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  1. #211
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Sorry! I skipped this message yesterday.

    You know, high fashion is, many times, silly.

    More specifically about Scott, I kinda see how difficult it would be to create an outfit for him. There are some things about his outfit that I like, but I don’t like the overall look. The worst, I think, is the blocky colours of the jacket/torso and the fact both the red and the yellows are too bright.

    Just ‘cause it’s for our boy (and because I really like you), I modified his Gala look a bit to change some of the things that bother me (I got rid of the onesie and gave him shirt and pants - because who can pee wearing that? Mr. Summers was supposed to be a practical man! :P - modified the jacket so it doesn’t include gloves and added an opening that makes it look less blocky on his chest, eliminated the red/yellow parts on his torso and darkened the red around his neck).



    EDIT: I know the whole look becomes more "plain", but I think it's appropriate for Scott Summers. That visor is already outrageous enough for him. I think the rest could be toned-down. But it's just my opinion, anyway.

    By the way, feel free to vent about his outfit and his participation on the Gala. I do believe we fans should act as a support group therapy to each other and I know that has been bothering you. I’m here for you, my friend.
    That's cool, and is an improvement, but I don't think there's any salvaging that design. This sort of fashion thing makes sense for some characters but for everyone to partake? And something like this just screams Hollywood elite, and I'm not trying to bring classicism or whatever it's called, but my job is backbreaking field work in Texas heat and I don't want my heroes emulating American elites. It just screams decadence to me you know? I could accept this more easily if it were shorter, if some characters didn't dress so ridiculously, and maybe if WoX's direction had been framed earlier to color this event as more tense then just a party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Don’t get me wrong: they *are* a power couple. They’re the crŤme-de-la-crŤme when it comes to Marvel’s power couples. They look cool and iconic af together. They are mutant royalty and it makes total sense they'd have this ceremonial role. But I’d like to see more than that.
    There should be more than we've had - maybe another Cyclops/Phoenix book is too much to ask, but it's not unreasonable that they get some more panel time together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yeah, Age of Ultron and Endgame weren’t so good. But I loved Civil War for many reasons.

    I think, overall, the movies are fine. Some could better. Some could be much better. But when you compare to other super hero movies from Sony, Fox and Warner? The MCU is in another league.
    Cap's movies were all spectacular - the golden standard of the MCU. Yeah, I don't argue that the MCU is top dog, but there are flaws and constructive criticism is a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I won’t even try right now. I really need some years so I can be more objective, I think. But I’ll probably go back to it eventually.
    Take your time, there's so much to be read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I’m *not* saying that editors don’t do anything at Marvel, but I wonder how much input they actually give to the stories. For instance, do they read the scripts at all? Sometimes I think they don’t.
    Editors (in general) seem to interfere when they shouldn't and stay out of things (like continuity) when they should be involved. That's the sense I get sometimes - I mean, I'm on the outside looking in, I imagine some of them probably share similar problems and have their hands tied by people even higher up on the food chain. It's frustrating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I totally get it.

    What I love about Jean the most is her personality. Her way of seeing the world through kind lenses, of seeing the best in people, or wanting to help. Those things are done nearly perfect in X-Men: Red and I love it.

    I do think Jean is lacking a lot of her temper and impulsiveness in that book, though.

    But you know? I’ve been a fan of hers forever and I’ve been writing since I was a kid. When I first attempted to write her, I though it would be a piece of cake.

    Boy, was I wrong!

    She is *hard*, *super hard*, to get right. She’s so complex and nuanced. She has personality traits that are paradoxical, even though they make sense for her character. Just an example: she is the sweetest creature and she’s generally a practical, reasonable woman, but she does have that explosive temper, that passionate volcanic eruption of emotions - good or bad - that get the best of her sometimes. Try to balance just those traits and you’ll see how difficult it is.

    So, yeah, after I attempted and failed miserably for months, I became more forgiven when it comes to how writers portray her.
    I really wanted to see her temper, to cut loose and Cassandra was the perfect adversary. That first issue had so much promise, and it went nowhere.

    I get the impulse to want to write a favorite character but I'm not sure I could really get into their headspace, I think a healthy detachment can be really productive in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    At first the rules get in the way of the fun, I think. Once you get more familiarised with them, you can focus more on the story and the characters. I hope it works better next time you try.
    Try, try again, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Look, continuity can be a problem when people hold on to details, sure. But when you ignore the more significant stories and characterisation, it becomes a much bigger problem.

    At least, for me. The reason I read a story that has a continuous nature (meaning, it’s not a limited series) is *exactly* because I want the past events to influence the current and the future ones. I’m all for character development, but *show* me that. Don’t just present your take of the character because you decided it was time they changed. No… take me on this journey *with* the character. Make it part of the narrative. Very few things are more compelling - especially when it comes to the X-Men - than character-driven stories.
    Yeah, that's my view as well. There are small unimportant things that can be tinkered with, but characterization and defining story moments should not be messed with carelessly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yes. It’s very easy to de-humanise the person on the other side of the screen, when all you see is what they wrote. The fact the messages became so short and sending them is a matter of clicking a virtual button also play a role.

    It’s a shame that technology has facilitated communication so much but it also affected how we relate and communicate with each other.

    I mean, I think most writers nowadays wouldn’t have the patience to read fan letters from fans back in the 60s anyway. And now that I think about it… I don’t think any of the X-books nowadays have a fan letter section, do they?
    Letter sections are fun, I like them.

    I think it's a matter of good faith, I try to assign "bad" things to misunderstandings or ignorance (on either party) before I think there's malice involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    The only two instances I can remember that I would remotely characterise like that was when Scott talked to the Summoner briefly and when he explained to his father why he is living in the Moon. But both mentions are not necessarily about Jean (or just her), so… Anyway, that is still two more instances that I can think of her referencing their marriage.

    Other than that, Kurt asked Scott what Jean told him about the Crucible, but Scott didn’t know because they didn’t talk about it, because they were busy… Does that count?

    I don’t know, Hizashi. I really don’t remember anything other than that. But my memory has been so bad… please, don’t quote me on that. And if you do remember something about it, please, let me know ‘cause I’d like to read it again.
    I'll try to find them eventually - and I hadn't realized how little Jean had referenced her marriage. I don't think that's gonna be a good thing down the road...
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  2. #212
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That's cool, and is an improvement, but I don't think there's any salvaging that design.
    Like I said… getting Scott into something high fashion would be super challenging. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    This sort of fashion thing makes sense for some characters but for everyone to partake? And something like this just screams Hollywood elite, and I'm not trying to bring classicism or whatever it's called, but my job is backbreaking field work in Texas heat and I don't want my heroes emulating American elites. It just screams decadence to me you know? I could accept this more easily if it were shorter, if some characters didn't dress so ridiculously, and maybe if WoX's direction had been framed earlier to color this event as more tense then just a party.
    I can see Emma wanting to throw the party. I can see Charles and Erik agreeing that they should take the opportunity to - as Duggan put it - flex Krakoa’s power (financial and *ahem* cultural).

    I can see some characters getting super excited about it, some curious, others just willing to be helpful. But not all of them...

    And yes, the extravaganza bothers me too, particularly when I consider how Krakoa became so rich and powerful…

    I don’t want to upset anyone, though. And I think I might have said too much already… It’s so hard nowadays to anticipate how you’ll be understood, particularly when you come from a different cultural background and English isn’t your native language… :(

    But if you want to expand on that and discuss it some more, I’m here.

    --
    In time: one of my American friends told me it’s been super hot where he lives. I hope it’s not as bad in Texas. Please, be careful, okay? Stay hydrated. :)


    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    There should be more than we've had - maybe another Cyclops/Phoenix book is too much to ask, but it's not unreasonable that they get some more panel time together.
    There were plenty of chances during Hickman’s run. He just wasn’t interested in writing her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Cap's movies were all spectacular - the golden standard of the MCU. Yeah, I don't argue that the MCU is top dog, but there are flaws and constructive criticism is a good thing.
    Yeah, the movies aren’t perfect. And I’m very annoying, I think there’s always room for constructive criticism! :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Take your time, there's so much to be read.
    It’s more than that. I also need to be more emotionally neutral, then I think I can be fairer. And that takes time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Editors (in general) seem to interfere when they shouldn't and stay out of things (like continuity) when they should be involved. That's the sense I get sometimes - I mean, I'm on the outside looking in, I imagine some of them probably share similar problems and have their hands tied by people even higher up on the food chain. It's frustrating.
    Yeah… I wonder how much they have to deal with corporate, marketing, retailers, arranging artistis etc…

    Ideally, I’d prefer them to focus on the artistic aspect of comic books: the art and the writing. Particularly the writing. It’s so helpful for the writer to have a good editor working with them.

    Like I said before (in some thread, I don’t remember which), Disney makes so much money from the movies/series/merchandise, they should see comics as an investment. Really, it’s the creative well that will feed the future stories and products where the big money is made, right?

    Then again… that takes vision. Corporate people normally lack that. They only think of how to maximise profit now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I really wanted to see her temper, to cut loose and Cassandra was the perfect adversary. That first issue had so much promise, and it went nowhere.
    Really: I get that. I’d like to see the big showdown too.

    But I don’t know… it just warms my heart that we got something different that was also very Jean-like. I mean, how many showdowns have we seen in comic books anyway?

    Now… if the solution of giving Cassandra empathy will work or not is entire different discussion. We know it won’t, of course, which pains me to say because I can’t stand Cassandra Nova and I wouldn’t shed a tear if Marvel forgot she existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I get the impulse to want to write a favorite character but I'm not sure I could really get into their headspace, I think a healthy detachment can be really productive in that regard.
    I see what you mean. There's the risk of your liking your own version too much, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Try, try again, right?
    As long as there’s a promise of it being fun? If people aren’t enjoying it, then maybe it’s not for you guys. And that's okay too: there are so many other types of games to enjoy with family and friends. :)

    Are you the Dungeon Master by any chance? :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Yeah, that's my view as well. There are small unimportant things that can be tinkered with, but characterization and defining story moments should not be messed with carelessly.
    How can we tell that to Hickman? :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Letter sections are fun, I like them.
    Me too. Especially the ones Stan Lee answered. He was so funny. He said in an interview he used to change the letters a bit. When people wrote “Mr. Lee”, he changed it to “Stan” because he wanted to be more informal with the fans. And then the fans started writing “Stan” on their own. Brilliant! :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I think it's a matter of good faith, I try to assign "bad" things to misunderstandings or ignorance (on either party) before I think there's malice involved.
    Indeed. Most humans beings aren’t evil or bad. They (and I include myself in the group) are mostly ignorant and selfish.

    When you see it from that perspective, it’s less difficult to try to be more tolerant. And, sometimes, when you give people a chance - even the ones you don’t like at first - they surprise you. :)

    But nowadays we are (still including myself here) so impatient, so quick to judge, so defensive, so hostile… It’s really hard to create any constructive dialogue.

    The complicated, often toxic, relationship we see between fans and creators nowadays are just reflex of that…

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I'll try to find them eventually - and I hadn't realized how little Jean had referenced her marriage. I don't think that's gonna be a good thing down the road...
    Well, to be fair, no writer has been very interested in showing Jean making an emotional reference to anything (which the exception of the day she's at the Green Lagoon with Scott), so… I wouldn’t use it as a reference.

    I’m giving the new book an honest try, but judging by Duggan’s interviews about her, I’m not holding my breath.

    I'll gladly come back and eat some crow. Hopefully, while drinking that champagne that is in my fridge awaiting for a non-flashback tk-flight kiss! :D
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 06-11-2021 at 03:35 PM.

  3. #213
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Like I said… getting Scott into something high fashion would be super challenging.
    You did a commendable job. Some things are insurmountable

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I can see Emma wanting to throw the party. I can see Charles and Erik agreeing that they should take the opportunity to - as Duggan put it - flex Krakoa’s power (financial and *ahem* cultural).

    I can see some characters getting super excited about it, some curious, others just willing to be helpful. But not all of them...

    And yes, the extravaganza bothers me too, particularly when I consider how Krakoa became so rich and powerful…

    I don’t want to upset anyone, though. And I think I might have said too much already… It’s so hard nowadays to anticipate how you’ll be understood, particularly when you come from a different cultural background and English isn’t your native language…

    But if you want to expand on that and discuss it some more, I’m here.

    --
    In time: one of my American friends told me it’s been super hot where he lives. I hope it’s not as bad in Texas. Please, be careful, okay? Stay hydrated.
    It's crazy, like we've said, it's so easy these days to attribute bad faith to others. You've been amiable and generous, you've more than earned the benefit of the doubt. Spanish is my first language, but I use English so much it's basically my default.

    It's worse in some of the further West states, and thankfully I've been working mostly indoors. Yeah, hydration is super important, I won't forget that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    There were plenty of chances during Hickman’s run. He just wasn’t interested in writing her.
    I said it before, but the first issue of his X-Men run was solicited the book as the "Saga of Scott Summers" and we didn't get that. At all. There wasn't anywhere near enough Summers-Grey family stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yeah, the movies aren’t perfect. And I’m very annoying, I think there’s always room for constructive criticism!
    My friends occasionally misconstrue my constructive criticism as displeasure with something, but I can like flawed things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    It’s more than that. I also need to be more emotionally neutral, then I think I can be fairer. And that takes time.
    That's fair. Did you want to talk about that era?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yeah… I wonder how much they have to deal with corporate, marketing, retailers, arranging artistis etc…

    Ideally, I’d prefer them to focus on the artistic aspect of comic books: the art and the writing. Particularly the writing. It’s so helpful for the writer to have a good editor working with them.

    Like I said before (in some thread, I don’t remember which), Disney makes so much money from the movies/series/merchandise, they should see comics as an investment. Really, it’s the creative well that will feed the future stories and products where the big money is made, right?

    Then again… that takes vision. Corporate people normally lack that. They only think of how to maximise profit now.
    And I get that, but with creative endeavors they have to understand to stay out of the way of their creative teams. It would be an interesting exercise to take a single writer/creative team and see how different editors effect their quality of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Really: I get that. I’d like to see the big showdown too.

    But I don’t know… it just warms my heart that we got something different that was also very Jean-like. I mean, how many showdowns have we seen in comic books anyway?

    Now… if the solution of giving Cassandra empathy will work or not is entire different discussion. We know it won’t, of course, which pains me to say because I can’t stand Cassandra Nova and I wouldn’t shed a tear if Marvel forgot she existed.
    I guess it didn't need to be a huge thing, but the narrative seemed to promise that it was coming and then it fizzled out. And Cassandra felt weak, a bit dissimilar from the monster Morrison created.

    I didn't like that ending, I disagree with making someone feel something against their will, even for the greater good. Someone forcing their good intentions on others is still an evil act - it's not morally equivalent to genocide, but it's still wrong. Just arrest/trap the villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I see what you mean. There's the risk of your liking your own version too much, right?
    Yeah, of ignoring elements that might be personally unsavory to an individual but help make the character three-dimensional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    As long as there’s a promise of it being fun? If people aren’t enjoying it, then maybe it’s not for you guys. And that's okay too: there are so many other types of games to enjoy with family and friends.

    Are you the Dungeon Master by any chance?
    My friend really wanted to be DM, he'd played before, but I think as a more narratively minded person I could've done a good job. Maybe I'll give it a go sometime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    How can we tell that to Hickman?
    Smoke signal? Coded message in some soup? String cup phones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Me too. Especially the ones Stan Lee answered. He was so funny. He said in an interview he used to change the letters a bit. When people wrote “Mr. Lee”, he changed it to “Stan” because he wanted to be more informal with the fans. And then the fans started writing “Stan” on their own. Brilliant!
    Oh yeah, I read about that too, it was exactly the kind of thing to endear oneself to the fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Indeed. Most humans beings aren’t evil or bad. They (and I include myself in the group) are mostly ignorant and selfish.

    When you see it from that perspective, it’s less difficult to try to be more tolerant. And, sometimes, when you give people a chance - even the ones you don’t like at first - they surprise you.

    But nowadays we are (still including myself here) so impatient, so quick to judge, so defensive, so hostile… It’s really hard to create any constructive dialogue.

    The complicated, often toxic, relationship we see between fans and creators nowadays are just reflex of that…
    It is bigger than creators and fandom, and fandom itself is riddled with problems as well. I guess all we can do is mind our own behavior and encourage others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Well, to be fair, no writer has been very interested in showing Jean making an emotional reference to anything (which the exception of the day she's at the Green Lagoon with Scott), so… I wouldn’t use it as a reference.

    I’m giving the new book an honest try, but judging by Duggan’s interviews about her, I’m not holding my breath.

    I'll gladly come back and eat some crow. Hopefully, while drinking that champagne that is in my fridge awaiting for a non-flashback tk-flight kiss!
    Yeah, apparently Duggan likes Scott, but I've been hurt before. I'm afraid to trust again
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  4. #214
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    You did a commendable job. Some things are insurmountable ;)
    And thatís why I donít blame Dauterman either. I like the concept of making Scottís outfit be similar to a soldier/military attire. I just thought that since the visor was already such a big focal point, the rest should be more discreet. And that onesieÖ I canít imagine Scott looking at the design and not saying: ďSo, Iíll be wearing this the whole night, if I need to pee, I have to take this jacket, which includes gloves, off so I can then remove the onesie?Ē. And then Carnation saying: ďOne must suffer for fashion.Ē And his answer: ďNo, they must notĒ.

    But that would be Scott off Krakoaís tea, not eating Krakoaís mushrooms and not breathing Krakoaís spores. New Krakoan Scott is a-okay with everything. Our adorable control freak boy gave Carnation carte blanche when it came to his outfit and allowed 5 team members to be picked by people who donít necessarily have the first clue about what makes a team work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    It's crazy, like we've said, it's so easy these days to attribute bad faith to others. You've been amiable and generous, you've more than earned the benefit of the doubt. Spanish is my first language, but I use English so much it's basically my default.
    Thank you. Iím happy you see things that way. :)

    The problem is that we never know who is reading those messages... Sometimes people skip whole conversations and pick on something specific from the last post and jump on you because of that.

    Iím interested in friendly, constructive interactions. If thatís not the tone, then Iím just not interested. Itís that simple.

    I donít need to spend my time in these forums because there are so many other hobbies that entertain me. So if things become rude or toxic or so absurd further conversation becomes impossible, itís just not for me. Then I prefer to just spend my time on something else.

    Like I said: it feels like a mine field sometimes. So I prefer to be cautious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    It's worse in some of the further West states, and thankfully I've been working mostly indoors. Yeah, hydration is super important, I won't forget that.
    Iím glad you get to be indoors. I hope it remains the case during the hottest summer days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I said it before, but the first issue of his X-Men run was solicited the book as the "Saga of Scott Summers" and we didn't get that. At all. There wasn't anywhere near enough Summers-Grey family stuff.
    Yeah. We got some semi-incoherent babbling/ranting about Krakoa and his current life that is pretty much repeated over and over. And that was it.

    I still donít know if itís bad writing or Hickman intended to hint something else about it.

    Iím hoping itís not bad writing. Iím hoping thereís actually something affecting our beloved characters.

    Iím going to take this opportunity to talk briefly about another theory.

    So, very first issue of House of X, very first panel. We see a brown haired man and a redhead woman breaking out and crawling away from those resurrection eggs. It becomes clear by the bright red eyes of the man, that he is Scott.

    Xavier is standing in front of three man (two brown haired and the arm of another that is mostly off-panel) and one brown haired woman. Theyíre crawling in his direction, reaching for him, in a somewhat-suplicant way. Heís behaving like heís their deity.

    Now, as I read the other books, I assumed these two first pages were out of chronological order and it was supposed to represent the team from the Orchis mission being brought back. But, thereís no actual chronological indication of that.

    SoÖ what if this happens in actual chronological order? What if our original characters are actually held in stasis in one of those hidden Krakoan habitats like the one Moira inhabits?

    Think about it: wouldn't it make sense that there would be some testing of the resurrection protocols? Wouldnít it make sense to preserve the originals in case the process proved imperfect in the long run?

    If so, weíre actually following the lives of clones that get a increasingly a little corrupted - either by accident or design - every time they die and are brought back.

  5. #215
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    My friends occasionally misconstrue my constructive criticism as displeasure with something, but I can like flawed things.
    Exactly!

    I have such a weird way of thinking that sometimes I surprise myself with peopleís reaction. For me, itís obvious that nothing is perfect so itís obvious that I like imperfect things - or, by definition, Iíd never like *anything*.

    But just because I see flaws or things that could be improved, it doesnít mean I can't enjoy it.

    Do people really think the things they like are perfect? I really canít understand how their brains work sometimes. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That's fair. Did you want to talk about that era?
    Not really. I have lots of mixed emotions (some that I admit have to do with off-panel stuff - which is never a good thing) and I donít think I can make good, impartial analysis. I can, at best, talk about specific instances, but I didnít have anything in mind, actually. Thanks for asking, though. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    And I get that, but with creative endeavors they have to understand to stay out of the way of their creative teams. It would be an interesting exercise to take a single writer/creative team and see how different editors effect their quality of work.
    The thing is that, when youíre writing, youíre too close to the story. Itís hard to have a good perspective. I know this because if I go back to stuff I wrote months before, I read it with completely different eyes and spot things I couldnít see it before.

    I suppose itís particularly more challenging for comic book writers to do that because they write with tight deadlines. So I can imagine that having an editor with good critical thinking, offering suggestions on how to improve the text could be wonderful.

    Not in a dictatorial sense, but in a collaborative sense.

    And itís not just about the quality of the text itself, but sometimes some really weird stuff. I remember that, at some point, Utopia had a Breakworld resurrection machine there!!!

    How was that machine not destroyed during the story? And if it wasnít, how come no one tried to feed Logan to it and see if they could bring their fallen team mates back? Considering his healing factor, maybe he could survive the process. How come Nemesis of all people didnít think of it when the whole theme of the era was about ďendangered speciesĒ and the struggle to protect those last ~200 mutants?

    If I had been an editor, Iíd have said: ďthis machine should be destroyed before the story is overĒ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I guess it didn't need to be a huge thing, but the narrative seemed to promise that it was coming and then it fizzled out. And Cassandra felt weak, a bit dissimilar from the monster Morrison created.
    MmmÖ You see, after AvX and Bendis and Jeanís ressurection story, I was so tired I couldnít stomach X-Men: Red when it came out. One of the reasons was, indeed, Cassandra Nova. I just canít stand her. And the very loose premise of Jeanís dream that those experts helped her build and whatever the heck would be that mutant nation did *not* help either.

    So I actually quit X-Men: Red by issue three, I think. And then I read it all in one go. SoÖ itís very likely it affected my experience. I didnít have the sense they were building for a big showdown, so I didnít get disappointed when it didnít happen. Even though I wouldnít have disliked to see it, particularly when Jean was shown to finally have become more comfortable with her own power, (at least, in theory).

    I honestly get the criticism and I even agree with lots of it. But, emotionally, I canít help really liking the run, even though I have some criticisms of my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I didn't like that ending, I disagree with making someone feel something against their will, even for the greater good. Someone forcing their good intentions on others is still an evil act - it's not morally equivalent to genocide, but it's still wrong. Just arrest/trap the villain.
    On that we disagree, I think.

    As far as I understand, Jean didnít force Cassandra to feel something. Itís not as simple, for instance, as Jean forcing Cassandra to feel the pain she had inflicted on one her victims or to feel what Jeanís feelings about her actions were.

    The feelings that Cassandra experienced were her *own* - Cassandraís - feelings, something she would have experienced by herself had she had the ability to empathise. Now, that doesnít take the free will of a personís away: they can still choose to be evil.

    Jean bet that it wouldnít be the case for Cassandra. She saw Cassandra could be truly redeemed if she could be set free from the prison that being non-empathetic represented to her life.

    Arresting/imprisoning someone would be something done against their will too. How is that more ethical? Itís just punishment, right? Itís done to prevent that person from further acts of violence/wrongdoing, isnít it? And we just hope they will learn better from the experience and not do it againÖ But it leads nowhere when you have someone who is incapable of regret like Cassandra was.

    Jeanís solution could lead to something different, something better. And it wouldnít force Cassandra to behave in a pre-determined way any more than anyone who isnít a psychopath.

    And thatís why I really like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Yeah, of ignoring elements that might be personally unsavory to an individual but help make the character three-dimensional.
    But that depends on how you approach fanfic, right? If youíre just writing it to vent your frustrations, itís a real risk. You make your favourite character look awesome and all the other characters you donít like look horrible.

    Thatís the kind of fanfic I donít like anyway.

    But there are fans who actually make the characters they love more three-dimensional than the versions we see in the official comics.

    A long, long time ago, I read a bunch of fanfic with Scott. Itís not how heís normally written in the books, itís not how I write him. But it was so right, so good. It was awesome!

    The writer made Scott wear his tragic past a bit closer to his skin, you know? Even though he was still the guy who pushes everything inside. It did give him a different flavour that was just spot-on for the character. It was masterful.

    That site where it was hosted disappeared and I never found those stories again. Such a shame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    My friend really wanted to be DM, he'd played before, but I think as a more narratively minded person I could've done a good job. Maybe I'll give it a go sometime?
    Both roles are fun for different reasons. If you ever try being the DM, keep in mind two things:

    1) Donít plan too much ahead, or you run the risk of directing the players. Theyíre the heroes of the story: let them guide where itís going.
    2) Create cool little things for each and every of the player characters. When the players are emotionally involved with the story, they give you so much, the story becomes so much better, itís definitely worth spending some time on it.

    And an extra tip: listen to songs that can inspire you to write that scenario. If you have patience, actually play those songs as you describe a certain scene. You see, good tabletop RPG happens in the imagination of the players and the DM, not the actual map/miniatures/dice.

    Oh, and donít kill your characterís by accident. When I master I always hide the dice Iím rolling and downright save their lives if I have to. They know that if they choose to do stupid stuff I *will* kill their characters, though. But I donít want them to be killed in a random encounter, you know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Smoke signal? Coded message in some soup? String cup phones?
    Letís try all of them! :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Oh yeah, I read about that too, it was exactly the kind of thing to endear oneself to the fans.
    And it created this friendly relationship. Marvel fans back then felt they belonged, they formed this affection towards the company.

    That was my point: itís a smart thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    It is bigger than creators and fandom, and fandom itself is riddled with problems as well. I guess all we can do is mind our own behavior and encourage others.
    Yeah. Itís really a societal problem.

    And youíre right: the only thing we can do is resist joining the majority and hope other people might do it too once they see theyíre not alone.

    I honestly think there are a lot of people out there who enjoy having respectful, constructive interactions but prefer to remain quiet when they are in an environment where such interactions seem impossible.

    I want to lure them out: weíre here, guys. Come join us! :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Yeah, apparently Duggan likes Scott, but I've been hurt before. I'm afraid to trust again ;)
    So, hereís the thing: I really love both Scott and Jean. My avatar is a picture of Jean just because I am a woman. But I actually relate to him more than to her. In a way, it would be more appropriate if his face represented me! :D

    Anyway, Iíve been hurt before when it comes to both characters. But boy, Jean takes the cake here. 20+ years dead, a good 15 of them being kept dead and teased and mocked frequently.

    I am honestly not worried about Scott at all. The worst that can happen to him under a writer that has expressed his love profusely is negligence/bad characterisation. But heíll be front and centre and nothing vindictive will be done against him.

    Heíll be fine. :)

    Jean? I think sheís at a serious risk of being a glorified pretty wallpaper. Yet again.

    But I am giving the book a honest try. Really.

  6. #216
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    And that’s why I don’t blame Dauterman either. I like the concept of making Scott’s outfit be similar to a soldier/military attire. I just thought that since the visor was already such a big focal point, the rest should be more discreet. And that onesie… I can’t imagine Scott looking at the design and not saying: “So, I’ll be wearing this the whole night, if I need to pee, I have to take this jacket, which includes gloves, off so I can then remove the onesie?”. And then Carnation saying: “One must suffer for fashion.” And his answer: “No, they must not”.

    But that would be Scott off Krakoa’s tea, not eating Krakoa’s mushrooms and not breathing Krakoa’s spores. New Krakoan Scott is a-okay with everything. Our adorable control freak boy gave Carnation carte blanche when it came to his outfit and allowed 5 team members to be picked by people who don’t necessarily have the first clue about what makes a team work.



    Thank you. I’m happy you see things that way.

    The problem is that we never know who is reading those messages... Sometimes people skip whole conversations and pick on something specific from the last post and jump on you because of that.

    I’m interested in friendly, constructive interactions. If that’s not the tone, then I’m just not interested. It’s that simple.

    I don’t need to spend my time in these forums because there are so many other hobbies that entertain me. So if things become rude or toxic or so absurd further conversation becomes impossible, it’s just not for me. Then I prefer to just spend my time on something else.

    Like I said: it feels like a mine field sometimes. So I prefer to be cautious.



    I’m glad you get to be indoors. I hope it remains the case during the hottest summer days.



    Yeah. We got some semi-incoherent babbling/ranting about Krakoa and his current life that is pretty much repeated over and over. And that was it.

    I still don’t know if it’s bad writing or Hickman intended to hint something else about it.

    I’m hoping it’s not bad writing. I’m hoping there’s actually something affecting our beloved characters.

    I’m going to take this opportunity to talk briefly about another theory.

    So, very first issue of House of X, very first panel. We see a brown haired man and a redhead woman breaking out and crawling away from those resurrection eggs. It becomes clear by the bright red eyes of the man, that he is Scott.

    Xavier is standing in front of three man (two brown haired and the arm of another that is mostly off-panel) and one brown haired woman. They’re crawling in his direction, reaching for him, in a somewhat-suplicant way. He’s behaving like he’s their deity.

    Now, as I read the other books, I assumed these two first pages were out of chronological order and it was supposed to represent the team from the Orchis mission being brought back. But, there’s no actual chronological indication of that.

    So… what if this happens in actual chronological order? What if our original characters are actually held in stasis in one of those hidden Krakoan habitats like the one Moira inhabits?

    Think about it: wouldn't it make sense that there would be some testing of the resurrection protocols? Wouldn’t it make sense to preserve the originals in case the process proved imperfect in the long run?

    If so, we’re actually following the lives of clones that get a increasingly a little corrupted - either by accident or design - every time they die and are brought back.
    I think Scott's outfit would have been better if it had been inspired by a late 19th century military dress uniform, gold epualettes and all.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  7. #217
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I think Scott's outfit would have been better if it had been inspired by a late 19th century military dress uniform, gold epualettes and all.
    It might have been what Dauterman was going for, actually:



    Some similar elements, right? The shoulder pads (emulating the epaulets), the V-shape form on the torso, the high collar, the super long sleeves, the details of the cuffs.

    The final design just ended up too visually distant when seen in isolation.

    I do love those 19th century uniforms, though, so I'd be all for his wearing something more similar to them. :)

  8. #218
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    It might have been what Dauterman was going for, actually:



    Some similar elements, right? The shoulder pads (emulating the epaulets), the V-shape form on the torso, the high collar, the super long sleeves, the details of the cuffs.

    The final design just ended up too visually distant when seen in isolation.

    I do love those 19th century uniforms, though, so I'd be all for his wearing something more similar to them.
    That one looks more marching band than actual military to me, but I admit there are a gazillion uniforms I haven't seen. The British alone had a LOT more than just the Red for army, Blue for navy that popular culture associates with them.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  9. #219
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    That one looks more marching band than actual military to me, but I admit there are a gazillion uniforms I haven't seen. The British alone had a LOT more than just the Red for army, Blue for navy that popular culture associates with them.
    https://sammlung.ru/?p=24389

    I don't speak Russian, but according to google translate, the text under the picture reads: "The uniform of the Life Guards of the Semyonovsky Regiment, which belonged to Emperor Alexander I. Cloth, silk, cotton fabric, metal thread, sequins, copper, sewing, stamping, gilding, back length: 92.5 cm. 1817. State Hermitage. Stock number ERT-11096".

    Here's the wiki about the regiment, if you're curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon...t#19th_century

  10. #220
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    By the way, here's something I haven't mentioned yet.

    I don't really like Scott's outfit, but I have to give it to Dauterman it was really sweet that he mirrored some elements of both Scott and Jean's outfits:



    The high collars, big X on the chest, the shoulder pads, the long sleeves that become gloves, V-shape going from the shoulders to the lower belly, the yellow/gold bar at the end of this element, the yellow/gold details on the shoes and gloves (the colour of the soles. Her shoes have an X, his gloves have an X. His shoes have a yellow rectangular detail, her gloves have a golden detail). Even his visor and her headband have a similar countour shape relative to their faces. :)



    Yes, I'm gushing. Don't judge. This is the appropriate thread! :D
    Last edited by Grinning Soul; 06-12-2021 at 06:35 AM.

  11. #221
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    https://sammlung.ru/?p=24389

    I don't speak Russian, but according to google translate, the text under the picture reads: "The uniform of the Life Guards of the Semyonovsky Regiment, which belonged to Emperor Alexander I. Cloth, silk, cotton fabric, metal thread, sequins, copper, sewing, stamping, gilding, back length: 92.5 cm. 1817. State Hermitage. Stock number ERT-11096".

    Here's the wiki about the regiment, if you're curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon...t#19th_century
    As an American, what I was taught about Russia in school is laughable. They appear long enough to sell Alaska to the United States, but why, or even WHO isn't mentioned. They appear again shortly in European history long enough to do the scorched earth retreat vs Napoleon, again who is running things there doesn't even get mentioned. The next appearance is in WW1, where the ruler actually gets named, and a brief summary explaining how the war was affected by the revolution. Nothing again until the partition of Poland with the Nazis.

    I learned more about the place on YouTube than in school. I think I might have learned more about Russia from the X-Men than my high school curriculum.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  12. #222
    Mighty Member Grinning Soul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    As an American, what I was taught about Russia in school is laughable. They appear long enough to sell Alaska to the United States, but why, or even WHO isn't mentioned. They appear again shortly in European history long enough to do the scorched earth retreat vs Napoleon, again who is running things there doesn't even get mentioned. The next appearance is in WW1, where the ruler actually gets named, and a brief summary explaining how the war was affected by the revolution. Nothing again until the partition of Poland with the Nazis.

    I learned more about the place on YouTube than in school. I think I might have learned more about Russia from the X-Men than my high school curriculum.
    I think most countries focus more on teaching their own history. We are taught quite a lot "World History", but even this concept is somewhat laughable because it's very European-Centric, then it becomes Europe+USA+USRR. And that's the world for you! :D

    We're all very ignorant when it comes to the rich history/culture of other countries. And that's why I think it's so cool that we live in an era where getting in touch with people from other nationalities is so easy, as well as learning stuff on our own. But I'm a knowledge-Sim, I'm biased. :)

  13. #223
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    And that’s why I don’t blame Dauterman either. I like the concept of making Scott’s outfit be similar to a soldier/military attire. I just thought that since the visor was already such a big focal point, the rest should be more discreet. And that onesie… I can’t imagine Scott looking at the design and not saying: “So, I’ll be wearing this the whole night, if I need to pee, I have to take this jacket, which includes gloves, off so I can then remove the onesie?”. And then Carnation saying: “One must suffer for fashion.” And his answer: “No, they must not”.

    But that would be Scott off Krakoa’s tea, not eating Krakoa’s mushrooms and not breathing Krakoa’s spores. New Krakoan Scott is a-okay with everything. Our adorable control freak boy gave Carnation carte blanche when it came to his outfit and allowed 5 team members to be picked by people who don’t necessarily have the first clue about what makes a team work.
    I couldn't agree more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Thank you. I’m happy you see things that way.

    The problem is that we never know who is reading those messages... Sometimes people skip whole conversations and pick on something specific from the last post and jump on you because of that.

    I’m interested in friendly, constructive interactions. If that’s not the tone, then I’m just not interested. It’s that simple.

    I don’t need to spend my time in these forums because there are so many other hobbies that entertain me. So if things become rude or toxic or so absurd further conversation becomes impossible, it’s just not for me. Then I prefer to just spend my time on something else.

    Like I said: it feels like a mine field sometimes. So I prefer to be cautious.
    It can be a little stressful. I've fallen into those kinds of cycles before, where two people are talking over each other. It's easier than we think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    I’m glad you get to be indoors. I hope it remains the case during the hottest summer days.
    I love my job, it's super fulfilling. I could do without the heat though

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yeah. We got some semi-incoherent babbling/ranting about Krakoa and his current life that is pretty much repeated over and over. And that was it.

    I still don’t know if it’s bad writing or Hickman intended to hint something else about it.

    I’m hoping it’s not bad writing. I’m hoping there’s actually something affecting our beloved characters.

    I’m going to take this opportunity to talk briefly about another theory.

    So, very first issue of House of X, very first panel. We see a brown haired man and a redhead woman breaking out and crawling away from those resurrection eggs. It becomes clear by the bright red eyes of the man, that he is Scott.

    Xavier is standing in front of three man (two brown haired and the arm of another that is mostly off-panel) and one brown haired woman. They’re crawling in his direction, reaching for him, in a somewhat-suplicant way. He’s behaving like he’s their deity.

    Now, as I read the other books, I assumed these two first pages were out of chronological order and it was supposed to represent the team from the Orchis mission being brought back. But, there’s no actual chronological indication of that.

    So… what if this happens in actual chronological order? What if our original characters are actually held in stasis in one of those hidden Krakoan habitats like the one Moira inhabits?

    Think about it: wouldn't it make sense that there would be some testing of the resurrection protocols? Wouldn’t it make sense to preserve the originals in case the process proved imperfect in the long run?

    If so, we’re actually following the lives of clones that get a increasingly a little corrupted - either by accident or design - every time they die and are brought back.
    I thought that was funny too, I'd be okay with this outcome. Someone is gonna air Krakoa's dirty laundry, I think the likeliest candidates are Magneto, Mystique, or possibly even Scott and Jean's X-Men.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  14. #224
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Exactly!

    I have such a weird way of thinking that sometimes I surprise myself with people’s reaction. For me, it’s obvious that nothing is perfect so it’s obvious that I like imperfect things - or, by definition, I’d never like *anything*.

    But just because I see flaws or things that could be improved, it doesn’t mean I can't enjoy it.

    Do people really think the things they like are perfect? I really can’t understand how their brains work sometimes.
    Well, my favorite anime/manga, Fullmetal Alchemist, is about as close to perfect as something can be for me, and I know it has some flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Not really. I have lots of mixed emotions (some that I admit have to do with off-panel stuff - which is never a good thing) and I don’t think I can make good, impartial analysis. I can, at best, talk about specific instances, but I didn’t have anything in mind, actually. Thanks for asking, though.
    Cool, we can put that aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    The thing is that, when you’re writing, you’re too close to the story. It’s hard to have a good perspective. I know this because if I go back to stuff I wrote months before, I read it with completely different eyes and spot things I couldn’t see it before.

    I suppose it’s particularly more challenging for comic book writers to do that because they write with tight deadlines. So I can imagine that having an editor with good critical thinking, offering suggestions on how to improve the text could be wonderful.

    Not in a dictatorial sense, but in a collaborative sense.

    And it’s not just about the quality of the text itself, but sometimes some really weird stuff. I remember that, at some point, Utopia had a Breakworld resurrection machine there!!!

    How was that machine not destroyed during the story? And if it wasn’t, how come no one tried to feed Logan to it and see if they could bring their fallen team mates back? Considering his healing factor, maybe he could survive the process. How come Nemesis of all people didn’t think of it when the whole theme of the era was about “endangered species” and the struggle to protect those last ~200 mutants?

    If I had been an editor, I’d have said: “this machine should be destroyed before the story is over”.
    Exactly, that's the entire point of an editor. Sometimes you can tell when the editors are coasting, same as when they meddle too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Mmm… You see, after AvX and Bendis and Jean’s ressurection story, I was so tired I couldn’t stomach X-Men: Red when it came out. One of the reasons was, indeed, Cassandra Nova. I just can’t stand her. And the very loose premise of Jean’s dream that those experts helped her build and whatever the heck would be that mutant nation did *not* help either.

    So I actually quit X-Men: Red by issue three, I think. And then I read it all in one go. So… it’s very likely it affected my experience. I didn’t have the sense they were building for a big showdown, so I didn’t get disappointed when it didn’t happen. Even though I wouldn’t have disliked to see it, particularly when Jean was shown to finally have become more comfortable with her own power, (at least, in theory).

    I honestly get the criticism and I even agree with lots of it. But, emotionally, I can’t help really liking the run, even though I have some criticisms of my own.
    That's fair, my personal issues with the book aside, I can see that there were some interesting ideas. Tom Taylor has never been my favorite writer, but he is capable, I'm liking what he's done so far with Nightwing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    On that we disagree, I think.

    As far as I understand, Jean didn’t force Cassandra to feel something. It’s not as simple, for instance, as Jean forcing Cassandra to feel the pain she had inflicted on one her victims or to feel what Jean’s feelings about her actions were.

    The feelings that Cassandra experienced were her *own* - Cassandra’s - feelings, something she would have experienced by herself had she had the ability to empathise. Now, that doesn’t take the free will of a person’s away: they can still choose to be evil.

    Jean bet that it wouldn’t be the case for Cassandra. She saw Cassandra could be truly redeemed if she could be set free from the prison that being non-empathetic represented to her life.

    Arresting/imprisoning someone would be something done against their will too. How is that more ethical? It’s just punishment, right? It’s done to prevent that person from further acts of violence/wrongdoing, isn’t it? And we just hope they will learn better from the experience and not do it again… But it leads nowhere when you have someone who is incapable of regret like Cassandra was.

    Jean’s solution could lead to something different, something better. And it wouldn’t force Cassandra to behave in a pre-determined way any more than anyone who isn’t a psychopath.

    And that’s why I really like it.
    I guess, looking back on it, it works for those characters - Cassandra is a monster of course, she hardly deserves mercy. I guess I just don't like the idea of introducing something like that forcibly to someone else - the point of punishment is for the wrongdoer to see the error of their ways, they have to come to that conclusion themselves. If we developed some way to make people empathetic who weren't before, it should still be their choice to go through with it. Obviously, a person like that who is also a criminal would only be able to choose that or remain imprisoned but still.

    Also, I imagine a process like that could prove to be too much for some and lead to unfortunate outcomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    But that depends on how you approach fanfic, right? If you’re just writing it to vent your frustrations, it’s a real risk. You make your favourite character look awesome and all the other characters you don’t like look horrible.

    That’s the kind of fanfic I don’t like anyway.

    But there are fans who actually make the characters they love more three-dimensional than the versions we see in the official comics.

    A long, long time ago, I read a bunch of fanfic with Scott. It’s not how he’s normally written in the books, it’s not how I write him. But it was so right, so good. It was awesome!

    The writer made Scott wear his tragic past a bit closer to his skin, you know? Even though he was still the guy who pushes everything inside. It did give him a different flavour that was just spot-on for the character. It was masterful.

    That site where it was hosted disappeared and I never found those stories again. Such a shame.
    There's some good stuff out there for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Both roles are fun for different reasons. If you ever try being the DM, keep in mind two things:

    1) Don’t plan too much ahead, or you run the risk of directing the players. They’re the heroes of the story: let them guide where it’s going.
    2) Create cool little things for each and every of the player characters. When the players are emotionally involved with the story, they give you so much, the story becomes so much better, it’s definitely worth spending some time on it.

    And an extra tip: listen to songs that can inspire you to write that scenario. If you have patience, actually play those songs as you describe a certain scene. You see, good tabletop RPG happens in the imagination of the players and the DM, not the actual map/miniatures/dice.

    Oh, and don’t kill your character’s by accident. When I master I always hide the dice I’m rolling and downright save their lives if I have to. They know that if they choose to do stupid stuff I *will* kill their characters, though. But I don’t want them to be killed in a random encounter, you know?
    See, mercy from the DM seems like an open secret, it's a good thing. I think you have the right approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Let’s try all of them!
    Excellent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    And it created this friendly relationship. Marvel fans back then felt they belonged, they formed this affection towards the company.

    That was my point: it’s a smart thing to do.
    It'd be nice to get that back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yeah. It’s really a societal problem.

    And you’re right: the only thing we can do is resist joining the majority and hope other people might do it too once they see they’re not alone.

    I honestly think there are a lot of people out there who enjoy having respectful, constructive interactions but prefer to remain quiet when they are in an environment where such interactions seem impossible.

    I want to lure them out: we’re here, guys. Come join us!
    It's fun to talk like this even or maybe especially when we have differing points of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    So, here’s the thing: I really love both Scott and Jean. My avatar is a picture of Jean just because I am a woman. But I actually relate to him more than to her. In a way, it would be more appropriate if his face represented me!

    Anyway, I’ve been hurt before when it comes to both characters. But boy, Jean takes the cake here. 20+ years dead, a good 15 of them being kept dead and teased and mocked frequently.

    I am honestly not worried about Scott at all. The worst that can happen to him under a writer that has expressed his love profusely is negligence/bad characterisation. But he’ll be front and centre and nothing vindictive will be done against him.

    He’ll be fine.

    Jean? I think she’s at a serious risk of being a glorified pretty wallpaper. Yet again.

    But I am giving the book a honest try. Really.
    That's fair, I can see why there's concern from Jean's fans. I'll worry for both of them.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  15. #225
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinning Soul View Post
    Yeah, but that¬’s my point¬… the whole answer is given to us, the readers, not the guy that¬’s asking.
    If you look at that answer through Feige¬’s eyes, it is kinda non-sensical.
    So, in-story, why would Scott be answering like that? It¬’s either bad writing or he¬’s really not well. Considering the very first issue and that weird conversation with Lorna, I¬’d be inclined to say it¬’s the latter.

    "It's something, isn't it? You know, I remember the day my son was born-- I remember the sheer terror or it. Not the idea of being a father -- my god, I loved that. I had waited my whoe life for that... It was thinking about what kind of world I had brought this precious, innocent child into. The horrors that my beautiful boy would have to endure simply because he was my son -- of my blood. Like me. And the worst part was I was right. He did suffer. He did... and there was nothing I could do to stop it. All I could do was endure it. Try not to surrender. Try not to give up. I'll tell you, it was a close thing-- surrendering to the world. Very close. But I held on. And, look, I have you, and your father, and my family... my boy. And we are home. Because I believed in a thing... and now it's real."

    Not to get into the issue that he wasn't there when he son was born (and how he actually reacted when he found out), but the part I underlined? That's the definition of magical thinking!

    "Magical thinking, the belief that one¬’s ideas, thoughts, actions, words, or use of symbols can influence the course of events in the material world. Magical thinking presumes a causal link between one¬’s inner, personal experience and the external physical world." (source: https://www.britannica.com/science/magical-thinking)

    I’m telling you: my boy is not okay.
    It could be two things: Scott is not acting like himself or this is Hickman¬īs take on Scott¬īs character given he was talked about as a "dreamer" in some interviews I guess they see this as him just giving his reason¬īs for wanting to be part of Krakoa, I personally don¬īt see Scott as a dreamer at all, he¬īs always been very practical and the dream thing involved mostly his belief in Charle¬īs dream of mutants and humans coexisting together and him trying his best to make that dream a reality and that same intensity is being now put to make Krakoa work as an idea and a country who gives the opportunity to others to do their own thing, not so long ago Percy did something similar with Woverine, he sees Krakoa as a second chances opportunity" not because it will magically became that possibility but that in could be an opportunity to change things for the better.

    I think this characterization could be done to show how much Scott has buy into Krakoa¬īs as a dream but also given the obvious shadows thrown into the creation of Krakoa, it also can be a deconstruction and criticism of Scott and the X-men in general, keeping that belief in Charles¬īs dream, Krakoa seems to be a situation in which they are confronted with the idea of "What if the dream changed" "Will they still believe in Charles" the answer so far seems to be YES but one wonders if thatīs their actual will OR something else is happening.

    They certainly could. If they remembered that they talked and Jean apologised before the wedding and by the time of the wedding, they were already hugging and Rachel is calling her ¬“mom¬” and Jean is okay with it.
    Yes I liked that scene and Rachel did took Jean¬īs last name as a tribute to her after she died so imo they are in good terms and are close it¬īs just that we never see them interact with each other and I guess it has to do with writers being more inclined in showing the father/daughter relationship than the Mother/Daughter one but this is just my theory.

    Well, I don’t, cause I’m a fan of the couple. But I would have preferred if Scott and Madelyne (if had she had been a character that had nothing to do with Jean from the start) had split up amicably, because she would have understood that Scott had never been over Jean and as crazy as it was his first love was alive again and he couldn¬’t help wanting to be with her.

    But¬… CC wrote Madelyine to substitute Jean¬… He was the one who trapped that character from its inception. Then he got tired of the character because found another way to write Phoenix again.

    Like I promised:



    NOTE: They weren't a couple back then. Jean is kissing him for old times' sake. It's a real good-bye, last chance, I-love-you-but-I-have-to-let-you-go, closure, kind of thing.
    I thought this was Maddie saying goodbye to Scott not Jean, sorry I missunderstood, I think it would have been better for Madelyne to say goodbye to Scott and both of them keep custody of Nathan than her made into the globin Queen. I think that ending would have been better and would have allowed for Jean and Scott to be together again while also letting Maddie have her own life.

    I actually find it’s quite rare to be able to do it here… Sometimes it feels like I’m walking on a mine field.

    But the good interactions make me really happy.
    Me too and believe me there are forums where you literally have to take a stance or whatever you say is going to become a disccussion so I am grateful CBR still leaves room for debate and the moderators help in them not ending into disccussions of the person instead of the story.

    Oh, yeah¬… I’m not judging. I was just saying that perception of Scott could have originated from that period. Because like we were talking about, when villains are saying stuff, they probably have an agenda, so it’s not necessarily true, or the impartial truth.
    I guess I will revive an old debate.

    I donīt think thatīs what happened with Onslaught, he was part of Charles subconscious, Charles absorbed Magnetoīs memories, not his personality or point of view and Charles anger was the one who let Onslaught get out of his mind, so who was talking there was Charlesīs dark persona not Magneto, because Magneto at the time was in a coma and uterlly unaware of what was happening. Sure the X-men and Avengers were quick to blame him for Onslaught because that was better than blaming Charles but I think in the end is Charles the one who wanted to accept his responsibility in the whole issue and part of that was accepting that Onslaught was his dark self being given life in the form as astral energy and thatīs why he accepted to be arrested by Valerie Cooper even if the X-men were ready to defend him.

    This was not the first time Charles dark persona made his apparition, Claremont already had involved some storylines around this idea but Onsalught was the first time it became a real danger for everybody.

    I donīt think Charles himself is this dark persona but itīs a fact he doesnīt deal with his darker thoughts, he sends them to the background of his mind and they just get bigger and bigger until Charles stops being able to control them and given his power this can become an actual danger to the people around him, something heīs quite aware off and thatīs why he begins that cycle again, of suppresing his darker impulses because he feels the need of showing himself as a person with pure intentions at all times for his dream and mission to become a reality but the problem is that he still is human so the bad thoughts that come so easily to mind are also part of him and he tries his best to forget or erase them from his mind.

    In a way I think thatīs why he and Magneto formed such a strong friendship because Magneto doensīt have to see him as perfect to respect or admire his pov, Charles can show this part of him around him because he doesnīt expect him perfect and flawless while still accepting they see the world in different ways and that part of their friedship has always interested me.


    So, very first issue of House of X, very first panel. We see a brown haired man and a redhead woman breaking out and crawling away from those resurrection eggs. It becomes clear by the bright red eyes of the man, that he is Scott.

    Xavier is standing in front of three man (two brown haired and the arm of another that is mostly off-panel) and one brown haired woman. They’re crawling in his direction, reaching for him, in a somewhat-suplicant way. He’s behaving like he’s their deity.

    Now, as I read the other books, I assumed these two first pages were out of chronological order and it was supposed to represent the team from the Orchis mission being brought back. But, there’s no actual chronological indication of that.

    So… what if this happens in actual chronological order? What if our original characters are actually held in stasis in one of those hidden Krakoan habitats like the one Moira inhabits?

    Think about it: wouldn't it make sense that there would be some testing of the resurrection protocols? Wouldn’t it make sense to preserve the originals in case the process proved imperfect in the long run?

    If so, we’re actually following the lives of clones that get a increasingly a little corrupted - either by accident or design - every time they die and are brought back.
    I actually thought this was a possibility at first I think Hickman let this scene at the beggining because he will get back to it in the middle of the story, I think this scene shows in a interesting way the shadows Krakoa is hidding.

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