Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Grinning Soul]

Agreed my take on this was that the writting team were Scott fanboys,this forum had such fun that they even edited the scene and added flowers and chocolates and I was just like "my poor eyes" "I can´t unsee this" but also I was lol at the edits. :P

I’ve never hidden that I’m Scott’s fan. Heck, he’s my spirit animal.

But I can see fanboyism clearly, especially when I’m slapped on the face with it! :D

I hate that scene with a passion and If I’d seen those memes, I’d go Dark Phoenix. Nowadays, I can joke about it, but back then I was *ANGRY*, ‘cause:

1) Don’t make effing Magneto bend the knee. Just. Don’t. Ever.
2) Don’t turn Scott Summers into a Gary Stu. He doesn’t need every previous X-Men/mutant leader to praise him for his leadership and accomplishments. He has been a leader since the effing 60s.

I personally do think he enjoys his thrones but I also think this was marvel way of showing "Look how cool this bad guy looks on a throne" so yes, lest agree to disagree. Like I dont think is coincidence they show him in a office of just doing team work when he´s on his good phases and then they show him back into his throne like chair when he´s going to the "darkside" again.

(NOTE from the future: this is exactly what you said next, but I was replying as I was reading your points and now I’m too lazy to edit it. :P)

Which is exactly my point, Lucy. There’s a part of him that likes that power and the adoration and the thrones and that’s the part that leads him to the “dark side”. So I *think* he knows that on some level and that may be why, more than not minding when he’s not the leader, he may actually prefer it.

Look, I don’t say that as a way to paint Mags in a bad way. I think those things are what make characters interesting.

Scott (the real one) is a sulking, brooding, obsessive man who is unable to sugar coat things and I love him for that.

Jean (the real one) is a woman with a volcanic temperament and strong emotions that often get the best of her and many times those emotions aren’t pretty (like jealousy or anger). And I love her for that too.

Mags loves his thrones. And guess what? I love him for that. :D

Lol I agree and I do think he viewed himself like this on Genosha and Avalon but I think the destruction of Genosha, HoM and decimation pretty much broke his heart and beat this out of him in a painful way, he even told Charles on Excalibur "I can´t inspire people" to which Charles was like " Yeah sure" "And those last years we have been fighting over mutantkind leadership didn´t happen":P, He Will take leadership positions when needed but he now also appreciates way more than he used to the value of allies and outside support be it from the X-men, the Hellfire Club, the Avengers, etc. Those events showed him he can´t manage every possible possibility on his own as much as he would like to think otherwise.

Sure, that’s part of his character growth and I don’t think anyone can deny that he has grown as a character.

But if we keep the productive perspective, this is also why I think he´s productive either way, as Genosha leader he took the country back from the brink of self destruction to a tecnological country with all the infraestructure that comes with it in less than a year and on Utopia he managed the crisis with the support for the island by making an alliance with Namor and on Krakoa he did the whole "revive" mars thing with other omega mutants and Claremont even made the comment that Mars was a long time project he had with Magneto even before Hickman´s run, that was the end point for Asteroid M to have Mars as a home outside home for mutants, so yes, he´s good at management and he´s very productive either way but he was way happier living as headmaster or on Utopia and Krakoa than he was on Genosha or Avalon, symply because he allowed himself to be a person there and nost just be a symbol for people to fear or admire or hate.

I’d say that he was happier, but it’s not because he disliked being the symbol of fear, admiration or hate. I think it’s the opposite: he actually liked being that symbol a lot, to a point it became his life. And while that may sound fulling, that’s not actual happiness and eventually it weighs down on you.

True happiness is healthy. It permeates all aspects of your life but it doesn’t suffocate them.

Mmm I think he reases it to a certain point, he told Johana, a former acolyte, on X-men legacy he didn´t want followers and she didn´t want a leader anymore so both of them grew as people but he also enjoys being a leader, it´s only post HoM he has been more like, I will do things on my own or support others and if push comes to shove I will be a leader again but he´s aware than when he´s that he can also turn more to his inner "Darkside" than he would like because his mind goes right back into the "if it´s neccesary I will do it" pov, it´s something that even X-men Blue tackled openly with his talk with younger Jean, this duality of the character is something I have always liked and I think he can overcome his inner darkside but he would have to admit he needs help on that front and I am not sure the writers will let him :P

Okay, so that is exactly what I just said. Sorry. I’m replying as I’m reading. :D

Anyway, I think we actually agree, then. :)

Ok now you made me think of them as cavemen looking to rule over the tribe and I loled at this, but I see your point and I do see part of this being behind their differences but I also see some context and rational reasons behind their different perspectives.

I once read a fan tell how they saw the different perspective of Xavier and Magneto comes from how they grew up, in Charles case, he lived well off financially speaking but emotionally his father died when he was young, his mother was an alcholic and he often had to take care of her, his stepfather and stepbrother abused him and he tried in all those circunstances to be the better person and not take revenge on them even if he had the means and power to do so, his power allowed him to see them as flawed people that needed correction and even if to this day he still has a hard time forgiving Cain´s abuse,he still can´t help but think with the correct approach Cain can become a good person and he did to a point. So from Charles pov coexistence depends greatly on people´s personal choices and institutions are built around those people.

In Magneto´s case, he came from a loving family who had a good life before the war, with a very loving father who was proud of being Jewish and German and of his country acomplishments but when things got hard and the country his father loved turned on them, his father still hold some hope in people while his uncle Erich tought it was dangerous to take that perspective and they should take actions, in the end his father agreed but the family could not survive the war and Max(Magneto) had to survive by himself, alone but didn´t quite had the hope to make it either until he reunited with Magda, then them both fleed and married and he took on his uncle name "Erik". From his pov, the system failed his dad and his people, the system killed Anya and while he easily could see the reason behind that, he also learned that sometimes instituations can be quite inhumane to people if they see them as an obstacle to it´s objectives, so he came to the conclusion that if people are not part of the systems of power, especially if they happen to be vulnerable, they will be overcome and destroyed at some point,just in this case, it will be the case for mutants.

They started having this argument back on Israel and I think its telling that when Magneto told this to Charles, Charles thought he was a little drunk, because surely his good friend Magnus would agree with him on this? while for Magneto Charles looked too naive but well intentioned and noble and probably thought the world would just break his good friend heart. Of course there´s also both their egos at work, we can´t take that out of the equation but I think their previous and mostly unconscious memories are at work for a lot of their fights.

Like even when they said to each other "you are like a brother to me" they are not talking about the same thing, when Charles thinks of brother is both the idealized brother he wanted to have and... Cain and when Magnus thinks of brother is an idealized brother but also his sister who died in the war along with the rest of his family, that he failed to protect, in his mind and I seriously doubt both of those guys have ever come close to getting into those motivations, they argue over the present and keep subcouncious how much they are also talking about both their past imo.

Look, of course, the three of them are different people. So any relationship between any two of them will be unique because they have different backgrounds and we can’t ignore that.

But that was not the point. More bellow.

[Grinning Soul]

In Storm case I didn´t see this clash of personalities and pasts because Storm yes is woman but is also more flexible than both of them,

Yes, she is more flexible than both of them. But both of them are also more flexible when dealing with her than with each other. And that’s my point: it shows they’re capable of being more flexible, just not with each other. And that is an indication that there is a subconscious process going on here.

And Lucy, come on! Subconscious processes? This is pure narrative yumminess! :D

she was the first person ever to tell Magneto on page she thought his dream was worth fighting for, that it was good and the it was just the dreamer that had become corrupted. Charles never quite got to this point on his arguments with Magneto, for him Magnus was probably another person he had to help see his dream was the best option and this is why I think Magneto was more open to listen to Storm at first and why they worked so easily together when she was the X-men leader. So my take is that Storm was able to see there was more than one option while for them it was mostly one way or another. Well this is how I see it :)

But why are they unable to be flexible?

Maybe it started with Charles giving an academic/philosophical rebuttal that Mags took personally and that triggered a whole chain of events that made both men entrench themselves in their opinions simply because of some silly, subconscious male competitiveness BS. :D

Now, I’m not saying this is necessarily the case because I don’t even think any writer has thought of this possibility. But I think it helps explaining some of what we know is canon.

Besides, it’s tasty! :P

"Power incarnate" "Refined, cultured, gentleman" is a great way to describe them :)

Honestly same here, they are both very impresive indeed :o

Fun fact: Magneto has openly called Charles a " A Gentleman, learned and cult" things he greatly admires while Charles has said on page he has taken inspiration to keep fighting for his dream from Magneto so even they are not unaware of this :P

Not at all. They’re mutual admiration is canon.

I’d make a joke here, but you’d get that spray bottle you took from me, spray me and tell me to calm down again, so I won’t. :P

Well they have cooperated before on the School and on Genosha post massacre, this is not unheard but Krakoa is the first try of them mixing their approaches instead of going with one or another and with them both as leaders, Utopia was more Scott running the show and at the school everybody listened to Charles more than anything, even Magneto as a personal favor for him agreed to be the New Mutants teacher.

Pre-Krakoa their cooperation was very different.

Argh… I feel Moira and Krakoa screw up every discussion, because things made a certain sense before but don’t now. On top of that, we have to consider this agent who had behind the shadows all this time and we don’t even know what exactly is still canon because of that. Especially when it comes to Mags and Charles.

And I get grumpy, because I was going to argue something here, but considering she ‘s been pulling Charles’ strings for so long, who knows if it’s still valid. *Sigh*

Never mind.

Indeed he´s and yes, your description is exactly what I meant by admiring those traits.

If I can, I do more than waiting for the rescue, but in that case it was really all I could do. I was really young, I have no idea how I remained so calm and could make all those cold calculations on what was the best for me to do.

It was pretty dangerous. I could have suffered some very serious injury or even died if I was unlucky enough. But, considering everything that could have gone wrong, I was actually pretty lucky.

Lmao don´t stop on my behalf, I love your puns, Pietro can´t help his mercurial temper and Magnus can´t stop being magnetic, it´s who they are :P

Yep.

I’ll try, at least, not to quote Shakespeare, though. :D

Yes a loyal person can sacrifice themselves not just for one person in particular but because they see as a way to protect someone else or for a good end and this doesn´t meant they will do this at the drop of a hat, just when it truly doesn´t look like there´s another option, imo all the X-men have a little of this and Magneto did this to defend Utopia form the sentinels and not just for his loyalty to Scott.

The X-Men certainly have it in them, but only when they trust whoever is leading them.

I don´t think Mags is conflicted over the X-men loyalty to Scott, he feels conflict over the dream of coexistence, basically because every nerve and bone on his body tells him, this is naive, stop doing this, this doesnt work but the loyalty Scott and Charles have personally as people, he can see why and agrees and even feels some of that same loyalty.

No, I meant Mags would be conflicted over people dying around him for a cause, like you’d said.

It´s part of it but I also love how much themes we can cover here, and it´s great to be able to do so with friends :P

One day Havok83 will come back to this thread and see I’m sharing recipes here now and they’ll demand some explanation. :P

Until that happens, let’s keep it going ‘cause this is too much fun. :)

Besides, hey, I also share panels about both characters and the relationship this thread is dedicated to. So we should be covered. :P

[Grinning Soul]

I was going to say there´s a chance but I just found out Jean is on the cover of the first issue but well, if you go Dark Phoenix, I am here to listen.

It’s like I wrote to a friend today: if Percy really screws up with Jean, he’ll only be making my rage-quit easier. So I’m choosing to see this as a win-win. But the victory most likely won’t come without a massive dosage of anger!

Considering the events in my real life, though, I may prefer to skip this trash entirely. :(

I understand :P and yes Jean didn´t have much of a characterization but given at the time she was still dead, I just took what little was there of her. I guess I missed her so seeing her talk to Scott there made me ridicuously happy.

I like the description before her line much better than her actual line.

"A familiar voice speaks to me through it. It's a whisper, a shout and a choir. Every eternal syllable dances through me."

You don’t follow that with “You’re an idiot”. You don’t do that to a fan of this relationship who has been waiting 12 years for their interaction!!!!!

Nope.

You just don’t.

I will tell him to brace himself.

”Operation: Get Cyked, Cyke” about to commence! :P

On this I agree, is hard to feel bad for them when they are so ready to bring down take away what makes these characters so appealing and popular in the first place. I liked the idea of Krakoa, it´s the execution that has been lackluster with just some exceptions like Ewing Sword.

Honestly? I think S.W.O.R.D. only appears to be great in comparison to the rest. It’s mostly good, but it’s far from brilliant. It suffers from some of the same problems as the others, including the biggest one of this Krakoa era: *everything* is convenient. Don’t get me started on Mysterium.

That one exactly.

I like that story too. :)

Lol I will make sure to do so on January or February but I am not sure if you also want to avoid X lives of Wovlerine.

I was already seriously considering skipping it before it was confirmed Jean will appear on it.

She definitely can, I liked more Jenny´s man. He was nice.

You mean Major Nelson?

Yees, lots of space for little bubble thoughts to play around.

Infinite space, ‘cause I can always write more when more thought bubbles need a home. :)

Sometimes it´s neccesary to just let it all out.

I don’t know if it’s necessary, but it’s too tempting to resist. :D

Well I counted Jean and Scott scenes with Cable and them arguing over that plant in their home but yes, there was a lot more of Jean/Logan than Scott/Jean this era and yes, not amused at all at her just being on X-force to be Logan´s girlfriend, I thought it was a great idea to put her in a position not quite confortable for her but I got dissapointed when he just wanted her to be with Logan, forgetting even her long time friends. like, just no.

But before XoS, they barely interacted (up to that point, Emma appeared more in that book than Jean who is his mother). That event is really what started shifting their relationship into a more actually romantic one and I think people must have responded well to it.

Let’s hope Percy doesn’t screw this up again.

As for Jean in the X-Force, it’s like I told you: if Percy didn’t want anyone opposing Hank’s behaviour and trying to steer the X-Force into a group which is limited by a certain code of ethics, why the hell did he put Jean there?

Really: it was just to be Logan’s girlfriend. Which is insulting and wrong in so many levels I won’t even start to list them!

I honestly think Spurrier got himself so excited over the story in his head that he forgot, we the readers were not quite there with him yet and I disliked him bullying Kurt over being catholic every issue, leave him alone Simon. :mad:

That story amounted to nothing. Ugh. I doubt we’ll see any difference in the characters behaviour what-so-ever.

And yes: his portrayal of Kurt is infuriating..

No, I don´t think so, Leah herself said the title was not her choice and that her story was not really about Magneto even if it had his name on the title, things I could deal with if he just had a better characterization but given he doesn´t, you can just picture my dissapointment over her take on him and Lorna. I just hope it´s done quickly.

Marvel to us: “Trial is not in the sense of a court trial, you silly readers. You thought so? You’re so cute! No, no. We didn’t mean it like that. Sure, there was a murder and we advertised that to no end, but trial here is used in the sense of someone being tested and going through a difficult time, obviously.”

Don’t you love when they gaslight us?

As for Mags and Lorna… ugh… I honestly don’t know how you’re stomaching that story, Lucy.

I will remember to talk about the Latin neutral but if it comes to words they will understand, I will just say "I get tiggered everytime you say the word Latinx" :p they may still call me a bigot but will get part of why I dislike the word and people have actually called me a nazi before, I can deal with being called a bigot and is a more fun way of saying it :P

These people only understand buzz words: “Cultural imperialism. Want to be neutral? Use the word of your own language: Latin”. That’s what I suggest you them if you ever have to.

Sigh yes, this definitely looks like it, this is why I think is important for people to talk about this problem.

I think so too. We can’t just accept every idea that gets pushed on social media. This is madness.

Lol I am sure Spock would love to have us over and will get confused over Earth becoming so un-logic it will hurt his brain ;P

We’ll request asylum, then, to make it official. :D

Yes I think I will also talk to them about 1984 and what was the exact point of the "Thought Police" and add they will not always get to say what each word means if history is anything to go by imo.

Right on the money, Lucy. And you bet this pun - though more obscure - was intended. *wink*

[Grinning Soul]

Yes I also think it´s the amber light.

I’m almost sure that was Mags indeed.

I didn´t think so but you may be right, I just hope it´s not the case, already tired of Krakoa taking death so lightly.

You know what just occurred me? They take death so lightly I even forgot that Jean already doesn’t have the first place. I don’t think anyone can beat Quentin Quire at this point!

Yes I got his idea to redeem Cortez or make him more palatable and it´s ok, I get it but I also think he should have done that on previous issues and his role should have been a little more active and Lost too.

Exactly. Don’t make Fabian Cortez more palatable on an issue people should be defeating effing Onslaught!

Argh!

The Asteroid has been the answer from day one, instead of sending X-force over and over again.

- Genius 1: We can’t push the Forge into the Sun. So, I guess we need to send three mutants to fight Nimrod instead.
- Clueless-person-there-to-validate-the-geniuses: How many times?
- Genius 2: As many as it takes.

The problem is that not only are they not superior but this makes them look like fools. Trained warriors from thousands of battles, who have saved the world over and over again, keep sending their people to die constantly and don´t learn anything from it. This is worse.

"Yep" to the power of "hell, yeah".

Yes I agree we need a lot more human allies equaly if not more convinced of the coexistence idea and I miss Kavita a lot. I just thought Moira being a mutant was a nice way to close up the legacy virus plot until they decided to rewrite her entire personality.

Yeah, re-writing her personality was the worst part. Hands down. But I really don’t like her being a mutant. The Legacy Virus stuff could have been explained in many other BS ways. Those are Marvel comics after all. :)

I also miss Kavita…

Yes I enjoy them having romantic relationships like every other reader, I thouht apocalypse love for Genesis was cute and yes it was interesting to see Nimrod not just being a mutant killing machine but we didn´t see how they got there and from Mystique and Destiny I am mostly enjoying their ruthlesness, it´s been a long time since I saw them being actually menacing so them on inferno, actually look like people who would be leaders of the brotherhood.

Nothing against romantic relationships at all. But Hickman uses them to convince us those characters have depth and then proceeds to write whatever the hell he wants because it’s like he thinks he covered the “my characters should be likeable” requirement. Also, he often uses those marriages as excuse for silly character motivations (regardless of canon) and plots.

I don’t buy it.

I hope so.

I’d be more worried about that if that story was happening in Duggan’s Marauders.

Well, lest see what happens, I personally dont think this Moira will last much but her being a villain could be interesting.

I’d be very angry.

I hope I wont but I can deal with dissapointment if needed.

If that’s the case, I’ll be here for you and you can rant or cry or rage all you want. :)

Yess lest go get ready for out dark phoenix moments, you with X lives of Logan and I with ToM :D

Yeah. And since Scott broke the protocol already, I can even Dark Phoenix with my dark brown hair. Getting this hair to look red would be a pain! :P

On this I agree completely, the X-men are some of the biggest heros in comics Mr Hickman and their flagship book should show it.

Isn’t that the minimum you should know and accept as truth *before* you get hired to write the X-Men flagship? Marvel's job interviews must be precious. :P

It´s indeed :P

Probably, I liked to see Valerias development, Reed fight with himself over his goals and his family as well as Franklin human side despite his powers.

Maybe I should give it another try. But I don’t know what it is about Hickman’s style… I like some of the ideas, but I find the writing boring.

Yes, it´s sometimes the little things that make us more happy, I also enjoy a lot when they play my favorite songs in the radio, it´s just different than when I play them myself.

Isn’t it? It’s like a little gift from the universe. :)

Lol well whoever this Scott is I hope it´s having fun so Scott can come back to himself later.

I’d say I’d love if StepfordScott would explode himself due to too much laughter, but they’d just bring him back, so what would be the point?

I just want my real baby back!

Theres one actually, the Akademos habitat has one but they have not truly shown it.

Well… the artist there isn’t a fan of drawing backgrounds, so there was an issue where the kids were training in an open space and then using some jungle gym equipment in another… I’m not sure I’d call it a training facility.

Lol I don´t think they edited Domino on purpose, I think Onslaught "eat" those memories just like he did with others, so yes, so far no one has gotten their memories purposely edited, that we know of, Inferno could change this.

It really wasn’t the case. She spent quite some time in Krakoa/missions after she was rescued and before her death. Her mind was certainly scanned during that period so Onslaught didn't eat those memories. Someone must have edited her back-up.

Honestly, this is my exact feeling everytime I read a comic with my faves on it, so I totally get this feeling and could not agree more.

And we’re not the only ones. Other readers have said the same. What does it tell you about Marvel?

[Legaldrugdealer]

Recent Nycc commission pickup by V Ken Marion

[TheDeadSpace]

Recent Nycc commission pickup by V Ken Marion

I like the look of this one. Quite stylized.

Thanks for always sharing your commissions. They're a welcomed treat.

[Legaldrugdealer]

I like the look of this one. Quite stylized.

Thanks for always sharing your commissions. They're a welcomed treat.

Thanks man! Glad someone appreciates it =)

[Gray Lensman]

I’ve never hidden that I’m Scott’s fan. Heck, he’s my spirit animal.

But I can see fanboyism clearly, especially when I’m slapped on the face with it!

I hate that scene with a passion and If I’d seen those memes, I’d go Dark Phoenix. Nowadays, I can joke about it, but back then I was *ANGRY*, ‘cause:

1) Don’t make effing Magneto bend the knee. Just. Don’t. Ever.
2) Don’t turn Scott Summers into a Gary Stu. He doesn’t need every previous X-Men/mutant leader to praise him for his leadership and accomplishments. He has been a leader since the effing 60s.

I see this scene differently than you do, I think. I saw Magneto kneeling as being much. much more about Magneto than it could ever be about Scott. Not only did Mags take up the whole page, the guy goes full ham and paraphrases Shakespeare, simultaneously shoving Xavier aside and starting the process where he, and not anyone else would be the second most powerful advisor on Utopia after Emma Frost. The guy displayed more arrogance from his knees than most villains not named DOOM can manage when they have the world on theirs. It was a grandiose, attention grabbing gesture that put all eyes on Magneto, and reframed (or at least attempted to) Utopia as being more from Magneto's vision than Xavier's or Scott's.

[Lucyinthesky]

He usually can do all of that without the need of being on his kness and given how the writer used this scene to have Scott scream at Charles once again, I don´t really think it was about Magneto, more like trying to get the point across this was the moment for Scott to be the main mutant leader, which is not bad, they just didn´t need to picture Charles and Magneto like this to get to that point.

[Lucyinthesky]

I’ve never hidden that I’m Scott’s fan. Heck, he’s my spirit animal.

But I can see fanboyism clearly, especially when I’m slapped on the face with it!

I hate that scene with a passion and If I’d seen those memes, I’d go Dark Phoenix. Nowadays, I can joke about it, but back then I was *ANGRY*, ‘cause:

1) Don’t make effing Magneto bend the knee. Just. Don’t. Ever.
2) Don’t turn Scott Summers into a Gary Stu. He doesn’t need every previous X-Men/mutant leader to praise him for his leadership and accomplishments. He has been a leader since the effing 60s.

Agreed completely.

(NOTE from the future: this is exactly what you said next, but I was replying as I was reading your points and now I’m too lazy to edit it.)

Which is exactly my point, Lucy. There’s a part of him that likes that power and the adoration and the thrones and that’s the part that leads him to the “dark side”. So I *think* he knows that on some level and that may be why, more than not minding when he’s not the leader, he may actually prefer it.

Look, I don’t say that as a way to paint Mags in a bad way. I think those things are what make characters interesting.

Scott (the real one) is a sulking, brooding, obsessive man who is unable to sugar coat things and I love him for that.

Jean (the real one) is a woman with a volcanic temperament and strong emotions that often get the best of her and many times those emotions aren’t pretty (like jealousy or anger). And I love her for that too.

Mags loves his thrones. And guess what? I love him for that.

I liked your analysis on Jean and Scott and yes, Erik may like his thrones but I seriously doubt that´s on his mind most of the time when it comes to leadership, now being a leader, he definitely enjoys.

Sure, that’s part of his character growth and I don’t think anyone can deny that he has grown as a character.

He´s been growing since the 80´s, Claremon´t end point for the character was for him to become a "stateman" for mutant rights and a leader for the X-men the problem was that Bob Harras wanted forcibly turn him into a villain again during the 90´s but at least most of the time he had writers that tried to keep the nuance of the character, now they are sort of trying to get into a middle point between both eras and so far its been ok, I am interested to see future stories with him tackling the grey zone.

I’d say that he was happier, but it’s not because he disliked being the symbol of fear, admiration or hate. I think it’s the opposite: he actually liked being that symbol a lot, to a point it became his life. And while that may sound fulling, that’s not actual happiness and eventually it weighs down on you.

True happiness is healthy. It permeates all aspects of your life but it doesn’t suffocate them.

I think he definitely enjoys being the leader but becoming a symbol is more a result for the actions he takes, like in the case of the Acolytes, he truly didn´t want to become their leader and most of the time he wasn´t, Exodus or Cortez or Amelia were their leaders but he definitely was a symbol for them.

Okay, so that is exactly what I just said. Sorry. I’m replying as I’m reading.

Anyway, I think we actually agree, then.

Yes we do. :P

Look, of course, the three of them are different people. So any relationship between any two of them will be unique because they have different backgrounds and we can’t ignore that.

But that was not the point. More bellow.

Yes, she is more flexible than both of them. But both of them are also more flexible when dealing with her than with each other. And that’s my point: it shows they’re capable of being more flexible, just not with each other. And that is an indication that there is a subconscious process going on here.

And Lucy, come on! Subconscious processes? This is pure narrative yumminess!

Well now I am curious, how would you describe their subconscious process? I was also talking a little about this, their story leads to them being more inclined to confront each other because of the way they approach the mutant situation and yes, there´s a lot to unravel there.

But why are they unable to be flexible?
Maybe it started with Charles giving an academic/philosophical rebuttal that Mags took personally and that triggered a whole chain of events that made both men entrench themselves in their opinions simply because of some silly, subconscious male competitiveness BS.

Most of their discussions were said from an academic pov because both were afraid of the other discovering they were mutants and didn´t expect them to react well to the news, some trust issues there already but I don´t think Magneto was tiggered by anything Charles said on an academic pov, he even once said he expected him to be right or wanted him to be able to give reality to his dreams and Magneto himself is very much academicaly inclined, the problem was that by his own experience what Charles said, sounded more like whisful thinking than anything else to Erik´s ears, so he was more like "I wish you were right but I truly don´t think the world works that way"

What´s so interesting to me personally is that at this point the trained soldier was Charles and Magneto was just getting into the whole spy bussines after losing his family for the second time. So it wasn´t like Charles didn´t know the harder side of the world but he insisted that it was possible for mutants to work with the system, while for Magneto it was more like, by my experience, mutants will have to play a bigger hand in the system if they hope to survive and they just never advanced from this point. Still Erik was not truly Magneto, so it was not yet a mission statement from him, just his pov on the matter and here´s where they can´t move,because Charles sometimes interprets this as people or Erik not seeing the goodness of his dream, while in reality they just have different perspectives and story.

Now, I’m not saying this is necessarily the case because I don’t even think any writer has thought of this possibility. But I think it helps explaining some of what we know is canon.
Besides, it’s tasty! :P
Not at all. They’re mutual admiration is canon.
I’d make a joke here, but you’d get that spray bottle you took from me, spray me and tell me to calm down again, so I won’t. :P

I will get ready the bottle but I still would love to hear you joke

Pre-Krakoa their cooperation was very different.

Argh… I feel Moira and Krakoa screw up every discussion, because things made a certain sense before but don’t now. On top of that, we have to consider this agent who had behind the shadows all this time and we don’t even know what exactly is still canon because of that. Especially when it comes to Mags and Charles.

I think most of what happened is still canon, Charles and Erik didn´t try to work together with Moira until Magneto accepted to become part of the school and this helps to explain why Charles bassically ordered the X-men to accept him at the time and following Hickman´s timeline, they truly became enemies during mutant genesis after magneto discovered Moira was manipulating his dna and thought Charles knew, this would also explain Charles anger at magneto if they had bigger plans that Magneto didn´t want to help him develop.

Not everything fits but it also doens´t change things in a deeper way imo, at least for Charles and Erik, Moira on theo ther hand, had her entire personality rewritten and I don´t think it was worth it.

If I can, I do more than waiting for the rescue, but in that case it was really all I could do. I was really young, I have no idea how I remained so calm and could make all those cold calculations on what was the best for me to do.

It was pretty dangerous. I could have suffered some very serious injury or even died if I was unlucky enough. But, considering everything that could have gone wrong, I was actually pretty lucky.

I think those are the moments that truyly show us how capable we need to be and I am happy you were not hurt :P

Yep.

I’ll try, at least, not to quote Shakespeare, though.

The X-Men certainly have it in them, but only when they trust whoever is leading them.

Agreed but I also think it´s because of the end itself

No, I meant Mags would be conflicted over people dying around him for a cause, like you’d said.

Yes he would be, in his mind if he does his job well, no one should die so for him, them having to sacrifice to help him or save him, he looks like a personal failure unless the mission involves something bigger than all of them, AoA was a good example of this, he was not only asking them to have almost suicidal missions to get a little bit of advantage, their last mission involved all of them getting into the idea no one of them or their loved ones would be able to live post it, neither their world but they still did it because they wanted to give an opportunity for a different world and this is truly my different part of the crossover, it showed off the heroic side of the X-men in a great way.

]One day Havok83 will come back to this thread and see I’m sharing recipes here now and they’ll demand some explanation. :P
Until that happens, let’s keep it going ‘cause this is too much fun.
Besides, hey, I also share panels about both characters and the relationship this thread is dedicated to. So we should be covered.

Then I hope to see Havok83 soon around here ;P

Grinning Soul,it´s a little late here right now so I will answer the other messages tomorrow.

[Grinning Soul]

Recent Nycc commission pickup by V Ken Marion

Thanks man! Glad someone appreciates it =)

Thanks for sharing, Legaldrugdealer. I like this piece. Particularly Scott's body and facial expressions.

And hey! I appreciate it too!!!

I didn't write before because was having a really bad day yesterday, so I just replied to some private messages.

But, really, thank you for sharing those pieces of art with us. I love this couple so much! It's always nice to see them.

[Grinning Soul]

I see this scene differently than you do, I think. I saw Magneto kneeling as being much. much more about Magneto than it could ever be about Scott. Not only did Mags take up the whole page, the guy goes full ham and paraphrases Shakespeare, simultaneously shoving Xavier aside and starting the process where he, and not anyone else would be the second most powerful advisor on Utopia after Emma Frost. The guy displayed more arrogance from his knees than most villains not named DOOM can manage when they have the world on theirs. It was a grandiose, attention grabbing gesture that put all eyes on Magneto, and reframed (or at least attempted to) Utopia as being more from Magneto's vision than Xavier's or Scott's.

Yeah. I suppose we see it really differently, then.

[Grinning Soul]

Grinning Soul,it´s a little late here right now so I will answer the other messages tomorrow.

Don't worry, hon. I'll wait for all your replies, then. But take your time, please.

[Gray Lensman]

He usually can do all of that without the need of being on his kness and given how the writer used this scene to have Scott scream at Charles once again, I don´t really think it was about Magneto, more like trying to get the point across this was the moment for Scott to be the main mutant leader, which is not bad, they just didn´t need to picture Charles and Magneto like this to get to that point.

I confess that people screaming at Charles for being a hypocritical ass no longer really registers with me - he bounces in and out of that characterization all the time, going back to the Lee/Kirby days. What most people think of with him might actually be a shorter period of his behavior, where he actually means well but falls short of his ideals - it seems to me that more often in the comics he is much more of a "do as I say, not as I do" mentor, broken up by periods where he actually attempts to practice what he preaches.

[Grinning Soul]

Kinda ***Spoilers***

Other than the panels of the preview, there is one genuinely cute moment between our couple in X-Men #4.

Even as a Jean fan, I have to say I found the issue pretty meh. The only departure from the formula is that they didn't have a meal with the locals.

But I'll talk more about it (and post some pics) once you guys read the book.