Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Grinning Soul]

My family loved to see those shows together and I still love them :D

I loved the light-heartness of the shows and how smart and naughty the females leads were. They were so entertaining! :)

Plus: magic! :)

[Grinning Soul]

https://www.deviantart.com/psychedel...cott-892980786

Hawt in every way! :P

Thanks for sharing, Juan. :)

[Lucyinthesky]

Something like that would have improved the story a lot. And it would be so easy to add. Two thought bubbles would do the job.

I think that ideas was partially there so yes this was a job for the thought bubbles, we already talked about them, I know but they are such a great narrative tool, we could have known with them what was Scott thinking for example and they just made Ororo look so badass on Sword without the need for her doing much. I hope they get included more in comic narrative.

In an age in which all that matters is power feats, stripping Scott of his tactical genius is a nerf.

Agreed before it was a characteristic but this actually has become one of his superpowers, sometimes even more than his optic blats. I guess we all want or like when our faves are shown powerful but this needs to happen with the character work as well, or else they begin to lose the most important part of themselves imo.

So even if nothing else was breaking the characterÂ’s internal logic (which is my actual issue), why would any writer nerf him???

I get the feeling they don´t see it nerf him but more like he´s not the center of the story at the moment, like he used to be some years ago, so they don´t think nearly as much about his motivations, logic and way of thinking. Even so, I think they can do better than having him make jokes when it´s totally not the place for it, given his position,story and character and I say this as someone who enjoys humor and jokes a lot.

I think so too. When I don’t like a story, I try to confront my views with positive perspectives. I really try to consider other views and be fair. But this issue with Scott just keeps feeling more and more bitter because itÂ’s ongoing and ongoing-ly unjustifiable.

I think it will get better but yes I can see how frustrating this can be because we don´t know the plans and we are not even sure the writers even notice what´s bothering us in their handling of the character but I think Scott leadership role will win in the end.

I really liked GillenÂ’s work in X-Men and Generation Hope. But when I was told of his plans for X-menÂ… well, letÂ’s just say I was happy he was moved to another project.

So I donÂ’t know how I feel about it now.

What plans? I didn´t about them and would like to know.

Still, this is a completely different era imo so even if he had those plans I believe he´s going to have to completely change them and we don´t even know which characters he´s going to be writting or how will the story look post inferno, so I am hopeful he will do a good job with the characters he ends with. He brought some really good ideas to the table and I hope he does so again so to see him along with Ewing and Duggan makes me hopeful for the future of the franchise.

WaitÂ… being the CC wasnÂ’t a 24/7 job? That would actually explain a lot!

lol I was going to say yes but he looked so relaxed cleaning the dishes, talking with Jean about the plants at their house and being worried over kid cable that I think he had way more free time that he was used to and they were on Krakoa so there was a lot of other mutants who could serve as support for any mission but this is completely different to the situation they are now at the X-men, they do need to be at the top of their game.

This is my serious answers, my not so serious answer is that he has been enjoying the Krakoan tea so much is hard for him to let it go a little but he has bad incluences around him, side eyes Mags.

Oh, God, ToM… What an embarrassing bookÂ… As a Mag’s fan, dear, how are you stomaching it?

Thinking it will be done eventualy and it´s still better than Morrison´s take of him lol. Also I am quite aware that while is fair for us Magneto fans to complain, he has not been a mistreated character this era and even he will be on Inferno at the same time he´s on ToM so I can ignore one and put attention to the other. He has become a little bit of a writers pet this era so I don´t want to abuse it, I won´t complain, I love getting good writting and storylines for him so I can stomach the not so good or plain awful ones, ToM is doing some good things for other characters so I can have that and forget everything else it does with my fave, but yes, it´s hard sometimes. The only thing that´s bothering me is what it´s doing to Magnus and Lorna relationship because it took them years to get where they are now and I would hate that a bad take of them to push everything back but even in this case Lorna is appearing on Duggan´s X-men title so there´s hope any damage can be healed eventually.

As you said, we need to inject some positivity to when he see something we don´t like, else, why would we be buying and reading something we hate? So far the only writer that has managed to make me stop from getting something about Mags and the X-men has been Morrison and I am not quite there yet.

Yeah. Scott needs an intervention: no more Krakoa tea for him! Give it to Mags instead.

Lol I honestly don´t think Scott is too far gone, he just needs less tea and more reality and get in contact with his own leadership instincts, even Cap has had leadership crisis sometimes, so Scott just needs time and more writer focus on him. I would love to see him do his thing and develop a "Second Coming" level of plan to take down Evolutionary.

About Mags, did you know it´s kind of canon he drinks to calm himself down? Claremont himself wrote a little scene of him being really, really upset with Moira and Charles, for actually valid reasons this time lol, that he went to confront them and just before he started talking/shouting, use his powers, he went right to the table when there was whisky, that Moira had been drinking :P ,so he knew he needed it before he snapped lol so yes, my boy needs a little more of whatever he´s been drinking on Krakoa to deal with ToM and Onslaught revelation, at least that´s what I am hopping.

You actually meant it as a joke?

Even better, my friend!

Thank you, I am not so good at jokes myself but I have my moments, it´s a shame because I love humour and it´s a great coping mechanism.

She’s clearly not Logan: Logan would have got much more panel time.
Look, I want every character to be written as accurately and compellingly as possible because even when theyÂ’re not my favourites, theyÂ’re someoneÂ’s favourite.
I hate it when male characters are reduced to the role of romantic interests only, but I can imagine the role reversal is too infrequent for people to spot it right away. But when itÂ’s done to a female itÂ’s mind-boggling: how can you explain that a writer doesnÂ’t identify this problem in 2021?

I don´t think it´s a problem of the year but more of perception, imo it´s not only the fact she´s Synch love interest the thing not working with Laura. She just not getting any kind of characterization besides some battle scenes and I think that´s worse. Duggan needs to get into her head and show her pov to make up for it imo as you said, for her fans but also because that´s good characterization and helps to tell the story, I sometimes miss the 90´s in that everybody on the team got at least one scene per issue where we could see what was going on and Duggan is actually good at that but I get the feeling he feels like he has to do more plot than character work at the moment, like Hickman does and it´s a shame because character work is one of his big strengts as a writer and he should made more use of it.

CanÂ’t we have something in between the “strong, independent/empowered woman” and the “wallpaper girlfriend” tropes?
This drains my energy… *sigh*

Yes I get what you are saying, I think sometimes is hard for writers to find a balance, females are often love interests, the strong woman who doesn´t need any mans help, the femme fatale or the mother and some just don´t get that one woman character can be all this at the same time, in the proper circunstance and story plot point.

Yeah. I think he has potential and I want to become a fan of his, you know? But I need more.Regardless of my personal preferences, he’s in *the* flagship now. He’s been around for decades and this is the perfect opportunity to finally let him shine. I hope Duggan doesnÂ’t waste it.

Yes the more part is ususally the problem, Sunfire has a great character visual but most writers don´t get his motivations so he´s often just there for the ride, AoA actually managed to do a great subplot with him, his fight with Apocalypse was personal, he was brave, self sacrificial and a great support for his teammates, he´s often written as if he doesn´t care for others in the main timeline so other characters have to "teach him" to care which I see as false, if he didn´t care he would have never joined the X-men in the first place.Writers just need to try to write him as a person, not a character that just looks cool to have around for his visual power.

It’s the word we need to get rid of.

Formula: monster of the week. Fight. Eat with locals. Cut to the villains' machinations. The end.

3 out 3 so far. It amazes me how insightful that friend was.

Agreed completely.

[Lucyinthesky]

I loved the light-heartness of the shows and how smart and naughty the females leads were. They were so entertaining!

Plus: magic!

Yes I loved them too a lot and I loved everytime Endora visited her Daughter,gold everytime.

Hawt in every way! :P

Thanks for sharing, Juan.

Calm down Soul, if we are patient maybe Duggan will show up what happened after Scott and Jean were done with the "noble game" :P

[Grinning Soul]

I think that ideas was partially there so yes this was a job for the thought bubbles, we already talked about them, I know but they are such a great narrative tool, we could have known with them what was Scott thinking for example and they just made Ororo look so badass on Sword without the need for her doing much. I hope they get included more in comic narrative.

Yes. But narrative boxes are okay. Thought bubbled? Nope!

I don’t get the logic. :D

Agreed before it was a characteristic but this actually has become one of his superpowers, sometimes even more than his optic blats. I guess we all want or like when our faves are shown powerful but this needs to happen with the character work as well, or else they begin to lose the most important part of themselves imo.

Here’s how I see it: super tactician is part of his powerset, but it’s even more important to who he is a character. Because unlike a mutant power that is something from his genes, this is something that comes from the way he thinks, so it’s more much defining of his personality.

I was just putting in terms that people might understand - especially in this age of feats - since they don’t seem to understand character personality and why you can’t write its opposite without character development.

I wrote this to a friend this week: character development should *not* be an interpretation!

I don’t get why this isn’t obvious to more people.

I get the feeling they don´t see it nerf him but more like he´s not the center of the story at the moment, like he used to be some years ago, so they don´t think nearly as much about his motivations, logic and way of thinking. Even so, I think they can do better than having him make jokes when it´s totally not the place for it, given his position,story and character and I say this as someone who enjoys humor and jokes a lot.

Not being the centre of the story is no excuse for bad characterization.

Look, I love humour and I truly, honestly believe you can use Scott as the comic relief. But that doesn’t mean you need to make him *the* joke. So how could you do that?

1) Use Scott’s actual humour when appropriate. Contrary to believe, he *does* have a sense of humour. But it’s not this goofy stuff we’re getting.

2) Make Scott either completely miss a joke because he’s really focused or have him make a joke that most people don’t understand because his humour is very peculiar. Both of those possibilities introduce humour *and* contribute to good characterization.

3) Use the fact that he is stiff and serious and self-conscious to create the humour, by making a character or situation that is the opposite interact with him.

An example of this type of humour: in the film Kindergarten Cop they get a big, tough looking guy like Arnold Schwarzenegger and put him to interact with children. I’m not suggesting that Scott is like his character at all. I’m talking about the contrast creating the humour.

--

What I’m saying is I love humour and the humour in itself is not the problem. It only becomes a problem when is at expense of characterization.

I think it will get better but yes I can see how frustrating this can be because we don´t know the plans and we are not even sure the writers even notice what´s bothering us in their handling of the character but I think Scott leadership role will win in the end.

I hope so. We’ll see. But I think it will be another instance of telling and not showing.

What plans? I didn´t about them and would like to know.

Still, this is a completely different era imo so even if he had those plans I believe he´s going to have to completely change them and we don´t even know which characters he´s going to be writting or how will the story look post inferno, so I am hopeful he will do a good job with the characters he ends with. He brought some really good ideas to the table and I hope he does so again so to see him along with Ewing and Duggan makes me hopeful for the future of the franchise.

Well… My worry is not that he’d try to re-enact the exact plans. My worry is that he has the mind who conceived those plans. Let’s talk about the plans and let me try to explain what I mean.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/kier...d-write-x-men/

It was only recently that a friend told me about it and I was frankly appalled. Since then, I had the chance to think about it better and here's where my thoughts are so far:

1) Let's take the premise that this would be part of a tv series where the first season would start with M Day and the last episode would end with Emma going full villain.

Could this work? Yes. If it was brilliantly-- no. Masterfully executed.

Anything less than that? It would feel like Game of Thrones.

The question is, could Gillen pull this off? I think he's talented but I don't think he could. I think writers and artists work with very difficult schedule in comic books and that alone - not to mention every kind of interference from editorial and corporate - would make it hard. But there's also a matter of skill as a writer.

I think very few writers of any kind (not just comic book writers) could pull writing a story like this off. I don't think at the top of his game Claremont could, for instance. That's how difficult I think it would be. Because it’s really hard to make your audience feel rewarded instead of betrayed with an ending like this, after years of investment.

The shorter the story, the easier it is to pull this off. And when Gillen joined the X-Men that had already been a very long story.

2) But here's the main problem: this is *not* a tv series with an actual ending.

And I think a writer has to understand the medium they're working with. Heroic Comic Books are a continuous, never-ending story.

You simply must *not* write a story in which the hero (Scott) becomes a "bad guy", wins the day, and then is betrayed by the anti-hero (Emma) turned back to villainy.

I don't think I need to explain why. When you think in these terms, it's pretty self-evident, isn't it?

--

Now, I don't want to judge Gillen because those were very preliminary plans. They could have changed drastically if he had thought about it a bit more.

At the same time, hell yeah: it worries me that he’d even entertain or talk about it later because it shows he might not understand the medium. And that could carry over to the next stories he'll write for the X-Men.

When you write for an ongoing story like that, when someone else will still be writing these characters, you *need* to understand that those characters are not your toys. Get them from the shelf, play with them, make it fun, but give them back in the same condition you found them.

Character development is one (good) thing. Breaking the toys or defacing them is another.

[Grinning Soul]

lol I was going to say yes but he looked so relaxed cleaning the dishes, talking with Jean about the plants at their house and being worried over kid cable that I think he had way more free time that he was used to and they were on Krakoa so there was a lot of other mutants who could serve as support for any mission but this is completely different to the situation they are now at the X-men, they do need to be at the top of their game.

This is my serious answers, my not so serious answer is that he has been enjoying the Krakoan tea so much is hard for him to let it go a little but he has bad incluences around him, side eyes Mags.

To your serious answer: maybe if he had focused on the CC job better, Krakoa would have been attacked less?

To your not so serious answer: do you think Mags is his tea-dealer? :P

Thinking it will be done eventualy and it´s still better than Morrison´s take of him lol. Also I am quite aware that while is fair for us Magneto fans to complain, he has not been a mistreated character this era and even he will be on Inferno at the same time he´s on ToM so I can ignore one and put attention to the other. He has become a little bit of a writers pet this era so I don´t want to abuse it, I won´t complain, I love getting good writting and storylines for him so I can stomach the not so good or plain awful ones, ToM is doing some good things for other characters so I can have that and forget everything else it does with my fave, but yes, it´s hard sometimes. The only thing that´s bothering me is what it´s doing to Magnus and Lorna relationship because it took them years to get where they are now and I would hate that a bad take of them to push everything back but even in this case Lorna is appearing on Duggan´s X-men title so there´s hope any damage can be healed eventually.

Seriously now? You’re a bigger person than I am. I admit.

As you said, we need to inject some positivity to when he see something we don´t like, else, why would we be buying and reading something we hate? So far the only writer that has managed to make me stop from getting something about Mags and the X-men has been Morrison and I am not quite there yet.

Not a fan of Morrison’s run either, so I totally get it.

But I also said that, at some point, all the little headcanons in the world can’t overcome the frustration and annoyances. I’m very close to this point. Inferno has a high chance of making me walk without looking back.

I really doubt I’ll be here next year (other than Inferno there are things I won’t be able to stomach) and, if I am, I’ll probably only be reading X-Men if Scott and Jean are still there and they’re not completely ruined at that point.

Lol I honestly don´t think Scott is too far gone, he just needs less tea and more reality and get in contact with his own leadership instincts, even Cap has had leadership crisis sometimes, so Scott just needs time and more writer focus on him. I would love to see him do his thing and develop a "Second Coming" level of plan to take down Evolutionary.

Honestly, he doesn’t need writer focus (though, as a fan, I wouldn’t mind). He just needs good characterization. Just abandon this Krakoan persona already. It never made sense to begin with, it was never presented as real character development. Drop it like it’s hot and write the real Scott Summers again. I’ll gladly pretend it never happened if it means I get my hero back.

About Mags, did you know it´s kind of canon he drinks to calm himself down? Claremont himself wrote a little scene of him being really, really upset with Moira and Charles, for actually valid reasons this time lol, that he went to confront them and just before he started talking/shouting, use his powers, he went right to the table when there was whisky, that Moira had been drinking :P ,so he knew he needed it before he snapped lol so yes, my boy needs a little more of whatever he´s been drinking on Krakoa to deal with ToM and Onslaught revelation, at least that´s what I am hopping.

Yep. And I think it is something that fits the character for many reasons, actually. :)

The joke about the tea was that if Mags was on Scott’s tea, he would’ve been so much more chilled in ToM. His characterization would’ve suffered less, even though it would still be horrible.

Thank you, I am not so good at jokes myself but I have my moments, it´s a shame because I love humour and it´s a great coping mechanism.

You actually provided a perfect example. That was actually a very Scott Summers joke, my friend!

It’s the joke of someone who sees reality for the absurdity it is and just points it out. Some people get it and it’s hilarious for them, but most people simply don’t. :)

In my headcanon, it cracks Jean up and people around her reacts with: “do you need to be a telepath to understand how *that* is supposed to be funny?” :D

I don´t think it´s a problem of the year but more of perception, imo it´s not only the fact she´s Synch love interest the thing not working with Laura.

The problem is that she’s *only* his love interest.

She just not getting any kind of characterization besides some battle scenes and I think that´s worse. Duggan needs to get into her head and show her pov to make up for it imo as you said, for her fans but also because that´s good characterization and helps to tell the story, I sometimes miss the 90´s in that everybody on the team got at least one scene per issue where we could see what was going on and Duggan is actually good at that but I get the feeling he feels like he has to do more plot than character work at the moment, like Hickman does and it´s a shame because character work is one of his big strengts as a writer and he should made more use of it.

With a few exceptions, I’ve been missing that aspect of the comic books of the 90s whenever I’ve read a comic book for the last 20 years. I kid you not.

Yes I get what you are saying, I think sometimes is hard for writers to find a balance, females are often love interests, the strong woman who doesn´t need any mans help, the femme fatale or the mother and some just don´t get that one woman character can be all this at the same time, in the proper circunstance and story plot point.

It’s particularly noticeable on a well-rounded character like Jean. :(

Yes the more part is ususally the problem, Sunfire has a great character visual but most writers don´t get his motivations so he´s often just there for the ride, AoA actually managed to do a great subplot with him, his fight with Apocalypse was personal, he was brave, self sacrificial and a great support for his teammates, he´s often written as if he doesn´t care for others in the main timeline so other characters have to "teach him" to care which I see as false, if he didn´t care he would have never joined the X-men in the first place.Writers just need to try to write him as a person, not a character that just looks cool to have around for his visual power.

I don’t want him to be portrayed as AoA Sunfire because a different portrayal is the fun of AUs.

I want 616 Sunfire to either be consistent to what he has been since his creation (while portrayed with nuance and respect) or to be further matured by the means of *actually* working on character development.

Yes I loved them too a lot and I loved everytime Endora visited her Daughter,gold everytime.

Oh my God! Yes! Endora was too great for words! :D

Calm down Soul, if we are patient maybe Duggan will show up what happened after Scott and Jean were done with the "noble game" :P

I doubt it. But I’d love to eat this particular crow.

You know what though? I bet whatever Duggan writes won’t be better than what I can imagine anyway.



But you were telling me to calm down. :P

[MarvelMaster616]

Hawt in every way! :P

Thanks for sharing, Juan.

Perfect choice of gif, my friend.

[Grinning Soul]

Perfect choice of gif, my friend. :o

Cheers! :)

[Hizashi]

Changing language for me is beyond political correctness.

I have a silly theory that behind every neutral language proposal (for Romance languages, for instance) there’s a native English speaker who can’t wrap their heads around linguistic gender!

All right, now to the serious part.

I’d heard they were thinking of calling the movie ‘The Mutants’ but I didn’t think much of it because maybe they’d start with a previous generation. Or maybe the original team (whoever they were) were only students and the name X-Men didn’t exist until they’re forced to face some threat. Maybe it would appear as the very last scene, with the reveal of their uniforms, you know, with Charles saying: “To me, my X-Men”. The End. All the comic fans have a collective nerdgasm. And it reads "the X-Men will return" as the credits start rolling.

Silly me, right? I thought the reason might be something cool like that.

But you see, I hadn’t heard of that interview Alonso had given. It really didn’t cross my mind that anymore would have a problem with the name of the franchise. I know.. silly me.

So when I heard about it some days ago, I didn’t know what to think. Was "The Mutants" part of the perception that "X-Men" is outdated? Were they really wasting time with the political correctness of the name when there’re so many more important things to discuss like how are they going to bring mutants in general and the X-Men in particular into the MCU? Would her promotion make this possibility more or less likely? You know… this general feeling of unquietness you get when you feel something isn’t right, but you can’t really put your finger on what that is.

As for the idea they want to distance themselves from the Fox movies… I don’t buy it either. It doesn’t make any marketing sense, as it doesn’t make any marketing sense to call the group any other thing.

Your first point about language is actually where I think latinx came from, I've never met a native speaker who ever uses that word.

Yeah, the name thing is probably nothing but this, a silly little news thing, is as far as it should go. The MCU can't afford to mess this up.

It’s hard when you speak more than one because sometimes you want to express something in one language but they just don’t have that saying or that structure. That’s a good example of English expressions I’d like to exist in every language.

Another one? “Take for granted”.

I notice it all the time when I try to use an English idiom with my parents and there's no clean translation.

The problem is that their decisions impact everyone else.

And there's the rub, you know? I don't know how far either side should push, public health versus individual autonomy.

I’ll translate it to English. Can you convert it from metric to imperial? ‘Cause I’m never really sure which is the appropriate units you guys use.

Somehow this also seems like the appropriate thread to share recipes. Let’s call this section “Scott and Jean get experimental in the kitchen”.

Cooking, people. There're just cooking. Take your minds of the gutter!

If food is the end product, I'll do it. And if this is our plan I'll need to get more recipes.

Oh, that’s a good one. Marinated in arrogance and served like the hot mess it is.

Sorry, the jelly is hungry.

Stop thinking of food, jelly!

I have a strong stomach, but not strong enough for that...

But Scott is your spirit animal, so you meant a part of this joke! Don’t think I don’t see it from behind my visor!

Haha, it's true, you got me.

Yep!

And a rare product nowadays.

It's why I still hold that Snapshot one-shot in such high regard.

*Sigh* I know, my friend. I know…

But it's like this point of view is blasphemy or something!

Have you met the internet? There is a parcel of it right here, in these forums.

Don't get me wrong, I can be pretty cynical myself, and yet I can't stop hoping for better.

At this point, I’m afraid even Orchis will disappoint.

It's gonna be very difficult to pull off, and I actually find Orchis as a whole better than Nimrod. I don't find him amusing or intimidating.

Maybe we just save our money?

Good call, better for our health too.

Same. It’s like insects. I always feel bad when I kill them and I only kill the ones that can become an infestation. The others I try to cup and put them outside.

Well, you're more merciful than I am. Cobra Kai.

I can imagine. Do you take a little disinfectant spray with you?

Oh yeah, I even have sunscreen and a change of clothes. Gotta be prepared.

There will be an event with the two (ugh) Daredevils soon. So I’m guessing he’ll be out of jail, at least. I wonder if he’ll become a fugitive or if the next writer will just completely ignore this mess like they did with Shadowland.

Did you see that Typhoid Mary is running around in a Daredevil t-shirt or something?

I agree!!!

This really should be the place to put a critical eye on their interactions in the book.

Yep. How many we have proposed here already when we’re not even brainstorming?

Gotta be at least a dozen that could work as mini-series. If continuity is gonna be ignored everywhere else, they should really just give us this one.

It is. And it sucks!

Yeah. The point is that we’re likely to be extending this pandemic yet again by rendering our vaccines less effective.

Well, people smarter than me are handling this at least.

Oh, damn… I’ll have to google search, then.

Yeah, this is a family show folks.

So I’ll *have* to have more ice cream?

In the name of science, yes: I’ll do the sacrifice!

We expect prompt reports!

And they say girls can’t be funny! Take that, world!

Is your niece the kind of you kid you find funny, though, or does anyone finds her funny?

For real: I’ve started writing down the stuff my partner hears wrong (and what I actually said). I expect it will only get funnier as we get older.

I think she's hilarious, but she gets everyone laughing. Admittedly, she's not always funny on purpose, but neither am I.

Is it more common for first-borns?

I’m very square too. I joke about drinking because I love alcohol, but I very rarely drink, really. I mean, do I need to say it? That champagne is still in the fridge. It’s really not a joke!

Well, see, my sister is actually older than me, but she was the princess, she got away with everything. Total party girl, and I would get dragged along to be designated driver, etc. I saw enough drunk people to put me off, I'll have a beer or two very rarely on special occasions.

I'm thinking your spirit animal was cultivated.

They do. And on an unrelated subject, that’s why I think those first years in a character’s life are so important. Because that also seems to be the case for real people.

Life imitating art and vice versa.

[Hizashi]

Waves the wand. Blows birthday candles. Throws a coin in a fountain - nay, throws all of them. And adds one of those:



You think that will do it? Or should I get a genie costume too? :P



'Cause I can always get a Jeannie one too. Of the red, sashed variety if you get what I mean. :P

Was it another one of my fever dreams or did Jean actually wear that?

[Hizashi]

Yes I have the head canon that he actually is completely aware and he was using the old trick of the Troyan horse that´s so like him. Evolutionary is complicated and simple at the same time, he seese himself as the main scientist of the world and the universe so he plays around as if he was in his lab and even the times he does try to help is most probably done as a way to introduce a "variable" to his big experiment. He doens´t see himself as human anymore.

Not at all, I also miss to see this side of Scott, even his main fights on Krakoa like X of Swords or Empyre didn´t show off his skills as a leader so yes,we definitely need Duggan to get him back into leadership mode.

That´s completely fair and criticism is always good to get a balance of the perception of the story.

Hopefully with Kieron Gillen back we will see a comeback of main X-men leader Scott. he did interesting things with him and Sinister.



At this point I think he has been sharing his Whisky as well if so, bad Erik, Scott now has a 24/7 job mister, stop trying to distract him, I would take his whisky away from him too but I think he needs more of it to calm down on ToM and who knows what the man is going to do on Inferno, so no tea for Scott, all the Tea and Whisky for Mags. lol

I did meant it as a joke thanks I am glad you liked my weird humor.Love you Maggie Smith image.

She´s not a favorite of mine either but even I can see she´s not being well written, Laura is not Logan and Duggan needs to remember this.

Yes but I was kind of expecting this, he´s not really been a very explored character imo, his country always has been important for him, nothing bad about that, he doesn´t have to change his love for his country for a love of Krakoa, he can just appreciate both and try to do his due for the whole world, I think he´s mostly always been like this. Sadly, while his powers look great, he has suffered from cronic lack of character exploration for years, I meet him when he was part of the X-men from AoA and while I know they are two different characters, I hope some writer in the future can inject him with that kind of characterization again.

formulaic is the word we need to bring the unexpected to this title asap and I know Duggan can do it.

Good to see yah back in here. I miss that Scott, he's never been as strong as the others but there's a reason he still stands shoulder to shoulder with them.

As far as the team goes, building Scott and Jean up can only be a good thing, and that holds true for the other characters.

[Grinning Soul]

Your first point about language is actually where I think latinx came from, I've never met a native speaker who ever uses that word.

Yeah, the name thing is probably nothing but this, a silly little news thing, is as far as it should go. The MCU can't afford to mess this up.

Why not just call it “Latin”? That’s already an English, genderless word. And English speakers already deal with saying the language is Spanish and the person is Spanish. And Spanish is a live language! Latin isn’t. How often do you talk about the language Latin instead of people whose native language is a Romance one? And you can still specify they're not the Europeans, Africans or Asian ones by calling them Latin Americans.

Latinx is so stupid - particularly when you consider that they people the word refers to hates it - it hurts my brain!

You have no idea what they’re trying to impose for Portuguese. It’s madness.

As for the name X-Men being outdated… Call me crazy, but I see language as a tool to convey meaning. Using "men" to describe a group that *includes* women was never meant to be derogatory or demeaning to them. We can't equate that to the n-word, for instance, that was meant to humiliate and oppress. So how can we be so flippant about wanting to change language that - again - is already inclusive and non-harmful? We'll be just impoverishing the language, by removing possible meanings of words. "Men" doesn't only mean the plural of "man", after all!

While I made jokes about how Romance languages are sexist, I've never consider changing them, 'cause, you know it's a charming quirk. It was never "meant" to diminish women. And even if it had some historical sexism attached to it, that's not the case nowadays anyway. Latin women are some of the most decisive, strong women there are, even in the sexist countries where they live.

So, really... what's this sh** about? 'Cause I don't get it.

I notice it all the time when I try to use an English idiom with my parents and there's no clean translation.

Same happens with other languages too when you’re speaking in English. It’s fascinating to think that a people found something was important enough to create a way of expressing it efficiently and other people didn’t. But they found something else that they needed to be evocative, so they created an idiom for that instead. :)

And there's the rub, you know? I don't know how far either side should push, public health versus individual autonomy.

I understand how you feel, Hiz. But this is a feeling.

Bring this to the most basic levels of civility and *think* about it.

Society exists under the idea that a person’s right ends where the other person’s begins. That means that the freedom of someone cannot inflict on the right to live of someone else.

It is really that simple and that dispassionate.

Denying that is saying that someone’s freedom should be regarded as more important than someone’s life.

If food is the end product, I'll do it. And if this is our plan I'll need to get more recipes.

That would be awesome, but you’re already so busy. Please, don’t.

(Though I’d still love the tamales recipe if you mom don’t mind sharing).

I meant to ask if you could convert the units for your mom, in case she’d like to cook any of the recipes. Not for every recipe I share here.

I’ll translate and leave everything in metric and whoever wants to try it out can throw it on goggle really quickly. For me it’s harder because I often don’t know which unit to use. For instance, you guys have different types of ounces. :P

I have a strong stomach, but not strong enough for that...

I used to have a strong stomach, but I don’t anymore.

My real stomach was stronger than my methaphorical one. It kind of got inverted. Mmm… I wonder if that’s a correlation. Oh, yes: it’s called ageing. :P

Haha, it's true, you got me.

This visor is made for shooting and that’s just what it’ll do! :P

In case the song is just too old to be an immediate reference and the joke is completely lost:



That’s a great song for cooking, actually! :D

It's why I still hold that Snapshot one-shot in such high regard.

It’s quite good indeed considering the current trend in heartless comics.

But it's like this point of view is blasphemy or something!

Humans can be so tiresome. That’s why I prefer dogs. :P

But yeah, I mean… Prejudice is prejudice and it isn’t contained in the box of minorities.

I watched a video (I won’t link it here because he’s speaking in Portuguese) of a boy from Mozambique talking about how sad it is to see that racism is so ingrained in the natives that they let white people pass them when they’re standing in a line. In their own country. Usually this happens with white tourists who feel extremely uncomfortable with it because they see how wrong it is.

This has nothing to do with being a minority in that country. It has to do with how damaging internalised racism is. Sometimes I think those SJWs - as well-intended as they might be - are too ignorant to be able to consider the bigger pictures, especially if it escapes their immediate reality. Yet, they have an influence on global scale.

But it’s hard to even try to reach them and say: “the world is bigger than your perspective, so maybe don’t be so adamant about it, maybe listen to other people before assigning them the label “bigot” just because they don’t agre with you”.

Don't get me wrong, I can be pretty cynical myself, and yet I can't stop hoping for better.

I don’t think you’re cynical, Hiz. What you’re describing is someone who can see the state of things and yet hopes it will improve. Truly cynical people resign to the bleakness and sometimes get so attached to it, they strive to preserve it.

It's gonna be very difficult to pull off, and I actually find Orchis as a whole better than Nimrod. I don't find him amusing or intimidating.

Just between the two of us? I find Orchis extremely boring.

Good call, better for our health too.

Inferno might be the catalyst for me. I’m expecting I’ll hate it. I’ll try to read it with neutral eyes, but after Onslaught, if it doesn’t end with Krakoa in flames - which I’m sure it won’t - I’ll probably be too angry to keep reading anything. With the possible exception of X-Men just because I really love Jean and Scott.

Well, you're more merciful than I am. Cobra Kai.

The only insects I like are bees. But the other ones… well, they’re living creatures, right? I wouldn’t want to be killed just because I crossed paths with the apex predator of the planet, especially if they're not even going to eat me.

I know. I know. I’m crazy. :P

Oh yeah, I even have sunscreen and a change of clothes. Gotta be prepared.

You get a fist bump too because of our shared spirit animal. :P

Did you see that Typhoid Mary is running around in a Daredevil t-shirt or something?

Where’s my Dark Phoenix costume???

This really should be the place to put a critical eye on their interactions in the book.

Yeah! Tell them, Hiz: we can be totally objective in an appreciation thread! :P

Seriously, though: compared to other threads, we rock. :)

Gotta be at least a dozen that could work as mini-series. If continuity is gonna be ignored everywhere else, they should really just give us this one.

And it doesn’t even need to ignore continuity: you can tell “hidden” stories, their minds can be plucked to an AU again, or have some good old time travel and bring them back 1 second after they left. In an universe as crazy as Marvel’s, the sky is the limit-- Nope. The sky is *not* the limit! :D

Well, people smarter than me are handling this at least.

Politicians are handling this. They are *not* smarter than you.

Yeah, this is a family show folks.

I meant I’ll have to look for a shop that sells the model of son I want! :P

We expect prompt reports!

I have a super easy ice-cream recipe that doesn’t need an ice-cream maker. I’ll put that on the list for the cooking section. :P

I think she's hilarious, but she gets everyone laughing. Admittedly, she's not always funny on purpose, but neither am I.

I love both intentionally funny and accidentally funny. I can’t choose which one I love the most, because intentionally funny denotes intelligence, but the accidentally funny is boosted by the unexpected factor. :D

Well, see, my sister is actually older than me, but she was the princess, she got away with everything. Total party girl, and I would get dragged along to be designated driver, etc. I saw enough drunk people to put me off, I'll have a beer or two very rarely on special occasions.

I'm thinking your spirit animal was cultivated.

You mean I have a snobbish Scott Summers as my spirit animal? :P

Life imitating art and vice versa.

Great art does that indeed! :)

[Grinning Soul]

Was it another one of my fever dreams or did Jean actually wear that?

Mojo made a reference about it in the 90s cartoon by calling the "show" with Logan and Jean as "I dream of Jeannie". I mean, how could they pass on that joke? :D

I was referring to the Dark Phoenix costume, though: if using magic won't do the trick, then maybe threatening them with cosmic flames, might. :P

But I love those mash-up ideas. I once wrote Jean being dragged into a psychic conference by that brat Quentin Quire and arriving there wearing a Jessica Rabbit outfit. Everyone was pissed with their outfits, but she quite liked hers, actually! :D

So now you gave me an idea for another render, 'cause I bet that ruby red hair would look amazing against the pink outfit of genie. :D

[Lucyinthesky]

To your serious answer: maybe if he had focused on the CC job better, Krakoa would have been attacked less?

Exactly, even Magik and Mags commented they were attacked three times in three months on Empyre, so Scott was very relaxed but it wasn´t just his fault, Magik is also a GC and X-force was more interested in solving their own messes, so yes security has not been good on Krakoa and I agree Scott would not have allowed it.

To your not so serious answer: do you think Mags is his tea-dealer?

Imo he totally thinks it will do Scott good to relax given how he was with Utopia and with all of them back then, he was quite demanding but he didn´t took in consideration that compared to him Scott is usually relaxed so more relaxation is not good for him lol he needs to keep his tea and whisky to himself and maybe he would not have been like he´s on ToM.

Seriously now? You’re a bigger person than I am. I admit.

Lol I guess I just think I don´t really have a lot of control over it so I have the choice between accepting it with philosophy or stay mad for the next three months with every new issue and I need to save my energy for other things.

Not a fan of Morrison’s run either, so I totally get it.

Thanks

But I also said that, at some point, all the little headcanons in the world can’t overcome the frustration and annoyances. I’m very close to this point. Inferno has a high chance of making me walk without looking back.

Yes I understand this.

I really doubt I’ll be here next year (other than Inferno there are things I won’t be able to stomach) and, if I am, I’ll probably only be reading X-Men if Scott and Jean are still there and they’re not completely ruined at that point.

I think Inferno will change the status quo a little bit as well as bring other circunstances for the characters and my guess is Duggan will keep using Jean and Scott because they formed the team so I would suggest to wait until Inferno is done and see if you like anything you see if not, then it´s good to take a break sometimes or just go enjoy other content.

Honestly, he doesn’t need writer focus (though, as a fan, I wouldn’t mind). He just needs good characterization. Just abandon this Krakoan persona already. It never made sense to begin with, it was never presented as real character development. Drop it like it’s hot and write the real Scott Summers again. I’ll gladly pretend it never happened if it means I get my hero back

You know, I get the feeling this is the exact thing marvel will do if this Scott take doesn´t ring true to the fans and it´s noticed by sales :P and while I know Gillen can have his moments, I think he´s one of the biggest Scott´s fans around and this will have a positive effect on his overall characterization given how closely all the X-writers are working right now. Another writer I would love to see tackling him would be Ewing. I just love his character work all around and he always tries his best to bring the best version of the characters.

Yep. And I think it is something that fits the character for many reasons, actually.

Yes we Magneto fans know it´s serious when he doesn´t say anything and instead is just drinking when he should be angry, it means he´s either extremely angry or just kind of happy because he´s messing with somebody and it puts people around him nervous. He should be having theraphy instead of it but given this is nearly impossible, I will take this option instead.

The joke about the tea was that if Mags was on Scott’s tea, he would’ve been so much more chilled in ToM. His characterization would’ve suffered less, even though it would still be horrible.

Exactly this way at least I can blame the tea or his drinking.

You actually provided a perfect example. That was actually a very Scott Summers joke, my friend!

Thanks

It’s the joke of someone who sees reality for the absurdity it is and just points it out. Some people get it and it’s hilarious for them, but most people simply don’t.

In my headcanon, it cracks Jean up and people around her reacts with:“do you need to be a telepath to understand how *that* is supposed to be funny?”

We actually love that kind of humor here, we use it frequently so we do get it most of the time and now you just revealed another reason why Jean just can´t have enough of Scott and I completely get it, because same.

The problem is that she’s *only* his love interest.

Exactly

With a few exceptions, I’ve been missing that aspect of the comic books of the 90s whenever I’ve read a comic book for the last 20 years. I kid you not.

I believe you, I have been missing it so much that any writer who manages it on new issues becomes an instant favorite for me. It just brings so many good storylines that it´s a shame it´s not used more often.

It’s particularly noticeable on a well-rounded character like Jean.

Yes and it´s not a hard conclusion to come to and why I don´t get why those aspects are not included, Jean has shown different sides of herself during her long comic book story, to try and keep all those aspects is a good thing that should be considered, not ignored and while not perfect, I think Duggan has done better on this than Percy or Hickman imo, because she´s shown different sides of herself even if in just a subtle way and that´s the thing, Jean is subtle in her characterization, except when she´s mad or angry so most people don´t get those little changes in her temperament, for others Emma may seem more impactful because she´s a character very much "in your face" kind of thing, everything she does, it´s done with intensity but a subtle character can involve even more impact than that, when they are written showing all their different facets and experiences in cresscendo and then, they are allowed to get loose sometimes in particular instances, precisely because you are not used to see them act that way so those moments are special. I hope I made sense.

I don’t want him to be portrayed as AoA Sunfire because a different portrayal is the fun of AUs.

Agreed

I want 616 Sunfire to either be consistent to what he has been since his creation (while portrayed with nuance and respect) or to be further matured by the means of *actually* working on character development.

Nuance and character development this is exactly what he and a lot other characters could do good in getting more of.

Oh my God! Yes! Endora was too great for words!

Yes I had a lot of fun everytime she was on scene.

I doubt it. But I’d love to eat this particular crow.You know what though? I bet whatever Duggan writes won’t be better than what I can imagine anyway.
But you were telling me to calm down.

Well I definitely think you would do better with you own head canon in this instance. I am just curious to see how he would manage it.

Yes. But narrative boxes are okay. Thought bubbled? Nope!
I don’t get the logic.

I think an editor said something about letting readers to appreciate the art more and I agree, marvel has some excellent artist that make excellent work and their art is beatiful but I think we can get a balance between this and the need of the narrative to help tell the story and a big part of it is letting readers inside the characters head.

[Lucyinthesky]

Here’s how I see it: super tactician is part of his powerset, but it’s even more important to who he is a character. Because unlike a mutant power that is something from his genes, this is something that comes from the way he thinks, so it’s more much defining of his personality.
I was just putting in terms that people might understand - especially in this age of feats - since they don’t seem to understand character personality and why you can’t write its opposite without character development.I wrote this to a friend this week: character development should *not* be an interpretation!
I don’t get why this isn’t obvious to more people.

Well I usually see it as two different things, one are the feats because they are awesome to see and I in particular enjoy the feats of leadership because it involves a skill not every character has and I think it takes a certain personality to get to that level of skill. So I see it as more part of Scott´s character than as a power feat so I totally get it´s also part of character development, because it´s great to see characters come into their own as leaders in a natural way because of all the missions they have directed.

I get the appeal of the feats because it comes in handy when you want to show off how badass your fave is but imo, that would be nothing if is not done along with the character development, else you end up with a Deus ex machina and not the character you know and love, characters NEED weaknesses and challenges to advance their story imo.

Not being the centre of the story is no excuse for bad characterization.
Look, I love humour and I truly, honestly believe you can use Scott as the comic relief. But that doesnÂ’t mean you need to make him *the* joke. So how could you do that?

1) Use Scott’s actual humour when appropriate. Contrary to believe, he *does* have a sense of humour. But itÂ’s not this goofy stuff weÂ’re getting.

2) Make Scott either completely miss a joke because he’s really focused or have him make a joke that most people don’t understand because his humour is very peculiar. Both of those possibilities introduce humour *and* contribute to good characterization.

3) Use the fact that he is stiff and serious and self-conscious to create the humour, by making a character or situation that is the opposite interact with him.

An example of this type of humour: in the film Kindergarten Cop they get a big, tough looking guy like Arnold Schwarzenegger and put him to interact with children. IÂ’m not suggesting that Scott is like his character at all. IÂ’m talking about the contrast creating the humour.

--

What I’m saying is I love humour and the humour in itself is not the problem. It only becomes a problem when is at expense of characterization.

Exactly

I hope so. We’ll see. But I think it will be another instance of telling and not showing.

At this point, I will accept a telling if it gives Scott a little bit of his leadership back, then we can have the showing, it would be perfect if we get both at the same time.

Well… My worry is not that heÂ’d try to re-enact the exact plans. My worry is that he has the mind who conceived those plans. Let’s talk about the plans and let me try to explain what I mean.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/kier...d-write-x-men/

It was only recently that a friend told me about it and I was frankly appalled. Since then, I had the chance to think about it better and here's where my thoughts are so far:

1) Let's take the premise that this would be part of a tv series where the first season would start with M Day and the last episode would end with Emma going full villain.

Could this work? Yes. If it was brilliantly-- no. Masterfully executed.

Anything less than that? It would feel like Game of Thrones.

The question is, could Gillen pull this off? I think he's talented but I don't think he could. I think writers and artists work with very difficult schedule in comic books and that alone - not to mention every kind of interference from editorial and corporate - would make it hard. But there's also a matter of skill as a writer.

I think very few writers of any kind (not just comic book writers) could pull writing a story like this off. I don't think at the top of his game Claremont could, for instance. That's how difficult I think it would be. Because itÂ’s really hard to make your audience feel rewarded instead of betrayed with an ending like this, after years of investment.

The shorter the story, the easier it is to pull this off. And when Gillen joined the X-Men that had already been a very long story.

2) But here's the main problem: this is *not* a tv series with an actual ending.

And I think a writer has to understand the medium they're working with. Heroic Comic Books are a continuous, never-ending story.

You simply must *not* write a story in which the hero (Scott) becomes a "bad guy", wins the day, and then is betrayed by the anti-hero (Emma) turned back to villainy.

I don't think I need to explain why. When you think in these terms, it's pretty self-evident, isn't it?

--

Now, I don't want to judge Gillen because those were very preliminary plans. They could have changed drastically if he had thought about it a bit more.

At the same time, hell yeah: it worries me that heÂ’d even entertain or talk about it later because it shows he might not understand the medium. And that could carry over to the next stories he'll write for the X-Men.

When you write for an ongoing story like that, when someone else will still be writing these characters, you *need* to understand that those characters are not your toys. Get them from the shelf, play with them, make it fun, but give them back in the same condition you found them.

Character development is one (good) thing. Breaking the toys or defacing them is another.

You know,reading this after his take on Emma and Scott during AvX I think he already wrote a version of this, only with the phoenix force serving as an out for them and his comments about making a school and having trainess, well, that´s totally what Bendis did with Scott and Emma and yes, they were still kind of anti-heros at this point or heros in conflict with the main X-men team.

I also think this was an idea of the time, the fear that "Gasp" Scott is becoming "Magneto" someone stop him, while I as a fan was like, you know Magneto is right here right? in a very novel alliance with the X-men given this time he´s not just here to make Charles happy but because he wants to help and Scott is very much doing what he´s always done and tryng to make the best of a bad situation, so sure, I see he´s living at Asteroid M near San Francisco but other than that, I don´t see why are you saying he´s going to become Magneto, Scott is Scott and Magneto is Magneto, even a heel turn Scott would not behave like Magneto and would not do the same things he does get into and you know, having San Francisco, Utopia or even Asteroid M as mutant asylums when your people has been almost anhiliated, kind of makes sense AT THE MOMENT.

I honestly think it´s a very simplistic idea and what we got was the better version of it that made more sense for the characters, both for Scott and Emma and given Gillen admits he didn´t took this to an editor, makes me think it would not have ended the way he thought at first. Those are my two cents

Why not just call it “Latin”? That’s already an English, genderless word. And English speakers already deal with saying the language is Spanish and the person is Spanish. And Spanish is a live language! Latin isn’t. How often do you talk about the language Latin instead of people whose native language is a Romance one? And you can still specify they're not the Europeans, Africans or Asian ones by calling them Latin Americans.

Latinx is so stupid - particularly when you consider that they people the word refers to hates it - it hurts my brain!

You have no idea what they’re trying to impose for Portuguese. It’s madness.

As a Mexican and latin American, the Latinx term bothers me for two main reasons:

It´s done under the presumption that we need a new term to identify outselves that is not part of our language or identity, using an expression that comes from a completely different language, done by well meaning people that are not interested in knowing or understanding how our language actually works.

Latin American or Latinoamericano was a term decided after quite a lot of debate, because the Latin countries wanted to use a term that would serve as a point of identification for all, we have used other terms before and still do, like Iberoamerican but latin american was chosen because it´s "The term" that allows to include the Portuguesse, Spanish and French speaking nations, allowing each of them to find a point of union while keeping our differences by going back to our "romance language roots" and unity is hard to come by given our story but I just don´t have the patience to explain all of this to people who are of the oppinion that our mother language is not "inclusive enough" for their taste.

As for the name X-Men being outdated… Call me crazy, but I see language as a tool to convey meaning. Using "men" to describe a group that *includes* women was never meant to be derogatory or demeaning to them. We can't equate that to the n-word, for instance, that was meant to humiliate and oppress. So how can we be so flippant about wanting to change language that - again - is already inclusive and non-harmful? We'll be just impoverishing the language, by removing possible meanings of words. "Men" doesn't only mean the plural of "man", after all!

Agreed completely.