Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Su_Whisterfield]

Even the rationalization for crucible never made sense to me so I am willing to forget about it as if it was a fever dream and Kurt calling himself a "priest" in this context doesn´t make sense, in the first place because catholic Priests don´t go around creating new "religions", even Spurrier understood this and that´s why we saw Kurt denying over and over again on Way of X that this was not a new "religion", in the second place Kurt never quite became an actual priest so him acting as if he was is a disservice to his character because he would be lying about something deeply important to him, he´s a catholic lay man and as such, what he usually would do, as part of a goverment, is to try to make laws that serve the well being of the community and in the case of Crucible ask if it was actually neccesary or not and offer an alternative because it was just plain wrong to victimize people already suffering for their loss of their powers. In short I can buy apocalypse suggesting the idea but it was character assesination of almost every other character on the QC not called Sinister the fact they didn´t even try to stop it as the madness it was but we are supposed to buy the characters having "doubts" which is just like, nope, they would not have doubts about it being wrong.

So Way of X ending with a new proposal of hey "Crucible is wrong" was for me just like, Yes, I already knew that, what I don´t get is why you wrote your characters accepting it when they would never do so IC before but I don´t expect to be given an answer now so I just want to go on and forget about it.

I absolutely agree , you are correct on many counts.
While individuals splitting off from the 'orthodox' faith and starting their own sect is historically nothing new.I found way of X was not really a deep story exploring Kurt's philosophical questions. It didn't (at least not from his point of view) answer anything. I know there are no easy answers either way but the writers in all likelihood did not want to tackle the thorny issues.So I don't know why they even had a stab at it.
Anyway for me 'The Crucible' is fundamentally what is wrong with Krakoa.I get they wanted to coalesce a nation around their whole identity as mutants. However by ritualising a murder ritual to form an honour culture.Speaks of a supremacist/extremist ideology.
To say being human is a lesser/debased state is just so far from what Xavier's dream was about that to see him at the crucible was just a yikes moment.

To show Krakoa flags waving and mutants cheering around this gives fascist/nazi vibes. What is more is the whole subtext is the X-Men or any other heroic mutant group ,is only of value not for the heroism of fighting for their own survival (or even fighting for humanity to bridge the differences and promote unity) but for their identity as mutants, for having their unique powers that set them apart from the ordinary.
Does this mean every mutant who lost their powers but is not part of the crucible is worthless?
Basically the premium is not on a wholesome individual but just their unique endowment which to me is not good writing. I really find Krakoa's premise around mutant 'boons' to humanity as hypocritical. On the one hand the mutants voice disdain for being like mere humans at the crucible, they then through superpowers and genetic engineering and machinery(cerebro) conquer death by effectively embracing 'transmutantism'- if the term suffices- terraform a planet, give humanity life prolonging and cognitive function boosting drugs..
However the moment humans through their own ingenuity make a base on Mercury, embrace artificial intelligence (machines) or transhumanism (OS or the children of the Vault) oh no no no , do not dare do that coz the it's bad for us...I don't want Krakoa as a reality erased, but I feel the writing of mutants even with ambitious attempts of building a nation and culture could be better.

That is why the council was a great idea for me because that way all voices of the optimists(Xavier,Jean) idealists(Exodus,Kurt) narcissists(Sinister,Emma) and supremacists (Apoc,Magneto) could bounce off each other and you have genuine attempts at the 'better angels' prevailing over the others from time to time or failing but not being entirely culpable for some of the strange decisions Krakoa is taking.
I mean in X-Men#4 (Leinil Yu 'Davos' issue)one could hardly see any difference between Apocalypse, Magneto and Xavier. They were all speaking with one voice which was just bizzare to me.

Anyway I know there is attempts at shock value but in this era I find the writing and narrative choices inconsistent with most of the character histories.

Argh! I hate derailing the thread, but both these posts are so on the nose, particularly the bolded.

To try and get back on topic, I can suspend my belief in how characters would act to some degree but I can’t suspend it long enough or hard enough to believe that Jean and Scott are acting in character at the moment (let alone Kurt). Crucible was the straw which broke the camel’s back for me.

[Lucyinthesky]

I absolutely agree , you are correct on many counts.While individuals splitting off from the 'orthodox' faith and starting their own sect is historically nothing new.I found way of X was not really a deep story exploring Kurt's philosophical questions. It didn't (at least not from his point of view) answer anything. I know there are no easy answers either way but the writers in all likelihood did not want to tackle the thorny issues.So I don't know why they even had a stab at it

Well more than splitting from the orthodox faith, the idea of creating another religion or a sect it´s considered a schism in the catholic pov, which is what happened with Luthero. Initiatives to help the community at large on the arts, health, education, social work fronts are always welcome but if people want to do them as part of an institution representing the catholic faith, they need to have approval from its authorities. Now if we are talking about initiatives created to serve the community in general then people they can do it on their own which was Kurt´s case on Way of X imo, because he wanted to serve his society on the social/moral/ethical front or the matters of the heart as David called them and this is why I agreed with Spurrier that it was neccesary to leave clear this story was not about developing a new religion. That said I completely agree with you Spurrier didn´t really go deeply with this idea and Way of x ended being more about adventure than anything else so yes such a waste because it would have been great to see Kurts phylosophical pov.

Anyway for me 'The Crucible' is fundamentally what is wrong with Krakoa.I get they wanted to coalesce a nation around their whole identity as mutants.However by ritualising a murder ritual to form an honour culture.Speaks of a supremacist/extremist ideology.To say being human is a lesser/debased state is just so far from what Xavier's dream was about that to see him at the crucible was just a yikes moment.
To show Krakoa flags waving and mutants cheering around this gives fascist/nazi vibes. What is more is the whole subtext is the X-Men or any other heroic mutant group ,is only of value not for the heroism of fighting for their own survival (or even fighting for humanity to bridge the differences and promote unity) but for their identity as mutants, for having their unique powers that set them apart from the ordinary.Does this mean every mutant who lost their powers but is not part of the crucible is worthless? Basically the premium is not on a wholesome individual but just their unique endowment which to me is not good writing. I really find Krakoa's premise around mutant 'boons' to humanity as hypocritical.On the one hand the mutants voice disdain for being like mere humans at the crucible, they then through superpowers and genetic engineering and machinery(cerebro) conquer death by effectively embracing 'transmutantism'-

Agreed with all this, if we were talking about Krakoa hundred of years in the future I could see it´s culture developing like this given the isolationism being developed there but this is unbelievable coming from a group of people who only a year ago used to live among the rest of the human nations and were born with their social/cultural povs. I could buy them being deppressed, self destructive and hostile because of all the times the world at large seemed to ignore initiatives developed with the idea of killing all of them but the idea of them succedenly leaving behind everything that was part of their identity in a year lacks basic logic, let alone the fact the X-men themselves were still interested in participating with the rest of the world and I don´t even see Magneto agreeging to brutalize decimated mutants given how he himself took care of the decimated mutants at Genosha and his first idea definitely was not to kill them off because they were a shame or kill himself because he no longer was a mutant and I could see even Raven, used to work for the US goverment and has lived 100 years on her own in the "human world" raising an eyebrow over mutants killing each other for sports or to prove they are worthy. Like I said, I can see Apocalypse approving this because he would see it as them needing to prove themselves but this would be complete madness to the other members of the QC, again with Sinister exception, who has never cared about mutants.

I also agree that this looked like Hickman may have been doing a critic on this particular pov but the fact he very much left basic charactherization of heroic characters out the window gives a feel of this story being very void in actual content. It proposes a lot of ideas but it leaves all of them behind and the cost to the characters personality was too high. The X-men are supposed to be heros and if Hickman wanted to tackle them in this context the least he could do was do so allowing them their proper reaction to the crucible, not just give some vague excuse of them having too many doubts to act because that never has been part of their characterization.

if the term suffices- terraform a planet, give humanity life prolonging and cognitive function boosting drugs..

On this I will agree to disagree, terraforming a planet was the first time ever in which usually destructive mutant powers were used for something positive and I liked the idea of superpowers being used for more than punching people around. It´s the same feeling I have from seeing T´Challa using Wakanda tecnology to cure illness or Tony Stark solving problems for example. The X-men comics don´t often tackle the idea of mutant powers being something good for society at large and I think we can see more of this. Same with the healing drugs but on this I will agree they have a political and economical end of getting enough montary resources to stop anti mutant institutions, not so much good for good itself.

However the moment humans through their own ingenuity make a base on Mercury,embrace artificial intelligence(machines) or transhumanism(OS or the children of the Vault) oh no no no , do not dare do that coz the it's bad for us...

Well even as biased as Krakoa is I don´t really fault them for disliking institutions or characters whose one of their main objectives is to make mutants dissapear or kill them all, along with sentinel factories developed for this one end. If they were truly developing tecnology for the well being of humanity at large, including mutants, like Tony, Reed do I don´t think Krakoa would have a problem with them.

I like to make the joke that sometimes it looks like the sentinels understand better than human and mutants that they are the same especies, because mastermold sure made humans into his objectives if they had even the possibility of giving birth to mutants, because mutants are humans, in the end. Now I would like to see a more nuanced take on this, like we used to, with human and mutants sharing an affinity or disliking each other on principle, I think that would be more interesting and based what happens in reality. This absolute hate doesn´t ring true even if it can be present in some circunstances.

I don't want Krakoa as a reality erased, but I feel the writing of mutants even with ambitious attempts of building a nation and culture could be better.That is why the council was a great idea for me because that way all voices of the optimists(Xavier,Jean) idealists(Exodus,Kurt) narcissists(Sinister,Emma) and supremacists (Apoc,Magneto) could bounce off each other and you have genuine attempts at the 'better angels' prevailing over the others from time to time or failing but not being entirely culpable for some of the strange decisions Krakoa is taking.

Agreed on the Krakoa front. I guess the problem is that we have not seen them actually discussing Crucible or the harder issues like Maddie´s ressurrection and this is just narrative cheating because then how can we know what arguments they handed and who said what in the discussion? because this is also a very important part of the story, we could have done with more panels like the one in which Jean proposed the "Hurt no man" law and Magneto supporting it or Exodus "Respect this sacred land" we have just not seen them make actual decisions and that hurts their characters and the story in general.

I mean in X-Men#4 (Leinil Yu 'Davos' issue)one could hardly see any difference between Apocalypse,Magneto and Xavier. They were all speaking with one voice which was just bizzare to me. Anyway I know there is attempts at shock value but in this era I find the writing and narrative choices inconsistent with most of the character histories.

I actually liked this issue but yes, I can see why fans were like wth, Hickman proposed, again, an interesting idea but the voices of the characters this issue felt off, like not quite themselves. I liked the proposition of them using humanitys "tools" the economy, politics and education, to counter anti-mutant perspectives in the world. It is an interesting proposal and not far from Charles original idea of his School being a front to show humanity how good mutants can be for society, just this time with mutants well being given a priority they didn´t have before. It´s a change from Charles original idea, definitely but I can see him taking this possition given how mutants have been treated in the mu the last 15 years.

Argh! I hate derailing the thread, but both these posts are so on the nose, particularly the bolded.

To try and get back on topic, I can suspend my belief in how characters would act to some degree but I can’t suspend it long enough or hard enough to believe that Jean and Scott are acting in character at the moment (let alone Kurt). Crucible was the straw which broke the camel’s back for me.

Agreed completely

[Rev9]

Well more than splitting from the orthodox faith, the idea of creating another religion or a sect it´s considered a schism in the catholic pov, which is what happened with Luthero. Initiatives to help the community at large on the arts, health, education, social work fronts are always welcome but if people want to do them as part of an institution representing the catholic faith, they need to have approval from its authorities. Now if we are talking about initiatives created to serve the community in general then people they can do it on their own which was Kurt´s case on Way of X imo, because he wanted to serve his society on the social/moral/ethical front or the matters of the heart as David called them and this is why I agreed with Spurrier that it was neccesary to leave clear this story was not about developing a new religion. That said I completely agree with you Spurrier didn´t really go deeply with this idea and Way of x ended being more about adventure than anything else so yes such a waste because it would have been great to see Kurts phylosophical pov.



Agreed with all this, if we were talking about Krakoa hundred of years in the future I could see it´s culture developing like this given the isolationism being developed there but this is unbelievable coming from a group of people who only a year ago used to live among the rest of the human nations and were born with their social/cultural povs. I could buy them being deppressed, self destructive and hostile because of all the times the world at large seemed to ignore initiatives developed with the idea of killing all of them but the idea of them succedenly leaving behind everything that was part of their identity in a year lacks basic logic, let alone the fact the X-men themselves were still interested in participating with the rest of the world and I don´t even see Magneto agreeging to brutalize decimated mutants given how he himself took care of the decimated mutants at Genosha and his first idea definitely was not to kill them off because they were a shame or kill himself because he no longer was a mutant and I could see even Raven, used to work for the US goverment and has lived 100 years on her own in the "human world" raising an eyebrow over mutants killing each other for sports or to prove they are worthy. Like I said, I can see Apocalypse approving this because he would see it as them needing to prove themselves but this would be complete madness to the other members of the QC, again with Sinister exception, who has never cared about mutants.

I also agree that this looked like Hickman may have been doing a critic on this particular pov but the fact he very much left basic charactherization of heroic characters out the window gives a feel of this story being very void in actual content. It proposes a lot of ideas but it leaves all of them behind and the cost to the characters personality was too high. The X-men are supposed to be heros and if Hickman wanted to tackle them in this context the least he could do was do so allowing them their proper reaction to the crucible, not just give some vague excuse of them having too many doubts to act because that never has been part of their characterization.




Agreed on the Krakoa front. I guess the problem is that we have not seen them actually discussing Crucible or the harder issues like Maddie´s ressurrection and this is just narrative cheating because then how can we know what arguments they handed and who said what in the discussion? because this is also a very important part of the story, we could have done with more panels like the one in which Jean proposed the "Hurt no man" law and Magneto supporting it or Exodus "Respect this sacred land" we have just not seen them make actual decisions and that hurts their characters and the story in general.



I actually liked this issue but yes, I can see why fans were like wth, Hickman proposed, again, an interesting idea but the voices of the characters this issue felt off, like not quite themselves. I liked the proposition of them using humanitys "tools" the economy, politics and education, to counter anti-mutant perspectives in the world. It is an interesting proposal and not far from Charles original idea of his School being a front to show humanity how good mutants can be for society, just this time with mutants well being given a priority they didn´t have before. It´s a change from Charles original idea, definitely but I can see him taking this possition given how mutants have been treated in the mu the last 15 years.

[/B]

Agreed completely

I never actually believed ,NC was starting a new religion. I mean if the faith was still theistic -borrowing elements of supreme extra terrestrial deity... I understand schism would be the appropriate word. Though with Krakoa embracing technological or omega assisted resurrections I think polytheism is what we could have at best (reverence for the 5 if it were to be inculcated as natural) otherwise for all intents and purposes at that point, if Kurt started a new faith ,he would qualify to be excommunicated as an apostate or heretic from the Catholic church(if he is a priest in this life anyway). Though as I said the thing is he didn't codify any new tenets of faith so I'm not going to throw him under the bus and by the same token if he found himself losing his Catholic faith in favour of a new one,It is a personal choice with personal consequence so that was ok too.I like you feel it would have been nice to articulate even if briefly Kurt's reconciliation of all sorts of ethical and existential dilemmas either way. It's a tall order for any writer especially if from the outset they don't want fiction to reflect the real world or the seriousness of Kurt's crisis of faith was never going to be the focus of the story. I guess it was misdirection by the writers teasing a new 'faith' which is a loaded word and the repercussions that would have on mutandom, and we get zilch.

I don't mind terra forming a planet for its own sake , mutants wanted to relocate their Arraki kin there.I have no issue with the intent, but I have an issue with the framing.Emma and other council members made it a spectacle for the whole world to see , for mutants to revel in pioneering the impossible and by extension raising the bar on civilization in general. When you add terra forming to the medicines. It is as if mutants are the arbiters of earth's achievements and human civilization or progress. Which is strange because humans(Orchis) are on Mercury and that is a problem, humans have embraced transhumanism by way of Omega sentinel/Nimrod(nascent version anyway) and the Vault ..that is also a problem, all the while Mutants have embraced genetic engineering and data storage machinery-Cerebro and Shiar crystals to transcend being mere mortals(majority of the mortal mutants anyway).Like the double standard is glaring! I get what you mean by not accepting that anti mutant enclaves will use this technology for nefarious means. However there is a deeper problem. It began with the writers, the writers for whatever reason framed human ingenuity and harnessing of technology as something evil. The Homo novissima are villains in this timeline and that makes mutants who take this fate as an absolute apocalypse,paranoid to the point of being ridiculous. Maybe I'm being a bit too critical but how far are mutants willing to take this? Does it mean anyone with artificial heart valves, cochlear implants is now a target because they are on the way to being H.Novissima? I think the premise was flawed from the beginning. An extra terrestrial invasion by the Phalanx for me is different than now making mutants a bulwark against human ingenuity. I don't think showing highly educated scientists at Orchis as primates is accidental, it is part of the narrative.

I also liked the Davos issue , and a part of me wanted a natural progression of dialogue with Xavier starting off on the right foot, talking about Krakoan embassy networks, perhaps inviting some technical teams from human nations to inspect the Krakoa flower farms and you know some sort of bridge building and goodwill, but it was mostly Magneto and Xavier going for the throat with veiled threats of how they will stoop to human level of dirty politics.Like I know politics is dirty business but even at such summits you use diplomatic language ,it's all about trade offs and mutual interests being met not arm twisting from the get go,especially not at the first summit. I just found the characterisation of Xavier in that issue way off, he needed to temper the excesses of Magneto and he didn't. Which again goes back to the writers turning mutant leadership into a monolithic collective with a singular perspective. I can understand this during a war for example the future of life 9 or from Apocalypse maybe even Magneto ,but it is hard to imagine this from the likes of Xavier,Storm and a majority of the other mainstays especially during peacetime in a fledgling nation.

[Lucyinthesky]

I never actually believed ,NC was starting a new religion. I mean if the faith was still theistic -borrowing elements of supreme extra terrestrial deity...

Me neither because Spurrier confirmed he didn´t meant for his story to be about creating a new religion and we saw NC praying with the rosary in the beggining so he didn´t seem have doubts about his faith either, he just didn´t know how to approach Krakoa particular situation. NC was just looking for a way in which Krakoa could find it´s heart, a structure that would give them a moral sense, of belonging and an objective bigger than themselves or else suffer self-destruction as a society, it was interesting how Spurrier talked about it, of having NC talk with different mutants and people of different faiths of Krakoa coming to a solution like Kitty or Dust but in the end it was just wasted potential as he didn´t quite get to this idea.

I understand schism would be the appropriate word. Though with Krakoa embracing technological or omega assisted resurrections I think polytheism is what we could have at best (reverence for the 5 if it were to be inculcated as natural) otherwise for all intents and purposes at that point, if Kurt started a new faith ,he would qualify to be excommunicated as an apostate or heretic from the Catholic church(if he is a priest in this life anyway)

Well Kurt is not a Priest so yes him stopping being catholic would not have the same repercutions as a Priest doing it, because this is considered a matter of individual conscience of each person but I think this is essentially different to the idea of "creating a new religion"like we are talking about completely different concepts.

On Krakoa, we would be talking about polytheism if mutants actually believed in different gods but they didn´t, they didn´t seem to believe in anything as a culture, except for the individuals who had a particular belief of that grew up as part of that culture, like Kitty, Kurt, Dust, Magneto, etc. The problem of Krakoa is that Hickman and Spurrier made it seem like they wanted to rebuilt everyting using only mutant concepts but the problem is that they didn´t approach the situation realistically, a year is not enough for a group of people to forget about their identity and cultural links and crucible was not a particular cultural concept of mutants, there was a void that needed to be tackled which NC seemed to be interested in doing.

Though as I said the thing is he didn't codify any new tenets of faith so I'm not going to throw him under the bus and by the same token if he found himself losing his Catholic faith in favour of a new one,It is a personal choice with personal consequence so that was ok too.

I agree it´s a personal choice for everyone but this Kurt in canon has gone to heaven and come back, he lives in a context when there´s a "One above all" idea on a cosmic sense, along with characters who don´t hold any particular faith in particular, or characters that come back from death every other tuesday so I don´t think he was in a crisis of faitho, it was more a matter of Krakoa needing to have a structure to keep them from self destruction, made it quicker indirectly by Onslaught presence.

I like you feel it would have been nice to articulate even if briefly Kurt's reconciliation of all sorts of ethical and existential dilemmas either way. It's a tall order for any writer especially if from the outset they don't want fiction to reflect the real world or the seriousness of Kurt's crisis of faith was never going to be the focus of the story. I guess it was misdirection by the writers teasing a new 'faith' which is a loaded word and the repercussions that would have on mutandom, and we get zilch.

Oh I didn´t expect Simon to go deeply into it and given how much trouble he had articulating NC as a person of faith who lives on a super hero envoirment I think it was for the better he focused on the adventure part of the story and yes the idea of creating a new faith or religion is a loaded word but I don´t think Hickman quite realized it at first.

I don't mind terra forming a planet for its own sake , mutants wanted to relocate their Arraki kin there.I have no issue with the intent, but I have an issue with the framing.Emma and other council members made it a spectacle for the whole world to see , for mutants to revel in pioneering the impossible and by extension raising the bar on civilization in general. When you add terra forming to the medicines. It is as if mutants are the arbiters of earth's achievements and human civilization or progress. Which is strange because humans(Orchis) are on Mercury and that is a problem, humans have embraced transhumanism by way of Omega sentinel/Nimrod(nascent version anyway) and the Vault ..that is also a problem, all the while Mutants have embraced genetic engineering and data storage machinery-Cerebro and Shiar crystals to transcend being mere mortals(majority of the mortal mutants anyway).

Well I guess to understand this we need to go back to HoX/PoX in there it looked like humans changed themselves so much they stopped being biological at all, which made it more easier for the Phalanx to absorb them, which happened in the end but given how the phalanx themselves are considered as a plague by the main species in the universe, the Shiar had not option but to take over the solar system and end the phalanx influence from spreading further, a very sad end for humanity in general imo because it could have been avoided if the mutant and human war never happened and they had learned to coexist, which was the main objective of Moira, Charles and Erik in the beggining of the story, to stop the war from beggining at all. This story suggested Moira´s main objective is to save humanity and mutants from ending this way, now with Inferno clearly changing everything, I don´t know if this will still be her main motivation.

Now talking about the X-men themselves, I think the problem is not the use of tecnology itself but what you do with that tecnology, because while science and tecnology are neutral tools for human beings, human people usually have an intention on their actions when they are using it and on X-men, since Days of future past, this can be a good thing that could serve and preserve mankind or a bad thing that could create a distopy for mutants and humans in general, if left them to decide everything over human beings themselves. I see this a similar criticism like I, Robot for example. Which is what happened on DoFP and HoX/PoX. So I could see Hickman keeping this pov but I will know for sure until Inferno is done.

Like the double standard is glaring! I get what you mean by not accepting that anti mutant enclaves will use this technology for nefarious means. However there is a deeper problem. It began with the writers, the writers for whatever reason framed human ingenuity and harnessing of technology as something evil. The Homo novissima are villains in this timeline and that makes mutants who take this fate as an absolute apocalypse,paranoid to the point of being ridiculous. Maybe I'm being a bit too critical but how far are mutants willing to take this? Does it mean anyone with artificial heart valves, cochlear implants is now a target because they are on the way to being H.Novissima? I think the premise was flawed from the beginning. An extra terrestrial invasion by the Phalanx for me is different than now making mutants a bulwark against human ingenuity. I don't think showing highly educated scientists at Orchis as primates is accidental, it is part of the narrative.

Yes I think considering the artificial heart valves is going too far, the X-men on Krakoa seem to just be worried about Orchis particular actions when it comes to their intentions of extinguishing mutant life, not what hospitals, schools, Reed or Tony do to make life better for everyone else. Even more, they seem to be all about introducing biological development on one´s own body over using tecnological parts and even on real world this is something that´s been happening, the search for a cure to illness by developing an investigation on the biological sense. I can see part of the comics introducing this idea.

That said, I agree with you that the narrative itself lacks nuance because in the past we always had a counterpoint to the main arguments, like are there scientist focused on ending mutants? Yes but we also have others who dislike the idea, oppose it openly, have been allies of the X-men and mutants for years or used to think this way but changed their pov like Kavita Rao or Moira Mctaggart herself. Is tecnology something to be feared or something to be used? according to X-men comics both because the main difference was not the use of tecnology itself but the intention behind it´s use. I believe Hickman choosing to make a matter that used to be more complex in the story, more simple and reductionist has not helped the narrative and we need to get back to it.

[Lucyinthesky]

I also liked the Davos issue , and a part of me wanted a natural progression of dialogue with Xavier starting off on the right foot, talking about Krakoan embassy networks, perhaps inviting some technical teams from human nations to inspect the Krakoa flower farms and you know some sort of bridge building and goodwill, but it was mostly Magneto and Xavier going for the throat with veiled threats of how they will stoop to human level of dirty politics.Like I know politics is dirty business but even at such summits you use diplomatic language ,it's all about trade offs and mutual interests being met not arm twisting from the get go,especially not at the first summit. I just found the characterisation of Xavier in that issue way off, he needed to temper the excesses of Magneto and he didn't. Which again goes back to the writers turning mutant leadership into a monolithic collective with a singular perspective. I can understand this during a war for example the future of life 9 or from Apocalypse maybe even Magneto ,but it is hard to imagine this from the likes of Xavier,Storm and a majority of the other mainstays especially during peacetime in a fledgling nation.

There´s a saying in diplomacy that you either are invited to the dinner or else you are the dinner. It´s true diplomacy was created to develop good relations among nations but the problem, even in the real world, is that this often is particulary hard, because you have strong political and economic interests behind every diplomatic meeting. Now I don´t think Hickman´s pretended to go deeply into actual diplomatic issues and I agree with you they could have said their pov in a more polite way, in fact I could use images of Charles and Magneto themselves being way more diplomatic and playing well the interaction between nations which they sorely lacked on this issue. Like honestly if Charles was writting on this era with the arguments he used on the 90´s and Magneto as he was by Christopher Priest, I would be so happy. So this brings me back to the problem of characterization, this era has great ideas but lacks the proper characterization to support them.




That said, I personally don´t think using one own´s resources on the economic or political front to help their own people can be really considered "dirty politics" I would just said "Politics", like that´s what every other nation does on a daily basis and for the same reason. There´s nothing wrong to want to have a say in the international, political or economic system imo. Now how Krakoa is going around executing this intention, I would say it´s a dissaster, they have not been able to truly comunicate with other countries and instead have been chasing off the few allies they had in the beggining, like Wakanda or Atlantis and the began on bad terms with Russia and the US. So imo if the writers intention was to make the characters do one dumb move after another, they are actually writting that well, if their intention was to show them building bridges, then it´s a dissaster.

This is a very interesting subject, sorry for the large comment, I was not able to write it in one message.

[Rev9]

There´s a saying in diplomacy that you either are invited to the dinner or else you are the dinner. It´s true diplomacy was created to develop good relations among nations but the problem, even in the real world, is that this often is particulary hard, because you have strong political and economic interests behind every diplomatic meeting. Now I don´t think Hickman´s pretended to go deeply into actual diplomatic issues and I agree with you they could have said their pov in a more polite way, in fact I could use images of Charles and Magneto themselves being way more diplomatic and playing well the interaction between nations which they sorely lacked on this issue. Like honestly if Charles was writting on this era with the arguments he used on the 90´s and Magneto as he was by Christopher Priest, I would be so happy. So this brings me back to the problem of characterization, this era has great ideas but lacks the proper characterization to support them.




That said, I personally don´t think using one own´s resources on the economic or political front to help their own people can be really considered "dirty politics" I would just said "Politics", like that´s what every other nation does on a daily basis and for the same reason. There´s nothing wrong to want to have a say in the international, political or economic system imo. Now how Krakoa is going around executing this intention, I would say it´s a dissaster, they have not been able to truly comunicate with other countries and instead have been chasing off the few allies they had in the beggining, like Wakanda or Atlantis and the began on bad terms with Russia and the US. So imo if the writers intention was to make the characters do one dumb move after another, they are actually writting that well, if their intention was to show them building bridges, then it´s a dissaster.

This is a very interesting subject, sorry for the large comment, I was not able to write it in one message.

I agree the science angle has been a bit too pessimistic from the outset. Which is why science fiction is such an interesting genre anyway.It's nothing new to me, a fan of sci fi or dystopian narratives.I just think the writers have driven themselves into a corner on the one end you have humanity being framed as villains for pursuing a technological 'arms race' or parity with mutantdom and on the other you have mutants themselves on the brink of some serious ecological/biological and technological catastrophies ..the telefloronics/weird sea monster things..whatever the hell is happening to Black Tom..Onslaught through their protocols.So it's not like mutants have an impeccable record either. I would rather the pivot was directed at Krakoa as a sentient island that was just like the in the Matrix for all its regenerating,life restoring power(instead of the five) was also siphoning mutant life force.That way we could have a normal and heavy burden of choice between mutants who are so enticed by the prospect of immortality that they are willing to be 'batteries' for the island just to get the win and those that are willing to walk away and live free not beholden to some entity for a life that can just as easily be snuffed out by it.To me such narration would be in keeping with mutants historic struggle for freedom from either dystopian fate or any sort of oppressive power. I feel like now there is just no moral high ground.After all the medicines to the humans is leverage and geopolitics. With the likes of Emma and Shaw running the supplies, it is plainly obvious that manipulation of humanity is the name of the game. I mean it is the way the world works anyway so I'm not too shocked and as you rightly say 'There´s nothing wrong to want to have a say in the international, political or economic system' .I just think the leadership of Krakoa should be actually perceptive of the optics and know that although a time may come for digging in their heels or brinkmanship ,maybe even threats..you don't go to those extremes from the outset.From the very beginning I don't think for example we needed to have Emma push the UN delegates to vote against their will.I mean basically Krakoa instead of relying on a nation majority vote which is how UN votes work not SC votes but GA votes and I'm sure a GA vote could easily pass without resorting to telepathy(or maybe I'm too optimistic) , I mean it doesn't bother Charles of all people that Krakoa got statehood through
manipulation and not free human choice? No one says Krakoa can't have states opposed to it but to say the whole world is opposed to it being a nation is just too contrived imo.If I was writing I'd never do that,especially when already the medicines are plausible enough leverage to get the vote without requiring mental manipulation.Then you have Magneto telling humans visiting Krakoa they have new gods and Storm telling Cyke that resorting to Orchis methods is a sign of a 'conquered' people. I don't know with this hubris and arrogance the mutants seem to have 'crossed the Rubicon'. Which has me asking is this what getting recognition as a state or culture with that much power and leverage leads to?

[From The Shadows]

[Grinning Soul]

I'll reply to all of you next week, I just saw this and thought I should share it here too (in case you haven't seen the other thread):



I know it's just a cover, but look: they're fighting holding hands! Effing finally!



If only they could do that in the comics, while coordinating their power usage in the epic way those two veteran combatants and long-time team mates/friends/lovers/spouses/psychi-rapport-buddies should be able to do.... Oh, be still my heart.

[MarvelMaster616]

I'll reply to all of you next week, I just saw this and thought I should share it here too (in case you haven't seen the other thread):



I know it's just a cover, but look: they're fighting holding hands! Effing finally!



If only they could do that in the comics, while coordinating their power usage in the epic way those two veteran combatants and long-time team mates/friends/lovers/spouses/psychi-rapport-buddies should be able to do.... Oh, be still my heart.

Beautiful! A couple that holds hands while kicking ass is a strong couple, indeed.

[From The Shadows]

The new stuff, its just... it seems like nonsense. What are they doing?

Things have changed a lot since here. I prefer them friends now. Just working together. Oh well...

[Lucyinthesky]

I agree the science angle has been a bit too pessimistic from the outset. Which is why science fiction is such an interesting genre anyway.It's nothing new to me, a fan of sci fi or dystopian narratives.I just think the writers have driven themselves into a corner on the one end you have humanity being framed as villains for pursuing a technological 'arms race' or parity with mutantdom and on the other you have mutants themselves on the brink of some serious ecological/biological and technological catastrophies ..the telefloronics/weird sea monster things..whatever the hell is happening to Black Tom..Onslaught through their protocols.So it's not like mutants have an impeccable record either. I would rather the pivot was directed at Krakoa as a sentient island that was just like the in the Matrix for all its regenerating,life restoring power(instead of the five) was also siphoning mutant life force.That way we could have a normal and heavy burden of choice between mutants who are so enticed by the prospect of immortality that they are willing to be 'batteries' for the island just to get the win and those that are willing to walk away and live free not beholden to some entity for a life that can just as easily be snuffed out by it.To me such narration would be in keeping with mutants historic struggle for freedom from either dystopian fate or any sort of oppressive power.

Yes Soul and I have discussed this before, Hickman proposed an interesting take on the human/mutant problem but also added OCC elements to the X-men usual way of dealing with events and has forgottem their main identity is that of heros, not to say it´s hard to see either the whole human world as villains and the whole mutant world as victims, this type of lack of nuance is somehting that has become more a burden than something positive to the narrative because the characters who used to be like whole persons, with motivations, emotions, history and povs seems to just be forced into the best position for the plot but as characters they look without any kind of nuance they used to have and this happens to both the mutants and human characters. So I would say the main problem of this era has been the characterization has not been on par with the plot and this makes it hard to believe the characters would make this same choices and the lack of middle points or different perspectives affects negatively the story.

That said, I would not say they lack a "high ground" because I don´t think wanting to have a place to enjoy life and have a family is wrong, especially after the persecution they have endured on canon but they feel like they abandoned their care for the rest of the world as if only bad things could come from it and that´s just rigns false to who those characters are because their relationship to the rest of the world used to be more complex than this.

Fallen Angels had the right idea with them wanting to still bring a positive impact in the whole at large and help the world without condition but sadly this didn´t quite develop even if it handed Pyslocke a good motivation after she was separated from Betsy.

I feel like now there is just no moral high ground.After all the medicines to the humans is leverage and geopolitics. With the likes of Emma and Shaw running the supplies, it is plainly obvious that manipulation of humanity is the name of the game. I mean it is the way the world works anyway so I'm not too shocked and as you rightly say 'There´s nothing wrong to want to have a say in the international, political or economic system' .I just think the leadership of Krakoa should be actually perceptive of the optics and know that although a time may come for digging in their heels or brinkmanship ,maybe even threats..you don't go to those extremes from the outset.

Agreed I guess I would just like to see more than just Emma, Shaw or Charles playing a big hand on this area of Krakoa, because this pov makes them look like their perspective is the only one being represented or the one that matters and as I already said, having a counter point and a different way of approaching this same issue is part of the DNA of X-men stories and it should be reflected here as well. This is why I liked some stories in which they send the medicine to people that needed it on Wolverine title and some new mutant issues and I also enjoyed seeing Masque actually help for once in a hospital with his power so there definitely is a perspective outside bussined going on but it has not been given much development and so the Hellfire Club elements and interests are the ones being represented by the main narrative, once again limiting the story to just their pov.

From the very beginning I don't think for example we needed to have Emma push the UN delegates to vote against their will.I mean basically Krakoa instead of relying on a nation majority vote which is how UN votes work not SC votes but GA votes and I'm sure a GA vote could easily pass without resorting to telepathy(or maybe I'm too optimistic) , I mean it doesn't bother Charles of all people that Krakoa got statehood through
manipulation and not free human choice? No one says Krakoa can't have states opposed to it but to say the whole world is opposed to it being a nation is just too contrived imo.If I was writing I'd never do that,especially when already the medicines are plausible enough leverage to get the vote without requiring mental manipulation.

Agreed, I didin´t like this scene either for the same reason, I guess writers were not aware you don´t need the entire UN to accept you as a state to become a part of them and that you can be considered a country as long as you have a defined territory, population and capacity to enter into relations with other states, this is not a hard requeriment to make given there are real wold countries without much population or territory that are recognized by the UN and the fact they put in red the countries that rejected the medicine just made them look extremely biased like, there are just very different reasons for a certain country to be ok with accepting Krakoa as a state but not getting into trade with them. There´s something like the own interest for that country and it should not be taken as a negative view of Krakoa, they should be allowed their own reasons as well, once again lack of nuance hurts the story.

In fact this scene made me think Hickman was going to have Krakoa do a whole hel turn but given inferno has gone completely left I am not sure anymore what their deal is.

Then you have Magneto telling humans visiting Krakoa they have new gods

Those were ambassadors of the US, Rusia and China not humans doing tourism and one of them was an agent send to kill Xavier, who was supposed to meet them there it looks like they discovered it so Magneto went there instead of Charles, so I didn´t see his reaction extreme here, given the circunstances. Still I deeply disliked Hickman having Magneto say "You have new Gods now" I get he was being sarcastic but he said this on Israel of all places and given he´s Jewish, used to live there after the war and is still culturally Jewish, it looked very wrong, as if he was abandoning his jewish identity in favor of his mutant one, while in the past he keep both of them as part of his character, so once again, characterization and the past of the character is written off in favor a supericial take on the story for a scene that didn´t matter much after it was done.

Storm telling Cyke that resorting to Orchis methods is a sign of a 'conquered' people. I don't know with this hubris and arrogance the mutants seem to have 'crossed the Rubicon'. Which has me asking is this what getting recognition as a state or culture with that much power and leverage leads to?

Agreed completely, like I am not agaisnt them having their own place and country, in fact this pov is something I always thought made sense for Magneto but I could do without all this hubris and arrogance. At first I thought Hickman wanted to make them villains but no, it seems like this is the writers idea of the characters building a country, which I disagree with because they are just not acting like themselves, Ororo and Scott don´t read this way. it´s like they are completely different characters. In fact this is why Soul and I thought Onslaught and the ressurrection process was going to have a bigger impact than the one it had and now I guess we just want to advance past this point.

And it also has the additional problem of sending the indirect message that "Oppressed people should not have the power to have their own say in the system, because they can just be as bad to those that oppressed them before or worse", bassically justifiying oppresion in general, which I am like bs, this is not how things work and everybody should get the opportunity to act on their own well being when they are being unfairly treated.

Rev9 Your inbox seems to be full so I am not sure you got my message. Still I wanted to thank you, as I told Soul, it´s nice to have this space.

[Lucyinthesky]

Some art for Jean and Scott

[Grinning Soul]

Don´t worry about it, I also want to apoligize in advance, had the flu these last few days but I feel better now, hope you also feel better. Sends lots of hugs to Soul

I hope you’re feeling fully recovered now.

I’ve been very stressed because of people being jerks and bureaucracy. I haven’t had time or emotional energy to properly grief...

Yes I agree Jean character suffered from Damsel in distress symdrome here but on the other hand, their take on Phoenix/Dark Phoenix saga was the best I have ever seen on movie or cartoons, it was very balanced and displayed so well how heroic, loving and powerful Jean really was, it was my favorite saga of the cartoon.

Exactly! The reason TAS' Phoenix/Dark Phoenix saga was so good was because they did two things right:

1) They established Jean as a character who loved and was loved by the other X-Men.
2) They kept the story super close to the source.

That’s why it works. And since this is the place for the gushing:



You know… Marvel just don’t get it, right? You can’t get any two characters and make this work. It takes two characters who are very special by themselves and match this well together. Epic love is a recipe that requires very rare ingredients, that’s why it’s such a rare treat.

And what does Marvel do? Instead of understanding what they have in their hands and allowing this couple to occupy the place of iconic-ness it deserves amongst all the other great couple of literature (which again: are ridiculously rare), they try to dirty, cheapen and sabotage this relationship at every turn.

I’ll never understand this self-destructive behaviour of their part.

As for Jean’s character in TAS, her power levels are laughable for reasons I don’t really get. And worse: she’s such an incompetent fighter. Some people still think of her like that because of the cartoon!

But other aspects of her personality were portrayed well, for instance how caring and compassionate she is. So I can’t really completely hate the depiction of character, you know?

Yes his personality very much helps his character be more impressive, I personally loved how he knew what to say to each villain to get them interested in "saving the world" and how this meant he knew enough about them to be sure of what motivated them personally and how he felt offended on their behald because the heros didn´t recognize they were helping them. Magneto is often despicted as a cold person and is true but at the same time, he gets attached quickly to his teams.

When Mags is well-written, he steals *every* scene. The problem is that hasn’t been well written lately.

If this was nowadays, people would be throwing a hissy-fit because he’s touching the clothes of a teenager girl - such a perv!

Meanwhile, they have no trouble with the suggestion of another teenager girl (or a child) being raped, impregnated, forced to have the baby and then forced to forget about it.

The world for you, ladies and gentlemen.

Yes this era of him being their headmaster helped to make magneto human again, by not being perfect automatically at what he did and having to ask for help to Moira, Emma and even the Hellfire Club sometimes, just to keep his students together. It just hearwarming seeing him try to do the best for them even if he himself lacked the emotional reasources to deal with their crisis given his own traumas, it was so good to see him try anyway and it helped his character grow so much, this is why this era has not been forgotten and it´s remembered warmly by magento fans, even if marvel often acts as if it didn´t happen.

Lack of good editorial allows writers to depict characters the way they see fit, even if it breaks the internal logic of the character. They sometimes stain the character for the sake of telling a mediocre - at best - story. It doesn’t seem very smart in the long run, but well… those people don’t seem to understand that concept of considering the effects of their story in the long run.

That’s why I mean when I say they’re unprofessional and they don’t really love the medium. Someone who loves comic books should understand that those toys aren’t yours. You play with them, but you don’t get to break them or deface them to the point they’re unrecognisable.

I also agree with you about Jean, I hoped she could be challenged in a similar way by being on X-force but you are right the story wasn´t made for that and Percy really got on my nerves for written her as just one of Logan´s girlfriends, it was a waste of her character there even if I liked some panels of her time there.

The reason people don’t see she was there to be the girlfriend is that Percy didn’t write her as TAS Jean: tripping on a wire and falling on her face. He made her say some edgy lines and have some power feats. That’s all it takes to make people disregard the rest.

At the same time, people who hate Scott will keep insisting she’s just his wife whenever they’re in the same book, no matter how much she’s shining and he’s being incompetently hugged by a gorilla, while making a stupid joke instead of ricochetting his beam, which is something he seems to have forgotten how to do.

So really: they should just write Scott and Jean as the couple they used to be and let haters hate.

We can totally, the artist really wanted his cape to look spectacular for the meeting and Victor has to deal with second place, that´s what he gets for doing a projection of himself instead of going personally to the meeting :P imo what Paris and Sinister don´t get about capes is that they can be spectacular and at the same time, very simple.

Victor even used his wind machine but he didn’t take 1st place. :P

Lol I don´t know, that seems more like Bei and Doug style, not Magnus and Isca XD. I personally liked the possibility of them being together because she challenged him and was not afraid of his "Darkside" in fact she can be even more extreme than him but I agree they may have too many cultural differences.

I don’t know. I think Bei is the kind of gal who would want to be carried. Isca on the other hand… :P

I have a problem in looking for a partner for him because the ones I like are already married, like Ororo and Medusa or dead like Gabrielle Haller. In general I think he needs someone capable of challenging him on her own but also is not afraid of his darker side while being able of offering a counterpoint to his povs. So far not a lot of MU character have those characteristics so my only hope is that in the future they write him someone with those attributes. I did´t like Briar because she went too much into the toxic side.

I agree. It’s hard to find a partner for Mags. Especially if we’re thinking of a long-term relationship.

As for Briar… given their history, if would be hard not to write their relationship as toxic in some way. While I have no problem with the presence of toxic and/or dysfunctional relationships in fiction, I do have a major problem when the writer doesn’t portray it for what it is.

I can see it’s actually harmful for the people who consume the story, especially if they’re younger.

Have such relationships in the narratives by all means, but call a spade a spade and show the bad side and the psychological damage they inflict.

Agreed but sadly sometimes they get the idea that their idea of the character is the correct one or simply use the opportunity to show off why they disliked the character and why everyone else should do so too, it´s not very proffesional but sadly is something that happens. On the good side, Morrison version was so extreme that even marvel had to admit they went too far and have been a little more careful lately, of course with its ups and downs but every character has those, even the ones with a long time solo title like spidey.

Again: that’s why you need a good editor. A good editor should not allow it to happen.

Don’t get me started on Morrison's run…

Ok I see your point, on the good side, there were less data pages on inferno #2 so that´s something. :P

1 data page less than Inferno #1. Wo-hoo!

I was thinking for like Mags being annoyed at being interruped and Charles at first not realising that´s what was happening, then teasing him a little bit about it like on the image you shown while being all: But Erik, you know Earth comes first :P

Put the little magnet down, Erik. You can play with it after the planet is safe. :P

Take your mind out of the gutter, Lucy. I meant this:



Obviously! :P

Yes in her diaries she said she had "broken" Charles without meaning too and I guess the idea was that she had something to do with him finally having a mental breakdown and letting out Onslaught but I agree that´s probably too much already.

Didn’t she say she *had* to break him? I don’t have the energy to look for it. At this point, I don’t care enough to check.

But I don’t think she meant she broke his mental health, but more his spirit, his hope for a future where co-existence could be achieved harmoniously, instead of imposed.

[Grinning Soul]

Lol he told me if I didn´t free him he was going to call you, so : Gives Charlie back :P

CHUCKles! Come with momma. I’ll keep you safe. Lucy will behave now. :P

Get off this this silly black jumpsuit and lose the helmet. Your Captain Picard uniform is waiting for you. Jump into it so we can go “engage” in some final-frontier nerdy adventure!

Yeah, I’m going to stop myself now before I make an even more terrible joke. :P

If Inferno indeed has a mission of them both going agaist Orchis we might as well admit our culpability for melting antartica. Like that would be so awesome, it would bring me right back to that time they worked togeter on TAS to stop the sentinels.

What are the chances, though, when poor Charles can’t deal with a z-lister teenage mutant? *Sigh*

Lol He knew what he was getting himself into and now it´s too late, he has to play :P it´s such a fun game but people outside comics may see us rare for playing it.

**uck, marry, kill is not a game that belongs to either of our cultures, but I think it has potential to be really cool because both the questions and the answers can be so tricky and intelligent.

Anyway, when it comes to my partner, yes, I didn’t hide the fact I was crazy from the moment we met, so he can’t complain he didn’t know what he was getting himself into indeed. He’s crazy too, in a different way. And honestly? If he was too “normal” I probably wouldn’t have looked at him twice. :D

Given Charles owns almost all of Krakoa bussines, you could end with your own part of the island to burn at your pleasure. See, it was a good idea for me to take them :p

All right. So let me get that prenup ready (I’ll add more than 50% in case of betrayal if it’s possible) before you steal him. But you don’t get the Captain Picard suit! I’m keeping that one.:P

And be advised: if you try to get the suit, I’ll steal Mag’s capes! :P

I think it can be improved but I also agree, I am ready for the next stage now.

Sing with Adele and me: “Let it burn!” :P

Yes the pacing is bad, sometimes they tell to little story in two issues and sometimes too much story in the last issue. I think there´s a possibility the market has something do do with it, they want to tell the story on short issues but it takes effort to properly close up the story.

I think they "decompress" a bad premise too much and people aren’t invested on those characters to begin with. Then the sales plummet and the book is to be cancelled and they have to deal with all the uninteresting plots they were introducing too fast. I think X-Factor is the perfect example of it. But if you need an even more obvious example look no further than X-Corp, where they took issues to simply form the god-damn board!

I can’t, Lucy…. I just can’t… How can they have thought that a book about a corporation shouldn't *start* without its board already formed? Did they really think this was an interesting plot for a *super hero comic book*? One that should last issues and issues? I can’t Lucy!!!

I was reading it because I love Warren, but my god, that thing was a pain.

I think we all do this sometimes, there´s no reason to enter into unending disuccusions in which everybody will just get angry and without any agreetment.

You and I (and people like us) don’t see a reason to do it. But some people actually like to fight.

I realised when a person is a hater of the character, they’ll hate the character and insist on seeing them through the most negative lens possible, no matter what you say. I also realise some people love to twist what you’re saying because that’s how they win arguments or they get too emotional to the point they don’t read what you’re actually saying anymore or have their opinions about you (even though they don’t know you) colouring how they read what you’re saying…. when I’m faced with any of those cases - and others - it’s just pointless.

I’m not being paid to interact with those people. I’m not contractually obliged to do so either. So I just won’t. Talking about comics is a hobby to me and, as such, it should be fun.

Agreed lest just hope he gets back to himself and no more intervention is neccesary. I personally think Duggan can do good for him but for some reason his story on X-men has been more about one-shots than advancing the story. I wish we could see the Duggan from Uncanny Avengers of some years back but as I said, he probably is waiting for Inferno to end before advancing.

What would you like to see Duggan do with Scott on X-men?

Write him as the Scott Summers I’ve loved for most of my life? That would be enough for me.

But ideally, Scott would go through a deeper soul-searching. I think the whole Utopia era was wasted with how AvX played out. Those 10+ years of a slow slippery slope of “the end justifies the means” and all the psychological implications of what lead him to it was just… thrown away. It was supposed to be epic and cathartic, but his “hero journey” was abruptly cut short and then ignored. And a part of me will always be sad about what could have been. Not only because of Scott Summers himself but also for what it would mean to comic books as a medium: you rarely get the opportunity to tell a story arc that spans for over a decade…

Which is another reason why I’d love to have a book for just Scott and Jean. Both of them, individually and as a couple, require more attention than what they can and should have in a group book.

I don’t think any of the current writers have the sensibility to write this story, though, so I’d settle to just having a good portrayal of both characters, really, that respected their continuity and internal logic.

I hope not, them working their issues out would be awesome to see. I have been waiting for this since Jean and he came back to life.

Yeah, me too. But I really don’t think we’ll get it until some writer decides to break them apart.

And this is the kind of thing that Marvel should know *not* to do. A couple like them is a rare jewel. Having two characters of equal protagonism, equal gravitas in the mythos, equal degrees of heroism, with powers and personalities that match, and a dynamic that is complex enough to be compelling and interesting (meaning, they’re perfect for each other but their relationship isn’t perfect) and enough shared history in which both characters and the relationship developed… this is not something that is easily fabricated and it’s not something that becomes meaningful in a couple of years.

It literally takes decades. And it’s precious.

Why would anyone throw it away? It’s not going to benefit the franchise. It’s not going to benefit the stories. It’s not going to benefit either of the characters.

So why???

I agree it´s convenient but we really don´t know much about Brand herself do we? I could buy her having a main idea of what she wants to do and using whateever means she has to get it. That said, she probably is getting counsel on her knowledge of cosmic entitities from somewhere else.

And if she is getting this kind of information from someone in a position to have this knowledge… how is that not convenient?

I don’t know, Lucy. I’ve reached my saturation point when it comes to things that are convinient in this Krakoa era. And that makes me really intolerant to it nowadays. I can’t help it. *shrug*

Agreed they need to calm down on the cape front :)

I think they can be as fab as they want with their capes. But they also have to bow down to the master! :P

Lol and my Dormammu powered armor. I honestly think he believed Mags was out of the bussines of earth conquering or just too deppressed to keep going so this totally got him by surprise and he hates being taken by surprise. On the other hand, I think he likes the idea of a new conflict between them, he seemed to enjoy their duels over earth without really getting too personal, it´s almost like a pact between gentlemen for them.

Which is another cool dynamic that we don’t see very often. Let’s hope Mags will rejoin the S.W.O.R.D. cast.

I think it suits her and it´s nice to see her character being developed, especially since Mike Carey started with it, no one expected it to go beyond his run. It´s good to see we still can see character development for not so well known characters.

I don’t know. I don’t see any character development there. I see a character being written out of character for no reason. But, like I said, I don’t care enough to be upset about it.

Oh, I totally agree with you on this, Disnoy decided to end the show just because they could and didn´t like another to develop them, not because they had a bigger plan for the characters or the actors who area actually quite good and that definitely sucks.

They wanted people to come to their stream service for everything Marvel superheroes. But guess what? I’m not.

And I know I’m just one and I make no difference. But I can only answer for myself and I’m still not budging on that.

Yes and it´s just a waste of her character, Jean is not someone who does whatever her "boyfriend" ask of her

Tell that to everyone who thinks she was just a girlfriend/wife to Cyclops (and that’s why, amongst other things, they got married and *she* proposed -- obviously). Really. Those people don’t read the same comics or never bothered to actually reading them. And some of those same people *actually* liked her in X-Force. I can’t!

[Grinning Soul]

and she would not see what Hank was doing without alerting the QC or doing something herself.

It became clear by issue #3 that the X-Force was in the business of “deniable operations” when both Erik and Charles pretty much said that *to* the team. So if Jean had any illusions that things would be different, those illusions should have been broken completely.

Lucy… I should send you my full issue-by-issue rant about Jean’s part in X-Force. It’s too much to unpack here.

It´s just a mess so it´s good she´s not really part of the team anymore. Of course we don´t know how Percy will tackle her on 10 lives of wolverine, hopefully she will be more than a girlfriend there.

Yes. It’s a matter of lesser evil at this point. She was horribly portrayed and the way she left was horrible, but at least she’s out.

If it was up to me, Jean wouldn’t appear in that event at all. I hope she’s there strictly in the capacity of a telepath who can use Cerebro… But what are the chances?

Oh, my poor girl…

Would love to see what Carey can do with the characters as they are now.

I don’t know. I’ve been so burnt before I’m afraid of whatever writer. It got to a point that if they’re not breaking my favourites, I’m happy. I just want them to survive as the characters they are, hoping better times will come.

I think some would like Krakoa and others would like to do their own thing which would be quite in character for them and my guess is that we are seeing the beggining of it.

I hope so. Though I think Krakoa must be actively opposed on some fronts by mutant heroes.

I don’t think I’ll still be around to see it if it ever gets to that point.

Even the rationalization for crucible never made sense to me so I am willing to forget about it as if it was a fever dream.

Again: it’s a matter of convenience and timing.

Something like that is too brutal, too fast, too public for everyone to be so readily accepting it. One or two elements like this would be one thing, but we’re being asked to just accept too much at once.

Most of those characters lived most of their lives in human societies. You don’t break apart from that in that extent that quickly. Not while those structures still exists just outside your little island.

It’s just not believable if you think about it for 1 second.

and Kurt calling himself a "priest" in this context doesn´t make sense, in the first place because catholic Priests don´t go around creating new "religions", even Spurrier understood this and that´s why we saw Kurt denying over and over again on Way of X that this was not a new "religion",

Agreed. But that was Hickman’s thinking: a new culture needs a new religion and Kurt is the religious X-Men so he should do it.

That’s the depth of the character-driven considerations of this era. And Kurt is, unfortunately, a great example of how careless they are.

Spurrier, at least, saw that. But then his execution was… *sigh*… that.

in the second place Kurt never quite became an actual priest so him acting as if he was is a disservice to his character because he would be lying about something deeply important to him,

EFFING, YES!

Look, I was raised as a Catholic and I took it so seriously that when it came the time to take the sacrament of the “confirmation” I decided not to, even though my friends were going to and the whole preparation for it was supposed to be really fun.

But I gave the religion a serious look and I realised I disagreed too much with it to take that step that was so important and meaningful.

So for Kurt, who is a better person and Catholic than I ever was, to be going around and calling himself a priest is just… It’s effing unthinkable!

he´s a catholic lay man and as such, what he usually would do, as part of a goverment, is to try to make laws that serve the well being of the community and in the case of Crucible ask if it was actually neccesary or not and offer an alternative because it was just plain wrong to victimize people already suffering for their loss of their powers.

Yes. And we had to see him and Jean opposing it vehemently and quitting the council as a response if they were outvoted

If death is the only way to restore the powers of those mutants, then it should be solemn and dignified and painless. And most importantly: it should be private. Not violent and glorified, exploited as a means to unite a nation. It should be respected and deeply personal. Not an effing spectacle.

What is wrong with those people that they would even consider it let alone implement it???

It’s the kind of thing that should have made any decent person walk away from that island.

In short I can buy apocalypse suggesting the idea but it was character assesination of almost every other character on the QC not called Sinister the fact they didn´t even try to stop it as the madness it was but we are supposed to buy the characters having "doubts" which is just like, nope, they would not have doubts about it being wrong.

A million times yes!

It’s so wrong your stomach should be having a respose to the thought, let alone witnessing the actual thing. Seeing Kurt and Scott casually talking about it as they walk to go watch it….

And that’s the issue Hickman chose to highlight in his interview???

Burn Krakoa down, I say. That thing is rotten to the core. There’s no saving it.

So Way of X ending with a new proposal of hey "Crucible is wrong" was for me just like, Yes, I already knew that, what I don´t get is why you wrote your characters accepting it when they would never do so IC before but I don´t expect to be given an answer now so I just want to go on and forget about it.

I can’t even start with Way of X. I can’t. There was no reason for that book to exist. *Nothing* came out of it other than an even sillier reason for that place to exist.

I just want to forget about it too, since *nothing* meaningful is coming from that.

As long as things stay civil, it´s not wrong to want to watch. Especially things that do need to be discussed.

But the problem is that I don’t think things can remain civil… People throw “hate speech” and “violence” into the conversation as if they were prepositions nowadays.

It was a little better for me because Mags and Lorna didn´t insult each other but yes, I can´t wait for this story to be over. Honestly.

I know, Lucy, I know. I just want it to be over too.

This whole era. So we can pretend it never happened.

I could see Sinister betraying the X-men to Orchis to be allowed to create Chimeras, not sure what Hellions Sinister is doing.

Does Sinister needs Orchis to allow him to create Chimeras, though?

I think it will depend on the writer and some titles will do better than others, I am looking forward to more Ewing Sword stories and Duggans and I am curious to see what Orlando and Gillen will bring with them. Tino, Leah and Ayala are ok but they are not my favorites, still I wish them the best on their titles, I think they just need to gain more experience and I would love to see Kelly Thompson back on X-men as well as Mike Carey.

I’m honestly too tired to care. I just hope Jean and Scott are somewhat spared of the bad stuff while every book sales around them collapses so we move past this Krakoa era already.

I am counting on it affecting his judgment, Charles is definitely harder on himself and other telepaths than others imo, one of his deepest fears is losing control of himself so him seeing Krakoa Charles with all those mutants under his authority who uses cerebro on his head to amplify his powers 24/7 that would give him Onslaught feels so I could see him attacking him to be safe and ask questions later.

More than Cerebro amplifying his powers, he has a copy of the minds of *every* single damn mutant - including stronger telepaths than him - readily available for him to alter in the event of a death which currently has no meaning whatsoever.

Pre-Krakoa-pre-Moira-X Charles would be horrified with the power he was wielding and the possible consequences.

But it was too cold :P

Oh, my bad. I’ll just use cool (instead of cold) water next time you ask! :P

Ok, I will prepare mine as well in case we effectively see Charles and Erik going all mission impossible on Orchis base.

I’ll wear my highest heels and have this contraption ready just in case:

I like Penguins but my favorites are Polar bears, they are so cute.

Well, if we see a polar bear in Antarctica, I think we’ll have another reason to hate those faulty Krakoan gates. :P

That only close family members are allowed and Magneto didn´t expect to convince the council to let them stay on Krakoa, not that they wanted to stay there either. So I guess it was the best solution to give them refuge on Island M but yes, they need to address the human ban.

The non-racist/speciesist reason is simple: they want to protect the resurrections protocols. If that makes any sense it’s yet another discussion, though.