You posted a few minutes before I did, while I was replying to Hizashi. I posted the reply and I didn’t see yours. Sorry, I didn’t do it right away.
Well, I had the feeling Dough said something extra about it in X of Swords. He didn’t actually. The dialogue I was thinking about happens in New Mutants #13, but it’s not actually really revealing:
spoilers:end of spoilers
- Doug: I... no... I feel like I'm not pulling my weight and this... this tournament, it hasn't even begun. Everyone else is out, questing for their swords and mine... is... you. Which I suppose we're not keeping a secret anymore -- not that we were doing a good job of hiding it... But this feels like there's something deeper at play. Some Saturnyne stratagem. I mean, why me? Why you?
I'm not sure why I got this feeling that there was something there. Maybe I was actually intrigued by Saturnyne's intentions, not the Doug/Warlock/Krakoa angle... I don't know. I'm old. :D
She is a little old for that, but if that’s the idea the writers have of what adult mothers and daughters do when they’re together, I’d still take it. And it would melt my heart because I’m silly like that. :D
Yeah, we don’t really have a good word to describe it.
I didn’t get the feeling David implied Onslaught was the one who put the bug there, actually. I think one could even argue that bug comes with the Cerebro back-up…
That’s the question: is the mind in the body somewhat connected to Cerebro? We know Cerebro can’t actually make a constant, live back-up and memories are lost when death happens between the back-ups. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a form of faint connection there. Especially when you consider that the death in Otherwold affected the entire database. If the database is actually isolated this shouldn’t happen. Even considering magic in the equation.
Now, it’s possible the writers didn’t think about it at all. They just wanted the tournament to have more of a high stakes feeling to it.
Exactly: the soul is a concept that exists in the Marvel Universe. It really does exist, it’s not a matter of belief, like in our world.
And again: would the characters know they don’t have a soul? If Jean believes she’s Jean and she has all the memories of Jean and all the opinions and tastes… would she be able to tell the difference? Maybe.
I don’t know, Jeannie, maybe it’s not X-Force. Maybe your internal compass was tampered the moment you set foot in that island.
Last edited by Grinning Soul; 06-14-2021 at 01:54 AM.
We’ve seen characters acting differently after their resurrections, but I believe Domino is the most interesting case study so far.
X-Force #8:
spoilers:end of spoilers
- Colossus: Do you ever think about... another kind of sleep?
- Domino: Sure. Yeah. I could just keep swimming.
- Colossus: We could just keep swimming. And then I would go over to metal. And I would hold you and let the deep swallow us up. We'd come back new. Refreshed. Unburdened of all these scars and terrors.
- Domino: Sounds nice... but no.
- Colossus: I know it feels wrong, but there's something right on the other side of it. We could resurrect without that part of us. We wouldn't have to remember.
- Domino: But I want to remember. I need to remember.
Later, as she's dying in his arms:
- Domino: When I come back... I want to keep it all. All the pain. I want to remember everything. Do you promise me, Peter? I won't die on you unless you promise.
- Colossus: I... promise.
- Domino: Thank you.
The very next issue, in X-Force#9.
spoilers:end of spoilers
- Domino: Sage? Hair down. Out of the office. I barely recognise you.
- Sage: The... feeling is mutual.
- Domino: I'm a new woman.
- Sage: May I ask what it felt like? To be resurrected?
- Domino: It felt like... waking up with a hangover? But in a good way. Like a Saturday morning hangover, after a solid twelve hours of sleep, sun on your face, coffee brewing.
- Sage: I'm sorry to pry. But the nightmare you've been living --
- Domino: Gone. I don't know how to explain it except-- that it might as well have happened to someone else.
- Sage: Pause. You're implying your memories of South Korea have been erased?
- Domino: I'm aware of what happened, but yeah, basically. That slot in my brain is blank.
- Sage: I don't mean to be contrary, but that doesn't calculate. You told me--
- Domino: It must have been what I wanted, okay? We're supposed to choose our best selves, right? Guess I decided I didn't need all that poison inside me.
But that’s only true for the countries that recognise Krakoa. And, from the perspective of their laws, it makes a big difference.
Amnesty means everything is pardoned or not considered during a time. Diplomatic immunity is a complete different beast.
In House of X #1:
spoilers:end of spoilers
- Scott: You're a smart man, Doctor Richards. I know you know what amnesty means.
- Reed: I do. I also know that Sabretooth broke any number of laws in the last hour, including no small number of injuries to guard and high probability that some of those injuries are significant, possibly fatal. Are you really offering amnesty from that?
- Scott: It's upsetting. I know. But I'm afraid we are. New beginnings demand a wide berth.
In House of X #3:
spoilers:end of spoilers
- Judge: Enlighten me.
- Emma: Well, that's certainly the correct position to assume. What's going to happen is that you're going to surrender Mr. Creed to me.
- One of the Cuckoos: Sabretooth, Mum.
- Emma: Yes, thank you. Sabretooth. You're going to give him to me because -- in anticipation of Krakoa becoming a soverign nation -- all Krakoans on United States soil -- natural born or otherwise -- now enjoy the privilege of diplomatic immunity. A recent gift from your State Department.
So what is it? Amnesty or diplomatic immunity?
This is the definition of amnesty:
1. a general pardon, esp for offences against a government
2. a period during which a law is suspended to allow offenders to admit their crime without fear of prosecution
3. (Law) law a pardon granted by the Crown or Executive and effected by statute
In the FF/X-men mess they characterise it as diplomatic immunity as well and I think it's actually more precise if that's an ongoing privilege that mutants enjoy now.
And it's also way more bonkers that *any* country would accept it.
Some of them, maybe. Charles and Erik? I’m not so sure. They need Sinister because of the resurrection protocols.
Some of the reasons they’re epic together:
If you have read the story, you know Scott is probably stinking at that point, but our Red doesn't seem to mind. Now *that* is love! :D
This is one of the reasons why: I love Scott Summers and Jean loves him and they’re awesome together!
There were some nice Scott/Jean references in this week's X-Men Monday by AIPT. It bodes well for how these two will be portrayed in the upcoming X-Men title under Duggan. Here is a snippet of the exchange by JDW.
AIPT: OK, X-Fan marvelfan1992 asked if the idea of having Scott and Jean lead an X-Men team was developed in the early stages of Jonathan’s planning or if this was an idea that came together later on.
Jordan: Not specifically, like, “And then step 27, Scott and Jean lead the X-Men.” Like, no, not like that. I mean, I’m sure that Jonathan was like, “Well, obviously at some point we’ll have an X-Men team and the natural choice to lead would be this person, this person, or that person,” you know? But I think the reason it actually turned to the two of them — much like I’ve said this a bunch of times when we talk about the way things have developed — Jonathan’s plans shift to accommodate what everybody else is doing and to incorporate what everybody else is doing. I think that a big part of why Scott and Jean are leading the X-Men together is, well, to be fair, Jonathan started the family-oriented concept of Cyclops in his current life.
And then Gerry really ran with it in Cable. We got to see Scott and Jean as a couple — well, as parents really, and then as a couple doing stuff. And I think that the way that played out in X of Swords is what really sealed the deal as the two of them are making decisions based on the fact that their son is in danger and their moral compass is what lead them to say there needs to be an X-Men and we’re making it happen. And so I think that’s the real reason. And I think in a sense that could have just as easily, you know, if the stories of the last couple of years had gone differently, I think there could have been a version where it’s just Jean doing it, or it’s just Scott doing it, or whoever — Colossus is like, “There has to be an X-Men.”
And I mean, again, it makes sense that it’s Scott, because Jonathan put a lot of focus on Scott at the beginning of his run. And so I think in that sense, yeah, I think he always knew Scott’s going to be the one to do stuff because he’s a big deal in the history of the X-Men, but the way it happened, and the fact that it’s him and Jean together for sure is because of how it played out in X of Swords.
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More great books that I don't think I've looked at in 20 years. I've looked at them since I read the series when it first came out, but has to be near or over 20 years. I remember reading, maybe in MARVEL VISION, a mid- late 90s previews book, that a third limited series was in the plans for them. Obviously, never happened and I don't remember reading any specifics regarding what it was about. Who knows, but I do know that I loved the first 2.
I used to read people say that Lobdell didn't know how to write these 2 characters or them as a couple. If the first limited series is supposed to be getting these characters wrong, you can sign me up for getting them wrong. The guy in that limited series. THAT'S who Cyclops is supposed to be. IMO, of course.
I bet Scott takes dehydration very seriously.
There's no way of knowing, they released the book way too late so who knows what they're doing.
Maybe we're weird for not being their brand of weird.
I remember liking Waid's early stuff, I wasn't picking up single issues at the time, but I dropped the trades before he went to SF. Waid is a good writer, I think he just lost his narrative as it went on.
And yeah, it is absolutely nonsensical to make Matt a prosecutor, talk about missing the character.
Yeah, it's very complex - it should be written about with some care.
Oh yeah, seems like nearly every superhero is a vigilante and is constantly breaking the law.
I will say, I think that there are certainly some things that are universally morally wrong, that wouldn't be tolerated in any society.
Yeah, it has, we should see more of that.
Cyclops/Marvel Woman sounds good, lets make it happen Marvel!
Does it need doing?
Yes.
Then it will be done.
I really just don't want the fall to happen and be left feeling like "y'all let this happen!".
Ewing would be interesting, I read some of his Immortal Hulk and really liked it.
I'm a sucker for family/brotherhood/sibling stories, I'm guaranteed to try something if it includes that as a main hook.
Does it need doing?
Yes.
Then it will be done.
Those Cyclops/Phoenix books have amazing artwork.
Does it need doing?
Yes.
Then it will be done.
The Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix was written by Peter Milligan. Being fair, it's very centered on Essex/Sinister, actually, not really on Scott and Jean.
But I was talking about cute stuff about the couple that we could find there. :)
I don't really want to get into a discussion of how wrong later writers did/could get him, because I don't want to annoy anyone here who might disagree.
But those panels about Scott, in my opinion, represent one of the strongest core-characteristics of his: the man suffers from a number of tragedies and abuse, but he doesn't give in, he doesn't let them shape him. He manages to heal (a little crooked like a broken bone often does, and with lots of scars, sure) and remain a good person.
There's true strength in this and it's certainly something that Jean truly admires about him.
I wasn’t dehydrated. And it wasn't like I was sweating under the hot sun either. It was hot and damp, but it was during the evening. We had been standing for quite a while (because we were roleplaying) and one of the leaders of the vampires were babbling about their politics. I couldn’t have moved away (because my character had to be there) and go sit on a place with better air flow, when I felt my blood pressure dropping. I thought I could wait a bit longer because it didn’t feel too bad, actually. But, no… And that was the only time it happened. But it was super fast too. I came back almost right away.
But I’m sure Scott would have found a way to scold me! :D
It is long, but this interview gives us a better idea:
(Spoiler alert!!!!)
https://www.xplainthexmen.com/2021/0...pents-in-eden/
Everyone belongs to a brand of weird. But you have brands like Coca-Cola and Pepsi that take most of the market. :D
I liked some aspects of his run. But the overall tone started to wear me down. Frankly, though, if I had been feeling better towards Marvel comics in general, I might have endured. But I was really saturated at that point.
And, personally, when things get like that, I really have to walk away for a while and detox. I mean, the way I see it, if it’s annoying you more than entertaining (or, at least, intriguing you), there’s just no point.
I know that, right now, no matter how awesome it might be, Elektra being Daredevil *will* annoy me. So I think it’s not the right time to jump back in. But I will, eventually (because I love Matt Murdock), and I’ll probably be more fair about the writing at that point.
It is.
Either you don’t understand a thing about the character or you have a very naïve idea of the juridical system, particularly because of the way it is organised in the US, in which the public officers are elected (I don't mean to criticise the system, but having elections in mix does affect how it works).
I agree. But when we move from ethics to morals we get into a different - and even bigger - discussion. :D
And I think engaging in these considerations is a wonderful exercise even if we can’t get to a absolute answer that solves all those issues. But I can’t really expect any of that to be reflected in Marvel comics, unfortunately.
Although, I have to say, Si Spurrier seems to be considering some of those questions and translating them to his writing in a way that won't bore most readers. I'm not gushing here. I'm cautiously saying I see he's bringing some of those considerations to the table and it's needed and interesting. I'm still somewhat worried about what Kurt's conclusions will be in the end. But we'll have to see.
It won’t happen. Judging by the last X-Men Monday, Jean is stuck with Marvel Girl… :(
I’d still read Cyclops/Marvel Girl, though.
Last edited by Grinning Soul; 06-14-2021 at 11:48 PM.
Just to clarify, I'm aware that Milligan wrote this series. That's why I specifically said first limited series with Lobdell. The one with Sinister's origin was the second. At that point, Milligan really hadn't written Scott or Jean whereas Lobdell had on a regular basis.