Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Grinning Soul]

Lancer, you touched on a lot of things on the same post. I'm in the middle of writing some stuff that is more pertinent to the thread, meaning, more directly related to Scott and Jean.

But I made a list of the things I will reply to:

- Pre-Krakoan kisses between Jean and Logan.
- Issues concerning reading Morisson's run in isolation, taking what character's say literally, giving more importance to some lines than others, etc...
- I'll talk about an issue where we're shown Jean's relationship with Logan, as Scott sees it and as she defines it.
- Jean's "love" for Logan (hint: yes, it's a thing. But it's not romantic).
- Classic X-Men #27

I'd just ask you three things:

1) Please, be patient, it may take a few days for me to get to it.
2) Read my posts with an open mind, okay? Because it will take quite some time to write them and if that's not your disposition, it just doesn't make sense for me to spend time on it.
3) If after reading them with an open mind you still disagree, let's not make it into a big deal, okay? You have your interpretation of the comics and I have mine. I'll explain why I see things the way I see them, but I'm not trying to convince anyone here. If it makes sense to you, it does. If it doesn't, it's fine.

Deal? :)

[TheDeadSpace]

Most characters read off to me. But I prefer Duggan's take on Scott than Hickman's. I'm glad Hickman won't be writing him on a frequent basis anymore.

Now... Are you reading Way of X?

spoilers:

We know there is at least one thing actually affecting the behaviour of the mutants in Krakoa. I'm not sure it's just Onslaught too. I still think there's something very fishy with the resurrection protocols and, honestly, if we don't get a really good explanation of why those characters are being so weird and the new X-men book is disappointing, I'm going on a break from comic books.

end of spoilers

Initially I was expecting a twist of some form but I'm not too sure these days. To be honest, I'm close to taking a break as well for somewhat similar reasons. I'm hoping X-men pulls me back in, but that will be entirely up to the book when it comes out.

Every Jean/Logan kiss was forced on her? Talk about interpreting the same comics differently IMO, the XTINCTION AGENDA and Morison kisses were absolutely mutual, at the least. Morrison possibly her initiative. Considering the context of the conversation and Logan clearly breaking it off.

Much as I criticized Morrison, I gave him credit for that scene. While I would NEVER be for a kiss that she was a willing participant, IF it HAD to be done. If you were going to insist on it, IMO, it's done about as well as I could hope for.

Why? The entire scene is about Scott. The pain she is in over Scott. Right before the kiss, IIRC, and just wish he'd hold me the way he used to. The scene is not about how hot she is for Logan, how attracted she is to him. It's seeking comfort from the pain. I certainly don't approve of her kissing him, but it stopped there. It didn't stop there with Emma. IMO, stopped by Logan because he knew that was what it was about. Morrison's Logan says flat out that they belong together, and tries to help the marriage.

Another if. In that issue, the problem is that Scott came back completely different. IF you are going to insist on breaking JOTT up, that is how you do it. Morrison didn't stay with that. Scott flat out tells Emma that the marriage was fake, going through the motions. Never the same afte she came back. Later on with Logan. Every time I see Jean, I see that teenage girl I fell in love with. Only I'm not that teenage boy anymore. What is that saying except that it was a teenage crush he grew out of?

Obviously, I wouldn't have liked the breakup no matter how they did. However, I would acknowledge my first scenario, from the kiss issue, as at least a workable place to start. It loses all credibility when you try to retroactively diminish or deconstruct the relationship. It was too long. The relationship worked, the marriage certainly did. They were happy, on panel. LOL, I'm supposed to buy it was going through the motions?

And some of the praise he got for it at the time. I mean on message boards. I used this example so many times. A new FF writer comes on board and doesn't think that Reed and Sue work. Starts having her spout nonsense like she now realizes that Reed, an older man, really was a substitute for the father that she lost at such a young age. She has come to realize that she really wasn't really in love with him. More going through the motions. Well, I would call that story revisionist psychobable
claptrap, JUST like what Morrison did with Scott and Jean.

This is NO Jean attraction to Logan in the original UXM 94-137. He has a crush for her that he keeps to himself and moves past after he meets Mariko. CLASSIC X MEN 1 is where Jean's attraction to Logan started. I retcon I didn't like, but certainly not the first or last I disliked.

Now, as to the panels posted, the conversation between Jean and Xavier. All well and good. Now find me another like that. ONE such conversation with ANYONE else. I mean before 2003. Might have happened since then. No way in hell it happened before then.

What am I looking for exactly? Jean pondering her feelings for Logan. Jean comparing and contrasting her feelings for Logan to those for Scott. Jean concerned about the intensity of her attraction for Logan. Jean concerned that she might yield to that attraction. Again, just want one.
CLASSIC 1 came out in 1986 and Jean died in 2004. For a triangle that some(not me) seem to have thought was so prevalent, it shouldn't be difficult.

Jean and Scot had 1 brief conversation about her, Logan, and what she might feel for him. X MEN 28. Needless to say, they didn't call the engagement off. Scott acknowledged it, but was not overly threatened by it. He just wanted to talk about it.

In the 80s and 90s it was pretty much a Claremont thing. It was like a game he was playing, but he wasn't her primary handler. The people who were weren't playing the game. Louise Simonson wrote Jean for over 50 issues? Gave JOTT plenty of obstacles, but Logan wasn't one of them. She wrote the issue of AGENDA with the kiss, but that was in a crossover. A collaboration. We don't know how much of that was her idea. All I know is it was the only time. When Jean and Scott were having problems, it would have been a perfect time for Jean to muse on he feelings for Logan. Nope, never. Again, her feelings for him, not vice versa. When she thinks the X Men are dead, she says Ororo was a friend and Logan wanted to be more. That's him, not her.

How many issues did Lobdell write Jean? He never touched Jean/Logan. Nicieza did, he wrote XM 28 and also, very uncomfortably for me, wrote the FATAL ATTRACTIONS issue, XM 25, where the narration says that Jean loved Logan. As Magneto is ripping the adamantium right out of his body.
However, he never wrote a triangle. He never wrote a scene with romantic tension between Jean and Logan. A scene anything like the panels posted above from CLASSIC 1. Nicieza wrote JOTT reconciling in XM 24, the marriage issue. He wrote them as a loving, committed couple. Not Jean pining for Logan in any way. Did Mark Waid touch Jean/Logan? Seagle? Kelly? Alan Davis? Nope, nope and nope.

It was SO overrated and most of what happened was isolated, no followup, because Claremont was the only one interested in playing. After the INFERNO kiss(all Logan grabbing and kissing her, I know), does Jean once think or talk about that kiss? After XTINCTION AGENDA, which i consider mutual, any followup? The next time Jean and Logan were in panels alone again, there should have been lots of romantic tension. Nope

Same with Casey and Morison although Casey really didn't write Jean after that. But nothing after the Morrison kiss either. It was never a true triangle in that there was some ongoing romantic tension. It was several isolated incidents. Nothing that would indicate that Jean would leave Scott for Logan. For that, you'd need to build on something like the Jean/Xavier conversation above. Again, though, that was pretty much a one time deal.

As far as I know the CLASSIC backups were supposed to be canon. Some are hard to reconcile. Claremont's take on Jean/Phoenix versus the X FACTOR writer being an example. Isn't 27 the one where they are trapped underground. That was Ann Nocenti and I'd say there was real romantic tension there. No Jean conversation about feelings, and Logan is hitting on her obnoxiously, but she is attracted to him, IMO. And while it was obnoxious i didn't see it as him forcing himself on her. If they had kissed, and they were coming close, I would not have categorized that with the INFERNO Claremont kiss or Casey's. That is all Logan, clearly, IMO. Grabbing her and kissing her. She had no say in it.

Make no mistake, if Claremont had ever gotten Jean back full time, and not left in 91, I think we would have had plenty of that musing, contemplating her feelings for Logan. But canon isn't what Claremont might have done. It's what was done. Know where else you can find it. The novel for X2 which Claremont wrote. Jean comparing and contrasting.

I think I've typed long enough. A lot longer than I should.

Lots of stuff to break down here. I wouldn't worry about the amount you wrote, it really puts some stuff into perspective. Although I 100% agree with you about the exaggeration of the love triangle these days. It really did mostly come from Claremont most of the time and considering the release dates of X-factor and classic X-men, it all kind of makes sense. It's unfortunately an open secret how Claremont views Scott and his relationship to Jean.

I feel the bad has definitely been more emphasized in the past decade rather than the good at times. Their current setup isn't perfect in my opinion, but at least it seems to highlight the good over the bad. I just wish it was delved into on a much more deeper level and reduced back to just the two of them, but it is what it is.

[Grinning Soul]

Initially I was expecting a twist of some form but I'm not too sure these days. To be honest, I'm close to taking a break as well for somewhat similar reasons. I'm hoping X-men pulls me back in, but that will be entirely up to the book when it comes out.

The new book looks amazing, but in the end of the day, I want to feel like I'm reading the characters I know and love. It's been too long having to deal with this weird characterizations, not knowing what is going on.

Lots of stuff to break down here. I wouldn't worry about the amount you wrote, it really puts some stuff into perspective. Although I 100% agree with you about the exaggeration of the love triangle these days. It really did mostly come from Claremont most of the time and considering the release dates of X-factor and classic X-men, it all kind of makes sense. It's unfortunately an open secret how Claremont views Scott and his relationship to Jean.

Yes. In the 616 continuity that triangle was pretty meh and had been pretty much dealt with and forgotten in the 90s. It only became a thing again in the beginning of 2000s, maybe because of the movies.

I have the feeling a lot of people take their perceptions from movies and AUs and translate it to the 616 continuity as if they were equivalent. They're not.

I feel the bad has definitely been more emphasized in the past decade rather than the good at times. Their current setup isn't perfect in my opinion, but at least it seems to highlight the good over the bad. I just wish it was delved into on a much more deeper level and reduced back to just the two of them, but it is what it is.

I agree with you. Every time they referred to them it was as if their relationship had been horrible or they just talk about Jean finding out about the affair. They never try to frame what was around it. Never talk about the 15-20 in-story years they spent together in which they were so important and meant so much to each other.

I promised Hizashi I'd write about it. When it comes to Scott, I have the posts ready, but I'll let you guys talk a bit more if you want before I post them because it will take a lot of space in the thread.

[lancer]

Lancer, you touched on a lot of things on the same post. I'm in the middle of writing some stuff that is more pertinent to the thread, meaning, more directly related to Scott and Jean.

But I made a list of the things I will reply to:

- Pre-Krakoan kisses between Jean and Logan.
- Issues concerning reading Morisson's run in isolation, taking what character's say literally, giving more importance to some lines than others, etc...
- I'll talk about an issue where we're shown Jean's relationship with Logan, as Scott sees it and as she defines it.
- Jean's "love" for Logan (hint: yes, it's a thing. But it's not romantic).
- Classic X-Men #27

I'd just ask you three things:

1) Please, be patient, it may take a few days for me to get to it.
2) Read my posts with an open mind, okay? Because it will take quite some time to write them and if that's not your disposition, it just doesn't make sense for me to spend time on it.
3) If after reading them with an open mind you still disagree, let's not make it into a big deal, okay? You have your interpretation of the comics and I have mine. I'll explain why I see things the way I see them, but I'm not trying to convince anyone here. If it makes sense to you, it does. If it doesn't, it's fine.

Deal?

I'm out, at least for awhile. Just lost a pretty lengthy thing I wrote when I tried to post it. Got a white screen. Got a crappy keyboard and not a very fast typer. Plus, I'm out and I'm not coming back. I mean reading the books. That's too much wasted time when posts disappear. Sometimes I cntl c before I post just in case. I mean with lengthy stuff. I'll need some time to recharge my batteries.

But one thing. I take no personal offense at your opinions. It's a pubic forum, I disagreed with one of them and tried to say why. I wasn't so much trying to change your take as express mine.

[Grinning Soul]

I'm out, at least for awhile. Just lost a pretty lengthy thing I wrote when I tried to post it. Got a white screen. Got a crappy keyboard and not a very fast typer. Plus, I'm out and I'm not coming back. I mean reading the books. That's too much wasted time when posts disappear. Sometimes I cntl c before I post just in case. I mean with lengthy stuff. I'll need some time to recharge my batteries.

But one thing. I take no personal offense at your opinions. It's a pubic forum, I disagreed with one of them and tried to say why. I wasn't so much trying to change your take as express mine.

Oh, I understand you were trying to express your view. But I just want to know if you'd be willing to read my take with an open mind, because otherwise I just don't see the point of my writing more about it. We can already agree to disagree and call it a day, right? :)

You see, English is not my native language. It takes quite some time writing and doing some revision to try to make sure I'm expressing myself right. So, basically, I just need to know if you want to actually discuss those points or you just wanted to vent. Both cases are fine, of course. But if you just wanted to express your opinion, then I won't spend my time in further posts, you know?

So... if you could just confirm which is the case, I'd appreciate it. :)

[Hizashi]

Hype our boy! This is an appreciation thread!

I’m joking. Seriously, though: it’s really not an exaggeration, especially if you allow him to use his optic blasts too.

I think the implications of Scott's power/skills would also help in CQC, he should have heightened spatial awareness.

Yeah. And understand that carbs are sugar.

Scott seems like he'd be pretty aware of his diet. I wonder about Jean.

Before the the love triangle BS, I want to know what Jean is even doing in Krakoa. Because how does a character go from X-Men: Red to that?

You’re telling me that idealistic, heroic Jean was convinced to join a mutant island for the promise of a safe place for her family and then she joined a black ops group and then she stayed in that island *after* she found out about all that despicable stuff that Hank was doing?

Talk about suspension of disbelief, huh?

Jean was pretty well written, although I recall her being a bit too saccharine for my tastes; I wanted to see her fired up.

Humans. That’s my point: that’s the conflict. Very flashy, but nothing new.

Pretty basic, I guess we'll see what happens moving forward.

I love Bendis run for DD. That thing we talked about before: I see the flaws. IÂ’m not saying itÂ’s perfect. But the story matches Maleev art and it’s just… right.

Brubaker…? It’s okay, I guess. I really don’t like some stuff there.

I liked Brubaker's Cap stuff, hopefully his DD is to my tastes. As for Bendis, I read bits and pieces from library checkouts, but I want to read the complete run. He might not get much praise now, but many hold his DD in high regard.

Isn’t it cool? It makes no sense, but I can’t help finding it cool. It’s an uncontrollable part of my nerd-ness.

As for Scott in the movies, I hope they start by casting a man whom I can believe is Scott: tall, with a serious face, a commanding voice and an impressive presence. I need to look at the guy and feel like I could say: “lead and I’ll follow”.

And it has to be a really good actor, because you don’t get to see much of his eyes and he’s not a man who expresses a lot of emotions of his face most of the time: yet, the actor has to convey those emotions.

An actor that can act like that is Ralph Fiennes. But he’s way too old of the role and he’d have to wear some platform boots even if he was young.

But yeah, Marvel: find a tall, young, Ralph Fiennes to play Scott.

Yeah, exactly, those are big concerns. MCU has done a pretty good job so far, even if they've dropped the ball lately, so hopefully they pull this one off.

They were meant to be each other love’s interests? Maybe. But I’m not sure if their initial conceptualizations were strongly tied to one another either. They’re Stan’s creatures: he didn’t have a fully formed idea about most characters he created actually. He developed them as he wrote them and he only wrote 19 issues of the X-Men book, if I’m not mistaken.

I guess I got the sense that there was that plan for them, then the baton was passed.

I didn’t mean only Maddie, actually. I meant all romances CC created for all the characters he had the chance to write, including the other relationships he wrote for Scott. None of them were as good as Scott and Jean together.

So again: think about why. *Wink*

Hint: it’s because of those two characters, in specific.

Well, Maddie was the most consequential of those romances, although you're right of course.

I think by now you may have a picture of how crazy it is my thinking: just like some characters are better and more interesting when they’re allowed to be antagonists, some relationships are better and more interesting when they’re allowed to be weird and dysfunctional.

My problem was never with the relationship itself. It was with the abuse and the reward for the abuser.

Yep, there's no getting around it really. Even having Morrison's Jean push Scott to Emma isn't any better.

You’re thinking about mental health? Hahaha! It was so much worse than that!

When Scott was (rightfully) obsessing about the crazy stuff concerning Maddie, Alex was like: “bro, come on. Go be happy. Don’t ruin it”.

Everyone else was like: “Wow! She looks like Jean! But even though we live in a world with shape-shifters and magic, we are not going to worry about it at all”.

Yeah, with friends like those, who needs enemies?

We don't have to get into it, but the post-AvX era was terrible for Scott, seeing his so-called friends mistreating him and then spitting on his name and memory after his death. There was never any reconciliation for this, it's just been swept under the rug.

Yes and no. Depends on how you read it.

The first kiss (without consent as every other in the pre-Krakoan) era was really out of the blue. And Logan was an effing jerk who rubs it in her face - as she was clearly distressed - that she liked the kiss.

Now, you could say the attraction started from there.

But, to justify how out of the blue that kiss was, CC wrote in Classic X-Men how Jean met Logan. And the way Logan behaves is just… ugh…



Warren sees that and he jumps in:



And then Jean says this.



Is this attraction or is it just Jean being Jean and seeing there’s more to Logan than that despicable behavior?

(I have to break the post again… only 3 images per post. Sorry.)

A retcon I dislike.

[Hizashi]

Then she tells this to Charles:



But is this attraction to the man or to what he represents? How much of that had to do with the moment she was living and her other personal issues?

I think her “attraction” to Logan has always been more complex than purely sexual desire. But that’s a whole other discussion. Let me know if you’re interested.

(Note: The story of Classic X-Men that is the most disgusting, abusive one is actually Classic X-men #27. If that thing is canon… Nah, it can’t be).

Yep, I don't like this. Maybe I'm old-fashioned but those thoughts can't be left alone to stew in a committed relationship - thankfully, if memory serves, Scott and Jean addressed it and put it behind them.

Peaked in the sense it exhausted itself? Yeah. Definitely agree on that! Let’s move on from this thematic already, please.

That's one way of putting it. We can move on,

If what exactly happens? That Way of X doesn’t account for all those behaviour changes and there’s nothing more to it?

Yeah, essentially. It seems to be promising some answers, I hope I get the ones I want.

[Hizashi]

Every Jean/Logan kiss was forced on her? Talk about interpreting the same comics differently IMO, the XTINCTION AGENDA and Morison kisses were absolutely mutual, at the least. Morrison possibly her initiative. Considering the context of the conversation and Logan clearly breaking it off.

Much as I criticized Morrison, I gave him credit for that scene. While I would NEVER be for a kiss that she was a willing participant, IF it HAD to be done. If you were going to insist on it, IMO, it's done about as well as I could hope for.

Why? The entire scene is about Scott. The pain she is in over Scott. Right before the kiss, IIRC, and just wish he'd hold me the way he used to. The scene is not about how hot she is for Logan, how attracted she is to him. It's seeking comfort from the pain. I certainly don't approve of her kissing him, but it stopped there. It didn't stop there with Emma. IMO, stopped by Logan because he knew that was what it was about. Morrison's Logan says flat out that they belong together, and tries to help the marriage.

Another if. In that issue, the problem is that Scott came back completely different. IF you are going to insist on breaking JOTT up, that is how you do it. Morrison didn't stay with that. Scott flat out tells Emma that the marriage was fake, going through the motions. Never the same afte she came back. Later on with Logan. Every time I see Jean, I see that teenage girl I fell in love with. Only I'm not that teenage boy anymore. What is that saying except that it was a teenage crush he grew out of?

Obviously, I wouldn't have liked the breakup no matter how they did. However, I would acknowledge my first scenario, from the kiss issue, as at least a workable place to start. It loses all credibility when you try to retroactively diminish or deconstruct the relationship. It was too long. The relationship worked, the marriage certainly did. They were happy, on panel. LOL, I'm supposed to buy it was going through the motions?

And some of the praise he got for it at the time. I mean on message boards. I used this example so many times. A new FF writer comes on board and doesn't think that Reed and Sue work. Starts having her spout nonsense like she now realizes that Reed, an older man, really was a substitute for the father that she lost at such a young age. She has come to realize that she really wasn't really in love with him. More going through the motions. Well, I would call that story revisionist psychobable
claptrap, JUST like what Morrison did with Scott and Jean.

This is NO Jean attraction to Logan in the original UXM 94-137. He has a crush for her that he keeps to himself and moves past after he meets Mariko. CLASSIC X MEN 1 is where Jean's attraction to Logan started. I retcon I didn't like, but certainly not the first or last I disliked.

Now, as to the panels posted, the conversation between Jean and Xavier. All well and good. Now find me another like that. ONE such conversation with ANYONE else. I mean before 2003. Might have happened since then. No way in hell it happened before then.

What am I looking for exactly? Jean pondering her feelings for Logan. Jean comparing and contrasting her feelings for Logan to those for Scott. Jean concerned about the intensity of her attraction for Logan. Jean concerned that she might yield to that attraction. Again, just want one.
CLASSIC 1 came out in 1986 and Jean died in 2004. For a triangle that some(not me) seem to have thought was so prevalent, it shouldn't be difficult.

Jean and Scot had 1 brief conversation about her, Logan, and what she might feel for him. X MEN 28. Needless to say, they didn't call the engagement off. Scott acknowledged it, but was not overly threatened by it. He just wanted to talk about it.

In the 80s and 90s it was pretty much a Claremont thing. It was like a game he was playing, but he wasn't her primary handler. The people who were weren't playing the game. Louise Simonson wrote Jean for over 50 issues? Gave JOTT plenty of obstacles, but Logan wasn't one of them. She wrote the issue of AGENDA with the kiss, but that was in a crossover. A collaboration. We don't know how much of that was her idea. All I know is it was the only time. When Jean and Scott were having problems, it would have been a perfect time for Jean to muse on he feelings for Logan. Nope, never. Again, her feelings for him, not vice versa. When she thinks the X Men are dead, she says Ororo was a friend and Logan wanted to be more. That's him, not her.

How many issues did Lobdell write Jean? He never touched Jean/Logan. Nicieza did, he wrote XM 28 and also, very uncomfortably for me, wrote the FATAL ATTRACTIONS issue, XM 25, where the narration says that Jean loved Logan. As Magneto is ripping the adamantium right out of his body.
However, he never wrote a triangle. He never wrote a scene with romantic tension between Jean and Logan. A scene anything like the panels posted above from CLASSIC 1. Nicieza wrote JOTT reconciling in XM 24, the marriage issue. He wrote them as a loving, committed couple. Not Jean pining for Logan in any way. Did Mark Waid touch Jean/Logan? Seagle? Kelly? Alan Davis? Nope, nope and nope.

It was SO overrated and most of what happened was isolated, no followup, because Claremont was the only one interested in playing. After the INFERNO kiss(all Logan grabbing and kissing her, I know), does Jean once think or talk about that kiss? After XTINCTION AGENDA, which i consider mutual, any followup? The next time Jean and Logan were in panels alone again, there should have been lots of romantic tension. Nope

Same with Casey and Morison although Casey really didn't write Jean after that. But nothing after the Morrison kiss either. It was never a true triangle in that there was some ongoing romantic tension. It was several isolated incidents. Nothing that would indicate that Jean would leave Scott for Logan. For that, you'd need to build on something like the Jean/Xavier conversation above. Again, though, that was pretty much a one time deal.

As far as I know the CLASSIC backups were supposed to be canon. Some are hard to reconcile. Claremont's take on Jean/Phoenix versus the X FACTOR writer being an example. Isn't 27 the one where they are trapped underground. That was Ann Nocenti and I'd say there was real romantic tension there. No Jean conversation about feelings, and Logan is hitting on her obnoxiously, but she is attracted to him, IMO. And while it was obnoxious i didn't see it as him forcing himself on her. If they had kissed, and they were coming close, I would not have categorized that with the INFERNO Claremont kiss or Casey's. That is all Logan, clearly, IMO. Grabbing her and kissing her. She had no say in it.

Make no mistake, if Claremont had ever gotten Jean back full time, and not left in 91, I think we would have had plenty of that musing, contemplating her feelings for Logan. But canon isn't what Claremont might have done. It's what was done. Know where else you can find it. The novel for X2 which Claremont wrote. Jean comparing and contrasting.

I think I've typed long enough. A lot longer than I should.

I like this post overall - I haven't read Classic 27 though, so I have no point of reference.

Claremont's contribution to the X-Men can't be downplayed or dismissed, but he should be kept away now.

[MechaJeanix]

For me I'd have preferred Jean and Logan to be close friends. He cares for her romantically and she does have some sort of attraction to him but mostly she sees him as close and caring friend. Wolverine started off as a rough messy character but the character evolved into a noble warrior and one that is very popular with the audience. As the reader we were probably supposed to cheer him on when he did things like kiss Jean in Inferno. Which is gross definitely by today's standards where we discuss consent, rape culture, and sexual power dynamics often.

Scott in X-men 3 under the influence of Magneto's manipulation (or whatever it was) also kissed Jean without her consent and asked if his kiss was better than Wolverine's. Jean as many fictional female love interests becomes an object. I was so happy with X-men Red in part because Jean was free from Scott and Logan (though I can stomach Jean/Scott because I love them both and I might be a closet shipper but that is a secret). The poly thing with Wolverine and Scott at first I hated because it felt like straight male fantasy b.s. (no offense to the straight guys here or anywhere) but Percy kind of sold me on it with X-force 10 as long as Jean has agency and appears to be in charge of her life.

X-men 28 is one of my favorite Jean issues and I loved how Scott and Jean talked about Wolverine and Scott did not seem threatened by Jean's feelings about Wolverine. It felt like a mature discussion and a mature relationship. I also prefer Scott and Logan as friends so I did not like the schism era. In the Morrison era they seemed to respect one another, and we seem to be back to that. Cyclops talks about having his loved ones close to him and living on the moon and it includes Logan. Logan went on the Summers family vacation.

I think those who love Jean/Scott together will probably be fed well under Duggan but I wonder if we'll see Jean guest star in X-force and Wolverine and continue a romantic thing with Logan. I just hope this poly thing this is addressed before another writer comes in the future and really messes it up (turns it into a soapy cheating mess of a story). This might be my irrational fear but it is my worry.

[Grinning Soul]

The motivation for writing this was a conversation I was having with Hizashi on this thread.

Hizashi: “I felt Jean was pretty crucial into helping Scott become the man that mutantkind could rally behind during that era (…)”

There was a lot to be said so I decided to create a post about it. But boy... it became longer than I anticipated.

I don't know if anyone will actually have the patience to read it, but I try to keep my promises, so here it is.




*** TRIGGER WARNING ***: I'll talk about trauma here and show some images that refer to it. Please, if this is a difficult subject for you, consider skipping these posts.





I don't know if Classic X-Men is supposed to be canon (I hope not, because I dislike some of the stories with a passion), but "When Dreams are Dust", in issue #42 gives us a good indication of what Scott's late childhood years (early adolescence?) was probably like.

In this story, young Scott is obsessed with airplanes so Dr. Robyn Hanover, a medical doctor who works at the State Home for Foundlings, decides to take him to a sort of annual exhibition at the Sage Air Force Base, where regional pilots can show off their old and new aircrafts and skills. There, they meet her friend Patricia who is married to Rick Bogart, a former pilot himself.

During this exhibition, this happens:



Seeing the red smoke triggered a classic PTSD symptom on the boy. Even if this story isn't canon, it isn't a stretch to imagine Scott experienced something like that indeed.

Anyway, despite what happened, Scott begs Dr. Hanover to bring him back to the base and, feeling sorry for him, she does that. There, he spends time with Rick, who is very intrigued with the stuff Scott said during his flashback episode.

He talks to the boy and asks about his father and a bit of Scott's history.



Scott mentions his home is located at a cold place but when Rick asks where is that, he seems confused. He also says: "I was in the hospital a long time. Coma. I'm a brain case, there's something majorly wrong with my head. That's how I lost my memories. It's also why I've never been adopted. Damaged goods."

That's the kind of self-esteem the poor boy has at that time.

After that, Dr. Hanover and her friends take Scott to have a big sundae. While the boy tackles the ice cream, they're talking about his past.



She explains his medical history: he suffered major cranial injury which resulted in brain damage, but the only lasting effect seems to be that his eyes are very sensitive. The one thing that gives him some relief is using the ruby quartz lenses. She adds: "probably, within a few years, he'll have to wear glasses of them permanently, which of course will do "wonders" for his sense of isolation".

So, when we do meet him later as an X-Men, he is indeed wearing such ruby quartz lenses non-stop and it has become a major problem to him, not only because those lenses represent that injury and the pain of being orphaned and unwanted, but it also part of his mutant power that is unstoppable and ridiculously destructive.

[Grinning Soul]

Anyway, back to the story, Dr. Hanover explains she discovered Scott had a brother who was adopted almost immediately after the accident, but since the records were sealed, she doesn't know where he can be.

Despite all those problems, Rick seems interested in adopting Scott and Patricia seems to be on board.

So Dr. Hanover goes back to the orphanage to give the news to the Administrator of the facility who is, in fact, Mr. Sinister. Scott is listening to the conversation:

- Hanover: I thought our reason for being was to care for these youngsters until a decent home could be provided them.
- Pearson/Sinister: Well, er, yes, quite so... But there are procedures!
- Hanover: Are you suggesting, Mr. Pearson, that colonel Bogart and his wife are unsuitable as parents? He's career air force and our own evaluation profile rates them near the top! They care for the boy as strongly as he does for them. Blazes, they're the first people in years to even express an interest in Scott! A person might almost get the impression, sir, that we're out to find families for every child but him.
- Pearson/Sinister: I can see there's no talking to you when you're in such state. I must say, however, I'm more than a little disappointed by your lack of professionalism.
- Hanover: Does that mean you intend to oppose the Bogart's application?
- Pearson/Sinister: You set this events in motion, Dr. Hanover. We'll simply have to watch them take their proper course. On your head be it.

And we see young Scott with a big smile as he hears it (oh, sweet boy, I love you so!)

So, next time we see him, he spending time with Rick and this happens:



You see... even after he heard the conversation between the "Mr. Pearson" and Dr. Hanover in which it is clear that the Bogarts want to adopt him, Scott's self-esteem is so low he takes what Rick is saying negatively and assumes the worst: "Oh, I get it. You don't want me at all. You just want to dump me on someone else!"

That is the defense mechanism he's built already: assume the worst and you'll rarely be disappointed. But, despite his low self-esteem and the armour he's building around himself at this young age, he allows himself to believe that his life is about to take a turn for the better.

Of course, Sinister is having none of that. He kidnaps Dr. Hanover and does something to her mind. Next time we see her, this is how she's acting:



And we see on the last panel the the Bogarts suffered an "unfortunate" accident.

(Note: "Nate", the boy who is Scott's only friend, is also Sinister.)

Now, Claremont sometimes added some spiritual/religious stuff in the story. He'd never make a point of it, never try to push it down the reader's throat, but it was there. At the end of this story, he pretty much shows that Scott and Jean are soul-mates. Again, whether if it's cannon or not, it's not very relevant, but it helps explaining - if the reader is inclined to consider that a possibility - why they fell in love with each other so deeply and so fast.

[Grinning Soul]

Like I said, I don't know if "When Dreams are Dust" is canon. But when it comes to Scott, none of that is a stretch. We know he was in an accident, we know he suffered head injury that left him in a coma, we know Alex was adopted and Scott ended up in the orphanage run by Sinister. We know that after he escapes that monster he ends up victim of another one (on another day that must have been very traumatizing to say the least).

When Scott and Charles defeat Jack Winters and Scott joins the school as the first student, this is what is on his mind:



So this is the reality of our boy: he had to deal with loss, abandonment, rejection. He learnt to push down emotions and trauma so he could be functional. He became an over-achiever to prove his worth to others and to himself (which made him take duty *very* seriously). He built layers and layers of armor to distance himself, so never to suffer anymore. He really disliked his power because he couldn't control it and he was very afraid of hurting or killing someone (which probably made his need of self-control even more intense and harmful).

But then... a certain redhead girl walks in the school. And she immediately changes the dynamics of the group. She’s a mutant, also learning how to control her powers. She's sweet, loving and caring. She's smart and poised and she knows how to stand her ground. And poor Scott can't resist that:



(Note: while the boys are competing to see who will accompany her on the mission, she actually chooses to go out with Scott, but that's before Warren literally carries her away in the most mischievous, playful and fun way).

Moreover, being family-oriented, and being away from her family, she does something magical: she turns the X-Men in a family and that... well, that is fatal for our boy. And look at this: he’s happy, relaxed, having fun! :)



Warren thinks: "This is the first time I've seen Cyclops smile in months! Ol'Scott should do it more often!" Now, that face of his shows a suspicious expression for a reason: he is wondering if his friend is feeling this happy because of Jean.

[Grinning Soul]

So Charles is about to leave and he names Scott the interim leader. Meanwhile, Warren finds out that Scott is not the only one who has a crush on a team mate:



Now, here's the thing. Jean never gives up on her feelings for him, even without any prove that he feels the same. And because she never gives up, he eventually gathers the courage to tell her how he feels. But it's a long process to get there. So let’s see how it went.

Charles is about to leave for a while and he chooses Scott to lead the group until he returns.

Scott, then, tells the rest of the group:

- Scott: I want you to know that I didn't ask for this assignment! In fact, I didn't desire it! I had been thinking of leaving the X-Men!
- Warren: Leaving the X-Men?? Why, Scotty?
- Scott: You know how I fear the power beam which emanates from my eyes--! I shudder to think what would happen if it ever accidently gets out of my control! I had hoped to visit various doctors-- to seek a cure! But, the professor convinced me it is my duty to remain-- to use my power against all evil -- no matter how I dread the task!

As the interim leader, he thinks he can’t tell Jean how he feels:



Still in this issue, at the very end of it, we have this dialogue:

- Hank: And I'm back where I belong too... with the X-Men! Thanks for not blasting me till I could do what had to be done, Scott!
- Scott: Deep down, I never really lost faith in you, Hank!
- Jean: That's what makes you the leader you are!

If that approval, from the girl he loves, didn't make teen Scott more confident in his role, I don't know what could! :D

When Charles comes back, he's finally gathering the courage, but then his low self-esteem gets in the way because his gorgeous, glamorous, rich friend is interested in the same girl and there's no way he can win, right?

[Grinning Soul]

But that's not all. On top of his low self-esteem due to his background and personal history, there is also his fear concerning his power. He gets really depressed and he decides to leave.



Of course, he comes back, but he isn't feeling much better (Charles is worried about him). The more he compared himself to Warren, the more unworthy he felt and when added to the destructive nature of his power, it became a perfect storm (no pun intended :P)



Shortly after that, Jean's parents insist she goes to college and Scott is convinced he lost his chance with her. But it turns out, she doesn't actually leave the team and he can't stop feeling the way he feels about her whenever he sees her.

She’s making new friends at college, including a guy who offered help and showed interest the moment she walked in the campus. But she is still very much in love with Scott.

At about this time, Warren decides he's had enough with that situation but he's still carrying a torch for her and he's not quite ready for moving on just yet.

[Grinning Soul]

Charles asks Jean to get to Metro's library and collect some books on Mayan history and legends. Later, when she brings the books to the mansion, she asks about Scott. He hears that and he seems to finally accept that she likes him. On the way to San Rico, he's thinking:



Warren feels jealous about it. The team (without Jean) arrive in San Rico and the Professor explains they'll be on their own. When Scott says: "We'll do out best, sir!", Warren replies: "That's what I like in a deputy leader -- originality!" Hanks comments about that retort and Charles remind them that the freedom of the world may be at stake and there must be no dissension among them. Warren promises there won't be and he admits to himself his ego is hurt because Jean prefers Scott, but he'll get over it. Being the awesome guy that he is, he actually apologises to Scott for getting out of line a couple of times and he replies: "Forget it, Warren! I do come on a bit like goody two-shoes sometimes".

But then, during the fight with the villain, this happens:



As the boys arrive back at the mansion carrying Warren on a stretch, Charles senses Scott is filled with guilt and self-doubt. He warns them to be careful not to do any sudden movement and cause irreparable damage to Warren's wings. Scott replies he can at least handle not dropping his end of the stretcher and Warren, even under a lot of pain, tells him not to blame himself because it was his fault and he was delirious when he accused Scott before. But, of course, Scott doesn't believe it: