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  1. #181
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlacidMule View Post
    I know! The whole issue is just full of the feels.
    It is. And it’s because of all those little things. Even if you’re not consciously aware that they are there, all of them are working to create this mood that make you feel that all the characters are happy, celebrating, being touched by the couple’s love and wedding.

    For them - and for us, the readers, through them - it’s hopeful: “If Scott and Jean can make it, maybe I can too, someday”.

    And the fact that the couple tried to include their family and friends in the celebration just helps creating this. Plus, it’s so like them… That’s exactly what they would do. *sigh* :)

    If they ever break them apart, I hope they don’t retcon their marriage. Because if this issue has never existed… Marvel will show they *really, really* can’t recognise their treasures.

  2. #182
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I appreciate your concern, but don't worry, I'm the type of person that can still enjoy a story even if certain elements are spoiled.
    I have a friend who actually loves spoilers. You have no idea how much stuff he has spoiled for me by saying things before asking if I’ve read/watched it already.

    Luckily for him, I love him. Because I feel like going Dark Phoenix on him every time he does that! :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Yes, the X-Men aren't themselves if they aren't heroic, I don't mind the worldbuilding/politics stuff but that was always a side to me not the main dish. I've grown sick of all the evil and twisted "heroes", of the stories that push these beloved characters beyond violent, gory, edgy, dark garbage.
    Exactly.

    The stories can still be morally challenging without the heroes being a grey mush.

    Have you watched Netflix’s Daredevil series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I was born too late; all of my favorite things are from the generation before mine, I grew up in the 2000's but have always loved Star Wars and westerns and old school horror and of course comics.
    It might be why you feel that way about the X-Men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    As this pertains to Jott, Morrison's run was the first complete one I ever read, and it was already over by the time I read it. I didn't experience the scandal and outrage about the psychic affair and subsequent death of Jean. I watched the 90's cartoon before reading any comics, and I had always thought of Scott and Jean together so it was a little odd (understatement) that they weren't in the comics. And I didn't learn about Maddie until a few years after that...
    I’m not going to lie: the affair is bad. I can justify it narratively, but it’s forced and it should have happened. The main problem for me is not even the affair, though, it’s how they discarded Jean.

    Expendable. Just die ‘cause we you’re boring and Scott is boring and we want him not to be so boring, so we have a kinkier partner that will make him be edgy.

    It’s obviously not the character’s fault. But how can you not be *angry* at that when you’re a Jean Grey fan?

    After Madelyne, after Rachel… She has to be killed off to prop Emma? Then it comes Hope. And then teen Jean. Seriously!

    It’s like: Marvel! For crying out loud! Why do you keep killing the character you keep trying to re-create and/or substitute only to fail? It’s madness, you know?

    It really makes you wonder why they hate Jean so much.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I know that some don't have patience for older comics or media in general, but I just love learning about and seeing those things for myself. I mean, even just the minutia and history of comics themselves is so interesting to me, the story of Scott and Jean will entertain me I'm sure.
    Oh, I love it too. When it comes to Jean and Scott, though, until they get actually married, be ready to be tortured. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I'd call this more a farce.
    I totally get what you mean.

    I know they’re supposed to be together, but narrative principle number one? Show, don’t tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I've never had the opportunity to do that (not sure that I would either, I'm quite comfortable at home with family and friends and books) but it sounds like we could use one of those for sure.
    We weren’t actually on the streets pretending to be vampires. We were mostly at the playground of someone’s building or their apartment. It didn’t work very well, as I said. But it was fun while it lasted. :)

    I mostly played tabletop RPG, though, with my brother and our close friends. We’re still friends to this day, we still talk about those RPG stories and laugh like it had happened yesterday! :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I know it's easy to say "this is what they should have done" after the fact or even during a run, but that's part of constructive criticism and I think that there are certain things that just don't make sense that should be pointed out. I'm sure whatever you're cooking up is better than what we have now, in this regard.
    Okay, I’ll give you one: actual symbiosis.

    spoilers:
    In New Mutants#1, which is written by Hickman himself, we see the characters drinking Krakoa coffee. It's established that they breathe, drink and eat Krakoa. Keep this info for now.

    In the Starjammers’s ship, Mondo and Doug go looking for the biome (where Corsair planted the gate to the Summer House). Doug is holding another flower that the New Mutants will plant and use the gate to go back to Earth.

    - Mondo: I'm gonna play in the dirt. Yeah. This is better. It's good to get that island [Krakoa] off me. It was itchy-- which ain't normal.
    - Doug: Yeah, I think there's more going on than I first thought. It's weird. On the island, I couldn't tell because Krakoa is everywhere and everything... But here in space, there's just the slightest pull between this existing gateway and this gateway flower almost as if…

    Ch'od appears, carrying a machine.

    - Ch'od: They're talking to each other.
    - Mond: Huh?
    - Ch'od: This is a closed biome - carefully regulated. It has to be. So when I started getting alerts that the helium, nitrogen and hydrogen mixtures were elevated, I came down here to see what was wrong with the equiment. But it wasn't the equipment -- it's some kind of reaction caused by their proximity. They want to terraform.
    - Doug: Well, we should be off the ship soon, right?
    - Ch'od: Look here. Do you see these dead pomum? They're a delicacy from my home planet that only ripen once a decade. It took me years to get this environment just right so they would grow here, and this was going to be the first time they were ready for harvest. Now they're dying.

    So Ch'od gives them an ultimatum and Mondo puts the flower inside his belly and the weird effect stops.

    (And since we’re talking about this issue, the way Rahne comes back to life is very different that what she’s feeling right now. She was feeling great and peaceful. Now it seems she finally remembered about her son and she’s a mess).

    Now, I know this probably to set up the colony on Mars. But think about it… what if something like that was happening to the characters - if the fact that they literally consume Krakoa and Krakoa consume their psychic energy in return, if they were becoming an symbiotic organism - would they be able to tell? How would that be affecting their individuality, their critical thinking and their more complex emotions?

    That would also explain this hive mentality they seem to display on some level: most of them feel exactly the same thing about Krakoa, like they're politicians keeping on message. It's creepy and weird... It could be just bad writing. It could be something more.

    end of spoilers

    That’s one theory. I think I have, at least, another eight.

    I know, I know... I really have to stop thinking when I read comic books! :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I don't necessarily need them together, maybe being apart for a while would be better than what we have now, but I appreciate them enough to know that they deserve better than being torn apart carelessly. Ideally, their relationship could've been written with their history in mind, and been a familiar foundation in the strange world of Krakoa.
    I don’t want them being apart for a while…

    Mmm… let me rephrase. Being apart for a few issues so to get some perspective is okay. But actually breaking up and so later they get back together again? Please, no. It will just make fans hate each other even more and Marvel will make a mess out of it in-story as well, which will just harm the characters.

    I love them together. I don’t think there is a better partner for either of them, but if they break up, break them up for good. The very worst thing that can happen is for them to become another meme on-again-off-again couple.

    Really, for me, it’s now or never.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    It is a bit of a tragedy that we've been in this era for two years or so and have not one TK-flight kiss to show for it.
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think there was only one on-pannel kiss, right?

    Until X of Swords, I was really like: so… are those two actually a couple or just good friends playing mummy and daddy for Nathan’s sake?

    I mean, in X-Men #2 Scott tells the Summoner that there is a “single one” whom he loves and wants to be with and I *assume* it’s Jean, but that doesn’t mean they were actually a couple.

    Again, please: show. Don’t tell.

    It doesn’t need to be through tk-flight kisses but, you know, I have an actual champagne bottle in my fridge that I decided I will finally open if I ever see one of those in the current comics and it's not a flashback! :D
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 06-09-2021 at 01:35 AM.

  3. #183
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Uh… Sometimes I’m reading what Scott is saying in this Krakoa era and I go *blink* *blink* And that’s all I’m going to say about it.
    I think this new issue of X-men #21 brought some light to Scott´s pov on Krakoa, I was just like you but I liked the idea of him seeing Krakoa as a place big enough for all dreams to come true, Jean is rubbing her idealist side over him I guess but it´s a really nice way to see it, it´s not that he doens´t see the shadows, he also had doubts about crucible and he should but he also sees the potential overcomes the shadows.

    I wouldn’t. I’m old.
    I guess I just like to be surprised some times even if I don´t like everything.

    Not really. Most writers don’t remember that Jean loves Nathan.
    Agreed they also dont remember Rachel is supposed to be her AU daughter but I guess in her case Jean herself had more doubts about accepting her as her daughter with Nathan being Scott´s child and a baby it was easier.

    I do agree about Madelyne, though, but at the same time, CC kinda sealed her fate when he created her. She didn’t need to look like Jean, have survived a plane crash on the day Jean died in the moon, and share that crazy intimacy with Scott to the point she knew his favourite breakfast in details, completely out of the blue.
    I agree still he could have just taken her out to limbo without destroying her entire character, this felt way too much like, "We want to see Scott and Jean together but he´s married so given we don´t want to paint him as a bad guy lest turn Maddie into a witch who hates her Son and is full of hate" and everything I see something like this it feels like narrative cheating to me because I like to see the drama but it´s nice when the characters are confronted with their choices and make new ones.

    That’s fine. The problem is that some fans (not you) start to try push it to what’s canon. And, that, to me is crazy. The work should speak for itself.
    Agreed, I have seen this kind of thing can become very toxic in fandom because we are no longer working with what´s on the story but what people wanted to do in it and what each fan saw on it.

    Well, Onslaught wasn’t just Charles, though… But, yeah, fans come up with crazier stuff all the time that end up forming those weird echo chambers that get repeated over and over…
    Yes he wasn´t just Charles but he was literally living in his subconscious at that point and mostly just had some memories from Magneto and at that time Mags and Scott weren´t so close for him to talk in such a familiar way about him so imo, I think that was mostly the dark part of Charles showing it´s head but also not really being charles if that makes sense. In a way Onslaught was the Cassandra Nova of the 90´s, they bring to the surface the darkes thoughts of people and to attack them and in this case, he used what he knew would make Jean react in a bad way because he wanted her to call the phoenix power.

  4. #184
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I think this new issue of X-men #21 brought some light to Scott´s pov on Krakoa, I was just like you but I liked the idea of him seeing Krakoa as a place big enough for all dreams to come true, Jean is rubbing her idealist side over him I guess but it´s a really nice way to see it, it´s not that he doens´t see the shadows, he also had doubts about crucible and he should but he also sees the potential overcomes the shadows.
    For me, that was another instance in which I felt like pulling him to a corner and asking, really concerned: “are you feeling okay, sweetie? Do you feel feverish? Did you eat any strange mushroom recently?”

    I honestly don’t know if it’s bad writing or if he’s supposed to read this way, but X-Men #1 had him going on a weird rant about Krakoa and it’s ending in the same tone.

    Yikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I guess I just like to be surprised some times even if I don´t like everything.
    Surprise is a different thing…

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Agreed they also dont remember Rachel is supposed to be her AU daughter but I guess in her case Jean herself had more doubts about accepting her as her daughter with Nathan being Scott´s child and a baby it was easier.
    Oh, yeah. Jean didn’t react well when Rachel showed up. But they have made up countless of times already and the writers don’t seem to remember that either. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I agree still he could have just taken her out to limbo without destroying her entire character, this felt way too much like, "We want to see Scott and Jean together but he´s married so given we don´t want to paint him as a bad guy lest turn Maddie into a witch who hates her Son and is full of hate" and everything I see something like this it feels like narrative cheating to me because I like to see the drama but it´s nice when the characters are confronted with their choices and make new ones.
    That’s the thing. If CC hadn’t written Madelyne to be a substitute for Jean, it would have been easier. But he did, because he had tried putting Scott together with two other characters (in different occasions) and it just wasn’t working because he had created “magic” (Scott’s words) between Scott and Jean and he wanted to write that again.

    But then CC created Rachel and gave her the Phoenix and he realised he liked Rachel more, so he pretty much forgot about Scott (because he never really like him much to begin with).

    So he loves to complain about Madelyne, but he wasn’t doing much with her either before X-Factor was released.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Agreed, I have seen this kind of thing can become very toxic in fandom because we are no longer working with what´s on the story but what people wanted to do in it and what each fan saw on it.
    And then there’s no common ground for discussion, right? It’s just people being upset and shouting at each other. :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Yes he wasn´t just Charles but he was literally living in his subconscious at that point and mostly just had some memories from Magneto and at that time Mags and Scott weren´t so close for him to talk in such a familiar way about him so imo, I think that was mostly the dark part of Charles showing it´s head but also not really being charles if that makes sense.
    He wasn't close, but he could still have an opinion about Scott. I mean, Scott, leading the team, had faced and defeated Magneto several times. I don't think it would be a stretch for Erik to have a level of respect for his intellect while despising his loyalty to Charles.

    So I guess it’s likely that, at some point, he thought: “If that boy had a single individual thought, he would have abandoned Charles and his foolish dream already”. And that might have influenced Onslaught’s view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Yes In a way Onslaught was the Cassandra Nova of the 90´s, they bring to the surface the darkes thoughts of people and to attack them and in this case, he used what he knew would make Jean react in a bad way because he wanted her to call the phoenix power.
    Exactly. It’s like Grey Lensman said: villains lie or stretch the true to absurd levels in order to get what they want.

  5. #185
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    For me, that was another instance in which I felt like pulling him to a corner and asking, really concerned: “are you feeling okay, sweetie? Do you feel feverish? Did you eat any strange mushroom recently?”

    I honestly don’t know if it’s bad writing or if he’s supposed to read this way, but X-Men #1 had him going on a weird rant about Krakoa and it’s ending in the same tone.

    Yikes.
    I was morel like "stop having doubts and take some actions with that law, you are in charge of that goverment too you know" XD

    Surprise is a different thing…
    Agred

    Oh, yeah. Jean didn’t react well when Rachel showed up. But they have made up countless of times already and the writers don’t seem to remember that either. [
    No or they keep telling the same story of Jean seeing her as her daughter everytime so they stay in the same place, narratively speaking while Rachel has a little more interaction with Scott it´s just the general good father/daughter relationship.

    That’s the thing. If CC hadn’t written Madelyne to be a substitute for Jean, it would have been easier. But he did, because he had tried putting Scott together with two other characters (in different occasions) and it just wasn’t working because he had created “magic” (Scott’s words) between Scott and Jean and he wanted to write that again.

    But then CC created Rachel and gave her the Phoenix and he realised he liked Rachel more, so he pretty much forgot about Scott (because he never really like him much to begin with).

    So he loves to complain about Madelyne, but he wasn’t doing much with her either before X-Factor was released.
    I understand this but still I think he failed on the Maddie front, it was just villification of her to make way for the new/classic couple in a underhanded way imo.

    And then there’s no common ground for discussion, right? It’s just people being upset and shouting at each other.
    Exactly at this point I prefer to leave the discussion, it becomes just a whoever screams the loudest or has the most people that agree with them are right and it´s just tiring to participate on that, no matter what you say, you are going to offend somebody XD.


    He wasn't close, but he could still have an opinion about Scott. I mean, Scott, leading the team, had faced and defeated Magneto several times. I don't think it would be a stretch for Erik to have a level of respect for his intellect while despising his loyalty to Charles.
    So I guess it’s likely that, at some point, he thought: “If that boy had a single individual thought, he would have abandoned Charles and his foolish dream already”. And that might have influenced Onslaught’s view.
    I think he respected his skills as team leader and for that same reason respect his loyalty to charles because he has a high oppinion of Charles himself even if he doesn´t agree with him,he´s weird like that XD, so at this point he respected him like he does now Wolverine for example but I dont think he thought much about him beyond that, when he saw Scott creating X-factor to work with human authority and "hunt down mutants" while secretly helping them, which he didn´t know, just made him thought "How can they betray Charles this way" the possibility of them thinking about joining him didn´t even croose his mind. It was until they knew each other as people on Utopia, it´s different to see an adversary and have respect for them to know that person on a daily basis and live in the same neightboorhod.


    Exactly. It’s like Grey Lensman said: villains lie or stretch the true to absurd levels in order to get what they want.
    Sort of I saw it more like a psycological attack to make Jean call the phoenix.

  6. #186
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I was morel like "stop having doubts and take some actions with that law, you are in charge of that goverment too you know" XD
    Seriously: imagine you asked a person at a party: “So, what’s your story?” And you got that for an answer.

    Honestly? I’d assume the dude who gave me that answer was drunk or high or both.

    My boy is not doing well. I’m actually worried for him. :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    No or they keep telling the same story of Jean seeing her as her daughter everytime so they stay in the same place, narratively speaking while Rachel has a little more interaction with Scott it´s just the general good father/daughter relationship.
    Or they do interact but the writers make it weird between Jean and Rachel for… reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I understand this but still I think he failed on the Maddie front, it was just villification of her to make way for the new/classic couple in a underhanded way imo.
    It wasn’t CC's decision. And that’s why he is still upset about it. The thing is… the way he created Madelyine and the way he wrote her led to that.

    If she was just a normal woman, she could have gone to New York with Scott. It would be a bit weird at first for Jean, but she would understand. She actually told that to Scott. As much as she loved him, she was willing to let him go. In fact, she said her goodbye to him.

    It’s late here now, but I’ll try to find it tomorrow to post it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Exactly at this point I prefer to leave the discussion, it becomes just a whoever screams the loudest or has the most people that agree with them are right and it´s just tiring to participate on that, no matter what you say, you are going to offend somebody XD.
    Exactly.

    I don’t need people to agree the whole time. You and I are disagreeing on some stuff, for instance. But, you know, I’m really enjoying this back and forth because it’s respectful and based on the actual stories. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I think he respected his skills as team leader and for that same reason respect his loyalty to charles because he has a high oppinion of Charles himself even if he doesn´t agree with him,he´s weird like that XD, so at this point he respected him like he does now Wolverine for example but I dont think he thought much about him beyond that, when he saw Scott creating X-factor to work with human authority and "hunt down mutants" while secretly helping them, which he didn´t know, just made him thought "How can they betray Charles this way" the possibility of them thinking about joining him didn´t even croose his mind. It was until they knew each other as people on Utopia, it´s different to see an adversary and have respect for them to know that person on a daily basis and live in the same neightboorhod.
    Oh… I meant this thought might have occurred him way back, during the “Brotherhood of Evil Mutants” period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Sort of I saw it more like a psycological attack to make Jean call the phoenix.
    Whatever it was, it’s funny if he thought it would actually work, though, right? Mmm… I’d never really thought about it…

    --
    All right, I’m going to sleep now. Have fun! :)

  7. #187
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    That was a nice visual of them holding hands while Jean announced the new X-Men.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Planet Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  8. #188
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    That was a nice visual of them holding hands while Jean announced the new X-Men.
    You are right. Drawn by Dautermann no less


  9. #189
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Seriously: imagine you asked a person at a party: “So, what’s your story?” And you got that for an answer.

    Honestly? I’d assume the dude who gave me that answer was drunk or high or both.

    My boy is not doing well. I’m actually worried for him.
    Tbh when I read that, I thought that was Hickman giving ideas to Feige or he´s already working with them to bring the X-men to the MCU.

    But well inside story, I liked that response, tbh it´s a nice way of telling someone a complicated story in which he first was the more loyal to Charles dream, then grow dissapointed on him, try his own way for a while and now just being happy there seems to be unlimited potentatial for them now. imo he´s in the honeymoon phase but he´s saying he outgrew Charles dream and now he wants to fight for his own dreams too which is not really a bad thing to have.

    Or they do interact but the writers make it weird between Jean and Rachel for… reasons.
    Yes but I think writers like Kelly Thompson could do something interesting with them, I liked how she tackled Jessica Jones relationship with her baby.

    It wasn’t CC's decision. And that’s why he is still upset about it. The thing is… the way he created Madelyine and the way he wrote her led to that.

    If she was just a normal woman, she could have gone to New York with Scott. It would be a bit weird at first for Jean, but she would understand. She actually told that to Scott. As much as she loved him, she was willing to let him go. In fact, she said her goodbye to him.

    It’s late here now, but I’ll try to find it tomorrow to post it here.
    I wish things had ended this way.

    Exactly.
    I don’t need people to agree the whole time. You and I are disagreeing on some stuff, for instance. But, you know, I’m really enjoying this back and forth because it’s respectful and based on the actual stories.
    Agreed it´s nice to be able to do that, it´s part of why I like CBR so much.

    Oh… I meant this thought might have occurred him way back, during the “Brotherhood of Evil Mutants” period.
    Oh Yes absolutely, back then he was on his "Join the evil brotherhood" but to be fair he said that to practically everybody he suspected of being a mutant, not just the X-men in particular. Even Elektro got the speech once XD.

    Whatever it was, it’s funny if he thought it would actually work, though, right? Mmm… I’d never really thought about it…
    Yes it was a nice try but it was going to fail.

    --
    All right, I’m going to sleep now. Have fun!
    Good night, sleep well

  10. #190
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I have a friend who actually loves spoilers. You have no idea how much stuff he has spoiled for me by saying things before asking if I’ve read/watched it already.

    Luckily for him, I love him. Because I feel like going Dark Phoenix on him every time he does that!
    Oh, for sure you gotta make certain spoilers are okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Exactly.

    The stories can still be morally challenging without the heroes being a grey mush.

    Have you watched Netflix’s Daredevil series?
    I have and I loved the first and third seasons. I can't help but wonder if X-Men would be better suited as a live-action series instead of a film series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    It might be why you feel that way about the X-Men.
    That's a definite possibility, although I generally liked the stuff coming out up until AvX.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I’m not going to lie: the affair is bad. I can justify it narratively, but it’s forced and it should have happened. The main problem for me is not even the affair, though, it’s how they discarded Jean.

    Expendable. Just die ‘cause we you’re boring and Scott is boring and we want him not to be so boring, so we have a kinkier partner that will make him be edgy.

    It’s obviously not the character’s fault. But how can you not be *angry* at that when you’re a Jean Grey fan?

    After Madelyne, after Rachel… She has to be killed off to prop Emma? Then it comes Hope. And then teen Jean. Seriously!

    It’s like: Marvel! For crying out loud! Why do you keep killing the character you keep trying to re-create and/or substitute only to fail? It’s madness, you know?

    It really makes you wonder why they hate Jean so much.
    I've defended Scott when some have placed the blame on him for Jean's mistreatment, and you can see that Morrison gave Marvel an easy way to bring her back, but yeah there's no excuse for benching her for so long. Hope was a wasted character, at least for where I thought they were going with her, and Teen Jean (along with the rest of the TD-O5) was an atrocious mistake.

    I couldn't even begin to hazard a guess about any animosity against Jean. Maybe it's just long, stable relationships they dislike?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Oh, I love it too. When it comes to Jean and Scott, though, until they get actually married, be ready to be tortured.
    Sweet torture, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I totally get what you mean.

    I know they’re supposed to be together, but narrative principle number one? Show, don’t tell.
    That also, but I can't square their current situation with their history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    We weren’t actually on the streets pretending to be vampires. We were mostly at the playground of someone’s building or their apartment. It didn’t work very well, as I said. But it was fun while it lasted.

    I mostly played tabletop RPG, though, with my brother and our close friends. We’re still friends to this day, we still talk about those RPG stories and laugh like it had happened yesterday!
    My friends and I tried to play D&D but we got derailed very quickly. There's a Marvel tabletop RPG coming out I think, I might look into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Okay, I’ll give you one: actual symbiosis.

    spoilers:
    In New Mutants#1, which is written by Hickman himself, we see the characters drinking Krakoa coffee. It's established that they breathe, drink and eat Krakoa. Keep this info for now.

    In the Starjammers’s ship, Mondo and Doug go looking for the biome (where Corsair planted the gate to the Summer House). Doug is holding another flower that the New Mutants will plant and use the gate to go back to Earth.

    - Mondo: I'm gonna play in the dirt. Yeah. This is better. It's good to get that island [Krakoa] off me. It was itchy-- which ain't normal.
    - Doug: Yeah, I think there's more going on than I first thought. It's weird. On the island, I couldn't tell because Krakoa is everywhere and everything... But here in space, there's just the slightest pull between this existing gateway and this gateway flower almost as if…

    Ch'od appears, carrying a machine.

    - Ch'od: They're talking to each other.
    - Mond: Huh?
    - Ch'od: This is a closed biome - carefully regulated. It has to be. So when I started getting alerts that the helium, nitrogen and hydrogen mixtures were elevated, I came down here to see what was wrong with the equiment. But it wasn't the equipment -- it's some kind of reaction caused by their proximity. They want to terraform.
    - Doug: Well, we should be off the ship soon, right?
    - Ch'od: Look here. Do you see these dead pomum? They're a delicacy from my home planet that only ripen once a decade. It took me years to get this environment just right so they would grow here, and this was going to be the first time they were ready for harvest. Now they're dying.

    So Ch'od gives them an ultimatum and Mondo puts the flower inside his belly and the weird effect stops.

    (And since we’re talking about this issue, the way Rahne comes back to life is very different that what she’s feeling right now. She was feeling great and peaceful. Now it seems she finally remembered about her son and she’s a mess).

    Now, I know this probably to set up the colony on Mars. But think about it… what if something like that was happening to the characters - if the fact that they literally consume Krakoa and Krakoa consume their psychic energy in return, if they were becoming an symbiotic organism - would they be able to tell? How would that be affecting their individuality, their critical thinking and their more complex emotions?

    That would also explain this hive mentality they seem to display on some level: most of them feel exactly the same thing about Krakoa, like they're politicians keeping on message. It's creepy and weird... It could be just bad writing. It could be something more.

    end of spoilers

    That’s one theory. I think I have, at least, another eight.

    I know, I know... I really have to stop thinking when I read comic books!
    I completely forgot about that, I have that book. Yeah, that would work just fine for me, but it does make me wonder why no one raised that possibility at the inception of Krakoa as a nation.

    Sometimes seems like we can't use our critical thinking skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I don’t want them being apart for a while…

    Mmm… let me rephrase. Being apart for a few issues so to get some perspective is okay. But actually breaking up and so later they get back together again? Please, no. It will just make fans hate each other even more and Marvel will make a mess out of it in-story as well, which will just harm the characters.

    I love them together. I don’t think there is a better partner for either of them, but if they break up, break them up for good. The very worst thing that can happen is for them to become another meme on-again-off-again couple.

    Really, for me, it’s now or never.
    I never considered that. Okay, if given the choice between those two options? Keep them together, properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think there was only one on-pannel kiss, right?

    Until X of Swords, I was really like: so… are those two actually a couple or just good friends playing mummy and daddy for Nathan’s sake?

    I mean, in X-Men #2 Scott tells the Summoner that there is a “single one” whom he loves and wants to be with and I *assume* it’s Jean, but that doesn’t mean they were actually a couple.

    Again, please: show. Don’t tell.

    It doesn’t need to be through tk-flight kisses but, you know, I have an actual champagne bottle in my fridge that I decided I will finally open if I ever see one of those in the current comics and it's not a flashback!
    I don't even remember if they've done more than talk about their relationship.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  11. #191
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    You are right. Drawn by Dautermann no less

    Jean and Storm are basically the only ones who don't look ridiculous. She's just gotta lose those head shard things.

    I'm glad we have this nice little moment, but this should be happening practically every time they're in the same book.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I know Hizashi is considering reading these books, so I'm trying not to spoil. I'm even considering if I should be posting those panels/pages here at all, actually. I really don't want to ruin the fun for anyone...

    As for Morrison's run... well, it's a matter of taste, right? Characterization is important to me too and the characters feel off to me. I'll give you an example: I don't think any one them reacted to Genosha with enough intensity: anger, depression, renewed determination, even PTSD... I don't know, anything like that. They kinda just shrugged it off and it feels weird to me.

    I don't want to focus too much on that run, but yes: I get what you mean. And I also get that different fans will enjoy different things.

    Personally and generally speaking (it's not a comment on Morrison's run in specific), I prefer when the X-Men are about heroes and heroics. If I want to read dark stories with cynical characters, I can find better ones outside the X-corner of the MU or even comics. But I know some people really love this tone and, sometimes, the trend is on their side. And usually it's a reflexion of the times we're living and the generation that make the bulk of the current readers.

    You see, I'm a nerd from the early 80s. I grew up watching Star Wars, Legend (Ridley Scott's, 1985, film), The Never Ending Story, The Dungeons and Dragons cartoons... I think when you consume those things at an early age, it shapes how you feel about narratives.

    Don't get me wrong, please, I love stuff like Crime and Punishment and The Metamorphosis, but fantasy and heroism have a special place in my heart because it talks directly to my inner child, to a part of me that makes me feel truly happy.

    Yep. Characterization is subjective as well. My idea of out of character for Jean and Scott is not the same as someone else's. And I don't mean readers who are neutral on them overall. Readers who are big fans of the characters as well. We all bring our own sensibilities, experiences, values to the reading experience.

    For example, I didn't read any of these books, but read some about them. I don't think that Scott should be sending out kill squads. I didn't read it to really have a strong opinion on how justifiable it was, but I used to say that I'm covered either way. If the plot left him no choice than it shouldn't have been plotted that way. In 10 minutes, I could plot a story where Peter pretty much has to kill Norman Osborn. That story shouldn't be plotted. What I read about MAN OF STEEL is that the original story had Zod sucked up into the phantom zone with the rest of the Kryptonians. Snyder changed it because he wanted him to snap Zod's neck. To essentially give him no choice. Don't tell that story.

    Same with the affair. IMO, that should be antithetical to the character. I could cite a bunch of stories to support my opinion. At that point I'd read every X book the guy had ever appeared in. Bottom line, though, it's an opinion. Other readers have different opinions.

    What really stood out with Genosha was Beast. Yes, he has often used humor in dangerous or stressful conditions, but I didn't think making jokes where 16 million mutant Is had just been killed was what I consider in character.

    I mentioned emotional warmth before. There was a scene where Jean was going to try to find Logan in space, Goodbye, Charles, I'm leaving now. It read to me as so clinical, none of the warmth you'd expect from these 2 characters where she could possibly going to die. For some reason that remains etched in my mind. I only read it once, in the store. I had stopped buying them after the affair started. But that is how I remember it. I could cite other scenes in the run. Jean's death scene is another. I don't want to get into that because Morrison has deconstructed the relationship to where the dialogue, if you buy his take, isn't necessarily as out of character as I would find it. My view on how Jean or Scott would talk to each other? Try Scott's thoughts as he's about to jump between Nate Grey and Apocalypse or Jean's from that Ages of Apocalypse story in the scans you posted where she winds up going off on Xavier.

    I'm with you about heroes. Now, depends on the character. I used to read Deadpool and Wolverine every month. I didn't read the with the same moral expectations that I would Superman or Captain America. For that matter, Peter Parker or Scott and Jean. When they wanted a morally ambiguous Captain America, they created John Walker, But leave Steve Rogers out of that. They wound up doing way too much of it with characters I really cared about. Eventually I wasn't reading any of the books.

    Depends on what you are looking for. I want all that grey, I'll watch the news or read about it. The real world is filled with it. I don't want the lines blurred between Superman and Luthor. I understand , like in X men, there has always been some degree of it, but I didn't think it used to cross that line. Which, again, is just an opinion. Is a story character assassination or interesting character development? When SINS PAST came out, I saw JMS online defending the story as the latter for Gwen Stacy. Eyes of the beholder. I know what my eyes told me, though. He just completely trashed her character.

  13. #193
    Incredible Member Cyke is Slim's Avatar
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    This was soo cool


  14. #194
    Incredible Member Cyke is Slim's Avatar
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  15. #195
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    That was a nice visual of them holding hands while Jean announced the new X-Men.
    It was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    You are right. Drawn by Dautermann no less
    Thanks for sharing. :)

    I love his art. I hope he’ll draw some issues of X-Men too. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Jean and Storm are basically the only ones who don't look ridiculous. She's just gotta lose those head shard things.
    I’m not a fan of the shard things either, though I understand the concept. He wanted the mutants to “wear their powers” so it would represent mutant fashion. Oh, well, it’s not so bad either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I'm glad we have this nice little moment, but this should be happening practically every time they're in the same book.
    Yes, please. Because otherwise, as cool mutant-royalty as that moment is, it feels almost a bit ceremonial? Which is appropriate for the moment, for sure, but I’d like to see affectionate interaction more often.

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