Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Hizashi]

I want to post and re-post some images, so I need to break the reply in two. Sorry.

I wasn't being literal. It's my weird sense of humour.

Hickman's Scott was all about being happy, carpe diem, dreaming etc...

Duggan's Scott doesn't seem very different. In issue 1:

spoilers:

He says he loves creating stuff, creates a tree-house, tells Ben not to let responsibilities get in the way of doing the things he loves, push the responsibility of the zoning to X-Corp AND tells Lorna that if she killed Wanda, he doesn't want to know

end of spoilers

I mean, I know the green dress is distracting, but he managed to get a hold of himself around it when he was a teenager. I expect *more* from his adult self!

Oh, looks like I was the one who missed a joke this time, haha, sorry. Scott is acting a little bit, uh, oddly for him. Guess they just really want to set him up for the fall.

You know, when I first heard that Bidden loves ice cream, I immediately thought to myself, is that an Irish American thing?

More than loving ice cream, I can actually see some similarities in their behaviour.

Unfortunately, I don't know any Irish-Americans to ask...

Oh, yeah. It was just the first issue, it's too early to judge, but I had enough hope to give it a fair chance and that's what I'll keep doing for now.

But I want Scott to come up with more plans for the action and bark more orders, though. 'Cause, you know, I love that. Let him be the field leader he is.

Another thing? This whole Krakoa era feels so... easy. The X-Men used to have to earn it. They were badass because they trained like badasses. I want too see more merit and less "mutants are gods who can do everything".

I think it's one of the reasons Scott seems a little lacklustre. Our boy shines when it comes to preparedness, training, effort, merit, etc...

It does seem a little easy. Scott should be coordinating, and there should be variety in match-ups with the team. We should see what their training regiment is.

Okay. You win. I don't think I've spent that much at once. And I really don't want to think on how much I spent over the years.

I work overtime hours semi-regularly, so that means it's time to splurge. I'm sure I've spent thousands on books in my lifetime - I just purchased another $80 or so on books this week, I just love books of all kinds.

Most things are open here too and that's the problem: the number of new daily infections are growing exponentially again... *sigh* Europe doesn't learn.

Well, I hope y'all get it together over there, so far where I'm at there isn't much to worry about yet.

And they didn't lie about being a mess. I'm telling you, Stan's answers to the letters are many times better than the comics!

I love learning about the people behind the comics that I love; I just recently finished reading two books about Jack Kirby. Next I'd like to read one about either Marvel Comics in general or Stan Lee in particular.

Exactly: I see the charm in the cool, edgy ones. I like them too.

But I don't want my responsible, mature ones to be turned into something else. They're not boring to me at all. I love them because they are like this. I'm mostly okay-ish with Utopia era Scott because he doesn't completely turned into someone else (though I did have trouble recognising him at times), but I missed the guy he was before The Twelve soooooooooooooooo much! And I still do, because this Scott we have now - who reads like he's high on Krakoan tea, engages in magical thinking and is ready to go on a semi-incoherent rant about happiness at the mere, tangential mention of it on a conversation - creeps me out.

Same with the sweet, caring ones like Jean. I love that she has a volcanic temper. Really. But I don't want her to be a heartless, raging, edgy woman.

Exactly, I can personally reconcile Utopia Scott with the classic take because of the context of that era - but I also understood the trepidation that some Scott fans felt. Haha, and now I won't be able to avoid noticing Stepford Scott. As far as Jean, she seems to have the quantity, now she just needs the quality.

Was it that bad too?

I think at some point (back at Marvel) he was writing so many books it really drained his creativity. By the time he got to the X-Men, it was clear he didn't know what to do with them.

So I couldn't agree more and I've been saying it since then: he needs a break.

There were a few big things and small things about his take on Superman that really didn't work for me - one that still really irks fans is that he aged up Jon, Clark and Lois' son, by ten years, right after breaking the family up in a contrived plot development. I know he has his fans, but I don't know anyone personally or tangentially who liked his run.

Nothing wrong with a break, I'm not asking him to go away forever.

Yeah. Especially for our boy. I can see Jean having some other interesting matches in the X-corner of the the MU (if she can escape the fate of being stuck with Logan, that is). But Scott will probably be paired up with a former villain in need of rehabilitation to which the writers want to prop their popularity because they're her fans.

Just let our heroes be truly heroic and in love, damn it. When you find someone like that, that is cut from the same cloth as you, and *still* complements you so well; that helps you grow, that is to you like the continent and a huge river like the Amazon, instead of a little pot that limits your growth; who truly admires and gets you, you never let them go. Unless, of course, you're a complete idiot. And if you're not a complete idiot - and none of those characters are - you know such connection is rare, you fight for that relationship, you make it work.

To illustrate what I'm talking about (but there's so much more to it)...

What her *clone* never understood:

- Scott: What about--?
- Jean: --The X-Men?! This is our home, Scott... We belong here. We belong together. I'd sooner ask you to leave, than I'd ask you to grow another arm.

What even Logan can see:

"You guys are something special, and most of the times, you don't even see it. You go together like fire and ice, like a hurricane and its eye. It sounds strange, but it fits. One can't exist without the other - each one makes the whole stronger than the parts."

At the end of the day, trying to overcome what Jott has would almost require denigrating it by the other "matches".

Yeah, asking Scott to leave the X-Men was a mistake. And that letter from Logan really should have closed the door on that issue.

[Hizashi]

She gets him:



- Jean: My husband... he is not so very unlike you. He almost lost his own son forever... Because of that creature. He, like you, is a passionate, driven man. And he has suffered greatly... But he doesn't let that ruin him.

Later:

- Essex: So this must be your husband, about whom you spoke with so much affection. A man who has also been labeled... obsessed. How do you do it, sit? How do you manage to suffer, to grieve, to persevere and yet love and be loved by this woman?



He gets her:



- Jean: What does it say about the kind of person I am, Scott?
- Scott: Honey, it only means you're human, like the rest of us--

But, yeah, considering how Marvel can be so blind when it comes to what they have in their hands... It might be the last era in which they are allowed to be together. So let them be very happy and very affectionate like they used to. And let us enjoy while we can.



Mercury is turning them into the "Phoenix Revelations" (and posting them on "Is Krakoa Evil?" thread), which is a Sinister Secret style, cryptic phrasing of those possibilities.

They're better and more interesting than anything I could have written.

Very nice, I'm gonna work my way there eventually.

I'll have to check out Mercury's posts then.

[Grinning Soul]

Oh, looks like I was the one who missed a joke this time, haha, sorry. Scott is acting a little bit, uh, oddly for him. Guess they just really want to set him up for the fall.

They’re all acting a little off to say the least. That makes me think it’s intentional and that’s why I started making that list of things that could indicate there’s an actual external influence on them that is affecting their behaviour.

So… Scott wouldn’t be the only one set up for the fall.

But it’s also likely they’ll pin it all on Onslaught and pretend that’s it. But that won’t be enough for me. I want my beloved characters back and whole.

Unfortunately, I don't know any Irish-Americans to ask...

I think most people like ice cream so it was just my weird sense of humour. I do see some similarities between Bidden and Matt. And even between RFK and Matt.

And some of it, I think, has to do with their Catholic Irish-American upbringing, which I find fascinating. But I’m not even American so I’m definitely not an authority on the subject. :)

It does seem a little easy. Scott should be coordinating, and there should be variety in match-ups with the team. We should see what their training regiment is.

Do they even have a Danger Room anywhere in Krakoa? I’m not even talking about the Treehouse (that doesn’t seem to have one) only. Really: anywhere, in any of the islands/habitats, for any of the teams.

I work overtime hours semi-regularly, so that means it's time to splurge. I'm sure I've spent thousands on books in my lifetime - I just purchased another $80 or so on books this week, I just love books of all kinds.

Stop tempting me: I don’t want to think about the money I’ve spend on comic books! :P

On books, I guess, it’d be fine to try to guess it, but probably more scary! :D

Well, I hope y'all get it together over there, so far where I'm at there isn't much to worry about yet.

But there will be unless you guys understand we’re just some weeks ahead and you start toughening the restrictions again right now.

I love learning about the people behind the comics that I love; I just recently finished reading two books about Jack Kirby. Next I'd like to read one about either Marvel Comics in general or Stan Lee in particular.

Stan’s interviews are so funny. When he died, I felt like I lost a potential friend. Same with David Bowie. It’s a weird feeling…

Exactly, I can personally reconcile Utopia Scott with the classic take because of the context of that era - but I also understood the trepidation that some Scott fans felt. Haha, and now I won't be able to avoid noticing Stepford Scott. As far as Jean, she seems to have the quantity, now she just needs the quality.

There was the context of the era and the context of the character. Like I mentioned on the posts about Jean’s influence on him, I saw that whole era as his being closed off to everything related to her, like he had done before. That closed him off to some emotions in general as well.

For instance, he wouldn’t consider much his past actions because that would inevitably lead to: “I can’t believe I’ve done that. What would Jean say if she had been alive?”

So he became laser-focused on survival, never looking back, doing whatever it took because keeping busy helps not thinking, not self-reflecting.

And that’s actually very in-character for him, even though it’s very unhealthy and I didn’t like to see him going through it. But when you considered that, there was still enough of Scott in there to be believable. So I could be okay-ish with it, despite the fact I sorely missed the man he had been.

What do you mean with “Stepford Scott”? As in Stepford Wives? :D

There were a few big things and small things about his take on Superman that really didn't work for me - one that still really irks fans is that he aged up Jon, Clark and Lois' son, by ten years, right after breaking the family up in a contrived plot development. I know he has his fans, but I don't know anyone personally or tangentially who liked his run.

Nothing wrong with a break, I'm not asking him to go away forever.

It’s like he’s been very concerned about leaving his mark, but not through actual great story-telling, but simply by doing controversial things for the sake of it.

At the end of the day, trying to overcome what Jott has would almost require denigrating it by the other "matches".

I’d never write a future relationship as trying to overcome Scott and Jean's love. Their relationship is just too good to be overcome, which is why I'd always keep them together.

But if I had to write something else, I’d write any further relationship as interesting as it can be, without making comparisons or trying to convince the readers that the current one is better. That would never work.

My favourite pair for Jean, if they ever break their marriage apart, would be Warren. He never forced himself on her even though he carried a torch for her (at least) up to the day she got married. But he never said a word about it. Instead, he learnt to be be happy for both his friends. He's such an awesome guy! :)

He was a hero before he was an X-Men. He has his own experience with alternate personas and identity struggles. He was always there whenever she wanted to try something and he’s not afraid of trying new approaches himself. He’s brave and fun and loyal and I believe they’d be great together.

And I don't think it would be weird when it came to Scott, because it's not like Warren became his friend after he was in a relationship with Jean already. Meaning, when Warren met Jean she wasn't Scott's girlfriend. They both met her on the same day and they both fell for her at the same time. So I think it's fair. And I think if Scott would be okay to see Jean with someone else it would be Warren, exactly because he knows Warren is a great guy.

Like I said somewhere else, they’d get to spend his fortune on crazy charitable projects and mutant outreach endeavours, they’d attend glamorous parties and diplomatic meetings, they’d fly all over and they’d make the cutest redhead cherubs ever.

And that’s how I’d frame it. I wouldn’t have Jean constantly saying: “You’re so much more fun than Scott, War” or “I actually love that you love dressing up” or “And imagine that! You prefer to spend the night in bed with me instead of working your worries in the Danger Room or fixing something like Scott. You’re so easy going, my Angel”. Ugh…

Yeah, asking Scott to leave the X-Men was a mistake.

Madelyne did a bit more than “asking”. It’s what I meant: not even Jean’s clone was like Jean is this regard. Jean is a hero. Scott is a hero. They’re cut from the same cloth. They don’t need to explain why they feel compelled to sacrifice their lives and happiness, why doing the right thing matters, why responsibility and duty matters. They just get it because it’s part of their very cores.

And that letter from Logan really should have closed the door on that issue.

It had. Until Morrison decided to re-open that door again.

Very nice, I'm gonna work my way there eventually.

Lancer mentioned another one of my favourite interactions between them and I thought of sharing it here.

Does it bother you that I’m posting those moments?

I'll have to check out Mercury's posts then.

There have been 4 so far and they’re very creative. :)

[Hizashi]

They’re all acting a little off to say the least. That makes me think it’s intentional and that’s why I started making that list of things that could indicate there’s an actual external influence on them that is affecting their behaviour.

So… Scott wouldn’t be the only one set up for the fall.

But it’s also likely they’ll pin it all on Onslaught and pretend that’s it. But that won’t be enough for me. I want my beloved characters back and whole.

Yeah, it wouldn't be enough for me either.

I know many characters are acting odd, but in this case it was Scott making the odd speech.

I think most people like ice cream so it was just my weird sense of humour. I do see some similarities between Bidden and Matt. And even between RFK and Matt.

And some of it, I think, has to do with their Catholic Irish-American upbringing, which I find fascinating. But I’m not even American so I’m definitely not an authority on the subject.

I don't usually make connections between characters and real-world figures, I guess my mind doesn't work that way, although Americans being fond of ice cream is a cliché I can get behind.

Do they even have a Danger Room anywhere in Krakoa? I’m not even talking about the Treehouse (that doesn’t seem to have one) only. Really: anywhere, in any of the islands/habitats, for any of the teams.

I don't think I've seen it.

Stop tempting me: I don’t want to think about the money I’ve spend on comic books! :P

On books, I guess, it’d be fine to try to guess it, but probably more scary!

I am a bibliophile, I buy a book every week or every other week.

But there will be unless you guys understand we’re just some weeks ahead and you start toughening the restrictions again right now.

I think in my locality, our vaxxing and mask wearing is pretty good. I'm hopeful that we're being just about the right amount of cautious.

Stan’s interviews are so funny. When he died, I felt like I lost a potential friend. Same with David Bowie. It’s a weird feeling…

These great creative minds become a huge part of our lives, even almost like a friend we haven't seen in a long time.

There was the context of the era and the context of the character. Like I mentioned on the posts about Jean’s influence on him, I saw that whole era as his being closed off to everything related to her, like he had done before. That closed him off to some emotions in general as well.

For instance, he wouldn’t consider much his past actions because that would inevitably lead to: “I can’t believe I’ve done that. What would Jean say if she had been alive?”

So he became laser-focused on survival, never looking back, doing whatever it took because keeping busy helps not thinking, not self-reflecting.

And that’s actually very in-character for him, even though it’s very unhealthy and I didn’t like to see him going through it. But when you considered that, there was still enough of Scott in there to be believable. So I could be okay-ish with it, despite the fact I sorely missed the man he had been.

What do you mean with “Stepford Scott”? As in Stepford Wives?

Yeah, that's a great way of interpreting that era.

Haha, yeah, Stepford Wives. Stepford - blandly conformist and submissive.

It’s like he’s been very concerned about leaving his mark, but not through actual great story-telling, but simply by doing controversial things for the sake of it.

That might be it. I just wish more writers would concern themselves with the story-telling.

I’d never write a future relationship as trying to overcome Scott and Jean's love. Their relationship is just too good to be overcome, which is why I'd always keep them together.

But if I had to write something else, I’d write any further relationship as interesting as it can be, without making comparisons or trying to convince the readers that the current one is better. That would never work.

My favourite pair for Jean, if they ever break their marriage apart, would be Warren. He never forced himself on her even though he carried a torch for her (at least) up to the day she got married. But he never said a word about it. Instead, he learnt to be be happy for both his friends. He's such an awesome guy!

He was a hero before he was an X-Men. He has his own experience with alternate personas and identity struggles. He was always there whenever she wanted to try something and he’s not afraid of trying new approaches himself. He’s brave and fun and loyal and I believe they’d be great together.

And I don't think it would be weird when it came to Scott, because it's not like Warren became his friend after he was in a relationship with Jean already. Meaning, when Warren met Jean she wasn't Scott's girlfriend. They both met her on the same day and they both fell for her at the same time. So I think it's fair. And I think if Scott would be okay to see Jean with someone else it would be Warren, exactly because he knows Warren is a great guy.

Like I said somewhere else, they’d get to spend his fortune on crazy charitable projects and mutant outreach endeavours, they’d attend glamorous parties and diplomatic meetings, they’d fly all over and they’d make the cutest redhead cherubs ever.

And that’s how I’d frame it. I wouldn’t have Jean constantly saying: “You’re so much more fun than Scott, War” or “I actually love that you love dressing up” or “And imagine that! You prefer to spend the night in bed with me instead of working your worries in the Danger Room or fixing something like Scott. You’re so easy going, my Angel”. Ugh…

That's because you have the right approach - unfortunately that's not the modus operandi.

Madelyne did a bit more than “asking”. It’s what I meant: not even Jean’s clone was like Jean is this regard. Jean is a hero. Scott is a hero. They’re cut from the same cloth. They don’t need to explain why they feel compelled to sacrifice their lives and happiness, why doing the right thing matters, why responsibility and duty matters. They just get it because it’s part of their very cores.

And that's also the correct approach. Was that another example of Claremont's mistakes, pushing Maddie to retire Cyclops?

It had. Until Morrison decided to re-open that door again.

And I wish he hadn't. I love Morrison, and most of his work, even his New X-Men - but it was clearly flawed.

Lancer mentioned another one of my favourite interactions between them and I thought of sharing it here.

Does it bother you that I’m posting those moments?

Not at all, but I appreciate your concern. Really don't worry about it, post to your hearts' content.

There have been 4 so far and they’re very creative.

Lets go that direction please.

[Grinning Soul]

Yeah, it wouldn't be enough for me either.

I know many characters are acting odd, but in this case it was Scott making the odd speech.

Yeah. You know… Since X-Factor #10 was released, I’ve been thinking about it.

spoilers:

- Kyle: Wouldn't it remove important context? - Jean-Paul: Non. - Kyle: But... why choose to discard something formative like trauma? - Jean-Paul: Because then we get back a not-dead, not-traumatized mutant! - Kyle: ... Yeah, okay, makes sense. - Jean-Paul: #$%&'s sake, Kyle! - Kyle: No, you're right-- you're right. I get it. I'm sorry.

end of spoilers

We know something weird happened with Domino’s resurrection. What if they did something like that to Scott? Would it explain the difference?

So I’ve been thinking about it ever since and then I woke up with the answer in my mind today. Literally.

And this is what I thought: “well, just yesterday you were writing about how your personality is ridiculously similar to Scott’s. But you never lived through the very traumatic experiences he had. So while trauma is indeed formative, it doesn’t account to core characteristics of one’s personality, it may just enhance them or make them less strong. So, no, damn it! Scott should still be pro-active, worrier, control freak (even if to a lesser extent), protective, possessive, over-achiever, rational, private, introspective, focused, workaholic, demanding, realist etc…”

There must be a higher degree of tampering with his mind/biochemistry to explain his odd behaviour.

I don't usually make connections between characters and real-world figures, I guess my mind doesn't work that way, although Americans being fond of ice cream is a cliché I can get behind.

I didn’t use to do it either. But I have a friend who loves this kind of stuff so he often makes me think about it. :D

I don't think I've seen it.

In a QC meeting, Scott mentions they’ve training (who is "they"? He didn’t even had a team). But the only thing remotely similar to training that I’ve seen (and remember) was in the New Mutants book where some of the protagonist are teaching the kids how to use their powers in synergy. But they’re just in the middle of their habitat. It’s not an actual training facility.

I am a bibliophile, I buy a book every week or every other week.

You take the cake again. :)

I think in my locality, our vaxxing and mask wearing is pretty good. I'm hopeful that we're being just about the right amount of cautious.

I hope so too. Yesterday we had over 10,000 cases here. It’s more than 9x higher than a week ago. And it's most likely under-reported because the testing facilities of some areas can't handle the demand.

These great creative minds become a huge part of our lives, even almost like a friend we haven't seen in a long time.

Judging by their interviews, I had the feeling I’d love to have talked to them. And I know that would never have happened anyway, but when they died it became certain, so it’s a like a weird loss even though it’s not a loss at all.

I accept them, but I don’t like when my feelings don’t make sense. :P

Yeah, that's a great way of interpreting that era.

Yeah, well… I don’t know if that’s what the writers intended, but it fits his history and it makes sense for the character. I know other people will read it differently, because I don’t think it was ever explicitly explained it that way, but I’m a sucker for the parts of continuity that relates to characterisation.

Haha, yeah, Stepford Wives. Stepford - blandly conformist and submissive.

How much cake do you want to get in the same message? :D

I’m totally stealing that for my headcanon. Stepford Scott is absolutely brilliant! :D



Lucy once told me: “let him be happy” and I replied: “but I’ve seen Scott happy since X-Men #6 (the comics from the 60s) and that’s not what happy Scott looks like!” :D

But Stepford Scott? Yeah. :D

That might be it. I just wish more writers would concern themselves with the story-telling.

Yep. Get their egos out of the way and focus on the story.

That's because you have the right approach - unfortunately that's not the modus operandi.

Don’t I know? I’ve read through it for a good part of 15 year. It was lovely!

And that's also the correct approach. Was that another example of Claremont's mistakes, pushing Maddie to retire Cyclops?

Depends on how you see it. From an off-book perspective, it was a mistake to put him in that relationship. But once he was in it, it would have been a mistake to portray Madelyne as if she would just accept his risking his life and not to try to get him retired. She wanted them to have a normal life and once she got pregnant it made even more sense for her not to want him to live that life of danger.

The thing is that Scott, being a rational person, should have seen it coming and should have understood Madelyne was not the one for him. At the same time, he knew she was the closest thing he’d ever have of Jean again (in some ways, she *was* Jean - the Phoenix fragment that had been Jean animated that cloned body into life and it remained within it) and his feeling for her had always been too intense.

And I wish he hadn't. I love Morrison, and most of his work, even his New X-Men - but it was clearly flawed.

He didn’t know, care or respected the history of the characters. I’d say it was the same thing as Bendis: he wanted to leave his mark or he thought his opinions mattered more than what was canon.

Now, the execution was light-years better than Bendis’, but the principle was the same.

What do I mean by that? He may have thought Scott was too boring or too uninteresting, so he wanted to change him.

He may have thought Scott held Jean back from her potential, so he wanted to set her free of him. A lot of people would agree with that - people who don’t bother to actually know their story (Did Scott break up with her when she left the team? No. Did Scott leave her when she started abusing her power as Phoenix? No. Or after she had actually destroyed a stellar system? No. Did Scott stop her from forming the X-Factor? No. Did Scott break up with her or pressured her when she didn’t want to marry him? No. Did Scott marry her when she propose to him? Yes.) How exactly does Scott stop Jean from doing anything? I don’t know. He just worries about her. He loves her and he’s a worrier so, of course, he worries about her. But she does whatever the hell she wants with her life and he never stopped her or pressured her or tried to limit her in any way. What a stupid echo chamber!



Anyway, I don’t know what went on inside Morrison’s mind, so I can only judge the actual work. But if I had to guess, I’d say he was misinformed or too in love with his ego to care.

Not at all, but I appreciate your concern. Really don't worry about it, post to your hearts' content.

All right. I’ll cut and paste the panels when I have some time, then. I should post them sometime next week. :)

[Peanutsinspace]

Lucas Werneck does it again! Scott and Jean from X-Men #132

[Grinning Soul]

Lucas Werneck does it again! Scott and Jean from X-Men #132

This is too gorgeous. I'm not deserving! :D



Thanks for sharing, Peanutsinspace! :)

[lancer]

Since you mentioned Jean putting Sabretooth in his place, I wanted to have shared this panel before because it ties to her relationship with Logan and the type of love that I mentioned that she has for him - which is not romantic.



"You want the truth? There was something between the two of is. A bond, a deep, loving friendship."

So, yes: it's love and it's deep and it's genuine. But it was not romantic from her part.

As for Scott and Jean being "entity" and stale, that's mostly an echo chamber. Scott and Jean disagreed on lots of things. And she was never a push over. They'd talk and, most of the times, they'd actually do what she wanted. So how does that make her whiny and clingy attached?

What can I say? People don't know how to identify love when it hits them in their face, I suppose? Yeah, a couple who love each other take each other into consideration, find compromises, support each other when they need. What's wrong with that?

As for their kisses... Oh... I haven't gone into the herculean job of posting all of them! Those are decades of comics, Lancer, and I'm only human!

EDIT: Many years ago I posted some panels of their interaction on X-Men (1991) #59 on another forum. Maybe I should do it again here.

Sure wasn't any shortage of 90s kisses. Now that I think of it, X Men 24 is another I'd expect you to post. The so called JeanScott entity was what I used to cal an internet myth. People post it like it's fact and so some seem to think it is.

Yeah, they were joined at the hip never to be parted. Like in that annual where Jean and Beast fought Sinister. The Unlimited where Jean, Gambit and Storm went to Africa when Storm's mentor died. The issue where Jean and Gambit broke into the Pentagon. The Unlimited where Jean helped recruit Chris Bradley to the school. The issue where Jean met Onslaught. The 2 issues with Juggernaut where Jean figured out Onslaught's identity. The issue where Post tested the X Men. It was Scott, Bobby, Logan and Storm. The issue where Scott led the Acolytes through the Australian Outback. Hell, in their second limited series, it was sometime in the third issue before they had any panel time together. They were separated initially. And this was just off the top of my head. Probably something else if I really thought about it. LOL, other than all this stuff, they were joined at the hit.

Issues like X Men 59 were the exception, not the rule. The Sunset Grace issue, XM 35?, is another. If you are never going to see them act like a married couple, what exactly is the point of them being married?

I guess it is what you are comparing it to, When the new book started, they were on different teams for close to 2 years. Not a decision I agreed with, but it certainly led to less interaction between them other than Xcutioner's Song crossover. And Morrison pretty much refused to give them any panel time together other than a couple of early conversations. Well, they has one real conversation about the state of their marriage. 116, his third issue.

So, compared to that I suppose they were comparatively joined at the hip after they lost the blue and gold team setup. But were they objectively written that way? Hardly. Regarding what Jean said, I would add that it is pretty much canon that there is an attraction there. But that is not the same as being in love with him to the degree that it rivaled or threatened what she felt for Scott. Again, leave Chris Claremont on the books in the 90s, make him Jean and Logan's primary writer, and this probably changes. He talked about it in interviews. Still, that is not canon. Canon is what sees print.

[Grinning Soul]

Sure wasn't any shortage of 90s kisses. Now that I think of it, X Men 24 is another I'd expect you to post.

I posted it already. :)

The so called JeanScott entity was what I used to cal an internet myth. People post it like it's fact and so some seem to think it is.

I call it an echo chamber. Someone says it, no one fact-checks it. People starts repeating it. It becomes an entity with a life of its own, forever being perpetrated, regardless of any factual base.

Yeah, they were joined at the hip never to be parted. Like in that annual where Jean and Beast fought Sinister. The Unlimited where Jean, Gambit and Storm went to Africa when Storm's mentor died. The issue where Jean and Gambit broke into the Pentagon. The Unlimited where Jean helped recruit Chris Bradley to the school. The issue where Jean met Onslaught. The 2 issues with Juggernaut where Jean figured out Onslaught's identity. The issue where Post tested the X Men. It was Scott, Bobby, Logan and Storm. The issue where Scott led the Acolytes through the Australian Outback. Hell, in their second limited series, it was sometime in the third issue before they had any panel time together. They were separated initially. And this was just off the top of my head. Probably something else if I really thought about it. LOL, other than all this stuff, they were joined at the hit.

Issues like X Men 59 were the exception, not the rule. The Sunset Grace issue, XM 35?, is another. If you are never going to see them act like a married couple, what exactly is the point of them being married?

You're preaching to the choir! :D

I could see a kiss or an affectionate interaction or even playful wink (from her, 'cause his would be a little hard to actually see) every single issue! :D

Or another snowball fight, especially if it ends with a kiss.

I'm a fan of the couple. I can never get enough of them being their lovely selves together. :D

I guess it is what you are comparing it to, When the new book started, they were on different teams for close to 2 years. Not a decision I agreed with, but it certainly led to less interaction between them other than Xcutioner's Song crossover. And Morrison pretty much refused to give them any panel time together other than a couple of early conversations. Well, they has one real conversation about the state of their marriage. 116, his third issue.

So, compared to that I suppose they were comparatively joined at the hip after they lost the blue and gold team setup. But were they objectively written that way? Hardly.

And what if they were joined at the hip? Some couples are actually like that in real life, not because they are dependant of each other, but just because they really enjoy each other's company. It doesn't mean they don't spend time on their own or with their friends.

Regarding what Jean said, I would add that it is pretty much canon that there is an attraction there.

There is an attraction, but it's not simply physical and it's not even simply about Logan either. It's like she says in an early panel of the same issue, when she's talking to Scott (see some posts above): "It wasn't so much what I saw in him as what he made me see in myself". This has to do with the trauma of Annie's death and the emergence of her power. But I'll write about it soon, with pictures and everything.

But that is not the same as being in love with him to the degree that it rivaled or threatened what she felt for Scott.

No. Not at all. Even her attraction to Logan is more complex than simply being attracted to the man.

Besides, look at how she kisses Scott. That's the man she's actually attracted to! :D

Again, leave Chris Claremont on the books in the 90s, make him Jean and Logan's primary writer, and this probably changes. He talked about it in interviews. Still, that is not canon. Canon is what sees print.

Exactly. I judge the work for the work. That's how we judge any writer of other media, right? No reason why comic book writers - who are also professionals - should get special treatment.

[Devaishwarya]

Lucas Werneck does it again! Scott and Jean from X-Men #132

This is Exquisite!

[Hizashi]

Yeah. You know… Since X-Factor #10 was released, I’ve been thinking about it.

spoilers:

- Kyle: Wouldn't it remove important context? - Jean-Paul: Non. - Kyle: But... why choose to discard something formative like trauma? - Jean-Paul: Because then we get back a not-dead, not-traumatized mutant! - Kyle: ... Yeah, okay, makes sense. - Jean-Paul: #$%&'s sake, Kyle! - Kyle: No, you're right-- you're right. I get it. I'm sorry.

end of spoilers

We know something weird happened with Domino’s resurrection. What if they did something like that to Scott? Would it explain the difference?

So I’ve been thinking about it ever since and then I woke up with the answer in my mind today. Literally.

And this is what I thought: “well, just yesterday you were writing about how your personality is ridiculously similar to Scott’s. But you never lived through the very traumatic experiences he had. So while trauma is indeed formative, it doesn’t account to core characteristics of one’s personality, it may just enhance them or make them less strong. So, no, damn it! Scott should still be pro-active, worrier, control freak (even if to a lesser extent), protective, possessive, over-achiever, rational, private, introspective, focused, workaholic, demanding, realist etc…”

There must be a higher degree of tampering with his mind/biochemistry to explain his odd behaviour.

I think I agree with you for the most part, although I think I wouldn't choose to outright "remove" my trauma - I'd work through it the old-fashioned way. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, but that is a part of me, it belongs to me.

I didn’t use to do it either. But I have a friend who loves this kind of stuff so he often makes me think about it.

We've all got our quirks, eh?

In a QC meeting, Scott mentions they’ve training (who is "they"? He didn’t even had a team). But the only thing remotely similar to training that I’ve seen (and remember) was in the New Mutants book where some of the protagonist are teaching the kids how to use their powers in synergy. But they’re just in the middle of their habitat. It’s not an actual training facility.

I guess Danger Rooms are out?

You take the cake again.

Well, I don't read them as quickly as I buy them. And then there are some comics/books I read and reread constantly, like Morrison's DC work, or Shelley's Frankenstein.

I hope so too. Yesterday we had over 10,000 cases here. It’s more than 9x higher than a week ago. And it's most likely under-reported because the testing facilities of some areas can't handle the demand.

Jeez, I'm sorry about that. I hope you and yours are safe.

Judging by their interviews, I had the feeling I’d love to have talked to them. And I know that would never have happened anyway, but when they died it became certain, so it’s a like a weird loss even though it’s not a loss at all.

I accept them, but I don’t like when my feelings don’t make sense.

I think I would've loved to talk to most of them too.

Yeah, well… I don’t know if that’s what the writers intended, but it fits his history and it makes sense for the character. I know other people will read it differently, because I don’t think it was ever explicitly explained it that way, but I’m a sucker for the parts of continuity that relates to characterisation.

The scale isn't usually what attracts me, I just love stories with strong internal logic and that era worked for me in regards to Scott's characterization - like you said.

How much cake do you want to get in the same message?

I’m totally stealing that for my headcanon. Stepford Scott is absolutely brilliant!



Lucy once told me: “let him be happy” and I replied: “but I’ve seen Scott happy since X-Men #6 (the comics from the 60s) and that’s not what happy Scott looks like!”

But Stepford Scott? Yeah.

Haha, thank you, I feel a little clever for making that connection.

Yep. Get their egos out of the way and focus on the story.

If only.

Don’t I know? I’ve read through it for a good part of 15 year. It was lovely!

I haven't caught up, my track record is spotty.

Depends on how you see it. From an off-book perspective, it was a mistake to put him in that relationship. But once he was in it, it would have been a mistake to portray Madelyne as if she would just accept his risking his life and not to try to get him retired. She wanted them to have a normal life and once she got pregnant it made even more sense for her not to want him to live that life of danger.

The thing is that Scott, being a rational person, should have seen it coming and should have understood Madelyne was not the one for him. At the same time, he knew she was the closest thing he’d ever have of Jean again (in some ways, she *was* Jean - the Phoenix fragment that had been Jean animated that cloned body into life and it remained within it) and his feeling for her had always been too intense.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense once the relationship was in full swing - and yep, Scott should've seen those issues coming. In fact, so should have his friends.

He didn’t know, care or respected the history of the characters. I’d say it was the same thing as Bendis: he wanted to leave his mark or he thought his opinions mattered more than what was canon.

Now, the execution was light-years better than Bendis’, but the principle was the same.

What do I mean by that? He may have thought Scott was too boring or too uninteresting, so he wanted to change him.

He may have thought Scott held Jean back from her potential, so he wanted to set her free of him. A lot of people would agree with that - people who don’t bother to actually know their story (Did Scott break up with her when she left the team? No. Did Scott leave her when she started abusing her power as Phoenix? No. Or after she had actually destroyed a stellar system? No. Did Scott stop her from forming the X-Factor? No. Did Scott break up with her or pressured her when she didn’t want to marry him? No. Did Scott marry her when she propose to him? Yes.) How exactly does Scott stop Jean from doing anything? I don’t know. He just worries about her. He loves her and he’s a worrier so, of course, he worries about her. But she does whatever the hell she wants with her life and he never stopped her or pressured her or tried to limit her in any way. What a stupid echo chamber!



Anyway, I don’t know what went on inside Morrison’s mind, so I can only judge the actual work. But if I had to guess, I’d say he was misinformed or too in love with his ego to care.

The execution is definitely better, and I've enjoyed the majority of Morrison's work. New X-Men was a rare misfire, although one that I still enjoy for the most part. Morrison has conviction, it's an aspect of his work that I appreciate - I think, if I'm generous, Morrison misunderstood Scott and Jean.

All right. I’ll cut and paste the panels when I have some time, then. I should post them sometime next week.

Cool, hit it.

[Grinning Soul]

I think I agree with you for the most part, although I think I wouldn't choose to outright "remove" my trauma - I'd work through it the old-fashioned way. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, but that is a part of me, it belongs to me.

I wouldn’t either, because I agree with Kyle: it wouldn’t change my personality, but trauma is formative.

I agree with you: that is part of me and it belongs to me.

But you know what is the actual insidious thing?

spoilers:

Domino wanted to remember her trauma, but she was resurrected without it.

end of spoilers

Maybe Scott really didn’t have the choice either!

Isn’t that absolutely terrifying?

We've all got our quirks, eh?

This particular friend has many and he does influence me just because we talk often. Because of our conversations, he has made me think so many times on those terms, that now I catch myself doing it every now and then. :D

But hey, my Dr. Pepper can has arrived and I should try it sometimes this week. :D

I honestly think my life is richer because of those interactions and it’s wonderful. :)

I guess Danger Rooms are out?

I think I’ll see if Mercury feels like asking Duggan. :D

Let’s give the book some issues first? Maybe it will appear.

Jeez, I'm sorry about that. I hope you and yours are safe.

Yep. We’ve been inside the house since February 2020, but we’re okay. Don’t worry. :)

I think I would've loved to talk to most of them too.

Do you also happen to like David Bowie? :D

The scale isn't usually what attracts me, I just love stories with strong internal logic and that era worked for me in regards to Scott's characterization - like you said.

Yeah. It mostly worked for me too. It was interesting, it just ended in a frustrating note as we talked about before.

Haha, thank you, I feel a little clever for making that connection.

I say bask in the glory. It’s deserved! :D

I haven't caught up, my track record is spotty.

I think I’m hiding my bitterness too well. Only online that can happen! :D

What I meant was how often the writers felt the need to point out how much better Emma was to Scott than Jean, or how the relationship was better than the previous.

I mean… Jean was even dead. Was she still that threatening? Was that really necessary?

The point is: just write the current relationship for whatever it is, let the old one remain what it was.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense once the relationship was in full swing - and yep, Scott should've seen those issues coming. In fact, so should have his friends.

His friends didn’t even see the problem with Madelyne looking *exactly* like Jean in an universe were shapeshifters exist, just to name one possible problems here! :D

And Scott… yeah, I can understand he’d jump in even though he may have seen the problem, exactly because Madelyne had a part of her that *was* Jean.

But, CC didn’t have to create Madelyne and make Scott meet her, did he?

So let’s say it was an off-book mistake, but it made sense in-story.

The execution is definitely better, and I've enjoyed the majority of Morrison's work. New X-Men was a rare misfire, although one that I still enjoy for the most part. Morrison has conviction, it's an aspect of his work that I appreciate - I think, if I'm generous, Morrison misunderstood Scott and Jean.

Yeah… And he didn’t really think about certain things… Witnessing the destruction of Genosha, for instance, should have been very traumatic for all characters, especially Emma.

It’s this sort of general emotional disconnection throughout the story that really bothers me and makes me not enjoy it, even though I think there are interesting elements in his run.

Cool, hit it.

I’ll post it later today, if I have time. :)

[Grinning Soul]

Like I was telling Lucyinthesky a while ago in Jean's thread, I'd love to see our favourite couple going out on a date in NYC, since their HQ is there now.

This is not exactly a date, but I love seeing their wearing something other than their costumes and doing something as ordinary as going to the movies (especially because I can't due to this stupid, neverending pandemic).







I've always thought they were the heirs of Xavier's dream. The leaders of the next generation. Here's to hoping one day, Krakoa will be in the past, and they can finally show us what their plan, which they came up with during their time in Alaska, for the dream was.

Cheers!

[Hizashi]

I wouldn’t either, because I agree with Kyle: it wouldn’t change my personality, but trauma is formative.

I agree with you: that is part of me and it belongs to me.

But you know what is the actual insidious thing?

spoilers:

Domino wanted to remember her trauma, but she was resurrected without it.

end of spoilers

Maybe Scott really didn’t have the choice either!

Isn’t that absolutely terrifying?

That is pretty terrifying. Wow, Scott and Jean can't get far enough from Krakoa.

This particular friend has many and he does influence me just because we talk often. Because of our conversations, he has made me think so many times on those terms, that now I catch myself doing it every now and then.

But hey, my Dr. Pepper can has arrived and I should try it sometimes this week.

I honestly think my life is richer because of those interactions and it’s wonderful.

Where I live and where I work, there are plenty of characters and it's usually pretty interesting interacting with them. I haven't picked up many quirks, which I'm glad about - I've got enough to worry about.

I think I’ll see if Mercury feels like asking Duggan.

Let’s give the book some issues first? Maybe it will appear.

Yeah, we'll give the book some time.

Yep. We’ve been inside the house since February 2020, but we’re okay. Don’t worry.

Geez, that sounds worrisome! I'm not an extrovert by any means, but I enjoy being outside, pretty much on a daily basis. You're stronger or more patient than me.

Do you also happen to like David Bowie?

Yep, I got plenty of his music on my phone (my favorites include Heroes, Starman, Changes, Lazarus), plus after his passing we changed a street in my city to David Bowie St. Only lasted for a few weeks, but it was neat.

Yeah. It mostly worked for me too. It was interesting, it just ended in a frustrating note as we talked about before.

Haha, yeah, that's an understatement.

I say bask in the glory. It’s deserved!

Haha, okay, I will. Thanks.

I think I’m hiding my bitterness too well. Only online that can happen!

What I meant was how often the writers felt the need to point out how much better Emma was to Scott than Jean, or how the relationship was better than the previous.

I mean… Jean was even dead. Was she still that threatening? Was that really necessary?

The point is: just write the current relationship for whatever it is, let the old one remain what it was.

Exactly, that's what I was alluding to a few posts ago! I thought Scott and Emma's relationship should have been allowed to work on its own merits, not through disparaging Jean or Jott. Talk about disappointing.

His friends didn’t even see the problem with Madelyne looking *exactly* like Jean in an universe were shapeshifters exist, just to name one possible problems here!

And Scott… yeah, I can understand he’d jump in even though he may have seen the problem, exactly because Madelyne had a part of her that *was* Jean.

But, CC didn’t have to create Madelyne and make Scott meet her, did he?

So let’s say it was an off-book mistake, but it made sense in-story.

I think there was an idea (I can't remember if it was just someone on here positing it or if there was ever even a vague plan to do so from Marvel) that maybe Scott and Ororo could've been together. They were the team parents for a while, right? I think I would've welcomed that over what we got, but I guess it always comes down to execution.

Yeah… And he didn’t really think about certain things… Witnessing the destruction of Genosha, for instance, should have been very traumatic for all characters, especially Emma.

It’s this sort of general emotional disconnection throughout the story that really bothers me and makes me not enjoy it, even though I think there are interesting elements in his run.

Yeah, I noticed that too - Morrison needed the characters to behave a certain way to get to his desired high-concept drama.

I’ll post it later today, if I have time.

Excellent.

[Hizashi]

Like I was telling Lucyinthesky a while ago in Jean's thread, I'd love to see our favourite couple going out on a date in NYC, since their HQ is there now.

This is not exactly a date, but I love seeing their wearing something other than their costumes and doing something as ordinary as going to the movies (especially because I can't due to this stupid, neverending pandemic).







I've always thought they were the heirs of Xavier's dream. The leaders of the next generation. Here's to hoping one day, Krakoa will be in the past, and they can finally show us what their plan, which they came up with during their time in Alaska, for the dream was.

Cheers!

I like:

Scott's cap
Jean calling him "hubby"
Scott giving Jean his coat
How they can't keep their hands off of each other

How do we feel about Scott's facial hair? Yay or nay?