Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Grinning Soul]

I agree I wish I could tell you there´s going to be an explanation for this but I don´t think there will be one, post inferno I could see Scott just acting more like he used to before Krakoa.

I’d like that, but I’m not expecting that will be the case.

Percy is doing this exact story for Wolvie, so I think we could ask Duggan what he thinks or what´s his reasoning behind Scott still being so relaxed with so many things going bad at the same time, inferno even had a scene of him rejecting the GC role because he can´t realistically be that and also the X-men leader at the other side of the world, So that´s a beggining but then he went to have drinks with Biship, Kwanon and Magik so, one step forward, two steps back?

I better not comment about Inferno. I don’t think I can write it in a way that won’t be a rant.

Well I am curious now, why do you think so?

I was afraid you’d ask! :P

I think Erik is more controlling, but Scott is more obsessive. That’s not to say that Eric isn’t obsessive and Scott is not controlling. They’re that too. :D

I think Erik is more preoccupied with authority and how he’s perceived than Scott. While Scott needs to know everything that is happening around him all the time (= he may not be the one fixing an important pipe in Utopia, but if someone has done that, he must know that pipe was fixed well and he needs to know if it’s something that became a vulnerability an enemy could use).

I think this difference might be because Scott knows he’s not as powerful as Mags. Mags could hold the entire island and prevent it to sink if he needed and much more. Scott can’t. So he needs to prepare for everything, which makes him very stressed.

Well… it made the real Scott very stressed. Krakoa Scott doesn’t prepare or worry about anything.

I understand completely, I would just like to be able to talk with you still on the forum.

Let’s hope X-Men is still readable and some other BS don’t enrage me too much. Because I’d like to continue to chat with you and some other friends I made here. :)

Yes I honestly think Jean and Scott will be fine in the long run and I don´t think any of their fans should miss this next stage they are going to have.

If Duggan actually writes Scott and Jean… Right now they’re ZombieJean and StepfordScott. Those characters aren’t enough for me to stomach everything else that is to come.

Well I think he mentioned he was one back in the day during an interview but then almost all writers were Cyclops fanboys at the time and he was pretty much the protagonist of his X-men title and even worked on Sinister so Scott could have a personal nemesis as a foil, so while I am not sure what aspects of Scott he enjoys, because even between fans we can have different characteristics to like about our faves, my general impression of him is that he writes a pretty sympatethic Scott who means well even if he goes to extremes sometimes.

I read some of his interviews back then and I don’t remember he said he was a fan. But I don’t really trust my memory for those things. Maybe he did. :)

I told you it was the lack of drinks :P

Attachment 114241

That´s the plan and you know, my boy is kind of paranoid so I would not put it past him to do his own stuff and one thing I loved about Inferno is that it looks like we were right about the tea and the drinks, the plot thickens :D Now I really hope he shared a different kind of tea than the one he gave to Moira.

We’re prophets! :D

That part with Moira…

Yes, one of the things more cute about them is that it´s obvious how much in love they are, it just gets out of the page.

For the good times and the bad times. Posting those here again in case you missed the previous times:





You can't create this kind of magic for a couple that doesn’t make sense (or was forced) together. Not even if you use a Jean knock-off. They've tried.

I am no big fan of Star Trek myself but I am certainly a fan of well rounded and multidimensional characters and you are right those are becoming rare in comics and series, they could do with some more complex stories.

The personal drama isn’t the only focus of the show, but the characters are written in a way that makes you care for them. Nowadays, not even when the show has one protagonist and their personal plight is at the centre of their motivations I care about them. One example: The Last Kingdom. I stopped watching that series because I actively disliked the protagonist more than I could handle.

And it’s not because he’s flawed. I like flawed characters. It’s because he’s insufferable.

Agreed and I appreciate he´s actually showing and telling that Jean is co-leader of the X-men now, I just don´t want it to come at the cost of Scott looking less of a leader that he´s always been.

Their leadership styles are completely different. There shouldn’t be any clash, so no need to diminish one of them to favour the other.

A good analogy would be Jean is like a queen and Scott is like a general. A queen that goes to battle and a general who is in the war room helping deciding the strategy for the entire army.

Together, not only as combatants themselves, but also as leaders, they should be effing unstoppable. I’m not saying that because I’m a fan: no two characters in the MU can accomplish what those two can.

Exactly, in Pietro´s case it was PAD the one who got the balance between his temper and his personality and relationship´s right, I love writers who manage this character balance, for example this is exactly the problem I have with Magneto on ToM, he looks like a caricature of himself and given the story has his name, it feels like a huge let down along with Lorna being written also as a trope and not her own person.

So yes please, give the characters all the nuance they need because this enriches the stories.

Exactly: very few types of stories can be good without good characters, but even those become better when their characters are tridimensional.

Agreed and it also helped I thought the same about Darrin as she did, I didn´t like him either.

Let’s put it like this: I didn’t hate Darrin, but I loved Endora’s despise for him. :D

Lol I just can´t think of another reason why they would stop using bubble speech, like honestly I can´t think why?

One day someone decided they were cheesy? I honestly don’t know either.

Exactly, feats are great but I just enjoy feats along with an characterization are just perfection. :p

Feats without good characterization feel like a cop out.

I am hopeful we will, at some point.

It’s been 2 years… I’m not.

I used to think this exact way until I saw images of Scott literally using Magneto´s outfit, the traditional one, for the fear itself crossover and realized how serious marvel was about linking them together, I have not been able to take that image off my mind yet and I wish I did.

Covers are supposed to be symbolic, right? Not literal. Even to this day, they’re supposed to be provocative so you buy the book. In a way, it’s a mixture between art and marketing.. Sometimes they go too far, though, and they’re downright deceiving.

I still think they would behave differently because their personalities are also different but yes, I could see this happening with Scott but I don´t know how he would behave, he probably would have been a lot more militant. This is also Magneto´s origin story, too many things happened and just got worse. I am actually curious to see a what if of how he would have been if at least Magda and Anya had lived, imo, that would have made a world of difference.

I agree. They’d behave very differently.

Exactly I don´t think we are being perjuiced symply because we call a chair "la silla" or a paper "el periódico" it´s just the way our language works and it´s alive, like if they want to make an observation, the least they could do is learn the actual rules of the language. Romance languages come from Latin, this is why all of them are related but use and circunstance allowed them to develop differently and it´s still changing.

Yep. And back to the Latinx stuff… If you want to be neutral while speaking in English, simply use the word “Latin” then. Done. Latin American people themselves don’t like the term that is supposed to refer to them!

This is cultural imperialism perpetrated on a group of peoples who have had their shared of it. It’s madness to try this BS again in 2021!!!

Agreed and I am not here for that stuff.

I don’t mind discussing it, but the problem is that when you try nowadays and you don’t agree, you’re immediately labeled a bigot. So what’s the point? *shrug*

But even if it was a science, how can you try to change a language by imposing a term that´s not even part of that language, that doesn´t make sense.

I know! It’s exasperating.

[Lucyinthesky]

IÂ’d like that, but IÂ’m not expecting that will be the case.

Lest hope it´s

I better not comment about Inferno. I don’t think I can write it in a way that won’t be a rant.

Rants can be quite interesting intakes too, if you want to talk I have not problem with rants.

I was afraid youÂ’d ask! :P

I think Erik is more controlling, but Scott is more obsessive. That’s not to say that Eric isn’t obsessive and Scott is not controlling. TheyÂ’re that too.

I think Erik is more preoccupied with authority and how heÂ’s perceived than Scott. While Scott needs to know everything that is happening around him all the time (= he may not be the one fixing an important pipe in Utopia, but if someone has done that, he must know that pipe was fixed well and he needs to know if itÂ’s something that became a vulnerability an enemy could use).

I think this difference might be because Scott knows heÂ’s not as powerful as Mags. Mags could hold the entire island and prevent it to sink if he needed and much more. Scott canÂ’t. So he needs to prepare for everything, which makes him very stressed.

WellÂ… it made the real Scott very stressed. Krakoa Scott doesnÂ’t prepare or worry about anything.

You know, I thought the same thing, in fact I believe this hability of Scott is something Magneto admires in him and that´s why he respects him so much as a leader, Magneto himself is powerful so he tends to do most of the things himself and that makes it harder for him to be a more skillful leader when it comes to coordinate other people, for example the acolytes most of the time were defeated and depended on Magneto to win the battles, because they were not used to train as team like the X-men did and Magneto had the tendency to do most of the fight himself. AoA Magneto has a little more experience in coordinating groups because the situation called for it and he actually was a lot less powerful than he used to be.

Magneto is a lone wolf and it´s hard for him to coordinate teams while Scott had for such a long time to have perfect control over his powers that he´s learned the value of coordination, control and exactitude in his own actions, Magneto cares about those things too but his powers can make him overconfident when he definitely is not that way the time he´s been depowered.

LetÂ’s hope X-Men is still readable and some other BS donÂ’t enrage me too much. Because IÂ’d like to continue to chat with you and some other friends I made here.

I would love to keep the chat with you, and you can rant to me anything time :P

If Duggan actually writes Scott and JeanÂ… Right now theyÂ’re ZombieJean and StepfordScott. Those characters arenÂ’t enough for me to stomach everything else that is to come.

I think Jean is doing a little better but yes, Scott needs to come back.

I read some of his interviews back then and I donÂ’t remember he said he was a fan. But I donÂ’t really trust my memory for those things. Maybe he did.

I don´t have the interview with me but yes, I kind of remember him talking about it but mostly I am going by his take on Scott which was actually good even if he liked to take him to darkes places of his personality, I liked how he wrote his meeting with "Jean" and that she was the one who more or less snapped him out of the thrall of the phoenix on AvX.

WeÂ’re prophets!

YES!! Look at that smile, he´s so happy, someone should definitely send him some on ToM.lol

That part with Moira

Please, don´t stop on my behald, I would very much like to discuss this scene, at this point I am just seeing Moira as a variant from another universe tbh.

For the good times and the bad times. Posting those here again in case you missed the previous times:





You can't create this kind of magic for a couple that doesn’t make sense (or was forced) together. Not even if you use a Jean knock-off. They've tried.

Those are beatiful, thank you :P

The personal drama isn’t the only focus of the show, but the characters are written in a way that makes you care for them. Nowadays, not even when the show has one protagonist and their personal plight is at the centre of their motivations I care about them. One example: The Last Kingdom. I stopped watching that series because I actively disliked the protagonist more than I could handle.

Once a teacher of literature told me if you can´t make people care about the characters you are writting about on the first pages or chapter, if you will, then you will never engage them on the story and you have failed with your narrative, so I think this is pretty true even on proffesional circles but also, not everyone likes the same thing, some people can like something other hate and viceversa, the real problem comes when nobody cares about it :P

Their leadership styles are completely different. There shouldn’t be any clash, so no need to diminish one of them to favour the other.
A good analogy would be Jean is like a queen and Scott is like a general. A queen that goes to battle and a general who is in the war room helping deciding the strategy for the entire army.Together, not only as combatants themselves, but also as leaders, they should be effing unstoppable. I’m not saying that because I’m a fan: no two characters in the MU can accomplish what those two can.

I would like to know, how would you describe Jean and Scott style? I am curious because I have not seen so much of Jean and know a little bit more about Scott.

LetÂ’s put it like this: I didnÂ’t hate Darrin, but I loved EndoraÂ’s despise for him.

I didn´t have him either but I found him a little whinning sometimes so I loved when Endore also criticized him.

One day someone decided they were cheesy? I honestly donÂ’t know either.

Whatever their issue is, I think they should rethink it, part of the charm of comics is that they allow us to see the internal thoughts of the characters and is a great narrative tool.

[Lucyinthesky]

Feats without good characterization feel like a cop out.

Exactly, I have seen Sue Storm fans complaining about it, because FF4 writers sure don´t forget to write a feat or two for Sue but they hardly if ever explore her character like they do with the rest of the four or the kids and it definitely looks like a cop out to make her powerful so they don´t explore her character.

ItÂ’s been 2 years… I’m not.

One good or bad if you want thing about comics is that they do tend to go back to their origin at some point, as a Magneto fan this sometimes can suck because this means they will repeteately try to reduce or reset his character back into being the X-men main villain, I think we have been pretty fortunate the last 20 years, so I hope marvel has changed their instance on him.

But when it comes to Scott and Jean, I think it will do them well to write them like they used to be a few years ago and now they are both alive so that would be plus and I am sure a writer would/will try to make it possible.

Covers are supposed to be symbolic, right? Not literal. Even to this day, they’re supposed to be provocative so you buy the book. In a way, itÂ’s a mixture between art and marketing.. Sometimes they go too far, though, and theyÂ’re downright deceiving.

Yes but this cover was along with a lot of interviews about Scott saying oh, gasp, he´s becoming Magneto, so I didn´t appreciate the symbology at the time :P

I agree. They’d behave very differently.

Yes beggining with their powers and later with their experiences, this gives them a completely different perspective even if they do see some things in common.

Like I actually could see a Magneto whose entire life doesn´t revolve around mutant issues because he has his family to take care of, I think even Claremont wrote him that way in a what if where he married Gabrielle Haller so in the end he became a scientist, married to her but helped Charles sometimes with his dream.

Scott I can see leadership being a huge part of his life because he was symbolically adopted by Charles and the X-men became his main mission and his family so both concepts are linked in his eyes.

Yep. And back to the Latinx stuff… If you want to be neutral while speaking in English, simply use the word “Latin” then. Done. Latin American people themselves don’t like the term that is supposed to refer to them!. This is cultural imperialism perpetrated on a group of peoples who have had their shared of it. It’s madness to try this BS again in 2021!!!

Exactly, if they want to use the term for english speaking people, Latin is good enough already but if they also want to use it for spanish speaking people, I will have a problem with it, because it´s absurd to impose a term on a group of people as part of their laguage when that term it´s not even a word used by that language. This is in part why I personally don´t like to talk about it, it makes me too angry and I can´t debate appropiately when it I get like this and I can just hear the "but your language is so inapropiate etc while I am thinking something like "You don´t know the first thing about my language person of the internet and stop impossing your views on a group you hardly know:P

I don’t mind discussing it, but the problem is that when you try nowadays and you don’t agree, you’re immediately labeled a bigot. So whatÂ’s the point? *shrug*

Well given how polarized internet is now and how popular is to victimize oneself and reduce to complete monsters or nazis people who disagree with whatever argument has the more pull, I think this sadly says more about internet not longer being such a good place to have debates than it used to be, now you either take one side or the other and that´s not conducive to have a proper debate imo. Like when people begin to use overly emotional arguments to shame the other part into agreeging with them, it automatically makes me suspicious they don´t have enoug facts and are using emotional manipulation to get their way and I just can´t agree with that actitude.

I know! It’s exasperating.

It´s, so much.

[Grinning Soul]

Rants can be quite interesting intakes too, if you want to talk I have not problem with rants.

I’ll dedicate a post for that, then. Please, remember you asked for it! :P

You know, I thought the same thing, in fact I believe this hability of Scott is something Magneto admires in him and that´s why he respects him so much as a leader, Magneto himself is powerful so he tends to do most of the things himself and that makes it harder for him to be a more skillful leader when it comes to coordinate other people, for example the acolytes most of the time were defeated and depended on Magneto to win the battles, because they were not used to train as team like the X-men did and Magneto had the tendency to do most of the fight himself. AoA Magneto has a little more experience in coordinating groups because the situation called for it and he actually was a lot less powerful than he used to be.

Magneto is a lone wolf and it´s hard for him to coordinate teams while Scott had for such a long time to have perfect control over his powers that he´s learned the value of coordination, control and exactitude in his own actions, Magneto cares about those things too but his powers can make him overconfident when he definitely is not that way the time he´s been depowered.

I think a main difference is Scott never wanted to lead anything and yet he managed to unite mutants. I think this is something Mags really admire about Scott. ‘Cause let’s face it, Mags love to sit on a regent throne and Scott would probably feel very self-conscious if he had to do it. :D

So I think for Erik it’s something he can’t help admiring: “All these people are wiling to die if he says so, and he’s not even trying to be loved or adored. He doesn’t even care about any of that. And he’s still not wearing a cape!” :P

Okay, I’m being silly. But you got the point, right?

And yes: I think Mags also admire Scott’s ability to have teams (multiple teams, even) working as a single well-oiled machine. It is super impressive indeed. I don’t think any other Marvel character, not even Cap can do that (though Cap is much more inspiring).

I would love to keep the chat with you, and you can rant to me anything time :P

Me too, Lucy. If it wasn’t for you guys I’d probably have thrown those books away already. :D

I think Jean is doing a little better but yes, Scott needs to come back.

It may be a bit less obvious, but Jean is not herself either. She doesn’t seem to care about anyone. She didn’t care about Piotr, Domino, Gaby, Gabriel, Alex… just to mention a few. Now her best friend is being challenged and under a lot of stress on daily basis and… nothing. Not even a telepathic phone call.

Scott has been a horrible leader, which makes it feel like the character is crippled.

Jean hasn’t cared about her friends, which has the exact same effect on her character.

I don´t have the interview with me but yes, I kind of remember him talking about it but mostly I am going by his take on Scott which was actually good even if he liked to take him to darkes places of his personality, I liked how he wrote his meeting with "Jean" and that she was the one who more or less snapped him out of the thrall of the phoenix on AvX.

That wasn’t him. He actually made Jean call him an idiot and ask him to tell Logan she loves the name of the new school. Which I choose to read as Jean teasing Dark Phoenix Scott to make him snap out of it, but I’m pretty sure that was not the intention. :P

I joke so I don’t cry.

YES!! Look at that smile, he´s so happy, someone should definitely send him some on ToM.lol

These are the times we live in, Lucy: we discuss under which chemical influence our favourites are or should be. :D

Again: I joke so I don’t cry.

Please, don´t stop on my behald, I would very much like to discuss this scene, at this point I am just seeing Moira as a variant from another universe tbh.

That scene might require a post of its own. But I’ll try to keep it as short as possible.

Those are beatiful, thank you :P

No problem. I’m pretty sure you’ve read those books. But this is an appreciation thread, after all. It’s about gushing over and over again. :)

Once a teacher of literature told me if you can´t make people care about the characters you are writting about on the first pages or chapter, if you will, then you will never engage them on the story and you have failed with your narrative, so I think this is pretty true even on proffesional circles but also, not everyone likes the same thing, some people can like something other hate and viceversa, the real problem comes when nobody cares about it :P

I agree. You can’t force a reader to like your character. You present them in an interesting way and then you write them and show more and more of them. Some people will relate to them, some people won’t. But a good character that was not forced down the throat of the reader will still be a good character in the end of the day: most likely, people won’t reject your character if they can’t relate to them.

In order words, focus on your character internal logic, depth and nuance. Don’t try to make them popular or edgy or relatable. Leave it for the readers to decide whether or not they like the character.

I would like to know, how would you describe Jean and Scott style? I am curious because I have not seen so much of Jean and know a little bit more about Scott.

Another subject that is difficult to put in words, but let’s try.

Let me establish two points before we get into it: Jean is a very intelligent woman (recently established again by the HE himself) who can strategize. Scott is a very intelligent man who can and does think of the bigger picture.

I hope we’re clear on that.

The thing is that human intelligence nowadays is seen as more than the IQ. It’s the ability to process different kinds of data, extrapolate possible outcomes and draw conclusions. They’re equally intelligent but the focus of their intelligence is different.

Scott excels in planing and preparing and battle strategy. He excels in making quick decisions under enormous pressure.

Jean excels in seeing hidden possibilities in cooperating and trying for unconventional solutions that requires some persuasion. In the last issue of X-Men, for instance, she managed to get information from an enemy they had just fought against. In Red, she opted to defeat Cassandra by allowing her to see things differently and she did so with the help of the Avengers.

Which takes me to another part of their leadership.

Scott is reliable and people trust him. Every time things get dangerous, it’s to him they run. His authority come from his competence.

Jean is inspiring and people love her. Every time things get dark, they turn to her light. Her authority comes from her personality.

Combine those characteristics of excellence in planing, training and preparing and thinking outside the box and amassing cooperation, with the kind of trust and loyalty their followers offer them, and you get an unstoppable force.

I didn´t have him either but I found him a little whinning sometimes so I loved when Endore also criticized him.

From a mother’s point of view, Endora wasn’t wrong to see him that way. She didn’t have to express it so freely of course, but that was the fun of it. :D

Whatever their issue is, I think they should rethink it, part of the charm of comics is that they allow us to see the internal thoughts of the characters and is a great narrative tool.

Preaching to the choir, dear. I love the thought bubbles so much, I’d adopt a bunch of the abandoned ones and give them a loving home if I could! :D

[Grinning Soul]

Exactly, I have seen Sue Storm fans complaining about it, because FF4 writers sure don´t forget to write a feat or two for Sue but they hardly if ever explore her character like they do with the rest of the four or the kids and it definitely looks like a cop out to make her powerful so they don´t explore her character.

In a smaller scale, it’s what’s happening with Jean. Her fans just don't see it yet, I guess? Just think about how most of them seems to like her portrayal in X-Force. *shrug*

One good or bad if you want thing about comics is that they do tend to go back to their origin at some point, as a Magneto fan this sometimes can suck because this means they will repeteately try to reduce or reset his character back into being the X-men main villain, I think we have been pretty fortunate the last 20 years, so I hope marvel has changed their instance on him.

But when it comes to Scott and Jean, I think it will do them well to write them like they used to be a few years ago and now they are both alive so that would be plus and I am sure a writer would/will try to make it possible.

I see your point. But I think I’ve given all I had to give for this Krakoa era. They had more than enough time and books to make me care and they failed.

I’ll probably keep reading just X-Men, if the other stuff around it don’t irritate me too much. But, at this point, it will be just to enjoy both characters being alive and somewhat together while it lasts.

Yes but this cover was along with a lot of interviews about Scott saying oh, gasp, he´s becoming Magneto, so I didn´t appreciate the symbology at the time :P

I know. It was one I’d put in the category of provocative and downright deceiving.

Yes beggining with their powers and later with their experiences, this gives them a completely different perspective even if they do see some things in common.

Like I actually could see a Magneto whose entire life doesn´t revolve around mutant issues because he has his family to take care of, I think even Claremont wrote him that way in a what if where he married Gabrielle Haller so in the end he became a scientist, married to her but helped Charles sometimes with his dream.

Scott I can see leadership being a huge part of his life because he was symbolically adopted by Charles and the X-men became his main mission and his family so both concepts are linked in his eyes.

Scott and Jean talk about it in two instances that I remember (there were probably more): they know they’re both X-Men and that’s what they’ll always be.

Before The Twelve, once they were recovered, they stayed in Alaska to start their family, but I think it was like a sabbatical. They were allowing themselves a period to dedicate to each other and the family they hoped to finally build together, but I don’t think they imagined it could really become their lives.

I’ve recently posted those, but here they are again:



I’m not sure if everything Erik lived after that time in Israel hasn’t changed him, though. I think he got a taste for being a ruler and I don't know if he could let that go of that in the long term (he bent the knee to Scott, but how long would that really last? We don’t know).

Exactly, if they want to use the term for english speaking people, Latin is good enough already but if they also want to use it for spanish speaking people, I will have a problem with it, because it´s absurd to impose a term on a group of people as part of their laguage when that term it´s not even a word used by that language. This is in part why I personally don´t like to talk about it, it makes me too angry and I can´t debate appropiately when it I get like this and I can just hear the "but your language is so inapropiate etc while I am thinking something like "You don´t know the first thing about my language person of the internet and stop impossing your views on a group you hardly know:P

Use a buzz word: “this is cultural imperialism”. It’s all they understand and it comes with the bonus of being the truth.

Look, use the English word for the collective and let the individual choose how they want to refer to themselves. I have nothing against non-binary people referring to themselves as Latine or Latinx if they want. Just don’t impose it on the majority of people who would refer to themselves as Latina or Latino.

Again: if chairs can have gender in Romance languages, why does it even matter???

When you're referring to the collective in said Romance languages, the adjective will get a gender depending on the noun anyway. Latin people will get the gender of the word "people". Latin population will get the gender of the word "population". Nothing changes. Just stop borrowing "Latino" and "Latina" when speaking in English. Just use the English word "Latin" and let people refer to the individuals in whatever way they prefer.

Well given how polarized internet is now and how popular is to victimize oneself and reduce to complete monsters or nazis people who disagree with whatever argument has the more pull, I think this sadly says more about internet not longer being such a good place to have debates than it used to be, now you either take one side or the other and that´s not conducive to have a proper debate imo. Like when people begin to use overly emotional arguments to shame the other part into agreeging with them, it automatically makes me suspicious they don´t have enoug facts and are using emotional manipulation to get their way and I just can´t agree with that actitude.

That’s exactly how I feel: “look, if you want me to agree with you, have good arguments or, at least, arguments that aren't so general that can apply to anything”.

I watched an interview with a transgender woman who said a friend of hers, who is also a transgender woman, was banned from Twitter because she wrote that she was not a biological woman. Wrap your head around that: she expressed an opinion about *herself* and she got banned for that.

When things get this bad, how can people have any discussion?

[Grinning Soul]

Inferno #1, scene-by-scene rant - part 1

Note: discussions are welcome, but if you loved the issue and my opinion offends your feelings please, don’t wast time replying to me ‘cause I won’t waste mine replying to you. I’m writing this to my friends because I trust we can disagree and have fun together. If you’re not in this mood, please, save both of our times by just not reading this. It’s a rant. You know it’s a rant. Just skip it, please.

Note 2: I’m not actually following the review thread, so if someone said something similar, apologies, please claim the credit even though I didn’t read what you wrote. It’s the case of two great minds, I guess. :P


Scene 1: resurrection

We open with 2 pages that mirror the first 2 of HoX/PoX. Even the art reflects that, with the layout of the panels being exactly the same.

I could make a smart-ass comment here, but I'll skip it.

I'll just comment on how this scene is gratuitous. I already know wtf those people getting out of those gooey cocoons mean. So now I know that Charles (and maybe Erik) will die during Inferno and it will definitely not come as a surprise. I mean it wouldn't be shocking anyway, since he's being killed twice in this Krakoa era. What's a third, am I right?

Jean better get on with the program now. Someone has died more times than she did. And Red can't have that! :P

Damn... that was a smart-ass comment. Ooooh, this rant will be good! :P

Data page 1: Threat Analysis: Orchis

He hear about Nodes (non-thinking adaptive sentinel bases) in territories that belong to allies of Orchis. Now, I’m an old woman and I might be unfair here due to a senior moment, but I think it’s the first time we’re seeing it, right? If so, not a good thing, considering some fans refuse to read data pages and I can’t blame them.

But more than the existence of them, we also get to learn the mutants finally considered that the Nodes themselves might just be a trap, meaning something that is intended to showcase mutants being aggressive towards the countries who aren’t in a treaty with them.

I mean, really? Which genius thought of this possibility first? Can you, please, *tell* me on a data page, please? :D

Anyway, that is used to justified why mutants fell back to just observing and investigating Orchis.



I guess having an army of telepaths - one of them an actual ninja - doesn’t allow them to do anything else other than watching Orchis gather more and more influence on Earth.

Lastly, they talk about how destroying the Forge and Nimrod is the highest priority. All right, so I guess it means I’ll see all mutants launching an attacking, right? Like they did in XoS, but with the help of the Arakko mutants too, right?

Right?

Data page 2: Orchis map

The only thing important here: they have a telepathic buoy system, which is described as a telepathic minefield and a bunch of other defenses.

Which makes me ask myself: is Magik around? Did she die and something happened to her back-up? Is she stuck in Limbo? What about Lila Cheney?

Moving on. Let’s get to the actual story, shall we?

Data page 3: Orchis events
No, we shan’t. Because there’s yet *another* data page and this one is a pearl.

So omega-level Magneto dies trying to push the Forge to the sun because of is Dyson engines. Krakoan mutants? Shrug, call it a bad plan and don’t think of bringing Exodus an omega-level telekinetic to help, because, you know we shouldn’t remind the readers there is an omega-level telekinetic who could probably desintegrate the whole base.

It’s the 6th page, the story hasn’t even started yet, and my brain already hurts.

Anyway, there is a bunch of enigmatic entries of the X-Force.

. Domino escape - mission failure
. Mystique gateway. Vaccum - mission failure (why is this filed under “X-Force”?)
. 6x: Insertion/breach/attack - result unknown (how can they not know?)
. Orchis Hack. Emergency message from Kid Omega (I guess someone from X-Force planed his? Why didn’t they try a circuit with Kid Omega, Sage, Trinary, Wiz Kid, one telepath connecting their minds and maybe Highjack?).

Then, Magneto tried again with a mutant circuit that collapsed after 6 hours, unable to to overcome that engine. Jesus, what engine is that? I’m assuming Mags used Exodus, right? Right?

Now…



Now, very important to note: this time Magneto placed himself on the other side of the Sun, in relation to the Forge, so he could use the star’s gravity. Because, obviously, if he’s at the same side as the Forge, the Sun actually pushes the station away from it.



Other than that, they also used assassins contracted through an Avalon intermediary and the Brood.

Can we start the actual story now?

Scene 2: Attack on Orchis

Quentin, Domino and Logan are attacking the Forge again. They’re intercept by Nimrod and we get to see how he deals with them with no problem.

Orchis evil-guy-I-forgot-the-name tells us it’s the 16th attempt of attacking them and he talks to evil-widow-I-forgot-the-name about the fact that when the Krakoans attack themselves it’s always the same mutants and they don’t seem to learn anything new, while Orchis is getting better at dealing with them, so it’s like they don’t remember.

Karima corrects her by saying: “No. Not entirely. Someone remembers… It’s why they keep coming”, which is incidentally what is written in the quote page before scene 1. I’d argue that this makes no sense as a conclusion, but I won’t waste my time here.

Instead, I’d prefer to know who remembers. I’m hoping Hickman isn’t trying to be smart here and refer to Moira, because it still makes no sense. But if you ask me if I’m going to expect an answer to this? Nope. I won’t. I’m expecting it will be yet another nonsensical stuff that was said just to be cool.

Scene 3:: Moira’s 3rd life flashback

I kid you not: 6 pages establishing the bad blood between Moira and Irene. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for getting new readers up to speed, but that’s the writer who said he wouldn’t have “real estate” to write Rogue in a story that involves both her “mothers”.

I’ll spare you guys the comments about Irene’s speech and the whole sanctimonious stuff about the mutant cure. I’ll also spare any comments about how Moira changed sides just ‘cause she told her so. Nothing of that is new and by now you probably know how I feel about both. But feel free to comment on it if you want.

Then it cuts to Moira’s 10th life. She looks at an overgrown facility and holds a book that is somewhat burned where it reads “Project: Cure” and her name is listed together with 4 other people - probably the scientists who worked with her in the 3rd life - don’t ask me how she has this book.

Anyway, it’s night time now and the scene cuts to Moira walking in a street in a place where the language is French. And then she’s walking into an apartment.

Scene 4:: Back to the baddies. All of them.

Apparently AIM and SHIELD is working with Orchis in monitoring the appearances of Krakoan gateways, near the “Node” in Terra Verde.

They get super puzzled by a “conflicting gateway signature”. Dr. Smyth discusses with their colleague about what to do (an entire page of it), they decide to call the ladies of Hordeculture and 2 other pages are spent with the old gals insisting the knowledge they sold was sound only to end up with them solving the mystery with one look at the data: the “clever” mutants planted two gates in the building, in the same location, on different floors.

Oh, God… I think the description is enough for a rant, isn’t it? Is it not? Then here it goes: I guess Orchis can have the technology to put a base orbiting the sun with an engine that can resist any force applied to it, plus several space defences, but cameras inside their Nodes is too advanced.

Anyway, for some reason that makes the ape doctors go bunkers and decide that the Paris site became priority. I’ll just… just… *shrug*

[Grinning Soul]

Inferno #1, scene-by-scene rant - part 2

Scene 5:: Moira’s No-Place

Wearing the same clothes she was wearing in the previous scene, Moira is walking in her No-Place of Krakoa where Charles and Erik are waiting for her.

Get ready, because this is going to become even more bat-sh** crazy.

First thing we learn is that Moira thinks both men don’t think her perspective is important when it comes to defeating Orchis. Uh… WHAT????

Somehow, Charles argues that even though they aren’t listening to the woman with actual knowledge of what happens in this conflict, Nimrod might be an inevitability. Which tells me two things: 1. Charles would be horrible at debate club. 2. Charles and Erik are horrible at killing Nimrod.

Seriously… after those laughable attempts were made, I was kinda hoping it would be revealed that failing was part of the plan, actually. That they were actually trying to speed up the rise of Nimrod so they could fight it while Orchis was still weaker.

Nope. Those were *genuine* attempts. Including that botched solo Mystique mission.

After that, I don’t know where I found energy to keep reading, but I did…

So both Erik and Charles are jerks and ask her if in all her lives they ever attempted to befriend Orchis instead. She tells them there’re only two things they should worry about: Nimrod and Destiny. And then we find out that Moira has been to Muir Island and they knew that because no, they’re not following her, they implanted her with a “techno-organic transmission technology” that allows them to know when and which gates she’s using.

OMG!

Girl, run! These two gas-lighting older men are putting stuff in your tea and aware of where you go at all times. They’re up to no good. Kill yourself and start over *FAR* away from both of them!

Anyway, they’re desperate and Moira starts making her demands: it starts with getting rid of the possibility to resurrect Irene and getting Raven out of a position of power. Which makes me go… now you guys are going to go about that? Even if you didn’t want to delete Irene, why is Mystique even in QC to begin with?

But, you know, water under the bridge. Let’s see how those geniuses will go about it. Moira suggests that since there are 2 positions open, they could sell the QC shuffle as a seasonal change, to which Mags reply: “Erased? That’s what you want?” and I honestly don’t know here if the letterer ate a speech balloon or Hickman didn’t revise the text with the art, because its feels super out of order.

Another two pages are spent on art, with Magneto arriving in Island M, where one of the Cerebro cradles is located, while we read some narration boxes where Moira says they can’t control the Five, but they can control the back-ups.

And then another page is spent, showing Charles getting Destiny’s DNA from Sinister, as she explains in more narration boxes that that is also needed. On the last panel, there are some containers where I guess it reads SN3. But I never really bothered with Krakoan (and I feel little dirty for even looking at its alphabet to write this), so feel free to correct me.

And finally we get yet another page in which Moira shows she fears and hates Destiny, in case we hadn’t notice it yet.

Data page 4: Medical report

Yep. Because 3 is not too many!

We get a medical report of Black Tom Cassidy, by Cecilia Reyes. Physically he’s better and stronger than he’s ever been, but psychologically things get trickier: all kinds of tests, including telepathic ones, points out to perfect mental health, but he’s suffering from an increasing number of debilitating psychoses (though he actually likes those weird sensations he gets). They think it’s okay to keep him on duty, though, they’ll just be observing him. Yet another instance of mutant wisdom.

And I’m suppose to believe they are superior. Right.

Anyway, this might have to do with Warlock. But we’ll get there.

Scene 6:: Doug’s marital status

Doug wakes up, gets dressed, drink something and kisses Bei goodbye. She opens her eyes in a weird “I’m-a-villain” way. We learn that Doug leaves Warlock on Krakoan leaves (no pun intended) so he can have some privacy with his wife, I guess. Then he picks his friend up in the morning.

They chat a bit and Warlock is looking more branch-y, like a thinner, techno Groot (which is why I think Krakoa is infecting him and vice-versa).

Anyway, he tells Doug he thinks Bei is scary. Doug replies she’s a little terrifying but he loves her very much. At this point, Krakoa (really, the island) says something and he replies: “Hey, I love you too big guy. And don’t you forget it”.

Considering the last issue of Wolverine… I don’t know what to think, but it’s possible Scott and Jean are being out-kinked in the weird-marriage department as well.

Scene 7:: The captains are bullies and buffoons

Speaking of our couple, here comes Scott’s cameo.

Scott goes on a thank-God-it’s-at-least-short incoherent babbling about how he’s older and a victory isn’t a defeat regardless of common sense and how he can’t be an X-Men and remain the chief-protector of their great mutant experiment…

Let me puke a little. Be right back.

Anyway, Exodus is delightful as always, but asks an important question: why don’t you just quit if you’re heart isn’t in it? And Mr. Summers, smiling as always, says anyone can tests his convictions because he was tested in wars and he’s still standing.

(Moves the visor a bit so I can whisper in his ear: that’s not much of a merit when you’ve been resurrected, my dear, and all of them can be resurrected too).

Xavier asks if Scott thinks it’s really the right time to do it, and Mr. Smiley says it’s perfect, doesn’t offer a reason but assures he’ll still be a Captain, but he can’t me more than that.

Whenever anyone can explain what that second C does, please, feel free. So, he’s out in the world now because he’s an X-Man, so he can’t be the CC. But he can be a C. ‘Cause logic. But we shouldn't be too hard on him, who could have seen it would be difficult to be both an X-Man and the CC when he refused the QC seat and said they were re-forming the X-Men?

What is wrong with his visor?

Anyway, cool, they want Bishop to be the CC, let him have fun with it. It never meant anything for Scott’s character anyway. Crown the new CC and let’s move on, please?

Nope!

Emma has a problem with it *after* Ororo crowns the new CC, because they didn’t ask if the Council was okay with it. And Kwannon is already showing her katana and Magic informs the White Queen katana-telepath will be taking Gorgon’s position, then asks if she has a problem with that too.

Erik makes an approving face-saving comment about how the captains are wolves and Kurt - bless his heart - tries to make things civil again and congratulates Bishop.

And at this point, I’m thinking: is that it, then? But no… it’s not.

Because this is Krakoa and everyone is so happy, we lose another whole page with the Captains discussing their “traditions” and how they’re going to get drunk in Madrippor, with the explicit purpose of picking up a fight, as they walk towards the sun.

Ladies and gentlemen: the defenders of Krakoa.

I wish I was kidding.




Scene 8:: The Quiet Council and the “oh, the twist! The twist!” I suddenly forgot how bad this issue was… (Nope, I didn’t)

It’s the same day and Xavier uses the previous scene as an excuse to talk about changing things. Basically, he’s saying: “well, think about what we built and if you’re willing to let go of your seat and go enjoy Krakoa and be happy, maybe you should do that.”

Kurt admits he’s confused and he asks if Charles is requesting names to join the council or volunteers to step down.

Erik replies that they do need people and there’s a way to call a vote for that. But he’s saying that the responsibilities with the council can be consuming and he considered retiring himself. And Charles adds that it is not urgent and they can think about it, but they’ll be talking to all the members and they should talk to each other about it too, because maybe changes will be good for them.

At this point, Mystique tells him that he knows perfectly well when he has a good idea. Charles is stupid enough to tell her he’s happy she thinks so, but she interrupts him and tells him that she has a mutant she wants the Council to consider for joining them. And guess who that is? Destiny. At least, it appears to be.

Oh, yeah, and she walks towards the Council for the reveal (which takes two pages), we read the “There will be an island…” speech again.

And that’s the end, my friends. I don’t know how smart Moira is supposed to be in this life, but Erik is supposed to be intelligent and Xavier is supposed to be brilliant. Even if Destiny hadn’t appeared, how on Earth do they really think that stupid plan would work? The only person who could have been persuaded to give up on his seat would be Kurt (and maybe Kitty). All the others are power-hungry beasts.

Oh, well.. this has been long and draining and I’m tired of dealing with this stupidity. So I’ll leave it at it.

[Lucyinthesky]

I’ll dedicate a post for that, then. Please, remember you asked for it! :P

I did indeed. :P

]I think a main difference is Scott never wanted to lead anything and yet he managed to unite mutants. I think this is something Mags really admire about Scott. ‘Cause let’s face it, Mags love to sit on a regent throne and Scott would probably feel very self-conscious if he had to do it.

So I think for Erik it’s something he can’t help admiring: “All these people are wiling to die if he says so, and he’s not even trying to be loved or adored. He doesn’t even care about any of that. And he’s still not wearing a cape!” :P

Okay, I’m being silly. But you got the point, right?

Yes but I think this is a little more complicated than that, I remember those were the reasons why Fraction wrote that scene of Magneto being on his knees in front of Scott and how humble was Scott about it but in they eyes of a Magneto fan, this was scene was like, you know, this is not the first time he agress someone else should be the leader, he was just less dramatic about it. :P and also Magneto got most of mutant population of Genosha together, so losing it the way he did was still heavy on his mind and a big part of his regret.

Magneto enjoys having authority, this is a fact but this is not more important as what he´s able to do with that authority, his objective first was for mutants to rule instead of humans because humans would inevitabily try to abuse their authority over mutants, this is how Magneto sees authority, not by itself or power itself but what you can do with it.

Even on the silver age, when he was not able to get this authority by his own force, he went to Dr Doom, a human that he expected could understand what he wanted to do, it´s a fun goofy story about Doom forcing Mags to fight him for the supervillain team up series, but it does tell a little about Magneto´s methods and relation to authority and later on the first Secret Wars we have a scene of Doom ofering Erik all he wanted so Magneto would join him but he didn´t tempt him with power, authority or being adored by people, he temped him with the idea that mutants would never be abused under his rule and he almost agreed until Charles snapped him out of it.

Later when Claremont began to add nuance to the character, Storm and him had this same discussion over power and authority, because Storm understood something Charles had a really hard time understanding, that Magneto genuinely wanted to make the world a better place, he had the wrong methods because of his might makes right way of thinking but his heart was in the right place and actually she told him this, because she also agreed that is was certainly an attractive temptation, to force all those goverments that use so much money on military armament to actually use it to help their populations instead, both Ororo and Erik(mostly Max) understood this on a deep level but there comes the great power, great responsiblity conundrum, just because they can doesn´t mean they should or that it´s doubtful this will have an actual, long lasting effect on people, while for Charles it was more a matter like sure he does have points, but he must be stopped, which I am like Ok but you can stop more people by understanding their reasons than by violent confrontation or both if you like, which was what Ororo did here.

And this background explains later why Storm and Magneto could work together well with the X-men and why Magneto respected Storm´s authority over the team and even himself while he took care of the new mutants.

So yes, this is how I see his relationship with Authority, it´s not the power or the position or being adored what matters to him most but what he can do with it and if push comes to shove, if there´s someone who can do a better job in something he agrees, he will respect their authority, be it Doom, Charles, Ororo or Scott because the end is good and he will sacrifice anything for it(which is not always a good thing, but that´s another discussion), including his pride.







He certainly is Charles friend and admires his qualities and would like to share his dream but he can´t, it´s Storm the friend he understands better and can bassically tell her anything, which he can´t always do with Charles, because they are on direct competence, for them it´s a mtter of you submit to my dream or I submit to your dream, which will never happen, or if it´s happens is because one of them has been broken, like Charles was after God loves man kills story or Magneto post Genosha massacre. While with Storm it was more a matter of "lets work together and make the best of it" so he´s more able to agree with her than Xavier. This contrast and his complex view of authority of the character is something most fans don´t get about him because it´s quite subtle but still there.

And yes: I think Mags also admire Scott’s ability to have teams (multiple teams, even) working as a single well-oiled machine. It is super impressive indeed. I don’t think any other Marvel character, not even Cap can do that (though Cap is much more inspiring).

Yes Cap is much more inspiring, I can see Scott being inspirational by his example, not by his words, his fellow X-men often feel inspired by his discipline and focus, I remember once how Gambit was asking Beast why Scott was not more worried about Jean being hurt and why he wanted to focus more on her telling them what happened and Hank told him Scott was the more worried of all of them about Jean and her well being but that he hold himself together because if they learned what happened they could help Jean but also stop whoever did this to her and so help other people.

Magneto can also be very inspirational but I get the feeling his follwers mostly admire his strenght and the life he had to overcome to get to this point. Like even an assasain send to kill him off stopped himself from doing so because he respected someone so focused on making life better for an often forgotten group of people, to the point of giving up his own humanity. I think it´s a different kind of inspiaration from all three of them.

I also don´t think Magneto admires people being willing to die for Scott or him, imo, that´s at the center of his trauma, Cortez actually manipulated him with this by having mutants die around him, he doesn´t want to see people he cares about dying around him again, literally or figuratively. So no, I think he mostly admires Scott´s hability to be an excellent general and also a good person, which is also why he took so much time trying to talk to Scott before calling the cavaliery during AvX when he knew Scott was being possesed by Phoenix and I loved their interaction here, we was like Scott you are acting like me, Scott listen, etc... I liked the dynamic they had on this era, it was very human and nuanced.

Me too, Lucy. If it wasn’t for you guys I’d probably have thrown those books away already.

Happy to be of help :P

[Lucyinthesky]

It may be a bit less obvious, but Jean is not herself either. She doesn’t seem to care about anyone. She didn’t care about Piotr, Domino, Gaby, Gabriel, Alex… just to mention a few. Now her best friend is being challenged and under a lot of stress on daily basis and… nothing. Not even a telepathic phone call.

Scott has been a horrible leader, which makes it feel like the character is crippled.

Jean hasn’t cared about her friends, which has the exact same effect on her character.

Her friends or her family, I agree, we need to see more of her old self. When Peter came back so traumatized I wondered why didn´t anyone care to talk with him besides Domino where you have Jean, Storm, Cyclops or Wolvie being long time friends with him.

But imo, I think her actitude and Scott´s comes down to the main flaw of this era, that the characters and their personalities are being forced to suit the plot, instead of the plot growing out of the characterization and this is definitely hurting the characters and the verosimilitude of the story. I will post something more later.

That wasn’t him. He actually made Jean call him an idiot and ask him to tell Logan she loves the name of the new school. Which I choose to read as Jean teasing Dark Phoenix Scott to make him snap out of it, but I’m pretty sure that was not the intention. :P
I joke so I don’t cry.

I actually took this the same way, her snapping Scott out of Dark Phoenix because nothing else would have worked with him at that point and just after he did a whole monologue about sharing the dark phoenix experience with Jean, while Jean is all about, stop reminiscing and start acting, idiot :P I call it tough love and it´s quite a sigh to see.

These are the times we live in, Lucy: we discuss under which chemical influence our favourites are or should be.
Again: I joke so I don’t cry.

I can cry and laugh as well but the good news is that those moments will also pass also I am having too much fun with my headcanon to let it go yet, I love a happy Erik no matter the source, it´s so rare that I am starving for it. Look a what marvel has done to me Soul.

I agree. You can’t force a reader to like your character. You present them in an interesting way and then you write them and show more and more of them. Some people will relate to them, some people won’t. But a good character that was not forced down the throat of the reader will still be a good character in the end of the day: most likely, people won’t reject your character if they can’t relate to them.In order words, focus on your character internal logic, depth and nuance. Don’t try to make them popular or edgy or relatable. Leave it for the readers to decide whether or not they like the character.

Exactly this is why marvel always trying to force a character with edginees it doesn´t have their desired result, because if that edginess was the result of them losing their internal logic and character then the reader will see it and reject it as false. They may make new readers who like that version of the character but the older ones will see that´s not who the character used to be and leave most probably.

Another subject that is difficult to put in words, but let’s try.
Let me establish two points before we get into it: Jean is a very intelligent woman (recently established again by the HE himself) who can strategize. Scott is a very intelligent man who can and does think of the bigger picture.
I hope we’re clear on that.
The thing is that human intelligence nowadays is seen as more than the IQ. It’s the ability to process different kinds of data, extrapolate possible outcomes and draw conclusions. They’re equally intelligent but the focus of their intelligence is different.
Scott excels in planing and preparing and battle strategy. He excels in making quick decisions under enormous pressure.
Jean excels in seeing hidden possibilities in cooperating and trying for unconventional solutions that requires some persuasion. In the last issue of X-Men, for instance, she managed to get information from an enemy they had just fought against. In Red, she opted to defeat Cassandra by allowing her to see things differently and she did so with the help of the Avengers.
Which takes me to another part of their leadership.
Scott is reliable and people trust him. Every time things get dangerous, it’s to him they run. His authority come from his competence.
Jean is inspiring and people love her. Every time things get dark, they turn to her light. Her authority comes from her personality.
Combine those characteristics of excellence in planing, training and preparing and thinking outside the box and amassing cooperation, with the kind of trust and loyalty their followers offer them, and you get an unstoppable force.

Thank you and yes I think I see it, mostly in the adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, I liked how they dealt with having no powers, defending and raising Nathan while also dealing with Apocalypse´s forces and I can see all that.

From a mother’s point of view, Endora wasn’t wrong to see him that way. She didn’t have to express it so freely of course, but that was the fun of it.

Yes and also, she´s her Mom so she probably could not get why her daughter liked the guy in the first place and was hopeful she could convince her to leave him. A completely shameless homewrecker lol.

Preaching to the choir, dear. I love the thought bubbles so much, I’d adopt a bunch of the abandoned ones and give them a loving home if I could!

That sounds awesome, the Soul home for abandoned bubble thoughts.

[Lucyinthesky]

In a smaller scale, itÂ’s whatÂ’s happening with Jean. Her fans just don't see it yet, I guess? Just think about how most of them seems to like her portrayal in X-Force. *shrug*

I think they enjoy having Jean back and being a badass, nothing wrong with that, I agree her characterization could be a lot better, especially when it comes to her friendships and relationships but I don´t think she´s quite in such a bad situation as Sue has been for years imo.

I see your point. But I think IÂ’ve given all I had to give for this Krakoa era. They had more than enough time and books to make me care and they failed.
IÂ’ll probably keep reading just X-Men, if the other stuff around it donÂ’t irritate me too much. But, at this point, it will be just to enjoy both characters being alive and somewhat together while it lasts.

I believe that´s fine, I used to be very excited for Marauders and Excalibur and even Way of X but I didn´t like the direction those books took so I stopped seeing them and honestly it´s been better that way, as a fan and a long time reader, is perfectly reasonable to talk with your wallet as well.

Scott and Jean talk about it in two instances that I remember (there were probably more): they know theyÂ’re both X-Men and thatÂ’s what theyÂ’ll always be.
Before The Twelve, once they were recovered, they stayed in Alaska to start their family, but I think it was like a sabbatical. They were allowing themselves a period to dedicate to each other and the family they hoped to finally build together, but I donÂ’t think they imagined it could really become their lives.
IÂ’ve recently posted those, but here they are again:

I think Jean and Scott will always care about family and the world and family for them is each other and their kids but also the X-men so while they may at points see the X-men a mission they can leave in favor of taking care of themselves and their own, the X-men are their family too, their brothers and sisters and friends so they will always come back to them, one way or another, they are linked together, they can be heros and fight for the world with the X-men or solo but they are not just a team, they are a family.

IÂ’m not sure if everything Erik lived after that time in Israel hasnÂ’t changed him, though. I think he got a taste for being a ruler and I don't know if he could let that go of that in the long term (he bent the knee to Scott, but how long would that really last? We donÂ’t know).

Erik was not "Magneto" at that point, that would happen until after trying the whole spy bussines and finding out about operation paper clip, it was until then when he truly lost it when it came to human goverments and institutions and developed the idea of taking over them instead and also his powers growing made him a lot more unestable.

Having a family would not make him any less mad at goverment institutions but would give him something to worry about as well and hence make him rethink his methods and looking for a situation in which his family and mutants and even the world can be better so he will compromise more, and less use of his powers also means less unstability on his way of thinking. So this is bassically him on a more mentally stable place and more open to see other povs. He´s come to this point on Krakoa and before that Utopia and Genosha pre-HoM but the journey which was a terrible time for the world and him could have been avoided.

Use a buzz word: “this is cultural imperialism”. It’s all they understand and it comes with the bonus of being the truth.
Look, use the English word for the collective and let the individual choose how they want to refer to themselves. I have nothing against non-binary people referring to themselves as Latine or Latinx if they want. Just donÂ’t impose it on the majority of people who would refer to themselves as Latina or Latino.
Again: if chairs can have gender in Romance languages, why does it even matter???
When you're referring to the collective in said Romance languages, the adjective will get a gender depending on the noun anyway. Latin people will get the gender of the word "people". Latin population will get the gender of the word "population". Nothing changes. Just stop borrowing "Latino" and "Latina" when speaking in English. Just use the English word "Latin" and let people refer to the individuals in whatever way they prefer.

My point is, don´t try to impose a term to refer to a people you are not part to, people you are unwilling to understand or know and yet are already judging, let their language be their bussines and stop making it your bussines, especially when you can´t even do the basic civil thing of understanding their worldview, history and culture. Thank you and move on. Yes it´s imperialism at the cultural level even but I am quite sure most are not even aware this is what they are doing , yes we are angry over it but more annoyed at it and we also have a lot more important stuff to sort out so we will not give this version of the language police the attention they seek by actually taking them seriously, sometimes, thanks but not thanks is enough. When you have a story in which your country had to fight to the death while being invaded constantly by foreing armies thinking they had the right to destroy you and take over your country by this same imperialist way of thinking, people making out of nowhere a cute word and then blaming and shaming us for not using it as a politically correct definition of ourselves because they know better thant us, is such a minor thing honestly. If I was on a clown mode I would make a comment of how everything on this era is being degraded, even imperialism is not what it used to be. :P

That’s exactly how I feel: “look, if you want me to agree with you, have good arguments or, at least, arguments that aren't so general that can apply to anything”. I watched an interview with a transgender woman who said a friend of hers, who is also a transgender woman, was banned from Twitter because she wrote that she was not a biological woman. Wrap your head around that: she expressed an opinion about *herself* and she got banned for that.
When things get this bad, how can people have any discussion?

I think we are getting to a stage when the absurd is the norm and rationality is madness. I hope I am wrong imo.

False generalization is indeed a problem and yes social networks are becoming quite a big problem when it comes to personal security of the users and also big source of censure of all types, i´s also why I dislike greatly the use of cancel culture because this is actually helping social networks imposse even more censure with the excuse, well this person obviously is wrong, evil and a monster and we will show them how much we despise them but they don´t notice that they can´t control this same cancel culture for going agaisnt them if they as much get on someone, with enough pull, bad side. This is virtual mobs trying to "kill" others with insults and it´s just wrong imo.

Yes you can raise awarness towards social problems, yes you should do it sometimes, it´s good and fair when the instituations in charge are not doing enough or are not able to do it but this is also a signal of a problem that needs to be addressed at the instituational level, not by a virtual mob that more often than not, can be often used as a censure tool instead of an awarness instrument. those are my two cents.

[Lucyinthesky]

Inferno #1, scene-by-scene rant - part 1
Note: discussions are welcome, but if you loved the issue and my opinion offends your feelings please, don’t wast time replying to me ‘cause I won’t waste mine replying to you. I’m writing this to my friends because I trust we can disagree and have fun together. If you’re not in this mood, please, save both of our times by just not reading this. It’s a rant. You know it’s a rant. Just skip it, please.

Note 2: IÂ’m not actually following the review thread, so if someone said something similar, apologies, please claim the credit even though I didnÂ’t read what you wrote. ItÂ’s the case of two great minds, I guess. :P



Scene 1: resurrection

We open with 2 pages that mirror the first 2 of HoX/PoX. Even the art reflects that, with the layout of the panels being exactly the same.

I could make a smart-ass comment here, but I'll skip it.

I'll just comment on how this scene is gratuitous. I already know wtf those people getting out of those gooey cocoons mean. So now I know that Charles (and maybe Erik) will die during Inferno and it will definitely not come as a surprise. I mean it wouldn't be shocking anyway, since he's being killed twice in this Krakoa era. What's a third, am I right?

I am expecting them to die in the end like the X-men did on HoX and yes, my guess is that was definitely Erik with Charles, there´s art of them going for Orchis.

Jean better get on with the program now. Someone has died more times than she did. And Red can't have that! :P

Damn... that was a smart-ass comment. Ooooh, this rant will be good! :P

All of Krakoa will die more times than her, this is what happens when you don´t put attention Jean :P

Data page 1: Threat Analysis: Orchis

He hear about Nodes (non-thinking adaptive sentinel bases) in territories that belong to allies of Orchis. Now, IÂ’m an old woman and I might be unfair here due to a senior moment, but I think itÂ’s the first time weÂ’re seeing it, right? If so, not a good thing, considering some fans refuse to read data pages and I canÂ’t blame them.

But more than the existence of them, we also get to learn the mutants finally considered that the Nodes themselves might just be a trap, meaning something that is intended to showcase mutants being aggressive towards the countries who arenÂ’t in a treaty with them.

I mean, really? Which genius thought of this possibility first? Can you, please, *tell* me on a data page, please?

Anyway, that is used to justified why mutants fell back to just observing and investigating Orchis.



I guess having an army of telepaths - one of them an actual ninja - doesnÂ’t allow them to do anything else other than watching Orchis gather more and more influence on Earth.

Lastly, they talk about how destroying the Forge and Nimrod is the highest priority. All right, so I guess it means IÂ’ll see all mutants launching an attacking, right? Like they did in XoS, but with the help of the Arakko mutants too, right?

Right?

Data page 2: Orchis map

The only thing important here: they have a telepathic buoy system, which is described as a telepathic minefield and a bunch of other defenses.

Which makes me ask myself: is Magik around? Did she die and something happened to her back-up? Is she stuck in Limbo? What about Lila Cheney?

Moving on. LetÂ’s get to the actual story, shall we?

Data page 3: Orchis events
No, we shanÂ’t. Because thereÂ’s yet *another* data page and this one is a pearl.

Orchis definitely is the weakest part of the story imo, the don´t have any built or complex motivation and Hickman is depending on data pages to tell us how much of a menace they are and so far, only Onslaught has shown that level of danger for Krakoa, we all can think of a lot of ways in which the X-men and Krakoa itself can just easily go away with Orchis influence and armies but the story needs Orchis to be a BIG DANGER and here we are, the character have to act dumb because of plot.

So omega-level Magneto dies trying to push the Forge to the sun because of is Dyson engines. Krakoan mutants? Shrug, call it a bad plan and donÂ’t think of bringing Exodus an omega-level telekinetic to help, because, you know we shouldnÂ’t remind the readers there is an omega-level telekinetic who could probably desintegrate the whole base.

Magneto can just short circuit the whole base and disarm it while Exodus destoys it at the molecular level but we need Orchis to be untouchable for the story to work and Moira to make sense, that´s the problem.

ItÂ’s the 6th page, the story hasnÂ’t even started yet, and my brain already hurts.

Anyway, there is a bunch of enigmatic entries of the X-Force.

. Domino escape - mission failure
. Mystique gateway. Vaccum - mission failure (why is this filed under “X-Force”?)
. 6x: Insertion/breach/attack - result unknown (how can they not know?)
. Orchis Hack. Emergency message from Kid Omega (I guess someone from X-Force planed his? Why didnÂ’t they try a circuit with Kid Omega, Sage, Trinary, Wiz Kid, one telepath connecting their minds and maybe Highjack?).

Then, Magneto tried again with a mutant circuit that collapsed after 6 hours, unable to to overcome that engine. Jesus, what engine is that? IÂ’m assuming Mags used Exodus, right? Right?

NowÂ…



Now, very important to note: this time Magneto placed himself on the other side of the Sun, in relation to the Forge, so he could use the starÂ’s gravity. Because, obviously, if heÂ’s at the same side as the Forge, the Sun actually pushes the station away from it.



Other than that, they also used assassins contracted through an Avalon intermediary and the Brood.

Can we start the actual story now?

My poor boy Hickman you are his fan, you know he can wreck things like nobodys bussines, I am very dissapointed sir, this is the reason why I have to get excited overh Erik drinking, I could buy him dying in such a silly manner if he was drunk out of his mind. Yes I get Orchis needs to be inestoppable but you could have used more issues to write that sir, that was your homework.

[Lucyinthesky]

Scene 2: Attack on Orchis

Quentin, Domino and Logan are attacking the Forge again. TheyÂ’re intercept by Nimrod and we get to see how he deals with them with no problem.

Orchis evil-guy-I-forgot-the-name tells us itÂ’s the 16th attempt of attacking them and he talks to evil-widow-I-forgot-the-name about the fact that when the Krakoans attack themselves itÂ’s always the same mutants and they donÂ’t seem to learn anything new, while Orchis is getting better at dealing with them, so itÂ’s like they donÂ’t remember.

Karima corrects her by saying: “No. Not entirely. Someone remembersÂ… It’s why they keep coming”, which is incidentally what is written in the quote page before scene 1. IÂ’d argue that this makes no sense as a conclusion, but I wonÂ’t waste my time here.

Instead, I’d prefer to know who remembers. I’m hoping Hickman isn’t trying to be smart here and refer to Moira, because it still makes no sense. But if you ask me if IÂ’m going to expect an answer to this? Nope. I won’t. IÂ’m expecting it will be yet another nonsensical stuff that was said just to be cool.

When even the bad guys are wondering why their opponent doesn´t learn anything and is just dying in a silly manner, we need an adjustment on characterization, already.

Scene 3:: Moira’s 3rd life flashback

I kid you not: 6 pages establishing the bad blood between Moira and Irene. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for getting new readers up to speed, but thatÂ’s the writer who said he wouldnÂ’t have “real estate” to write Rogue in a story that involves both her “mothers”.

I’ll spare you guys the comments about Irene’s speech and the whole sanctimonious stuff about the mutant cure. IÂ’ll also spare any comments about how Moira changed sides just ‘cause she told her so. Nothing of that is new and by now you probably know how I feel about both. But feel free to comment on it if you want.

I actually don´t know how you feel about Destiny and Moira honestly but I would like to hear about it.At this point, this isn´t Moira for me, this is some character that´s using her face but not much else besides it, she doesn´t even dress like her anymore and I have a hard time caring for her or her grieve with Destiny.

Then it cuts to Moira’s 10th life. She looks at an overgrown facility and holds a book that is somewhat burned where it reads “Project: Cure” and her name is listed together with 4 other people - probably the scientists who worked with her in the 3rd life - don’t ask me how she has this book.

Anyway, itÂ’s night time now and the scene cuts to Moira walking in a street in a place where the language is French. And then sheÂ’s walking into an apartment.

Scene 4:: Back to the baddies. All of them.

Apparently AIM and SHIELD is working with Orchis in monitoring the appearances of Krakoan gateways, near the “Node” in Terra Verde.

They get super puzzled by a “conflicting gateway signature”. Dr. Smyth discusses with their colleague about what to do (an entire page of it), they decide to call the ladies of Hordeculture and 2 other pages are spent with the old gals insisting the knowledge they sold was sound only to end up with them solving the mystery with one look at the data: the “clever” mutants planted two gates in the building, in the same location, on different floors.

Oh, God… I think the description is enough for a rant, isnÂ’t it? Is it not? Then here it goes: I guess Orchis can have the technology to put a base orbiting the sun with an engine that can resist any force applied to it, plus several space defences, but cameras inside their Nodes is too advanced.

Anyway, for some reason that makes the ape doctors go bunkers and decide that the Paris site became priority. I’ll justÂ… just… *shrug*

I get the feeling she told Charles an edited version of the events and while this doens´t make Destiny look anymore less than brutal and judgmental it does give arguments that "Moira" didn´t ever stop thinking mutants are monsters that should be cured or brought down and appart for the lack of nuance, this makes her look like the main villain of the story,with Orchis being just the goon, and my problem with this is that Charles and Erik have been following this woman blindly and even keep a fellow mutant dead under her instruction and this just doesn´t make sense with who they are as a people, but then this Moira manipulated them into becoming her tools didn´t she?

[Lucyinthesky]

Inferno #1, scene-by-scene rant - part 2
Scene 5:: MoiraÂ’s No-Place
Wearing the same clothes she was wearing in the previous scene, Moira is walking in her No-Place of Krakoa where Charles and Erik are waiting for her.
Get ready, because this is going to become even more bat-sh** crazy.
First thing we learn is that Moira thinks both men donÂ’t think her perspective is important when it comes to defeating Orchis. UhÂ… WHAT????

Exactly, I was also like, they have done everything you asked of them missy, even being completely OOC and dyng a few times, what´s you problem?

Somehow, Charles argues that even though they arenÂ’t listening to the woman with actual knowledge of what happens in this conflict, Nimrod might be an inevitability. Which tells me two things: 1. Charles would be horrible at debate club. 2. Charles and Erik are horrible at killing Nimrod.

They really are horrible at it when they should not and that´s the problem because it comes from the plot mandated story.

SeriouslyÂ… after those laughable attempts were made, I was kinda hoping it would be revealed that failing was part of the plan, actually. That they were actually trying to speed up the rise of Nimrod so they could fight it while Orchis was still weaker.

Nope. Those were *genuine* attempts. Including that botched solo Mystique mission.

After that, I donÂ’t know where I found energy to keep reading, but I didÂ…

So both Erik and Charles are jerks and ask her if in all her lives they ever attempted to befriend Orchis instead. She tells them there’re only two things they should worry about: Nimrod and Destiny. And then we find out that Moira has been to Muir Island and they knew that because no, they’re not following her, they implanted her with a “techno-organic transmission technology” that allows them to know when and which gates she’s using.

OMG!

Girl, run! These two gas-lighting older men are putting stuff in your tea and aware of where you go at all times. TheyÂ’re up to no good. Kill yourself and start over *FAR* away from both of them!

Yes what´s with that how come they are following everything she says to them to the letter even if it compromises them with their follow mutants and now are using tecnorganic viruses to know where she´s going? something the X-men have only done to sabretooth? what the hell? and how exactly is Destiny relevant in relation to Orchis? Would not be better to have her around precisely because Orchis seems to be so unstopable and Nirmrod an inevitability? Would not this be a good time to have someone who can see different variants and futures I ask?

Also sorry but while Magneto could still be mad enough at Moira over her tampering on his DNA to do something like this to her even if then it doesn´t explain why he put so much trust in her in the first time, Charles would never do this to a woman he is madly in love with, but then again, this is from the same writer that had the iluminati blowing out planets and even that had more background and built it than this.

I actually like Hickman´s writting and is precisely because of this I KNOW for a fact he can do better, not sure why he´s having so much trouble writing the X-men as they actually are.

nyway, theyÂ’re desperate and Moira starts making her demands: it starts with getting rid of the possibility to resurrect Irene and getting Raven out of a position of power. Which makes me goÂ… now you guys are going to go about that? Even if you didnÂ’t want to delete Irene, why is Mystique even in QC to begin with?

But, you know, water under the bridge. Let’s see how those geniuses will go about it. Moira suggests that since there are 2 positions open, they could sell the QC shuffle as a seasonal change, to which Mags reply: “Erased? That’s what you want?” and I honestly don’t know here if the letterer ate a speech balloon or Hickman didn’t revise the text with the art, because its feels super out of order.

Another two pages are spent on art, with Magneto arriving in Island M, where one of the Cerebro cradles is located, while we read some narration boxes where Moira says they canÂ’t control the Five, but they can control the back-ups.

And then another page is spent, showing Charles getting DestinyÂ’s DNA from Sinister, as she explains in more narration boxes that that is also needed. On the last panel, there are some containers where I guess it reads SN3. But I never really bothered with Krakoan (and I feel little dirty for even looking at its alphabet to write this), so feel free to correct me.

And finally we get yet another page in which Moira shows she fears and hates Destiny, in case we hadnÂ’t notice it yet.

Data page 4: Medical report

Yep. Because 3 is not too many!

We get a medical report of Black Tom Cassidy, by Cecilia Reyes. Physically heÂ’s better and stronger than heÂ’s ever been, but psychologically things get trickier: all kinds of tests, including telepathic ones, points out to perfect mental health, but heÂ’s suffering from an increasing number of debilitating psychoses (though he actually likes those weird sensations he gets). They think itÂ’s okay to keep him on duty, though, theyÂ’ll just be observing him. Yet another instance of mutant wisdom.

And IÂ’m suppose to believe they are superior. Right.

Anyway, this might have to do with Warlock. But weÂ’ll get there.

Scene 6:: DougÂ’s marital status

Doug wakes up, gets dressed, drink something and kisses Bei goodbye. She opens her eyes in a weird “I’m-a-villain” way. We learn that Doug leaves Warlock on Krakoan leaves (no pun intended) so he can have some privacy with his wife, I guess. Then he picks his friend up in the morning.

They chat a bit and Warlock is looking more branch-y, like a thinner, techno Groot (which is why I think Krakoa is infecting him and vice-versa).

Anyway, he tells Doug he thinks Bei is scary. Doug replies she’s a little terrifying but he loves her very much. At this point, Krakoa (really, the island) says something and he replies: “Hey, I love you too big guy. And don’t you forget it”.

Considering the last issue of WolverineÂ… I donÂ’t know what to think, but itÂ’s possible Scott and Jean are being out-kinked in the weird-marriage department as well.

Scene 7:: The captains are bullies and buffoons

Speaking of our couple, here comes ScottÂ’s cameo.

Scott goes on a thank-God-itÂ’s-at-least-short incoherent babbling about how heÂ’s older and a victory isnÂ’t a defeat regardless of common sense and how he canÂ’t be an X-Men and remain the chief-protector of their great mutant experimentÂ…

Let me puke a little. Be right back.

Anyway, Exodus is delightful as always, but asks an important question: why donÂ’t you just quit if youÂ’re heart isnÂ’t in it? And Mr. Summers, smiling as always, says anyone can tests his convictions because he was tested in wars and heÂ’s still standing.

(Moves the visor a bit so I can whisper in his ear: thatÂ’s not much of a merit when youÂ’ve been resurrected, my dear, and all of them can be resurrected too).

Xavier asks if Scott thinks itÂ’s really the right time to do it, and Mr. Smiley says itÂ’s perfect, doesnÂ’t offer a reason but assures heÂ’ll still be a Captain, but he canÂ’t me more than that.

Whenever anyone can explain what that second C does, please, feel free. So, he’s out in the world now because he’s an X-Man, so he can’t be the CC. But he can be a C. ‘Cause logic. But we shouldn't be too hard on him, who could have seen it would be difficult to be both an X-Man and the CC when he refused the QC seat and said they were re-forming the X-Men?

What is wrong with his visor?

Anyway, cool, they want Bishop to be the CC, let him have fun with it. It never meant anything for ScottÂ’s character anyway. Crown the new CC and letÂ’s move on, please?

Nope!

Emma has a problem with it *after* Ororo crowns the new CC, because they didnÂ’t ask if the Council was okay with it. And Kwannon is already showing her katana and Magic informs the White Queen katana-telepath will be taking GorgonÂ’s position, then asks if she has a problem with that too.

Erik makes an approving face-saving comment about how the captains are wolves and Kurt - bless his heart - tries to make things civil again and congratulates Bishop.

And at this point, IÂ’m thinking: is that it, then? But noÂ… itÂ’s not.

Because this is Krakoa and everyone is so happy, we lose another whole page with the Captains discussing their “traditions” and how they’re going to get drunk in Madrippor, with the explicit purpose of picking up a fight, as they walk towards the sun.

Ladies and gentlemen: the defenders of Krakoa.

I actually liked this scene, yes its kind of silly but I just love Magik and Erik sort of interacting and being in the same room as well as a calling out to their time in New mutants, I am weak, what I am going to say.

But I get your point, because this celebration doesn´t feel earned, the Great Captains have not acomplished anything yet and even if I think it´s fair for them to keep their own counsel when it comes to choosing a new leader for themselves without the council, because honestly, even the council doesn´t trust itself, them going to celebrate instead of addresing the security situation on Krakoa as well as the situation with Orchis is just is strange. I love to see them being happy but I would love some more old school scenes of them addresing Krakoa´s security.

[Lucyinthesky]

Scene 8:: The Quiet Council and the “oh, the twist! The twist!” I suddenly forgot how bad this issue was… (Nope, I didn’t)

It’s the same day and Xavier uses the previous scene as an excuse to talk about changing things. Basically, he’s saying: “well, think about what we built and if you’re willing to let go of your seat and go enjoy Krakoa and be happy, maybe you should do that.”

Kurt admits heÂ’s confused and he asks if Charles is requesting names to join the council or volunteers to step down.

Erik replies that they do need people and thereÂ’s a way to call a vote for that. But heÂ’s saying that the responsibilities with the council can be consuming and he considered retiring himself. And Charles adds that it is not urgent and they can think about it, but theyÂ’ll be talking to all the members and they should talk to each other about it too, because maybe changes will be good for them.

At this point, Mystique tells him that he knows perfectly well when he has a good idea. Charles is stupid enough to tell her heÂ’s happy she thinks so, but she interrupts him and tells him that she has a mutant she wants the Council to consider for joining them. And guess who that is? Destiny. At least, it appears to be.

Oh, yeah, and she walks towards the Council for the reveal (which takes two pages), we read the “There will be an island…” speech again.

And thatÂ’s the end, my friends. I donÂ’t know how smart Moira is supposed to be in this life, but Erik is supposed to be intelligent and Xavier is supposed to be brilliant. Even if Destiny hadnÂ’t appeared, how on Earth do they really think that stupid plan would work? The only person who could have been persuaded to give up on his seat would be Kurt (and maybe Kitty). All the others are power-hungry beasts.

Oh, well.. this has been long and draining and IÂ’m tired of dealing with this stupidity. So IÂ’ll leave it at it.

Well I definitely agree the "plan" to take out mystique from the council was silly, why invite her there at all then? why promise they were going to bring back irene if they truly were not going to even if they announced they will at some point to Moira? it´s like they have never been on a governing body which both at some point have been, Charles as a leader of mutant rights and Magneto on Genosha and the UN. They are way smarter than this.

Imo the best part so far of this story has been Mystique and Irene relationship, and "variant" Moira character development but my problem with this is that it´s coming at the cost of the characterization of a lot other characters and if not addressed this will also mess with the verosimilitude to the story.

I hope whatever Hickman is planning for the end will address all narrative issues.

[Grinning Soul]

I did indeed. :P

And you got it! :P

Careful with what you wish… :D

Yes but I think this is a little more complicated than that, I remember those were the reasons why Fraction wrote that scene of Magneto being on his knees in front of Scott and how humble was Scott about it but in they eyes of a Magneto fan, this was scene was like, you know, this is not the first time he agress someone else should be the leader, he was just less dramatic about it. :P and also Magneto got most of mutant population of Genosha together, so losing it the way he did was still heavy on his mind and a big part of his regret.

It was the drama that really bothered me about it.

Scott united 200 mutants (and not even all of them) who were at the brink of “extinction”, Mags. Chill it, hon, it's not *that* impressive. :P

Magneto enjoys having authority, this is a fact but this is not more important as what he´s able to do with that authority, his objective first was for mutants to rule instead of humans because humans would inevitabily try to abuse their authority over mutants, this is how Magneto sees authority, not by itself or power itself but what you can do with it.

I totally agree, Lucy. Mags is driven because he has a goal. He doesn’t love power for power. But… he builds thrones for himself. Scott had an office.

I was talking about that difference. I was not trying to reduce Erik to a power-junkie.

Even on the silver age, when he was not able to get this authority by his own force, he went to Dr Doom, a human that he expected could understand what he wanted to do, it´s a fun goofy story about Doom forcing Mags to fight him for the supervillain team up series, but it does tell a little about Magneto´s methods and relation to authority and later on the first Secret Wars we have a scene of Doom ofering Erik all he wanted so Magneto would join him but he didn´t tempt him with power, authority or being adored by people, he temped him with the idea that mutants would never be abused under his rule and he almost agreed until Charles snapped him out of it.

Later when Claremont began to add nuance to the character, Storm and him had this same discussion over power and authority, because Storm understood something Charles had a really hard time understanding, that Magneto genuinely wanted to make the world a better place, he had the wrong methods because of his might makes right way of thinking but his heart was in the right place and actually she told him this, because she also agreed that is was certainly an attractive temptation, to force all those goverments that use so much money on military armament to actually use it to help their populations instead, both Ororo and Erik(mostly Max) understood this on a deep level but there comes the great power, great responsiblity conundrum, just because they can doesn´t mean they should or that it´s doubtful this will have an actual, long lasting effect on people, while for Charles it was more a matter like sure he does have points, but he must be stopped, which I am like Ok but you can stop more people by understanding their reasons than by violent confrontation or both if you like, which was what Ororo did here.

And this background explains later why Storm and Magneto could work together well with the X-men and why Magneto respected Storm´s authority over the team and even himself while he took care of the new mutants.

So yes, this is how I see his relationship with Authority, it´s not the power or the position or being adored what matters to him most but what he can do with it and if push comes to shove, if there´s someone who can do a better job in something he agrees, he will respect their authority, be it Doom, Charles, Ororo or Scott because the end is good and he will sacrifice anything for it(which is not always a good thing, but that´s another discussion), including his pride.

Even though I hadn’t meant he loves power for power, what you said made me consider something: do you think it’s possible that sub-consciously he understands that his relationship with enjoying the power and the adoration gets in the way of his actual goals and, therefore, he actually *prefers* when he’s not the one leading because then he can focus on the actual goal and be more productive?

I think that would explain why he builds thrones for himself but at the same time he, indeed, doesn’t seem to mind when someone else is leading whatever cause he’s dedicating himself to.

He certainly is Charles friend and admires his qualities and would like to share his dream but he can´t, it´s Storm the friend he understands better and can bassically tell her anything, which he can´t always do with Charles, because they are on direct competence, for them it´s a mtter of you submit to my dream or I submit to your dream, which will never happen, or if it´s happens is because one of them has been broken, like Charles was after God loves man kills story or Magneto post Genosha massacre. While with Storm it was more a matter of "lets work together and make the best of it" so he´s more able to agree with her than Xavier. This contrast and his complex view of authority of the character is something most fans don´t get about him because it´s quite subtle but still there.

I’m not so sure if that’s the case, Lucy. It’s not like Storm ever walked away from the dream when she worked with Mags. I think it’s more a matter of perception from his part, you know?

Yes Cap is much more inspiring, I can see Scott being inspirational by his example, not by his words, his fellow X-men often feel inspired by his discipline and focus,

Scott is certainly a man of actions, not words. But I think he can be inspiring by words too, but through his logic and reliability.

While Cap hits you on your “feels”. And he’s extremely good at that. He truly believes in you and it makes you believe in yourself too.

I remember once how Gambit was asking Beast why Scott was not more worried about Jean being hurt and why he wanted to focus more on her telling them what happened and Hank told him Scott was the more worried of all of them about Jean and her well being but that he hold himself together because if they learned what happened they could help Jean but also stop whoever did this to her and so help other people.

Yep. I relate to him so much, you have no idea. People often think I’m unaffected when I’m the most affected person in the room. Something takes me over and I keep it together so we can solve the issue and then I can go shake like a little blade of grass against a hurricane.

Scott is my spirit animal. It’s not even funny.

Magneto can also be very inspirational but I get the feeling his follwers mostly admire his strenght and the life he had to overcome to get to this point. Like even an assasain send to kill him off stopped himself from doing so because he respected someone so focused on making life better for an often forgotten group of people, to the point of giving up his own humanity. I think it´s a different kind of inspiaration from all three of them.

Yep. I think Mags has an aura of power that speaks for itself, whether he likes it or not. That's something that's very inspiring and it's not something that either Cap or Cyke have.

I also don´t think Magneto admires people being willing to die for Scott or him, imo, that´s at the center of his trauma, Cortez actually manipulated him with this by having mutants die around him, he doesn´t want to see people he cares about dying around him again, literally or figuratively. So no, I think he mostly admires Scott´s hability to be an excellent general and also a good person, which is also why he took so much time trying to talk to Scott before calling the cavaliery during AvX when he knew Scott was being possesed by Phoenix and I loved their interaction here, we was like Scott you are acting like me, Scott listen, etc... I liked the dynamic they had on this era, it was very human and nuanced.

Let me rephrase: I don’t think Mags would be comfortable with people dying for him or Scott.

(I see Mags as ruthless, but not cruel or incapable of empathy.)

But I think he admires the level of loyalty it entails. That’s what I meant. Does it make sense?

Happy to be of help :P

Good conversations are a rare commodity nowadays. I value it a lot. :)