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  1. #931
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Haters will be haters, Mercury. And haters read whatever they want to read on the panels.
    This is very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    There's nothing there that gives the slight impression that Jean altered the minds of the people who voted for Lorna in order for them to vote for her. They voted for Lorna because the message "just pick me" was enough for them. They *wanted* her to be on the team.
    Exactly. Also, if I may belabor my point, there is nothing that gives the impression that Lorna accepted the position on the team based on anything Jean did, which indicates, as stated in the issue, that she wanted to be a member of the team to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    And again: I'm *not* arguing that Jean didn't have the best intentions at heart.
    I know you’re not arguing this, and it is clear that she had good intentions. Furthermore, I understand why people have criticized her for going with Lorna’s initial inclination instead of her subsequent response. However, some people are completely mischaracterizing what was done, which I am not okay with.

    I’m all for having objective and logical discussions in which we each analyze the behaviors and intentions of characters, just as long as the intended context as setup by the writers and editors is taken into consideration. Again, I am not saying you’re doing this, but I’ve noticed some people have a tendency of decontextualizing certain scenes, or even changing what happens in those scenes, in order to more convincingly tear down certain characters.

    I’m sorry, but I won’t have any of that, especially when it comes to Jean. I will call it out every single time I see it.

  2. #932
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    That is a valid point, though the overemphasis on said point gives the false impression that the only reason Lorna is on the team is because Jean forced her to be. I know it is not your intention to make it seem as if Jean did this, but it is certainly what others have implied.
    She didn't force her long term, but she momentarily tipped the scale in the candidacy, which isn't fair to candidates who didn't second guess themselves at least for this inaugural election. It's a bad precedent even if we try and say she was doing it to help her.

  3. #933
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    She didn't force her long term, but she momentarily tipped the scale in the candidacy, which isn't fair to candidates who didn't second guess themselves at least for this inaugural election. It's a bad precedent even if we try and say she was doing it to help her.
    She did not “tip the scale.” Doing so would have entailed her signaling to voters to vote for Lorna, or, worse yet, forcing them to vote for her. Moreover, based on how the election was described, Lorna was already one of the ten official candidates.

  4. #934
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Exactly. Also, if I may belabor my point, there is nothing that gives the impression that Lorna accepted the position on the team based on anything Jean did, which indicates, as stated in the issue, that she wanted to be a member of the team to begin with.
    It’s very clear that Lorna wanted to be on the team.

    Everyone wanted Lorna to be on the team: Krakoans, Jean and Lorna herself.

    Is someone actually arguing that she didn't???

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I know you’re not arguing this, and it is clear that she had good intentions. Furthermore, I understand why people have criticized her for going with Lorna’s initial inclination instead of her subsequent response. However, some people are completely mischaracterizing what was done, which I am not okay with.
    Me neither.

    But it doesn’t change the fact that Jean did alter what Lorna would have said, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I’m all for having objective and logical discussions in which we each analyze the behaviors and intentions of characters, just as long as the intended context as setup by the writers and editors is taken into consideration. Again, I am not saying you’re doing this, but I’ve noticed some people have a tendency of decontextualizing certain scenes, or even changing what happens in those scenes, in order to more convincingly tear down certain characters.
    Yes. It’s the haters' (and not only Jean’s, though Jean’s are vicious) favourite tactic.

    There’s no point in arguing with a hater, though. They refuse to see the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I’m sorry, but I won’t have any of that, especially when it comes to Jean. I will call it out every single time I see it.
    That’s your prerogative. :)

  5. #935
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    She didn't force her long term, but she momentarily tipped the scale in the candidacy, which isn't fair to candidates who didn't second guess themselves at least for this inaugural election. It's a bad precedent even if we try and say she was doing it to help her.
    Edited: how would it tip the scales at all?

    Lorna ended up with the lamest reason to be on the team, which for me shows that people who would vote for her would vote her no matter what she said. Possibly even if she had said "just not me".
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 11-30-2021 at 12:29 PM.

  6. #936
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Edited: how would it tip the scales at all?
    Without Jean's interference Lorna may have followed her train of thought and opted out of the election, remember all voters were linked telepathically, so they voted for a candidate that in the moment was not all in for the job while there were candidates that were but the swing towards Lorna had an effect. In that way one could say it was not a fair election.

  7. #937
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Without Jean's interference Lorna may have followed her train of thought and opted out of the election, remember all voters were linked telepathically, so they voted for a candidate that in the moment was not all in for the job while there were candidates that were but the swing towards Lorna had an effect. In that way one could say it was not a fair election.
    No, you really can't say it wasn't fair because we simply don't know the rules. What we know is that people were allowed to apply beforehand and then make their case.

    But we don't know if Lorna *could* have pulled out of the election at that moment or just abdicated of her place after the election in the favour of whoever got the 8th place.

  8. #938
    Mighty Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Without Jean's interference Lorna may have followed her train of thought and opted out of the election, remember all voters were linked telepathically, so they voted for a candidate that in the moment was not all in for the job while there were candidates that were but the swing towards Lorna had an effect. In that way one could say it was not a fair election.
    I agree, but even though I don't have a problem with the scene there is a contingent of people who will work themselves into pretzel trying to absolve Jean of any and all wrongdoing in any situation so probably best to let it die. I hope everyone here is investing in their mental health, genuinely. Some of the comments are concerning. These are fictional characters.

  9. #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    No, you really can't say it wasn't fair because we simply don't know the rules. What we know is that people were allowed to apply beforehand and then make their case.

    But we don't know if Lorna *could* have pulled out of the election at that moment or just abdicated of her place after the election in the favour of whoever got the 8th place.
    I think pulling out of an election you are part of is a sign of a free election in itself, it may be for different reasons but you cannot be forced to run if you have reason to pull away from the race in the moment. I am not going to make up a structure and mechanics of this election.At a cursory level if the voting or making up the mind to vote was in real time, then I don't see how you can say it was a free election.Assuming the canvassing for votes was done beforehand, but voting was done in that moment..it is equivalent to voting on a ballot that still has a candidate that pulled out ,but one votes thinking they are in the race, that is voter manipulation in our reality.I don't see why it's different for Krakoa.Anyway people may see it differently

  10. #940
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    I agree, but even though I don't have a problem with the scene there is a contingent of people who will work themselves into pretzel trying to absolve Jean of any and all wrongdoing in any situation so probably best to let it die. I hope everyone here is investing in their mental health, genuinely. Some of the comments are concerning. These are fictional characters.
    Yep ..Pygmalion of Greek myth would be jealous

  11. #941
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I think pulling out of an election you are part of is a sign of a free election in itself, it may be for different reasons but you cannot be forced to run if you have reason to pull away from the race in the moment. I am not going to make up a structure and mechanics of this election.At a cursory level if the voting or making up the mind to vote was in real time, then I don't see how you can say it was a free election.Assuming the canvassing for votes was done beforehand, but voting was done in that moment..it is equivalent to voting on a ballot that still has a candidate that pulled out ,but one votes thinking they are in the race, that is voter manipulation in our reality.I don't see why it's different for Krakoa.Anyway people may see it differently
    Because we don't know the actual rules, we don't know what Lorna could have done if she had really decided to pull out. We also don't know if she would have done it or not.

    It's all speculation, therefore, trying to argue what could have happened and why it's unfair is pointless.

    Which is why I prefer to discuss what is actually on panel. But when it comes to that, I don't think I have anything else to add.

  12. #942
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Because we don't know the actual rules, we don't know what Lorna could have done if she had really decided to pull out. We also don't know if she would have done it or not.

    It's all speculation, therefore, trying to argue what could have happened and why it's unfair is pointless.

    Which is why I prefer to discuss what is actually on panel. But when it comes to that, I don't think I have anything else to add.
    While we cannot know the rules or what might have been, we can clearly see that Lorna has little latitude to act voluntarily in accordance with her thoughts, with everyone telepathically synched I don't look at Lorna in isolation but as part of the entire voting network if you will so questioning the vote is logical imo.Anyway it's a Rorschach test at this point

  13. #943
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    What we do know is that, ultimately, Lorna accepted the position on the team because she wanted to. Jean didn’t force her to accept the position. Moreover, Lorna, especially in this series, has shown that she is assertive and would have stopped the proceedings or turned down the position had she really not wanted to be a member of the new team.

  14. #944
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Well I will just mention why I didnīt like the scene, I didnīt like Jean rewriting Lornaīs answer without her permission when she could have easily just ask her why she changed her mind and encourauge her to give it a chance, like the was no need for her to use her telepathy in this case, also Lorna was not given the same chance Sunfire or Jean had to explain her reasons for wishing to be on the team and now itīs suggested she had doubts and wasnīt so sure, which is weird because by the way she talked with Banshee it looked like this vote was of interest to her and him and that they had an actual friendly competence to get elected, especially Seanīs "You won cleanly" which suggested there was an actual speech by Lorna to convince other mutants to vote for her, instead we are left with just "Pick me" which doesnīt serve to tell us whereīs Lornaīs head at and the "Pick me" part is not even her words now, itīs Jeanīs. So yes I didnīt like this scene at all. Like we donīt even need to overcomplicate this, I donīt think Jean is "evil" or "manipulative" or has an agenda for acting like this, I just think this was weird, unnecesary and ooc from what we know of them and the vote itself.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 11-30-2021 at 11:00 PM.
    "To the X-men then, who donīt die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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  15. #945
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Well I will just mention why I didnīt like the scene, I didnīt like Jean rewriting Lornaīs answer without her permission when she could have easily just ask her why she changed her mind and encourauge her to give it a chance, like the was no need for her to use her telepathy in this case, also Lorna was not given the same chance Sunfire or Jean had to explain her reasons for wishing to be on the team and now itīs suggested she had doubts and wasnīt so sure, which is weird because by the way she talked with Banshee it looked like this vote was of interest to her and him and that they had an actual friendly competence to get elected, especially Seanīs "You won cleanly" which suggested there was an actual speech by Lorna to convince other mutants to vote for her, instead we are left with just "Pick me" which doesnīt serve to tell us whereīs Lornaīs head at and the "Pick me" part is not even her words now, itīs Jeanīs. So yes I didnīt like this scene at all. Like we donīt even need to overcomplicate this, I donīt think Jean is "evil" or "manipulative" or has an agenda for acting like this, I just think this was weird, unnecesary and ooc from what we know of them and the vote itself.
    I totally understand this. In hindsight, it isn’t a well-written scene. Duggan could’ve had Jean do what she did and still given Lorna a speech.

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