Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Hizashi]

Attachment 111526

Just some fan art I’ve been working on to try to forget the poly triangle in the krakoa era. Scott and Jean just drinking

Very nice, I can't color my way out of a wet paper bag.

[Hizashi]

I forgot to tell you yesterday. I drank the Dr. Pepper can!

My first thought: “Oh, my God! This tastes so artificial”. But then I kept drinking and I kinda liked it. I wouldn’t buy it again if I wanted to drink cola and there was either Coke or Pepsi available, but if I’m ever in a place where I don’t trust the water and Dr. Pepper is all I can get, I won’t be afraid of buying it and not being able to drink it.

So, I’m more ready for the zombie apocalypse now! Thank you!

Oh, haha, that's nice. Have you ever read The Road by Cormac McCarthy?

Yeah… *sigh*

Well, I've got the good old X-Men comics to go through.

Mine too. So that’s why I’d speak up and annoy them, knowing it would do nothing to change their behaviour. But I’d feel horrible if something happened without my even trying.

Yeah, there's a minimum that I will do, but there's only so much I can do.

The thing is that we have to stop thinking in terms of “over here” and “over there”. The world is just too connected for that.

So far, around the world, there were 189,749,287 infections (that we know of) and 4,083,256 deaths in 1,5 years. For comparison, around 20 million military personnel died the WW2 over a period of 6 years.

Sure, it’s likely we’ll see less deaths because of the vaccines, but if we let ourselves keep getting infected, this virus will keep mutating and who knows if the next mutation won’t make the vaccines less effective again?

It takes some vision and some sacrifice, but it’s time we got together and fix this situation.

Isn't that where some herd immunity could play a role? Like, that's what the vaccines are doing right? I guess you're right about it mutating though. I don't know, I guess I hope that people do what they can because I don't want harsh mandates or enforcement measures.

I think Jean has a much more eclectic taste than Scott. She’s more emotional, right? So I think she likes whatever moves her (either physically or emotionally). I imagine she loves classical music, particularly Chopin and Debussy and also operas, particularly Puccini. I imagine she loves 80s music just because they have such a good rhythm. I imagine she likes pretty much any song where the singer sings very passionately or the melody is very emotional, that includes some cheesy rock ballads. I imagine Scott mocks her about it, but secretly loves those songs too because of her (it’s a guilty pleasure).

I talked about Scott’s taste a long time ago in his thread. I didn’t mention Johnny Cash, but I do agree he’d like him. I think he *loves* Elvis Presley, though. And other than the old romantic songs (the good ones he actually likes and the cheesy ones that are good to dance to), I think he mostly likes hard rock and progressive rock. I don’t think he enjoys many of the current songs because they tend to be so simplistic and they kinda all sound the same. I can see him grumpily pointing it out.

Maybe we should start posting some songs that we think the characters would like. What do you think?

That could be fun. And yeah, Scott would probably love Elvis. I think I'd have a tough time figuring Jean's tastes.

Yeah. That’s for sure. She was the one character who could easily die and come back. Especially because she always died in context of the Phoenix, which is a force of life and death, based on the myth of a bird that rises from its own ashes!

But *this* character is the one character that Marvel has left dead for 20+ years (if you count both deaths).

Go figure…

I've said that it could've been interesting to see the Utopia Era with Jean, but there are plenty of people who argue that Scott and Emma wouldn't have been together if that had been the case. I can see the rationale for that argument.

Tochinoshin, a.k.a. Patches in this house, is not doing that great this tournament, unfortunately. I don’t think he was ever one of the best, but he’s one of the few who isn’t Asian.

I am a person who loves technique and Hakuho is really on another level when it comes to that. The other one who has a higher level of technique is Terunofuji (a.k.a. Bandages). I haven’t watched today’s matches yet, but yesterday they were both undefeated.

And it’s the first tournament for Hakuho after a long time away dealing with injuries. So, yeah, if it continues like that, the last day will be exciting!

My friends and I have regular movie nights (I think we're watching Whiplash next and then War Games) and sport nights, MMA and boxing mostly, but maybe we can add this occasionally.

Exactly. I assume people are trying to be nice. The world needs more of that so I think we should encourage that behaviour, not discourage it.

Yep, the world would be a better place if we all had this attitude, I try to help my sister raise her kids that way. My oldest niece will make adults coffee and her siblings cocoa pretty regularly, she's a good kid.

Yeah. And it matches what he said about the psychic rapport, right?



I think Jean’s gentleness and subtlety have always had a comforting, reassuring effect on his mood. She’s warm, inviting and accepting and that works like a charm for a guy like him.

Also - and I don’t mean it’s a bad thing at all - it’s kind of a masculine trait, isn’t it?

It varies from man to man, of course, but there is something about the way humans feel that comes from our more primitive instincts. In nature, females are more valuable individuals for the species. Meaning, you need less males for the species to survive (of course, too few of them and you’ll get in trouble because of genetic variance, but you get what I mean). And that leads some men to feel special, validated, energised (as you put it) for having being chosen by a woman (and much, much more when they they truly love their partner). It’s a very primitive and sub-conscious process, but it’s proof that they are valuable males, that they’re fulfilling their purpose. It can be very powerful, even if they’re unaware of it, therefore, experiencing this feeling is something they truly enjoy.

And it makes them more feel confident, which makes them more attractive to other women, which is also something I often hear my male friends complain about: the moment they are in a relationship it’s like they suddenly become visible!

Haha, nothing bad here, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Most of us men are pretty simple, in a good way.

Me too. Ruminate away, my friend. I’ll never get bored about it. My brain just lives for this stuff!

Oh, well, I don't have anything right off the top of my head. I'll ponder on it.

I’ll try. But I’m a worrier!

Ah, I think I am too, in a certain sense - I'm the eldest son, I've always been taking care of my siblings and nieces and nephews.

As far as comics though? Really, no need to worry.

Can’t that be accomplished by a retcon, though?

I think if a small narrative point or story is what's being retconned, yes, but if there are multiple plots or narratives that need to be pruned, a reboot can accomplish that. I won't underestimate the potential to massively drop the ball - DC's The New 52 was largely a failure by my estimation, although the Rebirth soft reboot was good while it lasted.

I don’t know either. And I agree: it’s nonsense. And completely unnecessary.

"Modern take" for me would mean having the O5 boys not wearing suits everywhere, not using slangs from the 60s, using smartphones and computers etc… It doesn’t mean changing their personalities.

With very few exceptions, whenever they attempt that "modern take for new readers" they end up writing teen Jean as a brat, for some reason. Why? She was a sweet girl. She’s still a sweet woman. I take offense in this idea that every teenage girl is annoying like that and if you don’t portray them like that, you’re not portraying them well.

I can appreciate that it can be difficult to write female characters, and that sometimes that means they can come off as two-dimensional - but yeah, this bratty teenager thing can get tiring.

[Grinning Soul]

Oh, haha, that's nice. Have you ever read The Road by Cormac McCarthy?

Nope. Is it worth reading?

Well, I've got the good old X-Men comics to go through.

Always a comfort. :)

Yeah, there's a minimum that I will do, but there's only so much I can do.

Even if you were the foreman, chances are they would say “yes, sir” and procede to ignore safety rules as soon as you turned around. I know that type… very few people like that change their ways before it’s too late.

Isn't that where some herd immunity could play a role? Like, that's what the vaccines are doing right? I guess you're right about it mutating though. I don't know, I guess I hope that people do what they can because I don't want harsh mandates or enforcement measures.

Well, the thing is that there isn’t any vaccine which grants 100% immunity, right? So it’s a matter of how much the virus is circulating and how often people are exposing themselves to it.

It doesn’t really work like the following, but to make things easier, think of the roll of a die. The best vaccines used to grant 92% of protection (against the original Coronavirus, not the Delta variant). So every time you get in close contact with someone who has the virus, you have 8% chance of getting it. Roll that dice enough (= get in close contact with an infected people) you’ll be infected too.

Like the masks, the vaccine is just a layer of protection. It’s supposed to work better, but it’s still just a layer. Which is why they should be used together to strengthen the protection.

This is a highly mutating virus so, we need to control the infection rate. The *only* thing that does that with 100% efficacy is preventing contact between infected and non-infected people.

For herd immunity to work, we first need to get the number of new infections to zero and keep it at that for a long time. We need to keep testing at the borders and quarantining new arrivals if they’re infected. Then, if someone manages to slip through all those precautions, the chance they’ll be able to spread the virus is small if everyone around is vaccinated and wearing masks.

Every country in the world needs to do this at the same time, for a long time to actually eradicate this virus.

Just so you have an idea of what is going on around here, Europe had 150,678 new infections yesterday. At the height of the worst wave in January, the UK had 67,803 new infections. Yesterday was the first time it got over 50K since January. And yet, for some reason, in England, from on 19 July:

- No limits on how many people can meet
- 1m-plus guidance removed (except in some places like hospitals and passport control when entering)
- Face coverings no longer required by law, although the government still "expects and recommends" them in crowded and enclosed spaces
- Some shops and transport operators will still require masks
- Nightclubs can reopen
- Pubs and restaurants no longer table-service only
- No limits on guests at weddings and funerals
- No limits on people attending concerts, theatres or sports events
- No restrictions on communal worship
- Guidance recommending against travel to amber list countries removed
- Under-18s and fully vaccinated adults no longer have to self-isolate after visiting amber list countries
- Guidance recommending against travel to amber list countries removed
- Under-18s and fully vaccinated adults no longer have to self-isolate after visiting amber list countries

(https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-52530518)

That could be fun. And yeah, Scott would probably love Elvis. I think I'd have a tough time figuring Jean's tastes.

I think Jean’s taste should be very eclectic. Anything that is good to dance to and/or is very passionate would probably resonate with her and get in her playlist. :D

So she’d love both Janis Joplin and Dionne Warwick. :) (I’ll share some videos bellow)

I don’t think she’s very analytic when it comes to songs. Feelings would matter more than technical aspects.

Think of it like this: does the song make you want to dance to it? She'll probably like it. Is the song good to sing in the shower when no one who can possibly hear you is in the house? She’ll probably like it! :D

I've said that it could've been interesting to see the Utopia Era with Jean, but there are plenty of people who argue that Scott and Emma wouldn't have been together if that had been the case. I can see the rationale for that argument.

Scott and Emma being together would just be a matter of the writers deciding to do so. I don’t see why it couldn’t have happened. The thing is that they didn’t want Scott to lose the big love of his life, but they didn’t want him to be with the big love of his life either. So they kept Jean in the freezer.

Sometimes I’m actually glad she wasn’t around because they’d probably character assassinate her just to keep the fabricated idea that Scott was able to unite mutantdom for the first time ever.

That’s the story they wanted to tell and Jean wouldn’t fit in it, so I don’t know… maybe it was for the better that she was dead.

My friends and I have regular movie nights (I think we're watching Whiplash next and then War Games) and sport nights, MMA and boxing mostly, but maybe we can add this occasionally.

The good thing about Sumo is that the fights are super fast. So if you watch the edited version of the day, where they cut all the ceremony around the fights short, you can watch it in 25-30 mins. And it’s only 15 days of competition every 2 months so it doesn't get tiring.

It’s very different than other fights and that’s what makes it interesting. :)

Yep, the world would be a better place if we all had this attitude, I try to help my sister raise her kids that way. My oldest niece will make adults coffee and her siblings cocoa pretty regularly, she's a good kid.

That’s great. For her own soul and for the world. Kindness generates kindness. :)

You’re a good brother and uncle. Your family is lucky to have you. :)

Haha, nothing bad here, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Most of us men are pretty simple, in a good way.

Which is why most of my friends are men. :D

Oh, well, I don't have anything right off the top of my head. I'll ponder on it.

Here’s a silly one: don’t Xavier’s neck muscles get tired? Cerebro doesn’t look super light! :D

Ah, I think I am too, in a certain sense - I'm the eldest son, I've always been taking care of my siblings and nieces and nephews.

Can I ask you something? Do things tend to go wrong for you if you don’t plan them ahead?

I’m asking this because my brother is super carefree, but stuff on his life seem to just kind figure themselves out on their own.

For me? If I don’t book things way in advance, everything will be booked already. If leave the house with just enough time to get somewhere, there’ll be an accident in road/street and I’ll be late. If I buy just enough pots of yogurt for a number of days, one of them will be broken.

Murphy punishes me every time he can so I try to not give him the chance! :D

As far as comics though? Really, no need to worry.

I’ll try. I’ll try. Thank you. :)

I think if a small narrative point or story is what's being retconned, yes, but if there are multiple plots or narratives that need to be pruned, a reboot can accomplish that. I won't underestimate the potential to massively drop the ball - DC's The New 52 was largely a failure by my estimation, although the Rebirth soft reboot was good while it lasted.

Maybe one day I’ll be comfortable with reboots of any kind. But I’m not at that point yet.

I think about losing The Phoenix, The Dark Phoenix Saga, Born Again and Fall From Grace and I want to scream: “noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!” in a very cinematographic way! :D

But I do see a point when I think about Jean and what happened in: Endsong, AvX, Jean Grey (the series with teen Jean preparing for the Phoenix) and Phoenix Resurrection: The Return of Jean Grey. It’s hard to reconcile all of those stories being canon without resorting to some very flexible headcanon.

If Marvel is happy to just ignore that mess and keep the bird away from Jean, so am I. If they ever decide to bring that bird back to her (and I hope they don’t, ‘cause I don’t trust them), then they need to explain that mess.

I can appreciate that it can be difficult to write female characters, and that sometimes that means they can come off as two-dimensional - but yeah, this bratty teenager thing can get tiring.

It’s hard for female writers to write male characters as well. I think a level of difficulty that translates into their portrayal is expected. But it’s no excuse to make them all two-dimensional.

In Jean’s case, they should just write her as she was in the 60s and drop the silly, sexist stuff of the time.

Just write a well-behaved girl, who is a little shy, very sweet *and* has a temper (‘cause she already had a temper even back when Stan was writing her). Someone who lived through a really huge trauma and and lost 1-3 years of her life (depends on the story) due to mental health issues and powers being out of control, which makes control and good behaviour self-impositions that generate a rebellious side that gets very tempted by the “wrong” things and yet she doesn’t engage in them.

Why can’t a girl like that exists nowadays? What about it is so outdated that needs to be changed otherwise modern readers won’t get the character?

[Grinning Soul]

I'll be sharing some videos of examples of songs I think Jean would like (part of the conversation with Hizashi).



“I know… I’ll never… Love this way again!” - perfect for singing in the shower. :D

[Grinning Soul]

Note her body and facial expressions... the tension on her gestures and voice...



Janis didn't sing. She *became* the song!

Mama Cass's (a super talented singer herself) expression of being totally in awe at around 3:30 and then at the end says it all! :D

[Grinning Soul]

Something from Jean’s erudite upbringing. Still a super emotional song and performance (if you click on the CC button, you can read the lyrics in English):



Not easy to sing in the shower for sure! :D

But Maria Callas was another singer who did more than sing. She became the character she was playing.


--
The Context of "Vissi d'Arte"

Tosca sings this exquisite aria in the 2nd act of Giacomo Puccini's opera, Tosca, one of the composer's most performed operas. Read the entire synopsis of Puccini's Tosca.

Scarpia, Chief of the Secret Police, is investigating the escape of the Roman prisoner, Cesare Angelotti. Always suspicious of Mario Cavaradossi, the painter, Scarpia has his men bring him in for questioning when they run out of leads to find Angelotti. Mario is old friends with Angelotti, and did help him go into hiding in the first act. Despite Scarpia's use of torture, Mario remains steadfastly loyal to his friend and withstands answering any of his questions.

When Mario's lover, Floria Tosca, arrives after receiving a dinner invitation from Scarpia, Mario begs her not to say a word. When he is taken into another room, screams of pain can be heard. Scarpia tells Tosca that she can save Mario if she tells him where Angelotti is hiding. At first, she refuses to answer, but as Mario's cries intensify, she gives in and tells Scarpia everything.

Mario is escorted back into the room with Tosca, but after happily cheering when it was announced by one of Scarpia's men that Napoleon and his troops had won a battle against Scarpia's allies, Scarpia has his men throw him into prison. Amid Tosca's protests, Scarpia tells her she can save him once more as long as she sleeps with him. Tosca sings "Vissi d'Arte" after avoiding several of his advances, wondering why after all she has done, God would abandon her during this terrible time.

(https://www.liveabout.com/vissi-dart...history-724338)

[Grinning Soul]

Only someone with very European hips like my partner can listen to this and *not* feel like dancing! :D



So, you see? Very eclectic. :)

[Hizashi]

I did read and enjoy his ALL STAR SUPERMAN. Now, I didn't think it was the greatest thing since sliced bread like some apparently did. Pretty good, though. Also, I read this after his X Men.

It's one of my favorite books, although I agree it's not the single best book of all time or anything. Great Superman stuff though.

Let's all agree that Morrison should stay away from Marvel.

[Hizashi]

Nope. Is it worth reading?

Well, it's a post-apocalyptic novel about a father trying to keep his son safe - there's a scene where they find a can of coke and his son tastes soda for the first time. It's a great book, but if you're squeamish you might not want to read it.

Always a comfort.

Yep, except for my wallet.

Even if you were the foreman, chances are they would say “yes, sir” and procede to ignore safety rules as soon as you turned around. I know that type… very few people like that change their ways before it’s too late.

That's true. It's frightening - I remember there was a framer working on a scaffold that gave way and he fell. Thankfully, he landed about as well as you can, he was wearing his hard hat, and the fall wasn't from a great height. Now, he did everything right, there was a broken/damaged part on the scaffold that hadn't been inspected by his coworker who used it last, but that's the thing about tradework - someone else's mistake can cost you. What's even scarier is that he was on the second floor, so if he had fallen to his left instead of backward, he'd have fallen an additional 20 feet or so.

Well, the thing is that there isn’t any vaccine which grants 100% immunity, right? So it’s a matter of how much the virus is circulating and how often people are exposing themselves to it.

It doesn’t really work like the following, but to make things easier, think of the roll of a die. The best vaccines used to grant 92% of protection (against the original Coronavirus, not the Delta variant). So every time you get in close contact with someone who has the virus, you have 8% chance of getting it. Roll that dice enough (= get in close contact with an infected people) you’ll be infected too.

Like the masks, the vaccine is just a layer of protection. It’s supposed to work better, but it’s still just a layer. Which is why they should be used together to strengthen the protection.

This is a highly mutating virus so, we need to control the infection rate. The *only* thing that does that with 100% efficacy is preventing contact between infected and non-infected people.

For herd immunity to work, we first need to get the number of new infections to zero and keep it at that for a long time. We need to keep testing at the borders and quarantining new arrivals if they’re infected. Then, if someone manages to slip through all those precautions, the chance they’ll be able to spread the virus is small if everyone around is vaccinated and wearing masks.

Every country in the world needs to do this at the same time, for a long time to actually eradicate this virus.

Just so you have an idea of what is going on around here, Europe had 150,678 new infections yesterday. At the height of the worst wave in January, the UK had 67,803 new infections. Yesterday was the first time it got over 50K since January. And yet, for some reason, in England, from on 19 July:

- No limits on how many people can meet
- 1m-plus guidance removed (except in some places like hospitals and passport control when entering)
- Face coverings no longer required by law, although the government still "expects and recommends" them in crowded and enclosed spaces
- Some shops and transport operators will still require masks
- Nightclubs can reopen
- Pubs and restaurants no longer table-service only
- No limits on guests at weddings and funerals
- No limits on people attending concerts, theatres or sports events
- No restrictions on communal worship
- Guidance recommending against travel to amber list countries removed
- Under-18s and fully vaccinated adults no longer have to self-isolate after visiting amber list countries
- Guidance recommending against travel to amber list countries removed
- Under-18s and fully vaccinated adults no longer have to self-isolate after visiting amber list countries

(https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-52530518)

Wow, well, I don't know what to say. That's crazy seems like an understatement. Can't people just take the initiative and act responsibly?

I think Jean’s taste should be very eclectic. Anything that is good to dance to and/or is very passionate would probably resonate with her and get in her playlist.

So she’d love both Janis Joplin and Dionne Warwick. (I’ll share some videos bellow)

I don’t think she’s very analytic when it comes to songs. Feelings would matter more than technical aspects.

Think of it like this: does the song make you want to dance to it? She'll probably like it. Is the song good to sing in the shower when no one who can possibly hear you is in the house? She’ll probably like it!

Ah, okay, my mom is much the same way. Of course, she's an immigrant so she doesn't listen to popular American music much.

Scott and Emma being together would just be a matter of the writers deciding to do so. I don’t see why it couldn’t have happened. The thing is that they didn’t want Scott to lose the big love of his life, but they didn’t want him to be with the big love of his life either. So they kept Jean in the freezer.

Sometimes I’m actually glad she wasn’t around because they’d probably character assassinate her just to keep the fabricated idea that Scott was able to unite mutantdom for the first time ever.

That’s the story they wanted to tell and Jean wouldn’t fit in it, so I don’t know… maybe it was for the better that she was dead.

I think there were definitely some changes that could've been made to the Utopia Era so that Scott's central role would've been better received. As for Jean's presence, I can see both arguments regarding Scott's relationships - and honestly, after a while, I was ready for him to be single for a bit. In fact, at the start of this era, with the triangle shenanigans, I was back to that point-of-view. Now it seems that Marvel wants to have their cake and eat it too.

The good thing about Sumo is that the fights are super fast. So if you watch the edited version of the day, where they cut all the ceremony around the fights short, you can watch it in 25-30 mins. And it’s only 15 days of competition every 2 months so it doesn't get tiring.

It’s very different than other fights and that’s what makes it interesting.

That's convenient - although, sometimes short fights can feel like a letdown. In MMA, when a fight ends within the first round it can sometimes feel a little disappointing.

That’s great. For her own soul and for the world. Kindness generates kindness.

You’re a good brother and uncle. Your family is lucky to have you.

Thank you, it takes a village right? Sometimes after work you're tired, but you wanna come through for your family ya know? My sister is a good mom, and her kids are great. I've been showing them all the things we grew up with, comics and cartoons and stuff, it's fun. I haven't gotten to the X-Men Animated Series yet, although maybe I should start them on X-Men Evolution?

Which is why most of my friends are men.

My friend's wife is the same way - I think the world is still trying to figure out how men and women best fit with each other, and that's without bringing multiple cultures into the picture.

Here’s a silly one: don’t Xavier’s neck muscles get tired? Cerebro doesn’t look super light!

That's a good one! I wear a hardhat eight hours a day at least, and the weight takes a bit of getting used to at first, but eventually you don't think about it anymore. Of course, Cerebro is a little more than a hardhat. Maybe it's constructed of lightweight materials? Or he has Magneto hold its weight for him or an assistant telekinetic?

Can I ask you something? Do things tend to go wrong for you if you don’t plan them ahead?

I’m asking this because my brother is super carefree, but stuff on his life seem to just kind figure themselves out on their own.

For me? If I don’t book things way in advance, everything will be booked already. If leave the house with just enough time to get somewhere, there’ll be an accident in road/street and I’ll be late. If I buy just enough pots of yogurt for a number of days, one of them will be broken.

Murphy punishes me every time he can so I try to not give him the chance!

I try to take a middle-ground approach; plan as much as I can but not to stress if things don't go that way. I've definitely been late when I've had just enough time to make it somewhere, or I forget something because I haven't taken the time to prep.

That being said, if I miss my turn at a light, I deal with it. No sense in getting into a car accident over a mistake. If I'm gonna be late to work, I let my boss know, no lies or anything, I'm just running late.

I’ll try. I’ll try. Thank you.

Of course, this is an appreciation thread, appreciate away.

[Hizashi]

Had to break my response into two, too many words.

Maybe one day I’ll be comfortable with reboots of any kind. But I’m not at that point yet.

I think about losing The Phoenix, The Dark Phoenix Saga, Born Again and Fall From Grace and I want to scream: “noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!” in a very cinematographic way!

But I do see a point when I think about Jean and what happened in: Endsong, AvX, Jean Grey (the series with teen Jean preparing for the Phoenix) and Phoenix Resurrection: The Return of Jean Grey. It’s hard to reconcile all of those stories being canon without resorting to some very flexible headcanon.

If Marvel is happy to just ignore that mess and keep the bird away from Jean, so am I. If they ever decide to bring that bird back to her (and I hope they don’t, ‘cause I don’t trust them), then they need to explain that mess.

A reboot wouldn't necessarily throw those stories away - suppose Marvel decides that there are stories across their books (X-Men, Avengers, Spider-Man, associated characters, etc.) that are contradictory and so they have an event that prunes their continuity. They could just explain what stories have been removed, and the rest of continuity is intact.

It’s hard for female writers to write male characters as well. I think a level of difficulty that translates into their portrayal is expected. But it’s no excuse to make them all two-dimensional.

In Jean’s case, they should just write her as she was in the 60s and drop the silly, sexist stuff of the time.

Just write a well-behaved girl, who is a little shy, very sweet *and* has a temper (‘cause she already had a temper even back when Stan was writing her). Someone who lived through a really huge trauma and and lost 1-3 years of her life (depends on the story) due to mental health issues and powers being out of control, which makes control and good behaviour self-impositions that generate a rebellious side that gets very tempted by the “wrong” things and yet she doesn’t engage in them.

Why can’t a girl like that exists nowadays? What about it is so outdated that needs to be changed otherwise modern readers won’t get the character?

I don't want to be a negative Nancy, but it seems to me that there's a general drop in the quality of storytelling in mainstream in superhero comics - maybe the writers haven't found their niche yet, or the editors aren't working as closely as they should, or any other number of reasons. I don't want to read anything from Marvel other than X-Men, and even that's tenuous at best - and I've dropped a few books from DC, I don't like the general direction they're headed. How girls and women are being written are just another aspect in this problem.

[Grinning Soul]

Well, it's a post-apocalyptic novel about a father trying to keep his son safe - there's a scene where they find a can of coke and his son tastes soda for the first time. It's a great book, but if you're squeamish you might not want to read it.

I’m not squeamish. I watched the real life autopsy of a Joe Doe once. My uncle is a pathologist and he took my brother and I to the morgue because my brother was considering studying Medicine out of a soft pressure for being born into a family of doctors. :D

There is one thing I find hard to watch, though. You know those torture scenes where they pull the nails of the prisoner off? Urgh… that is horrible!

But yeah, pandemic and all, I don’t think I’m a mood for anything post-apocalyptic. :D

Yep, except for my wallet.

Oh, yeah… If they’re new old books, they hurt the wallet. :D

That's true. It's frightening - I remember there was a framer working on a scaffold that gave way and he fell. Thankfully, he landed about as well as you can, he was wearing his hard hat, and the fall wasn't from a great height. Now, he did everything right, there was a broken/damaged part on the scaffold that hadn't been inspected by his coworker who used it last, but that's the thing about tradework - someone else's mistake can cost you. What's even scarier is that he was on the second floor, so if he had fallen to his left instead of backward, he'd have fallen an additional 20 feet or so.

Oh my… I”m glad he didn’t get seriously hurt. Were you there when it happened?

Wow, well, I don't know what to say. That's crazy seems like an understatement. Can't people just take the initiative and act responsibly?

They can. But they don’t. It’s the example of the law against drinking and driving. If people were responsible, we wouldn’t need that law, would we?

Remember that conversation about us not being Coke or Pepsi? I know the feeling, my friend, I keep surprising myself about stuff humans beings do that seems obvious to me that they shouldn't (and vice versa).

Ah, okay, my mom is much the same way. Of course, she's an immigrant so she doesn't listen to popular American music much.

Opera isn’t exactly American either. Or popular. :D

I think Jean most likely enjoys some international songs too. I imagine Jean to be cultured, which is one of the traits she shares with Charles. She should have a good amount of joie de vivre that is often expressed in her intellectual curiosity about different cultures. I can see her going to international film festivals (probably with Ororo) and picking films based on country of origin instead of the story. :)

Same for music and cultural festivals. The mansion was near NYC, so she probably was doing something like that as often as possible.

I think there were definitely some changes that could've been made to the Utopia Era so that Scott's central role would've been better received. As for Jean's presence, I can see both arguments regarding Scott's relationships - and honestly, after a while, I was ready for him to be single for a bit. In fact, at the start of this era, with the triangle shenanigans, I was back to that point-of-view. Now it seems that Marvel wants to have their cake and eat it too.

Let me re-phrase it here: if Jean was alive, selling Scott and Emma together would be much harder. Even Morrison had trouble with it: he barely had Scott and Jean interacting the whole run and he left everything very ambiguous on purpose. While Scott says loves Jean, there isn’t a single mention of something positive about Emma as a person. It’s only about how he feels. He never tried to be her friend or talk about her loss and trauma. Not even when she’s holding the body of her dead daughter, does Scott has anything sweet or supportive to say to her. Instead, he tells her he made a decision between Jean and her. Yeah, that’s love indeed!

So, if Jean was alive at the end of Morrison’s run, it would be really hard to sell the other couple. But that never stopped any comic book writer, did it? And that was my point.

I don’t need to change anything about Scott’s role during the Utopia Era, actually. I’d just not have the characters around him - looking at you, Magneto - behaving like cheerleaders all the time. That’s the part that is very annoying, actually.

And Jean… like I said, I could see her going to San Francisco. I could see her retreating to Utopia at first. But, regardless of their relationship status, at some point, Jean would get in his office and say: “All right, so what’s next, Scott? We’re the X-Men. Utopia can’t be the endgame. Survival can’t be the endgame. If we are to go “extinct”, if we are to die one by one until we do, let it mean mean something. We started this together, all these years ago, and we’ve been through so much since… There’s no one I’d want by my side more than you, but I’ll understand if you can’t be there this time. This is what I will do: if I am to die, I want to die as I lived. An X-Man. Protecting who needs protection regardless of how they feel about my genes, and living among people of a different genetic make-up because I believe we can co-exist. How will they ever believe in it too, if I’m choosing to live apart? I’m leaving, Scott. I’m sorry, but I can’t be a part of this any longer.”

But they wouldn’t do that, right? They’d have her admiring him and being very thankful because mutantkind have his leading them. Ugh… Like I said: it would be character assassination for her. Just like it will be now, if they never really show her leaving Krakoa because she was somehow under an external influence.

So, 15+ years being dead? Yeah, there’s a bright side even to that (which will mean nothing - and *really* piss me off - if Jean is actually, really, okay with Krakoa).

That's convenient - although, sometimes short fights can feel like a letdown. In MMA, when a fight ends within the first round it can sometimes feel a little disappointing.

Fast fights are integral part of Sumo. The longest fight you’ll even see will have 5 minutes tops.

The thing is that, inside the circle, the only part of the body of the wrestler that can touch the ground is the soles of his feet. And no body part can touch outside that area. That’s why the fights are so fast. But what is cool about it is that any mistake can be fatal. It’s completely different dynamics from other fights.

Thank you, it takes a village right? Sometimes after work you're tired, but you wanna come through for your family ya know? My sister is a good mom, and her kids are great. I've been showing them all the things we grew up with, comics and cartoons and stuff, it's fun. I haven't gotten to the X-Men Animated Series yet, although maybe I should start them on X-Men Evolution?

I’m certain that you’re very special to those kids and your influence is something they’ll carry within them for the rest of their lives.

I understand being tired and feeling you deserve to be selfish and indulge yourself in whatever you feel like doing. I do. And, you know, you should do it every now and then too. But spending time with those kids does make a difference to them and how they’re growing up. One day they won’t be kids anymore and they won’t need their uncle. And that will be a good thing: it will mean you helped them growing up with a healthy emotional psyche. So it pays off, my friend. :)

As for the cartoons, I’d start with The Animated Series because it’s so much closer to the comics. But do promise me that you’ll make sure to tell him that’s not the real Jean Grey? That the real Jean Grey is super badass and doesn’t faint all the time? That she’s really that sweet, but she’s actually one of the most powerful mutants around and she has a temper? :D

I think it’s better if they see X-Men Evolution as an AU. It’s certainly fun, but I don’t think it should be their first reference to what the X-Men should look like.

But I have to admit: Scott and Jean are sooooooo cute together in Evolution! :)

“Don’t tell me what you can’t do. I know you better than anyone ever has or ever will”
“You know? That’s what I like about you, Scott: you know me better than anyone ever has or ever will.”

[Grinning Soul]

My friend's wife is the same way - I think the world is still trying to figure out how men and women best fit with each other, and that's without bringing multiple cultures into the picture.

I think the world doesn’t need to figure anything out other than separating the concepts of masculine and feminine from biological gender and sexual orientation. We all have masculine and feminine traits in us and the proportions vary from individual to individual and they shouldn’t be judged for that.

One of my uncles is one of the most maternal persons I’ve ever met and he’s a straight man. What’s wrong with that? It’s beautiful. He shouldn’t be forced not to express this side of his, because it’s going to challenge society’s expectation of what it means to “be a man”.

I love make-up and high heels and I can apply and walk on them well. But I don’t have the patience or interest to do that everyday: it’s not practical and it takes too much time. Do you have any idea on how many times I was judged for that? “You’re not feminine. You don’t love yourself. Yadda. Yadaa”. And my “crime” as doing what most straight guys do: wake up, wear whatever, go on about my day.

Why are we still stuck in this kind of thinking? We just have respect people and respect the way they are. That’s all.

If we all treated others the way we’d like to be treated and if we learn from the feedback people give us about our behaviour towards them, the world would be a much better place.

That's a good one! I wear a hardhat eight hours a day at least, and the weight takes a bit of getting used to at first, but eventually you don't think about it anymore. Of course, Cerebro is a little more than a hardhat. Maybe it's constructed of lightweight materials? Or he has Magneto hold its weight for him or an assistant telekinetic?

I think Cerebro has to be constructed of lightweight materials indeed, but even then it’s still probably heavier than your hardhat and Charles seems to wear that more than 8 hours a day. He wears it whenever he’s not sleeping (and I suppose having a shower). In X-Men #4 (Hickman’s run), they’re wearing business suits, Magneto isn’t wearing his helmet, but Charles, sure enough, is wearing Cerebro. He’s even having dinner while wearing it. And it wasn’t the only time we saw his meeting humans in a business suit and Cerebro (X-Force #1 also shows that). So, basically, he barely takes the thing off.

He can, of course, telepathically ignore his own muscle pain and resort to some Krakoan muscle relaxant, pain killer or even the mutant power of another mutant like Healer.

But you see… I do think about stuff like that. I’m telling you: this jelly inside my skull has a life of its own. :D

I try to take a middle-ground approach; plan as much as I can but not to stress if things don't go that way. I've definitely been late when I've had just enough time to make it somewhere, or I forget something because I haven't taken the time to prep.

That being said, if I miss my turn at a light, I deal with it. No sense in getting into a car accident over a mistake. If I'm gonna be late to work, I let my boss know, no lies or anything, I'm just running late.

Oh, yeah… When I’m on vacations, for instance, I buy a Lonely Planet guide (I love their walking tours) and read about the things I’d like to do and decide what I’ll do the next day. I don’t plan the whole vacations before I even leave the house. Nah. It’s supposed to be relaxing. Keeping a tight schedule is the opposite of that.

I love the Cirque du Soleil, and one of their shows was in London during my trip there. So that ticket I bought way in advance. But for everything else? I’d really just open my guide in the evening and decide what I’d be doing the next day.

But on daily life it's different. Murphy is a jerk to me: anything that can go wrong will go wrong indeed. So, in order not to stress myself, I prepare and plan ahead. People often think that this is stressful to me, but it actually isn't. :)

And, you know, I don't break apart if a plan doesn't work well and I have to adapt. It's part of life.

Of course, this is an appreciation thread, appreciate away.

I thought I was gushing enough about my favourite couple, but I can always gush some more, I guess! :P

A reboot wouldn't necessarily throw those stories away - suppose Marvel decides that there are stories across their books (X-Men, Avengers, Spider-Man, associated characters, etc.) that are contradictory and so they have an event that prunes their continuity. They could just explain what stories have been removed, and the rest of continuity is intact.

I’d prefer that, actually: what is still canon, Marvel, please? Would you just tell us?

But… when you really think about Moira’s storyline, nothing of the X-Men story is guaranteed to be canon at this point, is it? That’s another something to ruminate about. :D

I don't want to be a negative Nancy, but it seems to me that there's a general drop in the quality of storytelling in mainstream in superhero comics - maybe the writers haven't found their niche yet, or the editors aren't working as closely as they should, or any other number of reasons. I don't want to read anything from Marvel other than X-Men, and even that's tenuous at best - and I've dropped a few books from DC, I don't like the general direction they're headed. How girls and women are being written are just another aspect in this problem.

Remember when we were talking about what I would do if I was writing DD and I told you wouldn’t focus on any world-shattering event? I'd just focus to get the basics right and tell a compelling story?

That’s the problem with X-Men comics nowadays. It hasn’t just been about the X-Men since M-Day. It’s been about the fate of the entire mutantdom. While they were less than 200 mutants, the stories could still feel more personal, but now? With all the political implications of a nation that is doing the stuff that Krakoa has…? It’s about the overall world-building, not the characters.

It seems editorial has forgotten that a good story doesn’t need to be about status quo changes and a huge impact on the society around them. Look at CC’s stories… how many times did they affect the Marvel Universe or the whole mutantdom? And they’re still mostly considered good stories, right? Why?

Now, I don’t want people to copy or cannibalize CC’s work. The point is just that a good story is about good characters and/or a good plot. That’s it. You don’t need to be world-building anew every 5-10 years.

[lancer]

Go for it!

I started reading Uncanny in 1980, so no amount of retcon will convince me that they’re not soulmates.

Attachment 111554

1973 for me. When they were only publishing reprints. I read my uncle's comics. He had complete runs on X Men, FF and Spider-Man. I became a Jott fan from the first 66 issues.

[lancer]

Yeah they had a whole annual explaining the logan/jean revelation. I tortured myself with that issue only cuz I loved Sana Takeda's art and again out if curiosity.

As far as cyclops looking back in hindsight he didnt handle the Maddie/ Jean thing the best way...
Though that all goes back to Claremont and his creation of Maddie in the first place...

So I guess essentially the way I look at it, is the characters just so whatever the whim of the writers. Do I like it? No but that is the hand we're dealt as far as comic readers and we can choose to read anymore like you have.

Tortured yourself? That was me with PHOENIX ENDSONG. I read it for Jean, but it was torture. The things that were coming out of Scott's mouth. For me, it's either the writer or it's the character. They have always been fictional constructs who only do what a writer has them do. Yet, we form emotional attachments. The character is what is on the page. It can't be when I like what's on the page I love the character and when I don't, well it's not the character, it's the writer. Obviously, I'll blame the writer, especially if I think it's out of character. However, the character did it. He doesn't get a pass from me.

[lancer]

Yes. We do disagree, then. And I don't think there's anymore I can add so, unless you do, I suppose it's time we drop this discussion, right?

Yes, agreed. We are not going to change its others minds. Also, I don't have a long expiration date on these conversations. If Morrison emailed me telling me that my interpretation of the kiss was his intention, it would bring me vert little solace. Shit, I'd rather tell me that you were right because I'd rather Jean not willingly do that. And that still would no nothing to rectify Scott. Me being "right" wouldn't get me back. I'd much rather I be proven wrong about Jean if they would retcon Scott's culpability in the affair.

All water long, coming up on 20 years, under the bridge.