Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Grinning Soul]

Guys,

I'm so so sorry. I wrote in Jean's thread that I was one meh issue away from giving up comics again. But I realised I was wrong: X-Men #5 has got me there already.

I started writing why here but I decided I don't want to divulge it publicly.

So yeah... in my opinion, the Krakoa era stories have been weak at best, but it was really cool to have those conversations with you and I wish I had the strength to go on because I truly appreciate this space and our discussions. But I just don't have it in me anymore. Time to move on to another hobby.

I do hope you guys get to enjoy the future stories and many other great discussions spring from them.

Thanks for everything and have fun o/


PS: I'll be checking the private messages if you guys want to keep in touch. I'd really like that. Some of you were real friends during a very difficult moment in my life and I'll *always* be grateful for that. But I understand you have your real lives too. So... up to you. Again: thanks for everything.

[Rev9]

Yes Xavier was talking about the succesful assassination of X-force on X-men #4 by Hickman but I am not talking about that, I am talking about HoX #1 in which Magneto engages with the ambassadors instead of Charles because they had reasons to think an agent was send to kill off Xavier, which actually happened. Erik and the Cuckos were there to stop this attempt.





I agree a foreing agent is expect to have weapons but at a diplomacy meeting, this is a reason to end all kind of diplomatic communication unless everyone there has weapons and this was previously agreed by all parties before going, like at this type of meetins even the food eaten needs to be aproved by everyone before engaging in the meeting.

I also agree Xavier was talking about the X-force attempt and Magneto here was mostly showing Krakoa diplomatic stance of keeping close borders, Krakoa will have it´s own culture but will engage economically with the rest of the world once it´s been admited as part of the UN but I agree with you his tone was not conducive to a peaceful end of meeting but given the fact the other ambassadors already thought only in terms of Krakoa being a military menace I think magneto went for the old approach of not engaging with them on equal footing and instead showing them they already knew their standing in relation to Krakoa.



I don´t see things this way, I will explain next:

Magneto of First Class has nothing to do with comics magneto besides the more superficial common ground, like powers and parts of his past imo Fox really didn´t want him as more than the villain of the week and his actions sometimes didn´t made sense. Things got a little better with the second trilogy but even in this they made his main motivations a personal matter, not a political one and comics Magneto definitely has political reasons behind his actions.

Not a lot of people at marvel know about his Jewish heritage, besides his children, Lorna, Wanda and Pietro and old friends like Gabrielle Haller who was also jewish holocaust survivor and who defended him during his two trials, Charles, Moira, Storm, Scott, Wolverine, Rogue and some other X-men, Dr Doom, because he used tecnology to investigate him and Cap America but he doens´t know all the details and still not even all of them know or use his real jewish name and this was done on purpose, because Magneto didn´t want the world to see his actions as a representation of the Jewish people, when he´s doing it as a personal crusade for getting mutants rights. This doesn´t mean he has stoped caring from his jewish heritage, in fact the reason why he accepted to be judged for his actions as Magneto during his first trial was because he didn´t want Mystique´s brotherhood to menace or hurt the other people who were visiting the holocaust musseum, some of which were fellow survivors as well.


Magneto doesn´t use the holocaust as an excuse for his actions at all but the fact it´s part of his story, this event informs his actions in a big way but it´s not all of it,after the holocaust he tried to live a normal human life and even after his daughter was killed, he still went to Israel and tried to live as a normal person there. He didn´t really become "Magneto" until he found out about the papperclip event, in which foreing occidental goverments were using Nazi scientist to get an egde on the Soviet Union, pretty much giving them an out, which just served to prove to him humanity would just keep going on oppresing different groups for their self interest, which made him decide to become Magneto. Now, even as Magneto, his actual mission is not about killing humanity, as Apocalypse would do but about a paternalistic/Authoritasictic view of him trying to put things in order in the world even if he has to use force and making a comparision of humanity behaving like children being willing to hurt and kill each other and that he was just not going to let mutants suffer the same way other groups had suffered in the past and he didn´t really began to change this mentality until he almost killed Kitty and it´s not a coincidence Kitty being jewish moved him to truly try to change.



After this he tried the X-men way for a while but found it didn´t suit him so he became a separatist and he has keep being that to a bigger or less extend until the Krakoa era.

You make plausible points but I find it really hard to believe Magneto's rationale for taking responsibility for his actions 'away' from his Jewish roots is so as not to malign his own people. Most times he blankets humanity as a group beyond hope, that's his difference with Xavier ,his trust in humanity is pretty much gone vis-a-vis mutantdom.So I find that rationale (even if on panel) so hollow that I'm not surprised writers try to avoid this elephant in the room.Despite all the contortions that have to be done to give Magneto a modicum of justification ,they can't land.Anyway it is what it is at this point, it's always what writers want readers to do ,just buy into the narrative no matter how contrived or ridiculous or counterintuitive.

[Lucyinthesky]

Guys,

I'm so so sorry. I wrote in Jean's thread that I was one meh issue away from giving up comics again. But I realised I was wrong: X-Men #5 has got me there already.

I started writing why here but I decided I don't want to divulge it publicly.

So yeah... in my opinion, the Krakoa era stories have been weak at best, but it was really cool to have those conversations with you and I wish I had the strength to go on because I truly appreciate this space and our discussions. But I just don't have it in me anymore. Time to move on to another hobby.

I do hope you guys get to enjoy the future stories and many other great discussions spring from them.

Thanks for everything and have fun o/


PS: I'll be checking the private messages if you guys want to keep in touch. I'd really like that. Some of you were real friends during a very difficult moment in my life and I'll *always* be grateful for that. But I understand you have your real lives too. So... up to you. Again: thanks for everything.

I am very sorry to hear about this Grinning Soul I will be around here if you change your mind or you want to exchange some povs when he advance past this era.

In the mean time, I completely agree with you about the X-men fiasco, like I could have bought Jean wanting to give Lorna a little push towards X-men if we have seen some of their friendship dynamic before hand and Lorna being open on talking her issues with her but the truth is that they have not been friends in years and her "changing" Lorna´s words made no sense at all, Jean would have asked Lorna first for her reasons to change her mind and maybe convince her to give it a chance, not just arbitrarily changing her words and I don´t think it´s fair this oc moment that was used also to take agency from Lorna as well as a way to cheat Lorna fans from knowing more about her motivations besides the coffe was really bad as much as I have liked Duggan´s writting on Uncanny Avengers, his X-men work has just not been as good and I don´t know what to say anymore.

Hope you have a great week

[Lucyinthesky]

You make plausible points but I find it really hard to believe Magneto's rationale for taking responsibility for his actions 'away' from his Jewish roots is so as not to malign his own people. Most times he blankets humanity as a group beyond hope, that's his difference with Xavier ,his trust in humanity is pretty much gone vis-a-vis mutantdom.So I find that rationale (even if on panel) so hollow that I'm not surprised writers try to avoid this elephant in the room.Despite all the contortions that have to be done to give Magneto a modicum of justification ,they can't land.Anyway it is what it is at this point, it's always what writers want readers to do ,just buy into the narrative no matter how contrived or ridiculous or counterintuitive.

I would say he blankets human institutions more than humanity itself as he said on the scan from his trial and also his orgin story when he breaks links with "control" , the spy agency in which he was working as a nazi hunter, to begin his personal crusade for mutants. His problem is with the goverments of the world and their way of dealing with issues, not so much the individuals, the problem are the lengths to which he´s going to go on his personal crusade, his methods, which were the reason for his fight with Xavier and the X-men. His crusade has already cost him part of his links to his jewish heritage, there was an interesting story from the 90´s in which Sabra, a super hero from Israel, was send to assessinate him as punishment for his actions after part of his real name was discovered, so some stories have been done to addres this situation if briefly and not much has been done with it since then, certainly Claremont and Cullen Bunn tried but other than them, is just not explored. You make a good point that marvel could do more to address this with the character inside universe but besides the holocaust,marvel doesn´t really bother to explore his jewish identity further than that or ries to explore how being a german jewish from WWII colors his perception of the world and it´s a great shame because it´s a fascinating story still left to be told.

Also I don´t think any of the current writers, besides maybe Ewing or Duggan, would be willing to tell a story like this, I would love to read it and I have some ideas about Magneto´s personal pov when it comes to his Jewish heritage but until marvel starts writting him as a jewish character outside his holocaust background, I don´t think we will see much material for him on this front.

In the mean time I will treasure small moments like this one, I didn´t always like Cullen Bunn´s take on Magneto but this one moment was so good



Rev, I will add my answer to the Magneto thread if you want to keep add more answers

[Grinning Soul]

I am very sorry to hear about this Grinning Soul I will be around here if you change your mind or you want to exchange some povs when he advance past this era.

In the mean time, I completely agree with you about the X-men fiasco, like I could have bought Jean wanting to give Lorna a little push towards X-men if we have seen some of their friendship dynamic before hand and Lorna being open on talking her issues with her but the truth is that they have not been friends in years and her "changing" Lorna´s words made no sense at all, Jean would have asked Lorna first for her reasons to change her mind and maybe convince her to give it a chance, not just arbitrarily changing her words and I don´t think it´s fair this oc moment that was used also to take agency from Lorna as well as a way to cheat Lorna fans from knowing more about her motivations besides the coffe was really bad as much as I have liked Duggan´s writting on Uncanny Avengers, his X-men work has just not been as good and I don´t know what to say anymore.

Hope you have a great week :)

What the heck, maybe I can share my last thoughts here while this issue is still the newest one of the series... Here we go.

Character regression for no reason bothers me.

Jean is passionate and sometimes she acts on instinct or impulse. Sometimes it's not a good thing, sometimes it's even violent. I get that. It's one of her many paradoxical traits that I love, actually.

If the scene had been written as Jean acting on impulse, because she had connected telepathically with Lorna so she could give her speech and Jean saw/read/felt that Lorna really wanted to be part of the team but backed away… If Jean was feeling euphoric because of re-forming the group and the mutant celebration and the fact they were about to terraform a planet… If Jean really wanted Lorna to join the group because she thought Lorna should’ve joined the X-Men a long time ago and because Lorna would benefit from the experience… Yes, I could see Jean acting on this impulse.

If she was still a 20-something years old.

But she’s not. Maturity-wise, she’s supposed to be in her 40s. She should know better, she should have better control over her own crazy emotions. And she *used* to have.

Still, people make mistakes even when they’re much older, even when they’re acting with the best intentions at heart. I could have lived with that, actually.

But realising you made a mistake and owning up to it is part of being an adult. Part of being mature.

Did we see Jean apologising, though? Nope. Why? Because it was not written as a mistake, as an well-intentioned impulsive act… It was written as Jean *deliberately* using her telepathy to *force* Lorna to do something she wouldn’t otherwise because of her belief that it would be good for Lorna. That’s the very definition of the “end justifies the means” and it’s *not* the MO of heroes, it’s their last resort. And *that* is why it’s OOC for her in my opinion.

Because what would have happened if Jean had *not* done it? What would be the worst consequence? Lorna would have 1 year to think about it and try again next year? She would have had the chance to get to the point of *choosing* to go for what she wants on her own? Would that be so bad for her? That's part of life and growing up.

I’m not sure I’m being clear here. But to illustrate my point, I’d suggest you watch the episode Prime Factors (season 1, episode 9) of Star Trek: Voyager. It deals with these conflicts between morality, duty and tough choices. It’s masterful. And more importantly it highlights *when* such conflicts make the story better, *when* they apply.

Actually, now that I’m thinking about it… if you haven’t watched the series, don’t watch the episode. It will spoil it because you won’t be invested on those characters yet. But if you have watched the series already, the episode is worth-watching again. :)

[Rev9]

What the heck, maybe I can share my last thoughts here while this issue is still the newest one of the series... Here we go.

Character regression for no reason bothers me.

Jean is passionate and sometimes she acts on instinct or impulse. Sometimes it's not a good thing, sometimes it's even violent. I get that. It's one of her many paradoxical traits that I love, actually.

If the scene had been written as Jean acting on impulse, because she had connected telepathically with Lorna so she could give her speech and Jean saw/read/felt that Lorna really wanted to be part of the team but backed away… If Jean was feeling euphoric because of re-forming the group and the mutant celebration and the fact they were about to terraform a planet… If Jean really wanted Lorna to join the group because she thought Lorna should’ve joined the X-Men a long time ago and because Lorna would benefit from the experience… Yes, I could see Jean acting on this impulse.

If she was still a 20-something years old.

But she’s not. Maturity-wise, she’s supposed to be in her 40s. She should know better, she should have better control over her own crazy emotions. And she *used* to have.

Still, people make mistakes even when they’re much older, even when they’re acting with the best intentions at heart. I could have lived with that, actually.

But realising you made a mistake and owning up to it is part of being an adult. Part of being mature.

Did we see Jean apologising, though? Nope. Why? Because it was not written as a mistake, as an well-intentioned impulsive act… It was written as Jean *deliberately* using her telepathy to *force* Lorna to do something she wouldn’t otherwise because of her belief that it would be good for Lorna. That’s the very definition of the “end justifies the means” and it’s *not* the MO of heroes, it’s their last resort. And *that* is why it’s OOC for her in my opinion.

Because what would have happened if Jean had *not* done it? What would be the worst consequence? Lorna would have 1 year to think about it and try again next year? She would have had the chance to get to the point of *choosing* to go for what she wants on her own? Would that be so bad for her? That's part of life and growing up.

I’m not sure I’m being clear here. But to illustrate my point, I’d suggest you watch the episode Prime Factors (season 1, episode 9) of Star Trek: Voyager. It deals with these conflicts between morality, duty and tough choices. It’s masterful. And more importantly it highlights *when* such conflicts make the story better, *when* they apply.

Actually, now that I’m thinking about it… if you haven’t watched the series, don’t watch the episode. It will spoil it because you won’t be invested on those characters yet. But if you have watched the series already, the episode is worth-watching again.

Well said, I'm bothered by Jean's dialogue as well, what is the context of her flipping Lorna's 'speech switch' like that? It's bizzare because as you put it the vote will be an annual event going forward and as a telepath she is mature speaking to a mature person with her own individual fears and reservations. It's not articulated why Polaris hesitated, but are we supposed to believe at this level she was confused like some giddy teen? Pfft like way to cheapen a character as a standalone individual after building her up in ToM...I find this shocking actually. Without saying it outright, the picture is Jean tinkers with thoughts because she is the one who knows what decision is the 'right' one in anyone's head.Smh

[Grinning Soul]

Well said, I'm bothered by Jean's dialogue as well, what is the context of her flipping Lorna's 'speech switch' like that? It's bizzare because as you put it the vote will be an annual event going forward and as a telepath she is mature speaking to a mature person with her own individual fears and reservations. It's not articulated why Polaris hesitated, but are we supposed to believe at this level she was confused like some giddy teen? Pfft like way to cheapen a character as a standalone individual after building her up in ToM...I find this shocking actually. Without saying it outright, the picture is Jean tinkers with thoughts because she is the one who knows what decision is the 'right' one in anyone's head.Smh

Even if Jean was absolutely certain that was the best possible outcome for Lorna, it doesn't change the fact that she *forced* Lorna to say that. And what was so pressing here that a *hero* didn't see any other option but to interfere? Lorna would "lose" 1 year of her life? Well, that's part of learning. Besides, those people are suppose to live forever. What is 1 year for them?

PS: your inbox is full again.

[Rev9]

Even if Jean was absolutely certain that was the best possible outcome for Lorna, it doesn't change the fact that she *forced* Lorna to say that. And what was so pressing here that a *hero* didn't see any other option but to interfere? Lorna would "lose" 1 year of her life? Well, that's part of learning. Besides, those people are suppose to live forever. What is 1 year for them?

PS: your inbox is full again.

Exactly ,so Lorna is hesitant? Why not let her decide for herself and be ready ,when she actually feels ready..a year is nothing in their reality now.

Anyway I freed up some space in my inbox

[Grinning Soul]

Exactly ,so Lorna is hesitant? Why not let her decide for herself and be ready ,when she actually feels ready..a year is nothing in their reality now.

Anyway I freed up some space in my inbox

I can't justify it, Rev. In my opinion, it's completely out of character. The way I see it, every other piece of Jean's "dubious" telepathic usage that people can post are false equivalents. But if I say that, people accuse me of being a stan who wants Jean to be perfect. It's pointless.

So I'll just leave it at it: in my personal opinion, it's out of character. And this is exactly what I was afraid of when I saw how Duggan handled Jean's power usage with Jaime and Deadpool.

Time to move on.

[Rev9]

I can't justify it, Rev. In my opinion, it's completely out of character. The way I see it, every other piece of Jean's "dubious" telepathic usage that people can post are false equivalents. But if I say that, people accuse me of being a stan who wants Jean to be perfect. It's pointless.

So I'll just leave it at it: in my personal opinion, it's out of character. And this is exactly what I was afraid of when I saw how Duggan handled Jean's power usage with Jaime and Deadpool.

Time to move on.

Well for me as you know my reservations with telepathy, I am not shocked as I kind of expect this to be in the repertoire ,but it's still jarring because this is such a petty case(I expect Jean to resort to this in very extraordinary circumstances even if I don't condone it) that it makes the character come across no better than Emma imo.

[Grinning Soul]

Well for me as you know my reservations with telepathy, I am not shocked as I kind of expect this to be in the repertoire ,but it's still jarring because this is such a petty case(I expect Jean to resort to this in very extraordinary circumstances even if I don't condone it) that it makes the character come across no better than Emma imo.

Yes. That's Emma's MO. And I don't say that in a judgemental way, but purely the neutral analysis of the character. Emma is all about "the ends justifies the means" and, to her credit, she's usually right.

But Jean is *not* like that. And she doesn't need to be like that to be interesting. She's nuanced and complex enough while still being a hero and choosing to do the ethical and the moral thing unless she believes she has no other choice. That's what makes heroes interesting: the struggle to do the "right thing".

And the regret when they realize they made a mistake.

[Rev9]

Yes. That's Emma's MO. And I don't say that in a judgemental way, but purely the neutral analysis of the character. Emma is all about "the ends justifies the means" and, to her credit, she's usually right.

But Jean is *not* like that. And she doesn't need to be like that to be interesting. She's nuanced and complex enough while still being a hero and choosing to do the ethical and the moral thing unless she believes she has no other choice. That's what makes heroes interesting: the struggle to do the "right thing".

And the regret when they realize they made a mistake.

Some responder on the thread of X-Men 5 I think, mentioned that this keeps and will keep happening because telepaths are 'law unto themselves' ..there is never any penalty for this kind of crossing of ethical lines.Once the self restraint barrier among the 'best' of them is breached then there's just no 'code' to abide by..which is a scary prospect. If I were a writer I'd create a caveat in the power itself, that as seductive as compulsion or mind pushing may be, overindulging in this creates 'psychic entanglement' ,pieces of the mind you control cross into your own mind and lead to either mild memory lapses, to severe mental fracturing bordering on Legion territory.I think this would be a bridge too far for some writers, but I see no other way.

[Grinning Soul]

Some responder on the thread of X-Men 5 I think, mentioned that this keeps and will keep happening because telepaths are 'law unto themselves' ..there is never any penalty for this kind of crossing of ethical lines.Once the self restraint barrier among the 'best' of them is breached then there's just no 'code' to abide by..which is a scary prospect.

It all boils down to the idea that heroes can't be interesting, isn't it?

That's why writers aren't writing *any* of those characters as heroes anymore. All of them are anti-heroes and fans like it because they share this belief.

Heroes are my favourites, but I appreciate anti-heroes too. I think they enhance and challenge both the heroes *and* the stories.

Again: that episode illustrate it very well. There's a really tough choice to be made and different characters choose different things. You can understand all of them and none of them is portrayed as perfect. It's awesome and it proves the story only benefits when the characters are distinct, have different levels of sense of morality, ethics, duty, selfishness etc...

[Rev9]

It all boils down to the idea that heroes can't be interesting, isn't it?

That's why writers aren't writing *any* of those characters as heroes anymore. All of them are anti-heroes and fans like it because they share this belief.

Heroes are my favourites, but I appreciate anti-heroes too. I think they enhance and challenge both the heroes *and* the stories.

Again: that episode illustrate it very well. There's a really tough choice to be made and different characters choose different things. You can understand all of them and none of them is portrayed as perfect. It's awesome and it proves the story only benefits when the characters are distinct, have different levels of sense of morality, ethics, duty, selfishness etc...

I think you are over the target in general.In our world today selling a purely altruistic character is difficult, not for me because for example I really enjoyed MoS and BvS as films where I could see a level of complexity in Kal el's choice ,doing heroic stuff despite human fear of his power getting him criticised in the media as well as earning some enemies.His struggle with outward expectation or fear of being misunderstood which was organic because he wanted to fit in, but he accepted his alien heritage and all that came with it. Anyway this isn't the thread to get into that but for whatever reason a lot of viewers took issue with him killing the last of his race ,as if there was another 'better' way on the one hand and on the other feeling like the character was too pensive and reserved instead of being charismatic and outspoken .I feel like this plays out in characters of 'superherodom' more and more.Like to have power , leaves little room for restraint, humility or magnanimity. Once powers are given to a character they have to be showcased to make the character come across as cool or whatever.. even if that use of power may cross some lines.Maybe that is why the line between hero and anti hero is being blurred since using powers to show off or for personal benefit isn't in 'hero' category. Having said that in this case whatever Jean did is hollow, it is not heroic at all? What are the stakes to make it seem like Krakoa was in peril if Polaris didn't make the team? There was absolutely no reason for Jean to do what she did imo which makes me think that the writers just wanted Jean to come across as cool with very little payoff ,quite the opposite actually.

[Grinning Soul]

I think you are over the target in general.In our world today selling a purely altruistic character is difficult, not for me because for example I really enjoyed MoS and BvS as films where I could see a level of complexity in Kal el's choice ,doing heroic stuff despite human fear of his power getting him criticised in the media as well as earning some enemies.His struggle with outward expectation or fear of being misunderstood which was organic because he wanted to fit in, but he accepted his alien heritage and all that came with it. Anyway this isn't the thread to get into that but for whatever reason a lot of viewers took issue with him killing the last of his race ,as if there was another 'better' way on the one hand and on the other feeling like the character was too pensive and reserved instead of being charismatic and outspoken .I feel like this plays out in characters of 'superherodom' more and more.Like to have power , leaves little room for restraint, humility or magnanimity. Once powers are given to a character they have to be showcased to make the character come across as cool or whatever.. even if that use of power may cross some lines.Maybe that is why the line between hero and anti hero is being blurred since using powers to show off or for personal benefit isn't in 'hero' category. Having said that in this case whatever Jean did is hollow, it is not heroic at all? What are the stakes to make it seem like Krakoa was in peril if Polaris didn't make the team? There was absolutely no reason for Jean to do what she did imo which makes me think that the writers just wanted Jean to come across as cool with very little payoff ,quite the opposite actually.

Your post shows exactly what I'm talking about.

Heroes don't need to be purely altruistic. Heroes are at their best when they feel tempted, yet choose to do the right thing. They are at their worst when they fail to do so. But heroes at their worst can be great stories too!

The point is that those stories will only be great if the hero is an actual hero. If they were tempted, if they made a mistake, if they chose to do the wrong thing in a moment of selfishness or fragility. An anti-hero doesn't care, or cares but shrugs it off. A hero does care, they feel bad about themselves, they don't give themselves excuses or if they do, they eventually realise it and apologise and try to redeem themselves.

Heroes can and should be interesting. But it's like both writers can fans can't really see it that way anymore.