Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Grinning Soul]

Yeah, I guess he did see it but wouldn't let himself accept it.

Even without his troubled past, I think most boys his age, experiencing their first love, would be wondering if what they're seeing is real or their wishful thinking. Especially if they considered the girl they were in love with was out of their league.

But Jean also had the moments in which she was: "The way he looked at me... does he?"

It was all very dramatic and sweet. :D

That's true, understanding what was done in context still doesn't excuse it.

I just remember thinking how funny that was, like man, they're really kicking them when their down.

Well, think about it: were Scott and Jean supposed not to live that moment together because it would hurt other people's feelings? After everything they’d been through? Emma and Scott weren't together anymore and Jean and Logan had never been.

I think after 2.5-3 in-story years without each other and (especially) after their resurrection stories, they were finally both alive, right there, in front of each other. I think the world around them really ceased to exist at the moment and they couldn't care less who was watching, which just adds to the passion of the moment and makes that kiss even hotter. :D

Did the creative team have to put Emma and Logan in the same panel? No, they could have split the panel in two: one for the kiss, one for their reaction. But it wouldn't change the fact both characters were there and witnessed the reunion.

I want so badly for this nonsense to end; and you're right, Marvel didn't care about the ramifications regarding how these characters are perceived individually and in the dreaded triangle.

Sometimes it's not a matter of caring. Sometimes it's just sheer arrogance. They put themselves in a position of knowing better and that’s the only argument they need.

Yeah, you chose *the* couple who combined, including gimmicks like pocket realities, have had a total of 8 sexual partners throughout their lives (6 other than the couple itself), who have never been in a romantic relationship with another person while the other was alive/perceived as alive, who both have issues of insecurity and jealousy, and you go: "yeah, of all our mutants, those two are the best candidates for us to put in a polyamory relationship".

Argh, I want this nonsense to end too. At this point I don't even care how, I’m up for pretending I didn’t see it. However, I'm still hoping there is an external factor acting on them, an in-story reason for it to have started.

Yeah, that's the right way of looking at it; damage is being done to these characters and for what? Cheap drama? Bad writing and short-sighted editorial meddling? Where's the quality control?

Both Jean and Scott read so off nowadays, that I'm hoping it's not just bad writing, but a conscious decision of their part to help displaying that there's something actually wrong, actually affecting their behaviour.

There are three possible culprits here: Krakoa (and several options about it), the resurrection protocols (either it's just conceptually flawed, the method is flawed, or Sinister is up to no good) or everyone has that mental bug/coin/whatever that David extracted from Kurt's mind and it’s actually affecting their critical thinking, inhibitions, experience of complex emotions.

I've begun collecting the Uncanny X-Men Omni's, I currently have the first three volumes, plus I just ordered the Inferno Omnibus. There's a lot of reading and rereading I gotta do, I read X-Men all out of order and the first run I read completely was actually Morrison's New X-Men.

I have a friend who actually read, as a kid, the first issue of X-Men and even he hasn't read everything or everything in order. So, really: you're not alone. :)

[Grinning Soul]

I remember the wedding issue - the week it hit the shelves, my local comic shop had an actual 3 tiered wedding cake and was giving slices to any subscribers who either picked up stuff that day or had an empty pull slot (for those who didn't have anything that week). I don't think they did that for any other comics couple - not Lois and Clark, not Peter and MJ, although I admit that Reed and Sue was before my time, and possibly before the store was a thing as well.

Oh, really? An actual wedding cake at the shop? That is so cool! It warms my heart. My comic book shop wasn’t that fancy.

But, yeah, it was the reflection of the times, right? The X-Men were very popular because of the cartoon (actually, Scott and Jean got married in the cartoon before the comics!) and the 90s were a good period for the US economy.

So everything worked in their favour. And it was a good thing because they really deserve it. Honestly, there isn’t a single more visually iconic couple around.

Their personalities, when translated visually, make their poses and the way they interact with each other look organic, like they’re two halves of an incredibly powerful, epic, heroic being.

I know the words masculine and feminine nowadays are charged and problematic so I’m using them with caution here, but really, it’s their (good, non-toxic) masculine and feminine vibes that kinda just click into something beautiful, like an yin-yang sort of thing.

I mean… look at this:





Do you see what I mean?

[Grinning Soul]

I think it was 1966 when Reed and Sue married. So I would seriously doubt their were any comic shop celebrations going on. Nicole Miller really deigned Jean's wedding dress. That wedding was a pretty big deal. Maybe not Lois and Clark big since they had a tv series built around them, but pretty damn big at the time.

I’m not American, so it’s hard for me to compare both weddings, but Jean and Scott’s was indeed huge. And the comic book itself is done brilliantly.

I’m a *huge* Daredevil fan and I have to admit that as much as I love some of his stories, as much as I love the Phoenix and the Dark Phoenix sagas, that wedding issue moves me like no other. And that’s because it’s such a happy, hopeful moment for all the characters… My poor emotional heart can’t help melting.

You see… comics had heart.



I know I’m a silly fool, but I miss those things…



EDIT: Sorry, I think it's hard to read the dialogue. Here it is:

Boxes: The living room of Charles Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters. Home.

- Jean: Wha--?! I'm sorry, Charles. I didn't mean to wake you. You'd fallen asleep while reading and I...

- Charles: No. Don't apologise. Somehow I'm certain I was about to wake up anyway.

- Jean: Yes, well... now that you're up maybe you should go to bed. Good night, sir.

- Charles: Jean... please. I... I'm sorry if I let you -- you and the others -- down.

- Jean: Charles... Just because I don't agree with your decision to open the doors of our home to Sabretooth doesn't, for an instant, mean I think you could ever possibly let me down! After everything you've sacrificed on behalf of each and every one of us, it'd be impossible to ignore all of it in the light of a single disagreement. Sir, where would we be -- where would any of us be -- if we didn't have each other? You're the one who brought us here and that's a debt which we can never repay.

- Charles: Actually Jean, there is something you can do for me. Two Saturdays from now.

- Jean: The wedding? Name it, Charles.

- Charles: Love him. Promise, with your marriage, to love Scott forever and to be secure enough with yourself, to allow him to return that love. Because this is exactly what the X-Men were created for... what it is we continue to fight for every day of our lives. The chance, at least, to know happiness. And just so there is not further misunderstanding, I want you to know... in no uncertain terms... that I love you, Jean Grey.

- Jean: And I love you, too... with all my heart and soul. I'll keep your promise, sir... and thank you. For everything.

[lancer]

I’m not American, so it’s hard for me to compare both weddings, but Jean and Scott’s was indeed huge. And the comic book itself is done brilliantly.

I’m a *huge* Daredevil fan and I have to admit that as much as I love some of his stories, as much as I love the Phoenix and the Dark Phoenix sagas, that wedding issue moves me like no other. And that’s because it’s such a happy, hopeful moment for all the characters… My poor emotional heart can’t help melting.

You see… comics had heart.



I know I’m a silly fool, but I miss those things…



EDIT: Sorry, I think it's hard to read the dialogue. Here it is:

Boxes: The living room of Charles Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters. Home.

- Jean: Wha--?! I'm sorry, Charles. I didn't mean to wake you. You'd fallen asleep while reading and I...

- Charles: No. Don't apologise. Somehow I'm certain I was about to wake up anyway.

- Jean: Yes, well... now that you're up maybe you should go to bed. Good night, sir.

- Charles: Jean... please. I... I'm sorry if I let you -- you and the others -- down.

- Jean: Charles... Just because I don't agree with your decision to open the doors of our home to Sabretooth doesn't, for an instant, mean I think you could ever possibly let me down! After everything you've sacrificed on behalf of each and every one of us, it'd be impossible to ignore all of it in the light of a single disagreement. Sir, where would we be -- where would any of us be -- if we didn't have each other? You're the one who brought us here and that's a debt which we can never repay.

- Charles: Actually Jean, there is something you can do for me. Two Saturdays from now.

- Jean: The wedding? Name it, Charles.

- Charles: Love him. Promise, with your marriage, to love Scott forever and to be secure enough with yourself, to allow him to return that love. Because this is exactly what the X-Men were created for... what it is we continue to fight for every day of our lives. The chance, at least, to know happiness. And just so there is not further misunderstanding, I want you to know... in no uncertain terms... that I love you, Jean Grey.

- Jean: And I love you, too... with all my heart and soul. I'll keep your promise, sir... and thank you. For everything.

I used to read that Grant Morrison comics make you think. Myself, I preferred comics that made me feel. And while I'm certainly not claiming that Scott Lobdell is a better writer than Morrison or disputing some of Lobdell's long term plotting issues, he wrote a bunch of X Men comics that REALLY made me feel.

Heart is the perfect word. I haven't been as high on some of the Marvel movies as others because I thought they overdid the humor. Saw SPIDER-MAN HOMECOMING and my first reaction was that it needed more heart and less humor.

Peter Sanderson said that about Morrison's run. While he admired some of the concepts and ideas that he introduced, that he need no affection for the run. It lacked the emotional warmth, as you'd call it, heart, of previous writers.

Are those panels from UXM 309? That is Xavier's past with Amelia Voight. Like UXM 308 and the wedding issue, filled with heart, emotional resonance. i waited a long time for that couple to get married so they certainly were among some of my favorite books. A very long time ago, though. A lot of what I found horribly distasteful characterization since then. Stuff i couldn't get past.

[lancer]

I hadn't even been born yet in 1966, and I think the comics the couple who ran the store would have been interested in at the time most likely involved andromorphic animals and oversized hammers being drawn out of impossibly small spaces.

I was alive,but not reading comics yet. I'm not sure when i first heard of comics shops or when I first used them. Early 90s, maybe late 80s. i bought mine off regular newstands for a very long time. Perhaps there were a few in the 60s. If so, can't imagine there were many.

[Grinning Soul]

I used to read that Grant Morrison comics make you think. Myself, I preferred comics that made me feel. And while I'm certainly not claiming that Scott Lobdell is a better writer than Morrison or disputing some of Lobdell's long term plotting issues, he wrote a bunch of X Men comics that REALLY made me feel.

Heart is the perfect word. I haven't been as high on some of the Marvel movies as others because I thought they overdid the humor. Saw SPIDER-MAN HOMECOMING and my first reaction was that it needed more heart and less humor.

Peter Sanderson said that about Morrison's run. While he admired some of the concepts and ideas that he introduced, that he need no affection for the run. It lacked the emotional warmth, as you'd call it, heart, of previous writers.

Are those panels from UXM 309? That is Xavier's past with Amelia Voight. Like UXM 308 and the wedding issue, filled with heart, emotional resonance. i waited a long time for that couple to get married so they certainly were among some of my favorite books. A very long time ago, though. A lot of what I found horribly distasteful characterization since then. Stuff i couldn't get past.

Well, even though I agree there are some interesting elements there, I don’t like Morrison’s run so I can't judge you. :)

I agree with most of what you said, though I tend to like the MCU movies for various reasons.

As for the pages, yes, it’s from UXM 309.

spoilers:

Charles is having a dream, he's subconsciously trying to reconcile what he did to Magneto and why he isn’t feeling 100% happy about Scott and Jean’s marriage. I’m sure lots of fans (readers and future writers) read this issue and use it as evidence to show that he is a jerk, but I read it and I find it beautifully human. When we get to the part about Amelia, especially, it’s heartbreaking. And you understand his conflict and how he himself comes to understand it and overcome it. By the time his first students are getting married, his feelings are conflicted as one of a parent.

end of spoilers

I absolutely love how real those characters feel around that time, even if the stories themselves aren’t that great.

And I really miss it from the comics nowadays. Especially the current ones of this Krakoan era...

[PlacidMule]

X-Men - Wedding of Cyclops & Phoenix-326.jpg

X-Men - Wedding of Cyclops & Phoenix-327.jpg

X-Men - Wedding of Cyclops & Phoenix-331.jpg

[lancer]

Well, even though I agree there are some interesting elements there, I don’t like Morrison’s run so I can't judge you.

I agree with most of what you said, though I tend to like the MCU movies for various reasons.

As for the pages, yes, it’s from UXM 309.

spoilers:

Charles is having a dream, he's subconsciously trying to reconcile what he did to Magneto and why he isn’t feeling 100% happy about Scott and Jean’s marriage. I’m sure lots of fans (readers and future writers) read this issue and use it as evidence to show that he is a jerk, but I read it and I find it beautifully human. When we get to the part about Amelia, especially, it’s heartbreaking. And you understand his conflict and how he himself comes to understand it and overcome it. By the time his first students are getting married, his feelings are conflicted as one of a parent.

end of spoilers

I absolutely love how real those characters feel around that time, even if the stories themselves aren’t that great.

And I really miss it from the comics nowadays. Especially the current ones of this Krakoan era...

Boy, you really are spoiler conscious. The book is nearly 30 years old. Better safe than sorry, I suppose. Your summary is how I thought i remembered it. Xavier's talk with Jean is, in part, about his past with Voight.

FYI, I despised Morrison's X Men. That said, I see a skilled writer in stuff he's written, I give the devil his due. However, for me, craftsmanship will never trump characterization. And I didn't like how he characterized my 2 favorite X Men. Scott and Jean. Still, even with them, there were moments I liked. But what I disliked, I hated. I did like how he handled Logan.

[Hizashi]

Even without his troubled past, I think most boys his age, experiencing their first love, would be wondering if what they're seeing is real or their wishful thinking. Especially if they considered the girl they were in love with was out of their league.

But Jean also had the moments in which she was: "The way he looked at me... does he?"

It was all very dramatic and sweet.

Yeah, I remember that typifying their initial relationship under Lee/Kirby. Gotta get those books too.

Well, think about it: were Scott and Jean supposed not to live that moment together because it would hurt other people's feelings? After everything they’d been through? Emma and Scott weren't together anymore and Jean and Logan had never been.

I think after 2.5-3 in-story years without each other and (especially) after their resurrection stories, they were finally both alive, right there, in front of each other. I think the world around them really ceased to exist at the moment and they couldn't care less who was watching, which just adds to the passion of the moment and makes that kiss even hotter.

Did the creative team have to put Emma and Logan in the same panel? No, they could have split the panel in two: one for the kiss, one for their reaction. But it wouldn't change the fact both characters were there and witnessed the reunion.

It was pretty funny too, in a way. Too bad that kiss didn't lead to a renaissance of their relationship.

Sometimes it's not a matter of caring. Sometimes it's just sheer arrogance. They put themselves in a position of knowing better and that’s the only argument they need.

Yeah, you chose *the* couple who combined, including gimmicks like pocket realities, have had a total of 8 sexual partners throughout their lives (6 other than the couple itself), who have never been in a romantic relationship with another person while the other was alive/perceived as alive, who both have issues of insecurity and jealousy, and you go: "yeah, of all our mutants, those two are the best candidates for us to put in a polyamory relationship".

Argh, I want this nonsense to end too. At this point I don't even care how, I’m up for pretending I didn’t see it. However, I'm still hoping there is an external factor acting on them, an in-story reason for it to have started.

It's incredibly frustrating. Just hit us with the 11th Life reset already.

Both Jean and Scott read so off nowadays, that I'm hoping it's not just bad writing, but a conscious decision of their part to help displaying that there's something actually wrong, actually affecting their behaviour.

There are three possible culprits here: Krakoa (and several options about it), the resurrection protocols (either it's just conceptually flawed, the method is flawed, or Sinister is up to no good) or everyone has that mental bug/coin/whatever that David extracted from Kurt's mind and it’s actually affecting their critical thinking, inhibitions, experience of complex emotions.

You're being incredibly generous, I don't have such a positive outlook on this situation.

I have a friend who actually read, as a kid, the first issue of X-Men and even he hasn't read everything or everything in order. So, really: you're not alone.

There's so much to read, and that's not even counting ancillary books. I think for Jott's sake I'll stick to Uncanny/X-Men/X-Factor, maybe New Mutants at some point.

[Grinning Soul]

Boy, you really are spoiler conscious. The book is nearly 30 years old. Better safe than sorry, I suppose. Your summary is how I thought i remembered it. Xavier's talk with Jean is, in part, about his past with Voight.

FYI, I despised Morrison's X Men. That said, I see a skilled writer in stuff he's written, I give the devil his due. However, for me, craftsmanship will never trump characterization. And I didn't like how he characterized my 2 favorite X Men. Scott and Jean. Still, even with them, there were moments I liked. But what I disliked, I hated. I did like how he handled Logan.

I know Hizashi is considering reading these books, so I'm trying not to spoil. I'm even considering if I should be posting those panels/pages here at all, actually. I really don't want to ruin the fun for anyone...

As for Morrison's run... well, it's a matter of taste, right? Characterization is important to me too and the characters feel off to me. I'll give you an example: I don't think any one them reacted to Genosha with enough intensity: anger, depression, renewed determination, even PTSD... I don't know, anything like that. They kinda just shrugged it off and it feels weird to me.

I don't want to focus too much on that run, but yes: I get what you mean. And I also get that different fans will enjoy different things.

Personally and generally speaking (it's not a comment on Morrison's run in specific), I prefer when the X-Men are about heroes and heroics. If I want to read dark stories with cynical characters, I can find better ones outside the X-corner of the MU or even comics. But I know some people really love this tone and, sometimes, the trend is on their side. And usually it's a reflexion of the times we're living and the generation that make the bulk of the current readers.

You see, I'm a nerd from the early 80s. I grew up watching Star Wars, Legend (Ridley Scott's, 1985, film), The Never Ending Story, The Dungeons and Dragons cartoons... I think when you consume those things at an early age, it shapes how you feel about narratives.

Don't get me wrong, please, I love stuff like Crime and Punishment and The Metamorphosis, but fantasy and heroism have a special place in my heart because it talks directly to my inner child, to a part of me that makes me feel truly happy. :)

[Grinning Soul]

Yeah, I remember that typifying their initial relationship under Lee/Kirby. Gotta get those books too.

I think to enjoy them, you have to read them with the mindset of a young teen of the 60s. Then they're fun and fresh and so cool! (Also, don't skip the letters if they're available - Stan Lee's answers are worth it). If you try to read them as someone living on the third decade of the 21st century... they'll look ridiculous and most things will bother you.

It was pretty funny too, in a way. Too bad that kiss didn't lead to a renaissance of their relationship.

Well... it did... It's just not the way we'd prefer it, unfortunately. :(

It's incredibly frustrating. Just hit us with the 11th Life reset already.

Back when I was... I don't know, 15 or something I was playing an LARPG game (I said I'm a nerd!) and the story went so horribly wrong, the game masters decided to use what they called "mending apocalyptic bomb" (sounds funnier in my native language).

I wish I could drop one of those now. :D

You're being incredibly generous, I don't have such a positive outlook on this situation.

I think there are enough hints to support my theories. But I also think they're just my wishful thinking. :D

If you have nothing better to do and you'd want it, we can talk about it. But it's mostly speculative and even if they were intending to do something about it, they can always change their minds so...

There's so much to read, and that's not even counting ancillary books. I think for Jott's sake I'll stick to Uncanny/X-Men/X-Factor, maybe New Mutants at some point.

I find it's sweet you're interested in the couple but... unfortunately, I'm not sure how long they'll actually be together. If they survive Hickman's run, the next writer will probably swing with a vengence and break them apart.

That's why - I'll say it again - I want to see all those tk-flight kisses while I can.

Come on, Duggan, it's been more than 20 years, make it happen! :D

[Grinning Soul]

@Placid Mule: Thanks for sharing! :)

spoilers:

As he's removing her garter. "Scott, remind me again -- why did we agree to this?!" Priceless! :D

end of spoilers

It tells so much about them. It shows their wedding wasn't just their wedding. Awn... :)

[PlacidMule]

@Placid Mule: Thanks for sharing!

spoilers:

As he's removing her garter. "Scott, remind me again -- why did we agree to this?!" Priceless!

end of spoilers

It tells so much about them. It shows their wedding wasn't just their wedding. Awn...

I know! The whole issue is just full of the feels.

[Hizashi]

I know Hizashi is considering reading these books, so I'm trying not to spoil. I'm even considering if I should be posting those panels/pages here at all, actually. I really don't want to ruin the fun for anyone...

As for Morrison's run... well, it's a matter of taste, right? Characterization is important to me too and the characters feel off to me. I'll give you an example: I don't think any one them reacted to Genosha with enough intensity: anger, depression, renewed determination, even PTSD... I don't know, anything like that. They kinda just shrugged it off and it feels weird to me.

I don't want to focus too much on that run, but yes: I get what you mean. And I also get that different fans will enjoy different things.

Personally and generally speaking (it's not a comment on Morrison's run in specific), I prefer when the X-Men are about heroes and heroics. If I want to read dark stories with cynical characters, I can find better ones outside the X-corner of the MU or even comics. But I know some people really love this tone and, sometimes, the trend is on their side. And usually it's a reflexion of the times we're living and the generation that make the bulk of the current readers.

You see, I'm a nerd from the early 80s. I grew up watching Star Wars, Legend (Ridley Scott's, 1985, film), The Never Ending Story, The Dungeons and Dragons cartoons... I think when you consume those things at an early age, it shapes how you feel about narratives.

Don't get me wrong, please, I love stuff like Crime and Punishment and The Metamorphosis, but fantasy and heroism have a special place in my heart because it talks directly to my inner child, to a part of me that makes me feel truly happy.

I appreciate your concern, but don't worry, I'm the type of person that can still enjoy a story even if certain elements are spoiled.

Yes, the X-Men aren't themselves if they aren't heroic, I don't mind the worldbuilding/politics stuff but that was always a side to me not the main dish. I've grown sick of all the evil and twisted "heroes", of the stories that push these beloved characters beyond violent, gory, edgy, dark garbage.

I was born too late; all of my favorite things are from the generation before mine, I grew up in the 2000's but have always loved Star Wars and westerns and old school horror and of course comics.

As this pertains to Jott, Morrison's run was the first complete one I ever read, and it was already over by the time I read it. I didn't experience the scandal and outrage about the psychic affair and subsequent death of Jean. I watched the 90's cartoon before reading any comics, and I had always thought of Scott and Jean together so it was a little odd (understatement) that they weren't in the comics. And I didn't learn about Maddie until a few years after that...

[Hizashi]

I think to enjoy them, you have to read them with the mindset of a young teen of the 60s. Then they're fun and fresh and so cool! (Also, don't skip the letters if they're available - Stan Lee's answers are worth it). If you try to read them as someone living on the third decade of the 21st century... they'll look ridiculous and most things will bother you.

I know that some don't have patience for older comics or media in general, but I just love learning about and seeing those things for myself. I mean, even just the minutia and history of comics themselves is so interesting to me, the story of Scott and Jean will entertain me I'm sure.

Well... it did... It's just not the way we'd prefer it, unfortunately.

I'd call this more a farce.

Back when I was... I don't know, 15 or something I was playing an LARPG game (I said I'm a nerd!) and the story went so horribly wrong, the game masters decided to use what they called "mending apocalyptic bomb" (sounds funnier in my native language).

I wish I could drop one of those now.

I've never had the opportunity to do that (not sure that I would either, I'm quite comfortable at home with family and friends and books) but it sounds like we could use one of those for sure.

I think there are enough hints to support my theories. But I also think they're just my wishful thinking.

If you have nothing better to do and you'd want it, we can talk about it. But it's mostly speculative and even if they were intending to do something about it, they can always change their minds so...

I know it's easy to say "this is what they should have done" after the fact or even during a run, but that's part of constructive criticism and I think that there are certain things that just don't make sense that should be pointed out. I'm sure whatever you're cooking up is better than what we have now, in this regard.

I find it's sweet you're interested in the couple but... unfortunately, I'm not sure how long they'll actually be together. If they survive Hickman's run, the next writer will probably swing with a vengence and break them apart.

That's why - I'll say it again - I want to see all those tk-flight kisses while I can.

Come on, Duggan, it's been more than 20 years, make it happen!

I don't necessarily need them together, maybe being apart for a while would be better than what we have now, but I appreciate them enough to know that they deserve better than being torn apart carelessly. Ideally, their relationship could've been written with their history in mind, and been a familiar foundation in the strange world of Krakoa.

It is a bit of a tragedy that we've been in this era for two years or so and have not one TK-flight kiss to show for it.