Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Grinning Soul]

Yes! They were odd. I don't think they'd exist today. The Hildebrandt art is great in this series!

I don't suppose they would. I was never offended, but I don't miss them, to be honest. :D

I believe there were 4 issues and Jean appeared in all of them. One as a solo pin-up, one in a group picture (Scott was there too). I'll try to find the other one where the couple was together.

[EDIT]: Yes, the art is beautiful.

[Havok83]

I love Duggan's take on them

[TheDeadSpace]

Honestly, I feel like there isn't enough for me to form an opinion yet. I'm still not sure how their dynamic will be in X-Men. They've had quite a few small parts that seem decent, like in Cable, but how he's going to handle them with a bigger focus is something I'm unsure of. Also, I'm not even sure I'm a fan of his Scott. Something seems off if I'm being honest.

Well, here's hoping for the best.

[Grinning Soul]

Thanks for sharing, Havok83. Let's hope we get more of their being affectionate with each other in the X-Men book. :)

Honestly, I feel like there isn't enough for me to form an opinion yet. I'm still not sure how their dynamic will be in X-Men. They've had quite a few small parts that seem decent, like in Cable, but how he's going to handle them with a bigger focus is something I'm unsure of. Also, I'm not even sure I'm a fan of his Scott. Something seems off if I'm being honest.

Well, here's hoping for the best.

Most characters read off to me. But I prefer Duggan's take on Scott than Hickman's. I'm glad Hickman won't be writing him on a frequent basis anymore.

Now... Are you reading Way of X?

spoilers:

We know there is at least one thing actually affecting the behaviour of the mutants in Krakoa. I'm not sure it's just Onslaught too. I still think there's something very fishy with the resurrection protocols and, honestly, if we don't get a really good explanation of why those characters are being so weird and the new X-men book is disappointing, I'm going on a break from comic books.

end of spoilers

[Grinning Soul]

Our couple raising Nathan:



It breaks my heart they were still not allowed to have it in their own time, like Jessica Jones and Luke or Sue and Reed.

[Hizashi]

ThereÂ’s only been lots of setting up new villains/threats, but because thereÂ’s been so many, they also appear too sporadically to feel like a real threat.

So remember I mentioned how convenient things are when they want stuff to work in favour of Krakoa? Well, the same could be said when they want to set up new enemies. Look at X-Men #3 (and Hordeculture)Â… Cyclops was defeated by 2 old ladies who do water aerobics and yoga 4 days a week. I mean, I think thatÂ’s all I have to say about the matter, isnÂ’t it?

I hated that so much. Everything's a joke.

I get lots of references about the US popular culture, political process and stuff like that, but not everything, unfortunately. But, you know, when it doesn't happen, I see it as an opportunity to learn more.

So, if theyÂ’re pretty terrible, weÂ’re not those drinks. I donÂ’t know what we are. But weÂ’re not Coca-Cola or Pepsi either.

I like Mr. Pibb. Honestly, I probably drink coffee more than anything else, besides water.

Their own incompetence when it comes to smaller matters? HankÂ’s screw up with Terra Verde? Allowing Nimrod to be activated?

When it comes to the last one, IÂ’m not even sure if itÂ’s supposed to be a setback. They way they dealt with it was so incredibly idiotic, itÂ’s like they wanted it to happen.

I donÂ’t really know. HickmanÂ’s run really confuses me: I can never tell what is bad writing and what is intentionally weird. And I keep saying it because whenever IÂ’m talking about this run, it seems unavoidable that weÂ’ll eventually talk about some element that brings this feeling up again. Which tells you that are way too many of those elements in the main story.

Absolutely, I get this sense all the time. Some of the fandom that is high on this era ignore this, this isn't an issue for them.

That is exactly what I was telling Lucy in the other thread: it looks like they (Moira, Xavier and Erik) want to get the human-mutant conflict started ahead of time when humans are less technologically advanced. Maybe thatÂ’s what mutants will do differently this time and theyÂ’ll get to win for a change.

Now, while that would make senseÂ… this was supposed to be the X-men!

Excuse me while I shout in anger internally and knockout my inner Dark Phoenix so I donÂ’t start burning stuff based on a mere possibility. Also because, letÂ’s face it, that motivation would actually make too much sense for those books!

Anyway, it doesnÂ’t matter how awesome Storm is or how much impact she will have on the lives of the inhabitants of the Solar System. Conceptually speaking it was a coup and it is a dictatorship, by definition. And people being okay with it is just scary to me.

Because even if Storm is a benevolent dictator, if sheÂ’s dragged into an intergalactic war, Earth will be dragged into it as well, without ever having a say. You see, now theyÂ’re not just a backwater divided planet anymore. TheyÂ’ve become part of a stellar system that controls a new resource that can affect intergalactic economy.

Am I the only one who sees the many problems here? We donÂ’t know if the writers will explore that or not. But anyone living in the 616 Earth would be justified to be worried about that and it would have nothing to do with prejudice against mutantsÂ… JeezÂ…

But I like said many times: I have to learn to turn off my brain when I read comic books.

Everything you said makes sense - and the metal resource thing is yet another plot device that strains my suspension of disbelief.

I'm of the opinion that if something on this scale is used but the implications are ignored, that's bad writing.

Not every character can hold a book on their own. Elektra is an antagonist, she was never supposed to be an anti-hero.

But hereÂ’s the thing: a strong character doesnÂ’t need to be the protagonist to be strong. Elektra was a strong character on her own. Forcing her to be in this position of an anti-hero is already detrimental to her character, but to replace the actual hero with her? I meanÂ… arghÂ…

Pick or create a female character who is already a hero/antihero and give her a book. Get a good writer to write her, get a good artist, take the book seriously (like, donÂ’t make it about shopping and being fabulous during the day and fighting crime during the night - ugh).

And understand that female, non-white, non-heterosexual characters might not become popular but thatÂ’s not because of those characteristics. How many male, white, heterosexual characters were created and were a big failure?

This kind of biased thinking is so tiring.

This is a refreshing point of view, I don't see people talk about this enough. I don't know for sure what it is, but it seems that female villains aren't allowed to stay that way - over at DC Catwoman, Harley Quinn, and Poison Ivy are either considered heroes or anti-heroes now. Why? The latter two definitely killed innocent people.

Oh, thanks for letting me know his opinion. That probably gives me a better indication that it is not the time for me to give the books a try again, than some of the reviews I read.

Poor, beloved Matt whom I miss so muchÂ…

What would you do with Matt if you had creative control? Hmm, when was the last time Daredevil crossed over with X-Men?

Because outside the comics thatÂ’s *all* they do with Jean. Every cartoon or film wants to do their own version of the DPS because itÂ’s such an awesome story, but then people think thatÂ’s all Jean is aboutÂ… *sigh*

True. Fox found a way to screw it up twice.

I wondered a lot about that during that time. The thing is: Jean had to be dead for all that stuff to happen the way it did, for as long as it did. And thatÂ’s why it was so infuriating.

But that also shows you the power of this character. And once you realize that, thereÂ’s no escaping of being completely mind-boggled that Marvel refuses to let this character shine.

Jean is not a strategic genius. But in terms of being inspiring, she is the Steve Rogers of the X-Men, except, if she asked Steve to support her, he would. He has. Everyone she ever asked to help has helped her because she is that impressive, that trust-worthy.

She is the soft power, the loving substrate that keeps them together, that makes sure the heart of the X-Men are in the right place even if theyÂ’re making the wrong or the least effective decisions.

And why IÂ’ve said that Krakoan Jean reads like a zombie.

I felt Jean was pretty crucial into helping Scott become the man that mutantkind could rally behind during that era, and if they'd been together during that? I think you're right about the era not lasting as long. Maybe there's no Schism either.

More than a punch-bag, he wasnÂ’t Scott Summers. Where did his fear about the destructive nature of his power go? He went to the future and *puff* thatÂ’s gone. CC was still writing it as an issue for him, even though he had already learnt to deal with it to some extent!

I could go on, but I think I can rest my case here already.

And you know what’s worse? Scott was actually one of the best characterisations of them! Imagine the others… The thing is the writers (starting with Bendis) threw everything that made those characters those characters out of the window to write them whatever the hell they wanted and the excuse was: “oh, but they time-travelled and they saw their own lives and that changed them”. *sigh*

That's the epitome of lazy writing. It's a shame about the writing, because that era had some great artists - Stuart Immonen and Mark Bagley are favorites of mine. I think Jorge Molina was involved too?

I know the feeling. I donÂ’t read DC books because they reset their universe way too often for my taste. But, you know, I have other hobbies and I can entertain myself with other stuff.

If this X-Men book isnÂ’t amazing for either Scott or Jean (hopefully both of them) I think IÂ’m just walking away, really. ItÂ’s the only heroic stuff in the whole lineÂ… And I want to read heroes being heroes.

I've always been able to tolerate the reboots because most of them happened before I read regularly. And I didn't start picking up DC until they did their line-wide soft-reboot with Rebirth, because I didn't like most of what they were doing with The New 52. The Rebirth Era was really good in the initial years, but they've dropped the ball in a few ways as of late.

Still, if Marvel could take that approach with the X-Men, a soft reboot that addresses the character issues while keeping the elements of Krakoa that readers like, I think the line would be in much better shape. Cut the number of books down, tighten the writing, strengthen the character work, and I'd be happy.

[Grinning Soul]

I hated that so much. Everything's a joke.

I love humour. But not at expense of characterization.

I totally buy that Scott would believe the old lady when she said he hurt her - he does have a good heart, of course he would stop the fight and go check on her. But still, to be defeated? Come on! He might not be one of the best martial artists of the MU, but he’s pretty damn good.

And that happened *after* they took out Sebastian Shaw… *Blink. Blink*

After that, I cannot blame Emma for not even trying to fight those monsters, can I? :P

I like Mr. Pibb. Honestly, I probably drink coffee more than anything else, besides water.

So I checked the supermarket site and they actually have Dr. Pepper! No, Mr. Pibb, unfortunately. But I added a can of Dr. Pepper to my list and try it out next Saturday. See? Trying new things because of my ignorance. Exposure is everything. :)

Thanks, my friend. :)

Absolutely, I get this sense all the time. Some of the fandom that is high on this era ignore this, this isn't an issue for them.

Being honest here? I envy them a little. They get to enjoy so much more in life. My over-active brain often gets in the way. It spares me quite some suffering as well for other reasons, so I’m not whining. It’s a fair trade-off, I guess. Still… Oh well, you probably know what I mean.

Everything you said makes sense - and the metal resource thing is yet another plot device that strains my suspension of disbelief.

I'm of the opinion that if something on this scale is used but the implications are ignored, that's bad writing.

Yeah. It’s exactly what you said: I have a limit for my suspension of disbelief. I do feel it gets strained too. Now, I confess that this limit is somewhat elastic: the better the story, the more I can pretend certain things are not annoying me.

But come on… everything is so convenient all the time for both successes and failures that it doesn’t really make much sense to actually follow the story, you know? I feel like saying: “Cool, how does it end, then?” Since everything in between will be what it has to be regardless of logic or difficulties, what’s the point of getting invested?

This is a refreshing point of view, I don't see people talk about this enough. I don't know for sure what it is, but it seems that female villains aren't allowed to stay that way - over at DC Catwoman, Harley Quinn, and Poison Ivy are either considered heroes or anti-heroes now. Why? The latter two definitely killed innocent people.

Because if they become popular the publishers want them to have bigger roles. The role of the antagonist is always smaller in exposure time (bigger for narrative purposes) than the supporting roles. The friend or ally of the protagonist appears more than the antagonist.

And once the antagonist is defeated, they either die or end up in jail or will take some time recovering from the defeat.

There’s also the possibility that they’ll want this female character to become the love interest or, at least, a fling for the male hero, of course…

Anyway, Elektra was not intended to be a villain, but she was a curious antagonist for Daredevil. In her first appearances, she was both going against him and saving his hide. And the fact they had their personal history just made it even more juicy.

I don’t want her to be a protagonist. I mean, I’m sure you can tell some stories in which she is the protagonist. But I don’t think there are that many to carry an ongoing book and I’m fine with it. I don’t think she’s any less interesting and complex or weaker as a character for it.

What would you do with Matt if you had creative control? Hmm, when was the last time Daredevil crossed over with X-Men?

So… this might not be an interesting answer but I believe a good story doesn’t need to be revolutionary to be good. Especially when it’s character-driven. I wouldn’t do anything crazy with Matt: I’d keep him with his secret identity, working as a defense lawyer and being a vigilante.

I’d create new and compelling enemies and, in-between fighting agaisnt them, I’d tackle some stories with a more social root. I think Daredevil is perfect for it: he doesn’t have super flashy powers that get him too busy saving the world. He gets too be with the normal people in the MU and because of his senses, he can feel people’s pain like few other heroes.

I’d also do some deep research to be able to give his work as a lawyer and the injustices of the penal system a bigger weight in the stories. I find this part so fascinating and I always wished there was more of it in the comics.

I’d also abuse the narrative boxes and the description of his senses. One of my favourite DD writers is D. G. Chichester just because of his portrayal of Matt and how he explores his senses and inner dialogue. The stories themselves are so so, but that part is just too yummy for my palate! Delicious!:)

When it comes to romances, I’ll let him be alone for a while. After what happened to Mila, I think he needs to mend his heart and mind before he gets entangled in yet another relationship. I’d put him to actually treat that snake pit (like Stick called) of a mind of his for a change.

You see? With all those things to juggle, I think you can write some really compelling stories without many crazy twists and turns…

True. Fox found a way to screw it up twice.

And it’s not that hard, right? The 90s cartoon got it pretty right.

But you know what those films never get right? The most important thing about the story: the interpersonal relationships. It only works when you get them right.

It starts with the Phoenix Saga:



And since the forum only allows one video per post, I’ll need another post. Sorry…

[Grinning Soul]

And it ends like this:



Now, the story was adapted. It doesn’t happen exactly like the comics. But put me to watch it and I’ll cry just the same! :D

I felt Jean was pretty crucial into helping Scott become the man that mutantkind could rally behind during that era, and if they'd been together during that? I think you're right about the era not lasting as long. Maybe there's no Schism either.

They’re so important to each other I’ll do another post exploring just that.

But, yes, if it wasn’t for her, he would probably have grow up and become an entirely different man.

Like I said before, things between then were really serious from the start. She wasn’t just a crush. More than falling in love with her, he really developed some real, deep love and it helped him get out of his shell and slowly overcome all the trauma and insecurities and fears of abandonment (all those things they completely ignored for teen Cyclops… ugh).

And he only had the time to do so, because she was able to see him behind all that fortress. And that made her feel the same for him. She never gave up on him or her feelings for him, even when she believe they were unrequited.

That is so rare for such young couple and so special. I don't know why those cynical writers keep trying to retcon it...

Now, apart from Annie’s death, Jean had a wonderful life, with a stable, loving family who never experienced any financial difficulty or major setbacks. But there would come a time where the roles would reverse and she would be the one who would need him. And sure enough: there he was.

So both of them are essential in each other’s lives and I simply don’t understand how can one be a fan of a character and hate the other. They’re part of each other in so many fundamental ways.

It’s fine that a fan wouldn’t want them to be together as a couple, but not to understand how much they mean to each other and that they’d never be able to hate or mistreat one another? It’s mind-boggling to me. I like to believe it happens because people let stuff that is not even from the 616 continuity influence them, or writers stupidity or because they read Morrison’s run literally, cherry-picked and in isolation.

Anyway, I’ll look for some panels to illustrate this better because I think it’s important.

But back to your point: I can see Jean being convinced to go to Utopia at first, out of necessity. But I think at some point she would ask him: “Is it worth it, Scott?” and because it was Jean who would be asking him, he would actually stop and think and I don’t think he would be able to tell her: “Yes, it is”. Not to her. Not to the hero she is and the hero he truly is inside. The hero he fully allows himself be when she is around.

That's the epitome of lazy writing. It's a shame about the writing, because that era had some great artists - Stuart Immonen and Mark Bagley are favorites of mine. I think Jorge Molina was involved too?

Yep it was super lazy and the fans ate like the most exquisite dish.

As for the artists: there was also Sara Pichelli.

I've always been able to tolerate the reboots because most of them happened before I read regularly. And I didn't start picking up DC until they did their line-wide soft-reboot with Rebirth, because I didn't like most of what they were doing with The New 52. The Rebirth Era was really good in the initial years, but they've dropped the ball in a few ways as of late.

Still, if Marvel could take that approach with the X-Men, a soft reboot that addresses the character issues while keeping the elements of Krakoa that readers like, I think the line would be in much better shape. Cut the number of books down, tighten the writing, strengthen the character work, and I'd be happy.

Just the possibility that DC could decide to reset everything again is already enough to turn me off of their books because I know I’d feel like I wasted a lot of my time and that makes me super angry.

As for the current X-corner story, I’d prefer Krakoa to be a complete failure. I’m tired of the X-Men titles being tied to the fate of the entire mutantdom. It was interesting at first, but we’ve been in this road for 15+ years and it always ends up revolving around endangered species (which is stupid because mutants and humans are part of the same species) or the mutant-human conflict.

Moira's was written with an in-built retcon mechanism so I’d really not mind that at all, even if I’d miss some of the interesting aspects of the Krakoan era.

If that’s too much to ask, I’d love with the mutants would split and you’d have a crew living in Krakoa leading their cult-like glazed eyes people and the rest of the actual heroes living outside that island.

[Hizashi]

I love humour. But not at expense of characterization.

I totally buy that Scott would believe the old lady when she said he hurt her - he does have a good heart, of course he would stop the fight and go check on her. But still, to be defeated? Come on! He might not be one of the best martial artists of the MU, but he’s pretty damn good.

And that happened *after* they took out Sebastian Shaw… *Blink. Blink*

After that, I cannot blame Emma for not even trying to fight those monsters, can I?

I'm firmly in the camp that Scott should have more CQC (close-quarter combat) feats than he does. The implications of his powers/skills show him to be at least in the upper third of fighters I think - he's no Daredevil but he should be shown to be very competent.

So I checked the supermarket site and they actually have Dr. Pepper! No, Mr. Pibb, unfortunately. But I added a can of Dr. Pepper to my list and try it out next Saturday. See? Trying new things because of my ignorance. Exposure is everything.

Thanks, my friend.

Well, only if you're just trying. Sodas are all pretty much sugar bombs, I've cut them out of my diet for that reason. Very occasionally is fine.

Being honest here? I envy them a little. They get to enjoy so much more in life. My over-active brain often gets in the way. It spares me quite some suffering as well for other reasons, so I’m not whining. It’s a fair trade-off, I guess. Still… Oh well, you probably know what I mean.

Yeah, it can be a bit of a burden, I try to just be in the experience and enjoy most things, but I can't fight it if I see something incongruous.

Yeah. It’s exactly what you said: I have a limit for my suspension of disbelief. I do feel it gets strained too. Now, I confess that this limit is somewhat elastic: the better the story, the more I can pretend certain things are not annoying me.

But come on… everything is so convenient all the time for both successes and failures that it doesn’t really make much sense to actually follow the story, you know? I feel like saying: “Cool, how does it end, then?” Since everything in between will be what it has to be regardless of logic or difficulties, what’s the point of getting invested?

Absolutely, I'm a big fan of Grant Morrison and if I didn't like the idiosyncrasies of his stories I'd probably notice stuff I didn't like. I'm sure we all have writers or even themes or tropes that we are more forgiving to.

Definitely agree about the investment, I barely care at all about all of this current nonsense.

Because if they become popular the publishers want them to have bigger roles. The role of the antagonist is always smaller in exposure time (bigger for narrative purposes) than the supporting roles. The friend or ally of the protagonist appears more than the antagonist.

And once the antagonist is defeated, they either die or end up in jail or will take some time recovering from the defeat.

There’s also the possibility that they’ll want this female character to become the love interest or, at least, a fling for the male hero, of course…

Anyway, Elektra was not intended to be a villain, but she was a curious antagonist for Daredevil. In her first appearances, she was both going against him and saving his hide. And the fact they had their personal history just made it even more juicy.

I don’t want her to be a protagonist. I mean, I’m sure you can tell some stories in which she is the protagonist. But I don’t think there are that many to carry an ongoing book and I’m fine with it. I don’t think she’s any less interesting and complex or weaker as a character for it.

Yeah, it's exactly like you put it - I just wish there was a little more creative integrity and that these villainesses could be as originally intended. Some of them turning over a new leaf? Okay... So many of them? Come on.

I reread Miller's The Man Without Fear and I remembered how much I like how he wrote Elektra and even how Romita Jr drew her. I love the wild hair, I guess that's why I like the costume they gave her so much. Costume aside, yeah, she works best as a supporting character for Daredevil.

So… this might not be an interesting answer but I believe a good story doesn’t need to be revolutionary to be good. Especially when it’s character-driven. I wouldn’t do anything crazy with Matt: I’d keep him with his secret identity, working as a defense lawyer and being a vigilante.

I’d create new and compelling enemies and, in-between fighting agaisnt them, I’d tackle some stories with a more social root. I think Daredevil is perfect for it: he doesn’t have super flashy powers that get him too busy saving the world. He gets too be with the normal people in the MU and because of his senses, he can feel people’s pain like few other heroes.

I’d also do some deep research to be able to give his work as a lawyer and the injustices of the penal system a bigger weight in the stories. I find this part so fascinating and I always wished there was more of it in the comics.

I’d also abuse the narrative boxes and the description of his senses. One of my favourite DD writers is D. G. Chichester just because of his portrayal of Matt and how he explores his senses and inner dialogue. The stories themselves are so so, but that part is just too yummy for my palate! Delicious!

When it comes to romances, I’ll let him be alone for a while. After what happened to Mila, I think he needs to mend his heart and mind before he gets entangled in yet another relationship. I’d put him to actually treat that snake pit (like Stick called) of a mind of his for a change.

You see? With all those things to juggle, I think you can write some really compelling stories without many crazy twists and turns…

Nothing wrong with a back-to-basics approach, it absolutely can lead to great stories. It provides a strong framework for storytelling, lets you get into the nitty-gritty.

[Hizashi]

And it’s not that hard, right? The 90s cartoon got it pretty right.

But you know what those films never get right? The most important thing about the story: the interpersonal relationships. It only works when you get them right.

It starts with the Phoenix Saga:

And since the forum only allows one video per post, I’ll need another post. Sorry…

And it ends like this:



Now, the story was adapted. It doesn’t happen exactly like the comics. But put me to watch it and I’ll cry just the same!

That's definitely their biggest fault, you'd think they'd have avoided the mistake they made from the original trilogy.

This makes me want to rewatch that series. It's gotta be on Disney+ right? As with many, this series was my introduction to the X-Men, and I just liked Scott's costume and power.

They’re so important to each other I’ll do another post exploring just that.

But, yes, if it wasn’t for her, he would probably have grow up and become an entirely different man.

Like I said before, things between then were really serious from the start. She wasn’t just a crush. More than falling in love with her, he really developed some real, deep love and it helped him get out of his shell and slowly overcome all the trauma and insecurities and fears of abandonment (all those things they completely ignored for teen Cyclops… ugh).

And he only had the time to do so, because she was able to see him behind all that fortress. And that made her feel the same for him. She never gave up on him or her feelings for him, even when she believe they were unrequited.

That is so rare for such young couple and so special. I don't know why those cynical writers keep trying to retcon it...

Now, apart from Annie’s death, Jean had a wonderful life, with a stable, loving family who never experienced any financial difficulty or major setbacks. But there would come a time where the roles would reverse and she would be the one who would need him. And sure enough: there he was.

So both of them are essential in each other’s lives and I simply don’t understand how can one be a fan of a character and hate the other. They’re part of each other in so many fundamental ways.

It’s fine that a fan wouldn’t want them to be together as a couple, but not to understand how much they mean to each other and that they’d never be able to hate or mistreat one another? It’s mind-boggling to me. I like to believe it happens because people let stuff that is not even from the 616 continuity influence them, or writers stupidity or because they read Morrison’s run literally, cherry-picked and in isolation.

Anyway, I’ll look for some panels to illustrate this better because I think it’s important.

But back to your point: I can see Jean being convinced to go to Utopia at first, out of necessity. But I think at some point she would ask him: “Is it worth it, Scott?” and because it was Jean who would be asking him, he would actually stop and think and I don’t think he would be able to tell her: “Yes, it is”. Not to her. Not to the hero she is and the hero he truly is inside. The hero he fully allows himself be when she is around.

I think these characters have existed so long that sometimes we forget that they aren't actual people, and the thing about Scott and Jean is that they were literally made for each other. Now, the time period being what it was, Jean wasn't exactly written as well as she could've been, but Claremont (for all his later faults) fleshed them both out further and saw their connection and made it the heart of the biggest stories the X-Men had. I have my reasons to like Scott and Emma, but there's no denying how important Scott and Jean are to each other.

Yep it was super lazy and the fans ate like the most exquisite dish.

As for the artists: there was also Sara Pichelli.

How could I forget, her Ultimate Spider-Man work was really good too.

Just the possibility that DC could decide to reset everything again is already enough to turn me off of their books because I know I’d feel like I wasted a lot of my time and that makes me super angry.

As for the current X-corner story, I’d prefer Krakoa to be a complete failure. I’m tired of the X-Men titles being tied to the fate of the entire mutantdom. It was interesting at first, but we’ve been in this road for 15+ years and it always ends up revolving around endangered species (which is stupid because mutants and humans are part of the same species) or the mutant-human conflict.

Moira's was written with an in-built retcon mechanism so I’d really not mind that at all, even if I’d miss some of the interesting aspects of the Krakoan era.

If that’s too much to ask, I’d love with the mutants would split and you’d have a crew living in Krakoa leading their cult-like glazed eyes people and the rest of the actual heroes living outside that island.

The resets work for me as a meta-story - although they're taking it too far as of late. Thankfully, most books are largely unaffected, seems like they just continue to try to tighten their overall continuity/multiversal cosmology. I prefer the structure, even as regularly revised as it is, over the infinite haphazard approach to continuity and timelines/multiverse that Marvel has.

I think the survival/mutantdom idea peaked with the end of the Utopia era. I largely liked it, but was not into the nonsense that followed.

I'd be quite happy if Krakoa largely went away, I think my biggest issue has been the characterization.

I can't get behind simply splitting the X-Men from Krakoa because until I know definitively that they are the genuine article, these aren't the X-Men, they're pod people. I know that Way of X is supposed to be tackling that question, so I'm waiting to see.

[Grinning Soul]

I'm firmly in the camp that Scott should have more CQC (close-quarter combat) feats than he does. The implications of his powers/skills show him to be at least in the upper third of fighters I think - he's no Daredevil but he should be shown to be very competent.

Considering the very top tier martial artists are part of a very select group, Scott is probably higher than the upper third.

Well, only if you're just trying. Sodas are all pretty much sugar bombs, I've cut them out of my diet for that reason. Very occasionally is fine.

I’m only trying. I don’t drink sodas on daily basis. :)

Yeah, it can be a bit of a burden, I try to just be in the experience and enjoy most things, but I can't fight it if I see something incongruous.

Me neither. I can't just ignore it either, so if there are too many of those things, they pile up and they start to really bother me.

Absolutely, I'm a big fan of Grant Morrison and if I didn't like the idiosyncrasies of his stories I'd probably notice stuff I didn't like. I'm sure we all have writers or even themes or tropes that we are more forgiving to.

Definitely agree about the investment, I barely care at all about all of this current nonsense.

If you think of the story as: beginning - development - end. And the development part is approached as just the link between beginning and end (= everything is going to be written in the most convenient way possible), then I want to get to the end already. Why waste time with the middle?

That’s how I feel now. Motivations and reason for different characterisations were never shown, characters personal conflicts/development/drama isn’t the focus of the story… so what’s left other than the plot of the story? Nothing. And if that’s just a list of check boxes they’re going through, then I’m can’t be invested.

Yeah, it's exactly like you put it - I just wish there was a little more creative integrity and that these villainesses could be as originally intended. Some of them turning over a new leaf? Okay... So many of them? Come on.

Wanda, for instance, it made total sense. But for most of those former antagonists (not necessarily villains) in the X-Office, I’d say they were much more interesting characters when they were antagonists.

I reread Miller's The Man Without Fear and I remembered how much I like how he wrote Elektra and even how Romita Jr drew her. I love the wild hair, I guess that's why I like the costume they gave her so much. Costume aside, yeah, she works best as a supporting character for Daredevil.

I love The Man Without Fear, but I prefer how he originally wrote Elektra. Actually, I’m not sure Elektra was ever written that wild and dark in any other story.

Nothing wrong with a back-to-basics approach, it absolutely can lead to great stories. It provides a strong framework for storytelling, lets you get into the nitty-gritty.

A lot people say: “oh, but it’s been done already”, to which I reply: “let me tell you a secret: if you go down to the core of a story, everything has been done already”.

It’s all in the execution. And the execution doesn’t need to be an apotheosis of feats and plot twists for a story to be good.

Just look at those Pixar movies like Up And Wall-e. Are they the most innovative story you’ve ever seen? No. Do you feel ridiculously invested in the story as you’re watching? Yes! (and if you don’t, go check your heart :P)

Well, then I say it’s a good story.

That's definitely their biggest fault, you'd think they'd have avoided the mistake they made from the original trilogy.

This makes me want to rewatch that series. It's gotta be on Disney+ right? As with many, this series was my introduction to the X-Men, and I just liked Scott's costume and power.

The 90s cartoon is a mess continuity-wise and there’s waaaaaay too much Wolverine in it, if you ask me. But, what it gets right, it gets right, especially if you consider the restraints they had to work with because it was supposed to be suitable for children to watch.

Scott’s using his power is one of the coolest things of the series, especially because it comes with that sound effect. I know it’s silly, but my nerd heart can’t help finding it cool! :D

I really hope that when he comes to the MCU, we get to see some crazy ricocheting of his beams bouncing all over until they finally hits the target (especially if it has some extra calculations involving the moment of the opponent - meaning he aimed where the opponent would be, not where they were at the moment of the shooting) and some of those arc-attacks he can do when he spins his body. And some mountain-leveling stuff just to establish how crazy-powerful he is.

I honestly think Scott’s is one of the powers that can gain the most visual appeal due to the movement of the medium and I can’t wait to finally see it well done!

I know I’ll have to shove some popcorn in my mouth so I don’t squeal too loud in the movie! :D

I think these characters have existed so long that sometimes we forget that they aren't actual people, and the thing about Scott and Jean is that they were literally made for each other.

I think I got what you meant, but I’d very careful saying they were made for each other ‘cause that can imply a lot of things that aren’t true.

For instance, they are full characters on their own and their relationship was never perfect. It’s wasn’t even easy, actually.

Unfortunately, I won’t have time today (I’m finally getting my first shot of the coronavirus vaccine), but I will write that post about why they are important/formative in each other’s lives.

Maybe I should also write one about how difficult things can be between them so to dispel this notion that their relationship is perfect.

Now, the time period being what it was, Jean wasn't exactly written as well as she could've been, but Claremont (for all his later faults) fleshed them both out further and saw their connection and made it the heart of the biggest stories the X-Men had.

Here’s the thing… he tried writing other romances and he was never as successful. Ask yourself why that is… *wink*

I have my reasons to like Scott and Emma, but there's no denying how important Scott and Jean are to each other.

You know? I think Scott and Emma’s relationship was actually very interesting, especially when the writers weren’t trying to make it what it wasn’t.

That being said, I have two problems with it: how the affair started and the fact the the abuser was rewarded with a romantic relationship in the end.

This should never happen regardless of who the characters are because it’s damning to the reader’s psyche: this kind of thing can’t be normalised so we don’t accept it in out lives and we try to help friends who walking this path.

It’s also one of the reasons why I dislike this polyamory so much. It’s 2021 now and Logan is being rewarded with a romantic relationship with Jean, who is a person towards which he was abusive.

The resets work for me as a meta-story - although they're taking it too far as of late. Thankfully, most books are largely unaffected, seems like they just continue to try to tighten their overall continuity/multiversal cosmology. I prefer the structure, even as regularly revised as it is, over the infinite haphazard approach to continuity and timelines/multiverse that Marvel has.

Oh, I get it. This is really about my personality: I spend time doing the most useless stuff, but that’s my choice. I hate to feel like someone made me waste my time and hard reboots make me feel this way. So, just the possibility we might get it? It’s enough for me to decide to spend my time with something else.

I think the survival/mutantdom idea peaked with the end of the Utopia era. I largely liked it, but was not into the nonsense that followed.

I think it peaked before that. It peaked with Hope and the whole premise of a savior/destroyer. But then they didn’t do anything interesting with Hope, so…

I'd be quite happy if Krakoa largely went away, I think my biggest issue has been the characterization.

I can't get behind simply splitting the X-Men from Krakoa because until I know definitively that they are the genuine article, these aren't the X-Men, they're pod people. I know that Way of X is supposed to be tackling that question, so I'm waiting to see.

I agree with you: I want Krakoa to fail and disappear. I want Krakoa to really be the “last” mutant island in the sense as final, as a concept that was rejected for good. If it gets completely retconned out of existence because of Moira’s story, I won’t feel robbed: the story was set for the possibility from the start.

And I agree with you that those aren’t the X-Men and I want the real ones back. I don’t think Way of X will explain everything. I think there are too many hints that the resurrection protocols are fishy and if nothing comes out of it, then I’ll be really annoyed because all the red herrings they put all over several books.

[Hizashi]

Considering the very top tier martial artists are part of a very select group, Scott is probably higher than the upper third.

Yeah, I was just trying to account for margin of error. I don't want to hype our boy too much.

I’m only trying. I don’t drink sodas on daily basis.

Good, we should all cut back on our sugar intake.

Me neither. I can't just ignore it either, so if there are too many of those things, they pile up and they start to really bother me.

Yep, happens all the time.

If you think of the story as: beginning - development - end. And the development part is approached as just the link between beginning and end (= everything is going to be written in the most convenient way possible), then I want to get to the end already. Why waste time with the middle?

That’s how I feel now. Motivations and reason for different characterisations were never shown, characters personal conflicts/development/drama isn’t the focus of the story… so what’s left other than the plot of the story? Nothing. And if that’s just a list of check boxes they’re going through, then I’m can’t be invested.

The triangle thing bothers me the most in regards to context - I can't imagine any way that Scott and Jean end up there. I guess the writer's couldn't think up a way either, so they just skipped that part...

Wanda, for instance, it made total sense. But for most of those former antagonists (not necessarily villains) in the X-Office, I’d say they were much more interesting characters when they were antagonists.

With so many former X-Men enemies on "their side" now, who are their biggest threats? Orchis, a brand new entity?

I love The Man Without Fear, but I prefer how he originally wrote Elektra. Actually, I’m not sure Elektra was ever written that wild and dark in any other story.

I've gotta dig up my old Daredevil books. I've still also gotta grab Bendis' and Brubaker's stuff.

A lot people say: “oh, but it’s been done already”, to which I reply: “let me tell you a secret: if you go down to the core of a story, everything has been done already”.

It’s all in the execution. And the execution doesn’t need to be an apotheosis of feats and plot twists for a story to be good.

Just look at those Pixar movies like Up And Wall-e. Are they the most innovative story you’ve ever seen? No. Do you feel ridiculously invested in the story as you’re watching? Yes! (and if you don’t, go check your heart :P)

Well, then I say it’s a good story.

Exactly, it seems to be something that too many people have forgotten.

The 90s cartoon is a mess continuity-wise and there’s waaaaaay too much Wolverine in it, if you ask me. But, what it gets right, it gets right, especially if you consider the restraints they had to work with because it was supposed to be suitable for children to watch.

Scott’s using his power is one of the coolest things of the series, especially because it comes with that sound effect. I know it’s silly, but my nerd heart can’t help finding it cool!

I really hope that when he comes to the MCU, we get to see some crazy ricocheting of his beams bouncing all over until they finally hits the target (especially if it has some extra calculations involving the moment of the opponent - meaning he aimed where the opponent would be, not where they were at the moment of the shooting) and some of those arc-attacks he can do when he spins his body. And some mountain-leveling stuff just to establish how crazy-powerful he is.

I honestly think Scott’s is one of the powers that can gain the most visual appeal due to the movement of the medium and I can’t wait to finally see it well done!

I know I’ll have to shove some popcorn in my mouth so I don’t squeal too loud in the movie!

God, I'd love Scott being shown some respect in the films. And I agree about the sound-effect, it was absolutely cool.

I think I got what you meant, but I’d very careful saying they were made for each other ‘cause that can imply a lot of things that aren’t true.

For instance, they are full characters on their own and their relationship was never perfect. It’s wasn’t even easy, actually.

Unfortunately, I won’t have time today (I’m finally getting my first shot of the coronavirus vaccine), but I will write that post about why they are important/formative in each other’s lives.

Maybe I should also write one about how difficult things can be between them so to dispel this notion that their relationship is perfect.

Right, I didn't mean there was anything artificial or easy about their relationship. I agree that they are fully realized characters apart, just that their initial conceptualizations were tied strongly to one another.

Here’s the thing… he tried writing other romances and he was never as successful. Ask yourself why that is… *wink*

What he did with Maddie was a series of unfortunate mistakes and then eventually, what seems to me to be, pettiness. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but man, it's no good - Maddie had to go away (I guess) and Scott's character was damaged.

You know? I think Scott and Emma’s relationship was actually very interesting, especially when the writers weren’t trying to make it what it wasn’t.

That being said, I have two problems with it: how the affair started and the fact the the abuser was rewarded with a romantic relationship in the end.

This should never happen regardless of who the characters are because it’s damning to the reader’s psyche: this kind of thing can’t be normalised so we don’t accept it in out lives and we try to help friends who walking this path.

It’s also one of the reasons why I dislike this polyamory so much. It’s 2021 now and Logan is being rewarded with a romantic relationship with Jean, who is a person towards which he was abusive.

I agree with you about how Scemma began. I guess it was easier for me because their relationship was a matter of fact, the Utopia era was already in full swing. Morrison made a mistake about how they got together (that's an understatement) but I think the relationship worked pretty well as it went along. And I'm firmly in the camp that Emma was the unsung heroine of the terrible Terrigen Era.

At least there's some consistency with Scott's friends letting him make bad decisions - was anyone concerned about his whirlwind romance with Maddie (Jean-lookalike) enough to see if he was okay?

Wasn't Jean's "attraction" to Wolverine retroactively added to her later? Maybe I'm remembering that wrong, I thought Classic X-Men made that retcon.

Oh, I get it. This is really about my personality: I spend time doing the most useless stuff, but that’s my choice. I hate to feel like someone made me waste my time and hard reboots make me feel this way. So, just the possibility we might get it? It’s enough for me to decide to spend my time with something else.

That's fair. We all have different tastes and tolerance thresholds.

I think it peaked before that. It peaked with Hope and the whole premise of a savior/destroyer. But then they didn’t do anything interesting with Hope, so…

Yeah, I can see that argument. I guess I just thought that after mutantkind had been restored it was time to move on, maybe try to get into integration (which is where I'd like to see the books go).

I agree with you: I want Krakoa to fail and disappear. I want Krakoa to really be the “last” mutant island in the sense as final, as a concept that was rejected for good. If it gets completely retconned out of existence because of Moira’s story, I won’t feel robbed: the story was set for the possibility from the start.

And I agree with you that those aren’t the X-Men and I want the real ones back. I don’t think Way of X will explain everything. I think there are too many hints that the resurrection protocols are fishy and if nothing comes out of it, then I’ll be really annoyed because all the red herrings they put all over several books.

I'll drop the X-books if that happens.

[Grinning Soul]

Yeah, I was just trying to account for margin of error. I don't want to hype our boy too much..

Hype our boy! This is an appreciation thread! :D

I’m joking. Seriously, though: it’s really not an exaggeration, especially if you allow him to use his optic blasts too.

Good, we should all cut back on our sugar intake.

Yeah. And understand that carbs are sugar. :)

The triangle thing bothers me the most in regards to context - I can't imagine any way that Scott and Jean end up there. I guess the writer's couldn't think up a way either, so they just skipped that part...

Before the the love triangle BS, I want to know what Jean is even doing in Krakoa. Because how does a character go from X-Men: Red to that?

You’re telling me that idealistic, heroic Jean was convinced to join a mutant island for the promise of a safe place for her family and then she joined a black ops group and then she stayed in that island *after* she found out about all that despicable stuff that Hank was doing?

Talk about suspension of disbelief, huh?

With so many former X-Men enemies on "their side" now, who are their biggest threats? Orchis, a brand new entity?

Humans. That’s my point: that’s the conflict. Very flashy, but nothing new.

I've gotta dig up my old Daredevil books. I've still also gotta grab Bendis' and Brubaker's stuff.

I love Bendis run for DD. That thing we talked about before: I see the flaws. I’m not saying it’s perfect. But the story matches Maleev art and it’s just… right.

Brubaker…? It’s okay, I guess. I really don’t like some stuff there.

God, I'd love Scott being shown some respect in the films. And I agree about the sound-effect, it was absolutely cool.

Isn’t it cool? It makes no sense, but I can’t help finding it cool. It’s an uncontrollable part of my nerd-ness.

As for Scott in the movies, I hope they start by casting a man whom I can believe is Scott: tall, with a serious face, a commanding voice and an impressive presence. I need to look at the guy and feel like I could say: “lead and I’ll follow”.

And it has to be a really good actor, because you don’t get to see much of his eyes and he’s not a man who expresses a lot of emotions of his face most of the time: yet, the actor has to convey those emotions.

An actor that can act like that is Ralph Fiennes. But he’s way too old of the role and he’d have to wear some platform boots even if he was young. :D

But yeah, Marvel: find a tall, young, Ralph Fiennes to play Scott. :)

Right, I didn't mean there was anything artificial or easy about their relationship. I agree that they are fully realized characters apart, just that their initial conceptualizations were tied strongly to one another.

They were meant to be each other love’s interests? Maybe. But I’m not sure if their initial conceptualizations were strongly tied to one another either. They’re Stan’s creatures: he didn’t have a fully formed idea about most characters he created actually. He developed them as he wrote them and he only wrote 19 issues of the X-Men book, if I’m not mistaken.

What he did with Maddie was a series of unfortunate mistakes and then eventually, what seems to me to be, pettiness. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but man, it's no good - Maddie had to go away (I guess) and Scott's character was damaged.

I didn’t mean only Maddie, actually. I meant all romances CC created for all the characters he had the chance to write, including the other relationships he wrote for Scott. None of them were as good as Scott and Jean together.

So again: think about why. *Wink*

Hint: it’s because of those two characters, in specific. :P

I agree with you about how Scemma began. I guess it was easier for me because their relationship was a matter of fact, the Utopia era was already in full swing. Morrison made a mistake about how they got together (that's an understatement) but I think the relationship worked pretty well as it went along. And I'm firmly in the camp that Emma was the unsung heroine of the terrible Terrigen Era.

I think by now you may have a picture of how crazy it is my thinking: just like some characters are better and more interesting when they’re allowed to be antagonists, some relationships are better and more interesting when they’re allowed to be weird and dysfunctional.

My problem was never with the relationship itself. It was with the abuse and the reward for the abuser.

At least there's some consistency with Scott's friends letting him make bad decisions - was anyone concerned about his whirlwind romance with Maddie (Jean-lookalike) enough to see if he was okay?

You’re thinking about mental health? Hahaha! It was so much worse than that! :D

When Scott was (rightfully) obsessing about the crazy stuff concerning Maddie, Alex was like: “bro, come on. Go be happy. Don’t ruin it”.

Everyone else was like: “Wow! She looks like Jean! But even though we live in a world with shape-shifters and magic, we are not going to worry about it at all”.

Wasn't Jean's "attraction" to Wolverine retroactively added to her later? Maybe I'm remembering that wrong, I thought Classic X-Men made that retcon.

Yes and no. Depends on how you read it.

The first kiss (without consent as every other in the pre-Krakoan) era was really out of the blue. And Logan was an effing jerk who rubs it in her face - as she was clearly distressed - that she liked the kiss.

Now, you could say the attraction started from there.

But, to justify how out of the blue that kiss was, CC wrote in Classic X-Men how Jean met Logan. And the way Logan behaves is just… ugh…



Warren sees that and he jumps in:



And then Jean says this.



Is this attraction or is it just Jean being Jean and seeing there’s more to Logan than that despicable behaviour?

(I have to break the post again… only 3 images per post. Sorry.)

[Grinning Soul]

Then she tells this to Charles:



But is this attraction to the man or to what he represents? How much of that had to do with the moment she was living and her other personal issues?

I think her “attraction” to Logan has always been more complex than purely sexual desire. But that’s a whole other discussion. Let me know if you’re interested.

(Note: The story of Classic X-Men that is the most disgusting, abusive one is actually Classic X-men #27. If that thing is canon… Nah, it can’t be).

Yeah, I can see that argument. I guess I just thought that after mutantkind had been restored it was time to move on, maybe try to get into integration (which is where I'd like to see the books go).

Peaked in the sense it exhausted itself? Yeah. Definitely agree on that! Let’s move on from this thematic already, please.

I'll drop the X-books if that happens.

If what exactly happens? That Way of X doesn’t account for all those behaviour changes and there’s nothing more to it?

[lancer]

Every Jean/Logan kiss was forced on her? Talk about interpreting the same comics differently IMO, the XTINCTION AGENDA and Morison kisses were absolutely mutual, at the least. Morrison possibly her initiative. Considering the context of the conversation and Logan clearly breaking it off.

Much as I criticized Morrison, I gave him credit for that scene. While I would NEVER be for a kiss that she was a willing participant, IF it HAD to be done. If you were going to insist on it, IMO, it's done about as well as I could hope for.

Why? The entire scene is about Scott. The pain she is in over Scott. Right before the kiss, IIRC, and just wish he'd hold me the way he used to. The scene is not about how hot she is for Logan, how attracted she is to him. It's seeking comfort from the pain. I certainly don't approve of her kissing him, but it stopped there. It didn't stop there with Emma. IMO, stopped by Logan because he knew that was what it was about. Morrison's Logan says flat out that they belong together, and tries to help the marriage.

Another if. In that issue, the problem is that Scott came back completely different. IF you are going to insist on breaking JOTT up, that is how you do it. Morrison didn't stay with that. Scott flat out tells Emma that the marriage was fake, going through the motions. Never the same afte she came back. Later on with Logan. Every time I see Jean, I see that teenage girl I fell in love with. Only I'm not that teenage boy anymore. What is that saying except that it was a teenage crush he grew out of?

Obviously, I wouldn't have liked the breakup no matter how they did. However, I would acknowledge my first scenario, from the kiss issue, as at least a workable place to start. It loses all credibility when you try to retroactively diminish or deconstruct the relationship. It was too long. The relationship worked, the marriage certainly did. They were happy, on panel. LOL, I'm supposed to buy it was going through the motions?

And some of the praise he got for it at the time. I mean on message boards. I used this example so many times. A new FF writer comes on board and doesn't think that Reed and Sue work. Starts having her spout nonsense like she now realizes that Reed, an older man, really was a substitute for the father that she lost at such a young age. She has come to realize that she really wasn't really in love with him. More going through the motions. Well, I would call that story revisionist psychobable
claptrap, JUST like what Morrison did with Scott and Jean.

This is NO Jean attraction to Logan in the original UXM 94-137. He has a crush for her that he keeps to himself and moves past after he meets Mariko. CLASSIC X MEN 1 is where Jean's attraction to Logan started. I retcon I didn't like, but certainly not the first or last I disliked.

Now, as to the panels posted, the conversation between Jean and Xavier. All well and good. Now find me another like that. ONE such conversation with ANYONE else. I mean before 2003. Might have happened since then. No way in hell it happened before then.

What am I looking for exactly? Jean pondering her feelings for Logan. Jean comparing and contrasting her feelings for Logan to those for Scott. Jean concerned about the intensity of her attraction for Logan. Jean concerned that she might yield to that attraction. Again, just want one.
CLASSIC 1 came out in 1986 and Jean died in 2004. For a triangle that some(not me) seem to have thought was so prevalent, it shouldn't be difficult.

Jean and Scot had 1 brief conversation about her, Logan, and what she might feel for him. X MEN 28. Needless to say, they didn't call the engagement off. Scott acknowledged it, but was not overly threatened by it. He just wanted to talk about it.

In the 80s and 90s it was pretty much a Claremont thing. It was like a game he was playing, but he wasn't her primary handler. The people who were weren't playing the game. Louise Simonson wrote Jean for over 50 issues? Gave JOTT plenty of obstacles, but Logan wasn't one of them. She wrote the issue of AGENDA with the kiss, but that was in a crossover. A collaboration. We don't know how much of that was her idea. All I know is it was the only time. When Jean and Scott were having problems, it would have been a perfect time for Jean to muse on he feelings for Logan. Nope, never. Again, her feelings for him, not vice versa. When she thinks the X Men are dead, she says Ororo was a friend and Logan wanted to be more. That's him, not her.

How many issues did Lobdell write Jean? He never touched Jean/Logan. Nicieza did, he wrote XM 28 and also, very uncomfortably for me, wrote the FATAL ATTRACTIONS issue, XM 25, where the narration says that Jean loved Logan. As Magneto is ripping the adamantium right out of his body.
However, he never wrote a triangle. He never wrote a scene with romantic tension between Jean and Logan. A scene anything like the panels posted above from CLASSIC 1. Nicieza wrote JOTT reconciling in XM 24, the marriage issue. He wrote them as a loving, committed couple. Not Jean pining for Logan in any way. Did Mark Waid touch Jean/Logan? Seagle? Kelly? Alan Davis? Nope, nope and nope.

It was SO overrated and most of what happened was isolated, no followup, because Claremont was the only one interested in playing. After the INFERNO kiss(all Logan grabbing and kissing her, I know), does Jean once think or talk about that kiss? After XTINCTION AGENDA, which i consider mutual, any followup? The next time Jean and Logan were in panels alone again, there should have been lots of romantic tension. Nope

Same with Casey and Morison although Casey really didn't write Jean after that. But nothing after the Morrison kiss either. It was never a true triangle in that there was some ongoing romantic tension. It was several isolated incidents. Nothing that would indicate that Jean would leave Scott for Logan. For that, you'd need to build on something like the Jean/Xavier conversation above. Again, though, that was pretty much a one time deal.

As far as I know the CLASSIC backups were supposed to be canon. Some are hard to reconcile. Claremont's take on Jean/Phoenix versus the X FACTOR writer being an example. Isn't 27 the one where they are trapped underground. That was Ann Nocenti and I'd say there was real romantic tension there. No Jean conversation about feelings, and Logan is hitting on her obnoxiously, but she is attracted to him, IMO. And while it was obnoxious i didn't see it as him forcing himself on her. If they had kissed, and they were coming close, I would not have categorized that with the INFERNO Claremont kiss or Casey's. That is all Logan, clearly, IMO. Grabbing her and kissing her. She had no say in it.

Make no mistake, if Claremont had ever gotten Jean back full time, and not left in 91, I think we would have had plenty of that musing, contemplating her feelings for Logan. But canon isn't what Claremont might have done. It's what was done. Know where else you can find it. The novel for X2 which Claremont wrote. Jean comparing and contrasting.

I think I've typed long enough. A lot longer than I should.