance or whatever you say is going to become a disccussion so I am grateful CBR still leaves room for debate and the moderators help in them not ending into disccussions of the person instead of the story.
    I’m old. I’m not really into social media so I’ll take your word for it. I find CBR (mostly) super toxic, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I guess I will revive an old debate.

    I don´t think that´s what happened with Onslaught, he was part of Charles subconscious, Charles absorbed Magneto´s memories, not his personality or point of view and Charles anger was the one who let Onslaught get out of his mind, so who was talking there was Charles´s dark persona not Magneto, because Magneto at the time was in a coma and uterlly unaware of what was happening. Sure the X-men and Avengers were quick to blame him for Onslaught because that was better than blaming Charles but I think in the end is Charles the one who wanted to accept his responsibility in the whole issue and part of that was accepting that Onslaught was his dark self being given life in the form as astral energy and that´s why he accepted to be arrested by Valerie Cooper even if the X-men were ready to defend him.

    This was not the first time Charles dark persona made his apparition, Claremont already had involved some storylines around this idea but Onsalught was the first time it became a real danger for everybody.

    I don´t think Charles himself is this dark persona but it´s a fact he doesn´t deal with his darker thoughts, he sends them to the background of his mind and they just get bigger and bigger until Charles stops being able to control them and given his power this can become an actual danger to the people around him, something he´s quite aware off and that´s why he begins that cycle again, of suppresing his darker impulses because he feels the need of showing himself as a person with pure intentions at all times for his dream and mission to become a reality but the problem is that he still is human so the bad thoughts that come so easily to mind are also part of him and he tries his best to forget or erase them from his mind.

    In a way I think that´s why he and Magneto formed such a strong friendship because Magneto doens´t have to see him as perfect to respect or admire his pov, Charles can show this part of him around him because he doesn´t expect him perfect and flawless while still accepting they see the world in different ways and that part of their friedship has always interested me.
    But the question here is this: everyone has a dark persona. But the dark persona of a powerful telepath is something powerful, a dark entity on its own.

    This is something that Scott is wondering around the time he invites Bobby, Hank and Warren to help him check if Jean is doing okay (considering that Nate Grey was around, bringing what they believed was Madelyne back to life out of the unconscious desire to be with his mother). Basically, back then, there was this idea that powerful telepaths could manifest their thoughts in the real world.

    It’s something most writers dropped, but that was the idea back then.

    The thing is, when you think of the resurrection protocols, for instance, what Charles re-inserts into the minds of the bodies that come out of the eggs is something similar to what he had absorbed from Magneto. So… it’s a lot. It’s enough to really make Onslaught half Magneto.

    Sure, without the dark persona of a ridiculously powerful telepath, you wouldn’t get an Onslaught. But you only get Onslaught because of Magneto.

    I’m not sure I’m being clear here… Is it possible to understand what I mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I actually thought this was a possibility at first I think Hickman let this scene at the beggining because he will get back to it in the middle of the story, I think this scene shows in a interesting way the shadows Krakoa is hidding.
    It's one of my theories, but *highly* speculative.
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 06-12-2021 at 03:30 PM.

  5. #230
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Or I can just start a fresh post too.

    ThereÂ’s a weird vibe about Krakoa, Scott and most characters. But I canÂ’t tell if itÂ’s intentional or the writers are just using this different setting as an excuse to write whatever the heck they want.
    And because we donÂ’t know that, itÂ’s really hard to estimate where anything can go.
    What IÂ’m trying to say is that I donÂ’t disagree with you. You might be entirely right here. The thing that bothers me is thatÂ’s itÂ’s been so long and we *still* donÂ’t know. And I donÂ’t think we will actually know until this run is about to end. I really donÂ’t think Inferno will make anything clearer when it comes to the characters.
    But I might be completely wrong. I hope I am.
    I think there´s an intentional weird vibe on Krakoa too but the characters are just like the readers in that they were send into this context and are kind of getting used to it while also discovering not everything is as it seems. This scene in particualr awoke all my alarms and so far Hickman has yet to address it but this confirms to me the weird vibe is part of the story.





    ItÂ’s about the writers indeed. Not the characters. It just reflects bad on the characters.
    Agreed this is why I think another writer like Kelly would do a good job showing their relationship.

    That would be ideal, but near-impossible considering who/what Madelyine was. CC really trapped her when he created to be so ridiculously similar to Jean. She didnÂ’t need to be, but CC wanted to keep writing JeanÂ… Then he realised he actually wanted the Phoenix, so he created Rachel and forgot about Madelyine. Then he got upset that another writer wanted to write Scott instead of leaving him in a narrative limbo. And only then CC took interest in Madelyne again. But really: CC started this mess.
    Agreed

    IÂ’m old. IÂ’m not really into social media so IÂ’ll take your word for it. I find CBR (mostly) super toxic, though.
    Sometimes but at least we still debate without it becoming an internal fan war, I have been on forums when people call you a nazi just because you disagree with them on a fictional character, at that point I just roll my eyes and go out because that kind of thought has so many wrong implications, I don´t know where to begin and CBR is still a place where you can agree or disagree without much problem, wish other forums were like that too.

    But the question here is this: everyone has a dark persona. But the dark persona of a powerful telepath is something powerful, a dark entity on its own.

    This is something that Scott is wondering around the time he invites Bobby, Hank and Warren to help him check if Jean is doing okay (considering that Nate Grey was around, bringing what they believed was Madelyne back to life out of the unconscious desire to be with his mother). Basically, back then, there was this idea that powerful telepaths could manifest their thoughts in the real world.

    ItÂ’s something most writers dropped, but that was the idea back then.

    The thing is, when you think of the resurrection protocols, for instance, what Charles re-inserts into the minds of the bodies that come out of the eggs is something similar to what he had absorbed from Magneto. SoÂ… itÂ’s a lot. ItÂ’s enough to really make Onslaught half Magneto.

    Sure, without the dark persona of a ridiculously powerful telepath, you wouldnÂ’t get an Onslaught. But you only get Onslaught because of Magneto.

    IÂ’m not sure IÂ’m being clear hereÂ… Is it possible to understand what I mean?
    I think Onslaught happens because of Charles guilt,anger and desperation if we read the previous books before Legion quest we see the beggining of the cracks in Charles mind, we see him remembering how Magneto saved his life once when he was alone on atartica, he operated him because he had some internal injuries and then made sure the X-men knew where he could be rescues, he did this without asking anything for it while Charles decided to shut his mind off on Avalon, he feels horrible because he thinks he could have done something different at that moment. He remembers them being friends on Israel and he regrets profoundly why they could not stay friends, David even used this memories to make him aware of his plan to get back to the past and kill off Magneto, thinking that would make Charles happy, he even began his treatment of Sabretooth to cure him of his violent impulses as overcompensation for him shutting down Magneto´s mind, something even a worried Scott, Jean, Storm and Hank tried and failed to talk to him.


    So imo yes the act of shutting down Magneto´s mind produced a internal crisis on Charles subconcious but not because of the memories themselves, but because of what this act meant for Charles doing something like that to Magneto when he would not do it to any living person, he always saw as a friend and almost the brother he never had so doing that during Fatal Atractions really put him in crisis.

    It's one of my theories, but *highly* speculative.
    I think it´s a good theory, it was quite popular on CBR during the first issues of the story as well as the mind control one, and imo this theory could very well be involved inside story, Reed bassically accused Charles of being a manipulator of minds during the recent FF and X-men crossover but who knows what else will happen now that the iluminati are together again.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 06-12-2021 at 04:07 PM.
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
    and the son of man that you care for him? Psalm 8

  6. #231
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I think there´s an intentional weird vibe on Krakoa too but the characters are just like the readers in that they were send into this context and are kind of getting used to it while also discovering not everything is as it seems. This scene in particualr awoke all my alarms and so far Hickman has yet to address it but this confirms to me the weird vibe is part of the story.
    That’s just one of many things that creeps me out. But I was already way creeped out when I read that scene. :D

    That’s about Doug not wanting people to know that his self-friend is around as a separate entity. Maybe it ties with the Utopian-era New Mutants books? We don’t know.

    He does mention something about it as he’s training for the X of Swords tournament and Warlock is supposed to serve as his sword. I’d have to go back to those issues, but I don’t think he actually explains why he’s doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Agreed this is why I think another writer like Kelly would do a good job showing their relationship.
    Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed. Jean will be with X-Men now and the focus won’t be on her family life (not that it actually was, but it was supposed to have been).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Sometimes but at least we still debate without it becoming an internal fan war, I have been on forums when people call you a nazi just because you disagree with them on a fictional character, at that point I just roll my eyes and go out because that kind of thought has so many wrong implications, I don´t know where to begin and CBR is still a place where you can agree or disagree without much problem, wish other forums were like that too.
    Wow… it gets worse, then? Why am I surprised? I should know by now that it can *always* get worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I think Onslaught happens because of Charles guilt,anger and desperation if we read the previous books before Legion quest we see the beggining of the cracks in Charles mind, we see him remembering how Magneto saved his life once when he was alone on atartica, he operated him because he had some internal injuries and then made sure the X-men knew where he could be rescues, he did this without asking anything for it while Charles decided to shut his mind off on Avalon, he feels horrible because he thinks he could have done something different at that moment. He remembers them being friends on Israel and he regrets profoundly why they could not stay friends, David even used this memories to make him aware of his plan to get back to the past and kill off Magneto, thinking that would make Charles happy, he even began his treatment of Sabretooth to cure him of his violent impulses as overcompensation for him shutting down Magneto´s mind, something even a worried Scott, Jean, Storm and Hank tried and failed to talk to him.

    So imo yes the act of shutting down Magneto´s mind produced a internal crisis on Charles subconcious but not because of the memories themselves, but because of what this act meant for Charles doing something like that to Magneto when he would not do it to any living person, he always saw as a friend and almost the brother he never had so doing that during Fatal Atractions really put him in crisis.
    I don’t disagree with you. Charles state of mind is the sparkle, sure, but Charles is just part of the equation.

    Let’s put it like this: Charles alone doesn’t have all the ingredients to bake an Onslaught cake, even if he’s the baking powder. You get what I mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I think it´s a good theory, it was quite popular on CBR during the first issues of the story as well as the mind control one, and imo this theory could very well be involved inside story, Reed bassically accused Charles of being a manipulator of minds during the recent FF and X-men crossover but who knows what else will happen now that the iluminati are together again.
    Okay, like I promised on Jean’s thread, this is what I think could be affecting the character’s behaviour… There are lots of ideas here so I won’t expand on all of them at once. I’ll just mention them and we can discuss the ones you think are interesting (if there's any). Or we can go through each other as well (thought some are self-explanatory). Up to you.

    1) they're all clones - what if the first page of HoX is actuall in chronological order? - like I was just talking about.

    2) being drained psychically - by Krakoa's feeding of their psychic energy - has a direct effect on their psyche.

    3) there's an actual symbiosis going on that might affect the character's biochemistry, which affects how they think and feel (to understand how powerful and extreme biochemistry can be, see: Ophiocordyceps unilateralis fungus) - I talked briefly about it with Hizashi, here in this thread.

    4) Krakoa deliberately influences them psychically - regardless of good/bad intentions - I talked to you briefly about it in Jean’s thread.

    5) ressurection protocol: what about the soul?

    6) something about having the mind rewritten - does that mind that is in the body which comes out of the egg, fully, perfectly merges with the backup? And other considerations, for example: what if, like Jean in the cocoon, that minds rejects those memories that are being implanted?

    7) unavoidable data corrution of cerebro with each death (how does dying in the otherworld even affect the database if the data is truly independant/isolated?)

    8) deliberate data corruption of cerebro in order to keep Krakoa's soldiers/heroes compliant.

    9) either because of how the power of the 5 work or because the genetics is based on Sinister's cloning technique (which judging by Madelyne and the Marauders isn't perfect), biologically, the cloning process could be flawed, leading to changes their biochemical make-up of the bodies (no one of those people lived long enough for us to tell how stable those bodies are).

    10) Sinister is deliberately playing with their DNA

    11) Kurt's mind bug.

  7. #232
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    ThatÂ’s just one of many things that creeps me out. But I was already way creeped out when I read that scene.

    That’s about Doug not wanting people to know that his self-friend is around as a separate entity. Maybe it ties with the Utopian-era New Mutants books? We don’t know.

    He does mention something about it as he’s training for the X of Swords tournament and Warlock is supposed to serve as his sword. I’d have to go back to those issues, but I donÂ’t think he actually explains why heÂ’s doing it.
    Warlock is part of the Phalanx who are the big bads at the end of Powers of X so him already acting weird brought out my alarms, I love warlock and he went with the New Mutants to the Gala so most of Krakoa knows he´s living with Doug but they have acted a little strange since the beggining imo.

    Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed. Jean will be with X-Men now and the focus wonÂ’t be on her family life (not that it actually was, but it was supposed to have been).
    Agreed we will have to wait if another writers gets interested, I don´t need much, just a cute, nice scene of them fighthing together or something like that

    Wow… it gets worse, then? Why am I surprised? I should know by now that it can *always* get worse.
    Yes it always can get worse.

    I don’t disagree with you. Charles state of mind is the sparkle, sure, but Charles is just part of the equation.
    LetÂ’s put it like this: Charles alone doesnÂ’t have all the ingredients to bake an Onslaught cake, even if heÂ’s the baking powder. You get what I mean?
    Yes I see it still Onslaught had Magneto´s memories but was living at Charles subconsious and grew from there I could see him as a new astral entity different from both, like one of David´s personalities or as Spurrier put it "their astral heir" but I don´t think there is an exact word that could be used to describe Onslaught other than he has a link to them both but is also it´s own self.


    Okay, like I promised on JeanÂ’s thread, this is what I think could be affecting the characterÂ’s behaviourÂ… There are lots of ideas here so I wonÂ’t expand on all of them at once. IÂ’ll just mention them and we can discuss the ones you think are interesting (if there's any). Or we can go through each other as well (thought some are self-explanatory). Up to you.

    1) they're all clones - what if the first page of HoX is actuall in chronological order? - like I was just talking about.

    2) being drained psychically - by Krakoa's feeding of their psychic energy - has a direct effect on their psyche.

    3) there's an actual symbiosis going on that might affect the character's biochemistry, which affects how they think and feel (to understand how powerful and extreme biochemistry can be, see: Ophiocordyceps unilateralis fungus) - I talked briefly about it with Hizashi, here in this thread.

    4) Krakoa deliberately influences them psychically - regardless of good/bad intentions - I talked to you briefly about it in JeanÂ’s thread.

    5) ressurection protocol: what about the soul?

    6) something about having the mind rewritten - does that mind that is in the body which comes out of the egg, fully, perfectly merges with the backup? And other considerations, for example: what if, like Jean in the cocoon, that minds rejects those memories that are being implanted?

    7) unavoidable data corrution of cerebro with each death (how does dying in the otherworld even affect the database if the data is truly independant/isolated?)

    8) deliberate data corruption of cerebro in order to keep Krakoa's soldiers/heroes compliant.

    9) either because of how the power of the 5 work or because the genetics is based on Sinister's cloning technique (which judging by Madelyne and the Marauders isn't perfect), biologically, the cloning process could be flawed, leading to changes their biochemical make-up of the bodies (no one of those people lived long enough for us to tell how stable those bodies are).

    10) Sinister is deliberately playing with their DNA

    11) Kurt's mind bug.
    I think the comics have given us reason to suspect at least half of your list on Way of X we saw:

    Kurts mind bug messing with their inhibitions, partial memory loss between ressurrections, the soul question still being left open. The patchwork man calling Charles "betrayer" which is still left unexplained.

    On X of Swords we saw data corruption changing them completely and if this happens, are they still them or are they just copys that have the memories of the original person?

    House of X

    Selene, Emplante, Krakoa are feeding directly from every mutant on the island who knows what this could do to their mind.

    FF vs X-men prologue

    Sinister talked about mixing the omega´s powers to make the quimeras and on Hellions he already addmited to have his own clones ready appart from the ones made by the five.

    I could see all of this happening at the same time and that makes me think that unless Krakoa´s leadership addresses this and corrects it, this could bring down Krakoa from the inside.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 06-13-2021 at 12:32 AM.
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
    and the son of man that you care for him? Psalm 8

  8. #233
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Warlock is part of the Phalanx who are the big bads at the end of Powers of X so him already acting weird brought out my alarms, I love warlock and he went with the New Mutants to the Gala so most of Krakoa knows he´s living with Doug but they have acted a little strange since the beggining imo.
    Does Doug know about the Phalanx role in the future of humanity, though?

    Anyway, they have been acting weird indeed, but I don’t think we were given any clue as to why yet. I really have to go back to that issue… But X of Swords is so big and I really don’t remember in which book it happened and I’m lazy. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Agreed we will have to wait if another writers gets interested, I don´t need much, just a cute, nice scene of them fighthing together or something like that :)
    I don’t need much either. They don’t even need to be fighting. They could even be brushing each other's hair if male writers can't think of anything more creative for a mother/daughter duo to be doing together. I would honestly find it really sweet. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Yes I see it still Onslaught had Magneto´s memories but was living at Charles subconsious and grew from there I could see him as a new astral entity different from both, like one of David´s personalities or as Spurrier put it "their astral heir" but I don´t think there is an exact word that could be used to describe Onslaught other than he has a link to them both but is also it´s own self..
    Yeah. I think “offspring” is a better word. He’s that offspring of the union of those minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I think the comics have given us reason to suspect at least half of your list on Way of X we saw:
    Yep. Like I said to Hizashi, they’re all speculations, but they’re based on the stuff we’ve seen in the actual books.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Kurts mind bug messing with their inhibitions, partial memory loss between ressurrections, the soul question still being left open. The patchwork man calling Charles "betrayer" which is still left unexplained.
    Unfortunately, David didn’t really explain what that bug was doing in Kurt’s mind. But it certainly wasn’t supposed to be there or he wouldn’t have removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    On X of Swords we saw data corruption changing them completely and if this happens, are they still them or are they just copys that have the memories of the original person?
    Yes. Moreover, why does dying in the Otherworld affects the backup at all, if the backup isn’t somehow connected to the mind that is actually active in the body?

    And if it is connected, how does the experience of dying (even in the “normal” world) affect the back-up? Does it corrupt it a tiny bit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Selene, Emplante, Krakoa are feeding directly from every mutant on the island who knows what this could do to their mind.
    Would anyone even be aware it’s doing something when they’re affected themselves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    FF vs X-men prologue
    Oh, this mini-even is such a mess, I don’t know even know what to say about it.

    Serious question: did mutants get amnesty from past crimes or actual immunity? I thought it was the first, but this event talks about the latter.

    Those are two very different things!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Sinister talked about mixing the omega´s powers to make the quimeras and on Hellions he already addmited to have his own clones ready appart from the ones made by the five.
    He’s up to no good. Everyone knows that. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I could see all of this happening at the same time and that makes me think that unless Krakoa´s leadership addresses this and corrects it, this could bring down Krakoa from the inside.
    Oh, yeah. And I’m eagerly awaiting for it! Popcorn ready and all! :D

  9. #234
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I find it harder to disengage in real life, though… At the same time, people tend to be nicer when they’re looking in your eyes.
    Oh yeah, much harder to be a jerk in person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I grew up in a very hot city and I have low blood pressure. I used to carry little bags of salt with me in case I’d feel like fainting. Heat is no fun.
    I haven't suffered that yet, you don't want to be the guy who wasn't keeping track of his hydration so you fainted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yeah. I’d think David Haller too, but since he’s only on a side book, it seems unlikely indeed.
    It seems to me that he and Nightcrawler will be the instigators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I have a couple of stories that I feel the same. I don't enjoy them any less because of the small flaws. Heck, I can really enjoy some stories with huge flaws as well just because I like the good stuff so much. Still, some people get really upset about it. Go figure, right?
    My friend likes things that I can't stand and then dislikes things because of a soundtrack choice. People are weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Can you tell that nowadays, though? Serious question.
    Probably not now, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I've never been much of a DC fan... And I'm basically reading X-Men now. I'm trying to work the courage to go back to my beloved Mr. Murdock, but I'm not there yet. I think I'll wait until he's back in his own uniform. It's probably a smart idea...
    I don't have a hard line preference for one or the other - sometimes one is better, but I like both. For me, DC has Superman, Batman, Nightwing, Green Lantern, Flash, Wonder Woman, Justice League; Marvel has X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Captain America, Thor, and Daredevil (bolded are on my pull list). There isn't much at Marvel right now for me unfortunately. As far as Daredevil goes, he's top five favorite of mine, and I don't know about reading his book either. I didn't read the run where he became a prosecutor, that doesn't work for me either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    You know… I’ve been thinking about crime and penal systems for many years. It’s such a complex subject, but it really touches comic books too, particularly when the heroes commit a crime.

    I thought a lot about how telepathy could have a real, actual effect in the reform of criminals (not through forceful behaviour change, but through effective therapy). And the main problem I see with it is how to codify it under the law, when telepathic skills aren’t easily accessible.

    And that is my main problem with X-Men: Red and heroes acting as law enforcement in general.

    I don’t think Jean or any telepath has any right to force a psycopath who hasn’t commit any crimes to gain empathy. Functional psychopaths actually do exist, after all. But once they cross the line, once they kill a person (or millions of them), they have to be stopped.

    Now, regular law enforcement would imprison them and they would have no say. They would be tried, sure, but they’d be arrested because we, as a society, live under the concept of laws. But the criminals they didn’t consent to any of that.

    What I’m trying to say here is this: heroes acting as law enforcement is conceptually wrong. But allowing super villains to do as they please is morally wrong.

    Jean could have thrown Cassandra Nova in Rykers but she’s super dangerous. She’d probably find a way to get out of jail and hurt and kill many other people (or do worse). Or, she could have tried a different approach, one that might actually reform Cassandra. From this perspective, I really like X-Men: Red.

    Outside the story, though, we know it won’t work. Some writer will feel compelled to write the villain again and they’ll come up with some BS-excuse that will make the decision look naďve.

    The point is: it’s a complicated issue (and barely touched on it here) so I get the criticism and I’m not dismissing it at all. I’m just saying that - even considering this moral grey area - I liked it because it was something different, something softer, something hopeful. Something that is just as much Jean as a crazy display of fiery temper!
    That's fair, I see what you mean, and I think we just have a difference of perspective. It doesn't work 100% for me, and in a vacuum I don't like it at all.

    As far as consent goes regarding psychopaths/general criminals in relation to the law, I think this is a case where living in a society is consent to laws and punishment. It's more nuanced than that, but I think that's the starting point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yeah. I try to face RPG stories as a book written by many hands. Protagonists shouldn’t die on stupid random encounters, but they should die from making stupid decisions. I tell that to the players before we even start playing.

    I just hide the dice rolls because I don’t them to know when and how often I’m saving their butts.
    Haha, that's the right approach I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yes! Even if it gets a bit messy, I think it’s worth it. Which is why I really don’t mind if someone joins the conversation.
    Looks like this thread has been monopolized by you, Lucy, and I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I’ve worried about Scott for… I don’t know, 20 years? I’m a worrier. It’s what I do. But the worry is of a different kind now. I’m not worried something horrible will happen in the story and he’ll become the next Scarlet Witch, you know?

    Although I’m not sure if I should (because I can’t tell if it’s just bad writing), I’ve been very worried about him in this Krakoan era because of his mental health state. Seriously. But I think - I hope - it was just because of Hickman. Therefore I’m relieved he won’t be writing him as much.

    Judging by Cable, I think Duggan will give him a much less weird vibe to him. There’ll be one big story about him and it’s probably going to be tied to Cable/Strife and that will probably be it: emotional, but without any tragic consequence or character assassination.

    That’s why I’m saying I think he’ll be fine.

    When it comes to Jean, though, I don’t consider there is anything that Marvel wouldn't ever do against her. So, yeah, there I worry. *A lot*.

    But most likely she’ll just be there: centre In the covers, wallpaper in the books. And that will be it.
    Maybe we just have to hope that Jean makes it through this mostly intact so a writer who's interested in her character can have a go.

    Ideally we'd get that Cyclops/Phoenix book...
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  10. #235
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I think there´s an intentional weird vibe on Krakoa too but the characters are just like the readers in that they were send into this context and are kind of getting used to it while also discovering not everything is as it seems. This scene in particualr awoke all my alarms and so far Hickman has yet to address it but this confirms to me the weird vibe is part of the story.







    Agreed this is why I think another writer like Kelly would do a good job showing their relationship.



    Agreed



    Sometimes but at least we still debate without it becoming an internal fan war, I have been on forums when people call you a nazi just because you disagree with them on a fictional character, at that point I just roll my eyes and go out because that kind of thought has so many wrong implications, I don´t know where to begin and CBR is still a place where you can agree or disagree without much problem, wish other forums were like that too.



    I think Onslaught happens because of Charles guilt,anger and desperation if we read the previous books before Legion quest we see the beggining of the cracks in Charles mind, we see him remembering how Magneto saved his life once when he was alone on atartica, he operated him because he had some internal injuries and then made sure the X-men knew where he could be rescues, he did this without asking anything for it while Charles decided to shut his mind off on Avalon, he feels horrible because he thinks he could have done something different at that moment. He remembers them being friends on Israel and he regrets profoundly why they could not stay friends, David even used this memories to make him aware of his plan to get back to the past and kill off Magneto, thinking that would make Charles happy, he even began his treatment of Sabretooth to cure him of his violent impulses as overcompensation for him shutting down Magneto´s mind, something even a worried Scott, Jean, Storm and Hank tried and failed to talk to him.


    So imo yes the act of shutting down Magneto´s mind produced a internal crisis on Charles subconcious but not because of the memories themselves, but because of what this act meant for Charles doing something like that to Magneto when he would not do it to any living person, he always saw as a friend and almost the brother he never had so doing that during Fatal Atractions really put him in crisis.



    I think it´s a good theory, it was quite popular on CBR during the first issues of the story as well as the mind control one, and imo this theory could very well be involved inside story, Reed bassically accused Charles of being a manipulator of minds during the recent FF and X-men crossover but who knows what else will happen now that the iluminati are together again.
    Things like Doug/Warlock, the Illuminati, Sinister and Apocalypse on the QC, manipulating Mystique, has me thinking "why are the X-Men setting themselves up for failure like this?", like having all these avenues for critical issues. Antagonizing the Fantastic Four, that's a no-no in my book.

    So would you pick Kelly Thompson to write a Cyclops/Phoenix book? What would be your ideal creative team?
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  11. #236
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Does Doug know about the Phalanx role in the future of humanity, though?
    No Doug doesn´t know but in one scene when Xavier asked him to make the krakoan language he left a part of Warlock on the island and one of sinister secrets talked about Warlock comunicating with the Phalanx so we will see what else they do.

    Anyway, they have been acting weird indeed, but I donÂ’t think we were given any clue as to why yet. I really have to go back to that issueÂ… But X of Swords is so big and I really donÂ’t remember in which book it happened and IÂ’m lazy.
    It happened on the HoX/PoX story and the image is from the crucible issue of X-men.


    I donÂ’t need much either. They donÂ’t even need to be fighting. They could even be brushing each other's hair if male writers can't think of anything more creative for a mother/daughter duo to be doing together. I would honestly find it really sweet.
    I think Rachel is a little old for that but them sharing their ideas for the future or just talking about X-factor and Quiet ciuncil meetings would be nice for me.

    Yeah. I think “offspring” is a better word. He’s that offspring of the union of those minds.
    In a way yes but it still isn´t exactly that.

    Yep. Like I said to Hizashi, theyÂ’re all speculations, but theyÂ’re based on the stuff weÂ’ve seen in the actual books.
    Agreed

    Unfortunately, David didnÂ’t really explain what that bug was doing in KurtÂ’s mind. But it certainly wasnÂ’t supposed to be there or he wouldnÂ’t have removed.
    I think it was implied the bug was put there by Onslaught and he said it was to destabilize Krakoa from the inside by lowering their inhibitions and making them way more daring and violent but also unstable, that´s why Legion said he only trust Kurt because he already took the bug from him but most probably the others still have it on their mind.

    Yes. Moreover, why does dying in the Otherworld affects the backup at all, if the backup isnÂ’t somehow connected to the mind that is actually active in the body?
    Yes I didn´t understand this either if the backup is safe on Krakoa and their body is made by the five, why would dying on otherworld affect them? unless the magic there messes with the ressurrection process someway?

    And if it is connected, how does the experience of dying (even in the “normal” world) affect the back-up? Does it corrupt it a tiny bit?
    Looks like it, the Rockslide was completely changed no matter the backup so it got corrupted and this even considering there´s a loss of memories between ressurrections. My problem is that the writting is treating the characters as if they were tapes that can be uploaded on their bodies, which would make them clones because that´s exactly how the are made in the MU instead of people with souls, so how or when do they bring back that soul? Charles has the memories in cerebro not the souls and in way of X there´s implied something of themselves was lost between ressurrections.

    Would anyone even be aware itÂ’s doing something when theyÂ’re affected themselves?
    Domino wanted to keep a memory but lost it between ressurrection and this got Logan´s attention and was kind of worried but he has yet to investigate this.

    Oh, this mini-even is such a mess, I donÂ’t know even know what to say about it.

    Serious question: did mutants get amnesty from past crimes or actual immunity? I thought it was the first, but this event talks about the latter.

    Those are two very different things!
    It´s not amnesty or immunity is more like legally speaking all mutants can claim to be citizens of Krakoa, even if they don´t live there and so they can be judged by Krakoa´s laws instead of those from other countries.

    HeÂ’s up to no good. Everyone knows that.
    Yes and I think other council members are just waiting for him to give them a reason to take him out for good XD

    Oh, yeah. And IÂ’m eagerly awaiting for it! Popcorn ready and all!
    I just want to see where all this leads to.
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
    and the son of man that you care for him? Psalm 8

  12. #237
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I haven't suffered that yet, you don't want to be the guy who wasn't keeping track of his hydration so you fainted.
    I only fainted once and it was really quick. People around me were more scared than I was. It was actually during one of the few LARPG sessions and they weren't sure if I was acting or not. I really wasn't. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    It seems to me that he and Nightcrawler will be the instigators.
    Lucy and I have been wondering about it: just how big the influence of Way of X will prove itself to be on Krakoa's society? Will it be just something the characters in other books will mention (to be fair, most writers are referencing the work of other books) or will it actually have a more profound impact?

    It’s hard to predict at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    My friend likes things that I can't stand and then dislikes things because of a soundtrack choice. People are weird.
    Isn’t that the truth? :D

    But then again, I know that’s my perspective because I *am* the weird one. I’ve always been weird, since I was a little girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I don't have a hard line preference for one or the other - sometimes one is better, but I like both. For me, DC has Superman, Batman, Nightwing, Green Lantern, Flash, Wonder Woman, Justice League; Marvel has X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Captain America, Thor, and Daredevil (bolded are on my pull list). There isn't much at Marvel right now for me unfortunately. As far as Daredevil goes, he's top five favorite of mine, and I don't know about reading his book either. I didn't read the run where he became a prosecutor, that doesn't work for me either.
    Daredevil *is* my favourite Marvel hero. It’s unfair to compare him to Jean and Scott because he’s had his solo book for decades, but yeah, he’s my favourite.

    And here’s the thing: I had read *everything* Daredevil until Waid’s run. But, when he moved DD to San Francisco, I just couldn’t stomach anymore. Matt Murdock read like a man having a midlife crisis… I lost my patience. So I decided I would wait for Waid to leave, then I’d catch up and go on reading the book. But they turned Matt into a prosecutor and the idea was so nonsensical (so insulting even to the character) that I just couldn’t bother.

    And now he’s not Daredevil.

    You see? I really miss him. But I don’t feel compelled enough to go back. Not yet. I *think* that if Marvel ever allow him to wear his own uniform and codename again, I can give it a try.

    Sad times… But like I said here, sometimes you really need to take a long break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That's fair, I see what you mean, and I think we just have a difference of perspective. It doesn't work 100% for me, and in a vacuum I don't like it at all.
    It’s a complicated issue. And like I said, I think a lot about it in real life terms too.

    The whole penal system for me doesn’t make any sense if we don’t somehow address reforming the criminals. And I just can’t think of an effective way to do it.

    I understand we can’t leave people who harm other people running free. I understand we need laws and trials and jails. But we need something more as well.

    It’s very complex and very hard to estimate absolute rights and absolute wrongs. But the idea of actual reforming someone… It really sounds like a dream, you know?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    As far as consent goes regarding psychopaths/general criminals in relation to the law, I think this is a case where living in a society is consent to laws and punishment. It's more nuanced than that, but I think that's the starting point.
    We have like a social contract. We understand that for us to be part of that society, we have to abide to its rules. The problem is… we don’t really have an option, right? If I don’t like the laws of the country where I live, I can’t really go live in another. There’s a matter of citizenship involved.

    Now, I’m going to guess that you and I don’t have a problem following the rules. We get all of us have to adapt and live with rules we don’t like and maybe try to change them. But that’s not true for all people. What if a person is a true anarchist in their heart? What if they don’t recognise authority and governments? We assume they have to integrate just because they were born in the same place that we did. But what if they don’t agree? No one asked them and they don’t have a choice.

    So the whole point of law-breaking and consent, ultimately, is forced. It doesn’t feel forced to us because we accept it. But to criminals? They’re always forced. So where is the actual line that we can’t ethically cross? What’s written in the law? I’d say it’s a good compromise. But if we accept that compromise, no super hero should be meddling in crime-fightning without actually becoming part of law enforcement and abiding by the rules and laws they have to answer to.

    You see? It’s complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Looks like this thread has been monopolized by you, Lucy, and I.
    Well, it’s a public discussion so everyone can jump in. If they do so in a respectful way, it would make me truly happy. :)

    Don’t be shy, guys. Join us!

    But if they’re happy to just be reading too, I don’t mind keeping the conversation between the three of us either. It’s been really nice! :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Maybe we just have to hope that Jean makes it through this mostly intact so a writer who's interested in her character can have a go.

    Ideally we'd get that Cyclops/Phoenix book...
    Yeah. That’s what I’m hoping. Pretty wallpaper is not so bad, after all, considering everything bad that can happen instead. Or so I keep trying to remind myself of.

    Hopefully the next writers will want to see her as an actually character and will want to keep Jean and Scott together, even if it’s only because of the movies.

    I’m not sure they can survive as a couple given the setting we currently have, but I truly hope so.

    I’d love a new Cyclops/Phoenix book. I’d prefer a Cyclops/Marvel Woman book, but I’d even be happy with a Cyclops/Marvel Girl one at this point. :D
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 06-13-2021 at 11:21 AM.

  13. #238
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Things like Doug/Warlock, the Illuminati, Sinister and Apocalypse on the QC, manipulating Mystique, has me thinking "why are the X-Men setting themselves up for failure like this?", like having all these avenues for critical issues. Antagonizing the Fantastic Four, that's a no-no in my book.
    Agreed but I think from all these critical issues only the situation with Reed and Mystique the others were just reactions to Krakoa´s existence and Sinister situation is pretty much a case of "I know you are going to betray me so I will keep you close to see what you are doing"

    So would you pick Kelly Thompson to write a Cyclops/Phoenix book? What would be your ideal creative team?
    I like Kelly Thompson because she´s been good at writting Luke Cage and Jessica Jones stories even with her as the protagonist Luko got some nice writting but for a mini of Jean and Scott I would pick Al Ewing or Duggan and Valerio Schiti from the current X-office. I will have to think about other names, I like a lot of writers but I don´t know how they would do at adventure/romance. The thing I liked the most about the original Cyclops/Phoenix story was that it was an epic story that still was just about a family trying their best to live their life.
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
    and the son of man that you care for him? Psalm 8

  14. #239
    Incredible Member rhaenylis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I like Kelly Thompson because she´s been good at writting Luke Cage and Jessica Jones stories even with her as the protagonist Luko got some nice writting but for a mini of Jean and Scott I would pick Al Ewing or Duggan and Valerio Schiti from the current X-office. I will have to think about other names, I like a lot of writers but I don´t know how they would do at adventure/romance. The thing I liked the most about the original Cyclops/Phoenix story was that it was an epic story that still was just about a family trying their best to live their life.
    I think I read somewhere that Kelly prefers Scemma

    Between Duggan and Ewing I admit that I would prefer the first because I don't really know what Ewing thinks of Jott

  15. #240
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Ewing did a good job with Jean on SWORD but I have not seen him write Scott yet, still Ewing is one of those writers who does a lot of research so I think he would do well for them as a couple and I guess we will see Duggan try his hand with them on X-men #1 I think he will do well.
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
    and the son of man that you care for him? Psalm 8

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